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Dr. Mechano

Dr. Eggman's Good Deeds

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2 hours ago, Austroid said:

There was that episode Hedgehog Hunt, where he threatens Team Sonic and the Chaotix about a Metarex fleet surrounding the planet they're hiding on. Only to use his own Egg Crimson disguised as the Blue Typhoon to take the fall for them. This even gets his lackeys frustrated; why does he wants to both destroy and protect Sonic? He never even brings this up in future episodes to wipe in their faces or anything. Who does that?

The Eggman does.

Yeah, I loved episode 71. I'm honestly shocked I forgot to list it in my original post, because of all the Sonic X episodes, that one is the "starring Eggman" story. It focuses on Eggman as the central character and revolves around his internal conflict and his decision to ultimately come to Sonic's aid. 

And the way they do it, with Eggman helping Sonic while still overtly acting as his enemy the entire time, was beautiful. I also love the somber little bit at the end, when an injured Eggman - shrugging off a massive ship crash with little more than a busted arm - orders a drink from Vector's bar, and the two of them share a knowing moment as Vector plays a soothing piano melody and Eggman takes a drink. 

2 hours ago, Austroid said:

(It always bugged me how Sonic AND Vector kind of knew about this, but never told anyone else; unless it was a dub thing.)

Nah, that was true even in the original. The episode even ends with Sonic quietly saying "Thank you, Dr. Eggman" as his crewmates remain oblivious that Eggman helped them.

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Another one came to mind today:

AoStH - Robotnik abandons his evil plot to save his Fuzzy Wuzzy

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In "Mama Robotnik's Birthday," it's revealed that as a child, young Ivo had a robot bear named Fuzzy Wuzzy, who he genuinely loved and adored. He cherished this bear dearly, and - when Sonic electrifies it - Robotnik breaks down in tears, begging the hedgehog to spare his childhood friend.

Sonic mulls it over, then agrees on the condition that Robotnik "promises to be good," which he does instantly, without a second thought. Mama Robotnik - disgusted at the idea of her son agreeing to be good, thwaps him in the head before being carted back to the home. The episode ends with Robotnik and Fuzzy Wuzzy reunited - with Robotnik being quite relieved that his nightmare of a mother is finally gone. 

What I like about this is that it's one of the few examples of AoStH Robotnik - a character defined by his unabashed love of rrrrrottenness and evil - actually caring enough for someone else to beg. Enough to hurriedly agree to put his evil plans aside for the moment to save them. Even in other episodes that depict him showing some sort of affection to someone else - like "Best Hedgehog" where he has a one-sided crush on Lucinda - it's usually depicted as self-serving in some way. But here, Robotnik truly cares for Fuzzy Wuzzy and shows actual empathy for their pain, crying desperately for Sonic to save him.

Guess even this Ivo has a heart deep down.

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Not so much a good deed but in Sonic Riders Zero Gravity when you achieve an extreme rank during the mission mode Eggman tends to really praise Sonic and his friends. Here are a couple to show what I mean.

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I think it really shows that despite being enemies Eggman has a ton of respect and admiration for Sonic and his friends.

Here's a link to all of the missions. http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Simulator#Heroes_Story

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To be honest, Eggman should have a bodycount well within that of any serious terrorist. He's shown no problem with mass murder and antics like unleashing his robot army on the world should have gotten a hardcore death toll.

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12 hours ago, Almar said:

To be honest, Eggman should have a bodycount well within that of any serious terrorist. He's shown no problem with mass murder and antics like unleashing his robot army on the world should have gotten a hardcore death toll.

Yes, but that isn't the point of this thread. There's more than enough discussion going on about how Eggman isn't "menacing" or "evil" these days, as if the balloon-shaped Teddy Roosevelt caricature in the old days was such an amoral monster. I think threads like this offer a different perspective on Eggman as a fully developed character. Rather than just a malicious one-note villain, he has depth and some sort of moral code that he follows. 

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Sonic is a kids series. When you see stuff like Chaos destroying a city or Eggman splitting up the planet, I don't think you're meant to interpret those incidents as having a death toll. It's true that lives have been put on stake from time to time like the bombing of Station Square or the ARK's collision course to earth, but the point is that they were successfully averted and characters can move on with their lives and focus on the next adventure, because a lot of series such as Sonic aren't concerned with the off-screen repercussions of the villains' actions. Death only really occurs when it's plot-relevant like in Maria's case; as far as the image of Eggman is concerned he's not a murderer (even if he's an attempted one like in SA2 where he tried to kill Sonic lol).

EDIT: I know that people are going to respond to me accusing me of saying death doesn't belong in a children's series like the last time this happened which I'm not advocating at all. I'm saying that death should be taken seriously in kids' media and used only when relevant, and the creators should not depict droves of citizens being slaughtered on-screen or implied off-screen. Murder is not a part of Eggman's character and never has been, he's just a goofy cartoon villain who isn't supposed to be condemned for implied crimes that aren't relevant to his actions or the story or tone.

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1 hour ago, Sean said:

Sonic is a kids series. When you see stuff like Chaos destroying a city or Eggman splitting up the planet, I don't think you're meant to interpret those incidents as having a death toll. It's true that lives have been put on stake from time to time like the bombing of Station Square or the ARK's collision course to earth, but the point is that they were successfully averted and characters can move on with their lives and focus on the next adventure, because a lot of series such as Sonic aren't concerned with the off-screen repercussions of the villains' actions. Death only really occurs when it's plot-relevant like in Maria's case; as far as the image of Eggman is concerned he's not a murderer (even if he's an attempted one like in SA2 where he tried to kill Sonic lol).

EDIT: I know that people are going to respond to me accusing me of saying death doesn't belong in a children's series like the last time this happened which I'm not advocating at all. I'm saying that death should be taken seriously in kids' media and used only when relevant, and the creators should not depict droves of citizens being slaughtered on-screen or implied off-screen. Murder is not a part of Eggman's character and never has been, he's just a goofy cartoon villain who isn't supposed to be condemned for implied crimes that aren't relevant to his actions or the story or tone.

I generally agree with you are saying. What matters is character contextual and in the game right?

However, the series itself keeps bringing it up. Like the last 3d mainline game was like " eggman took over everything and had some goon murder the shit out of people its really bad everything's bad " And the comic right now entire plot is hinging on whether or not a murder should have occurred.

I find myself agreeing with what you are saying...mostly. There are some aspects where the devastation is supposed to mater long term usually in reference to a character. Silvers screwed up future, shadow feeling bad because the arc , and sa2 and aliens stuff. Character motivating stuff. Canon in sonic particularly nowadays is based around characters themselves rather than a series of events. But generally you don't think about knuckles essentially trying to murder sonic and tails. You aren't supposed to think about it that hard

I just find it funny that the series at random intervals goes " No but think about it harder though " Just reading a random comic " Think about this harder than you ever wanted to think about it right now. This whole next year is gonna make you think about this. By the way these characters are gonna go on a fun, clean, harmless  japan adventure with mario characters in November buy that shit "

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Given Eggman's personality I think it's believable that, while he's not exactly going around killing randos, he isn't going to care much about someone else is doing it. Especially if they work for him. Complete world destruction is his one line and even that's been crossed somewhat lately.

This sort of thing isn't really talked about in the games though, so yeah I agree they just don't want you to think about it. 99% of the time the characters are angry at him for much less morbid things, so it works.

 

I remember being all for exploring Eggman's softer side after SA2's ending, but I wasn't really a fan of how X went about it. I mostly just wanted to see his admiration for Gerald-before-losing-it to be expanded on, though I think something else could work too.

As far as the games go I think they kinda missed a big opportunity for it, once '06 firmly re-established him as a villain again after him seemingly being on "hiatus" in the previous two games. (I liked to think the airships were already in construction and he was still unsure of what to do next after SA2. Even the Shadow Androids felt like something he made on a whim rather than having an actual plan for them.) Like, obviously he was always going to go back to being the big bad, but I think that would have been a good time for him to have a little arc where he actually has some doubts while other villains take over for a while.

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19 hours ago, Almar said:

To be honest, Eggman should have a bodycount well within that of any serious terrorist. He's shown no problem with mass murder and antics like unleashing his robot army on the world should have gotten a hardcore death toll.

Eh, those sort of scenes are more about striking fear by having the bad guy and his forces move in like they own the place.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

 

However, the series itself keeps bringing it up. Like the last 3d mainline game was like " eggman took over everything and had some goon murder the shit out of people its really bad everything's bad " And the comic right now entire plot is hinging on whether or not a murder should have occurred.

Didn't you get the memo?

 

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I am kind of surprised that outside of Celestia's post briefly touching upon it, no one mentioned the ending to Sonic Adventure 2. I suppose it makes sense, because it comes when Eggman has arguably been at his most evil by trying to murder Sonic, and holding the planet itself hostage, as well as holding Amy up at gunpoint.

Coming off him working with the heroes in order to save the planet itself from Gerald Robotnik's machinations, even despite his actions earlier in the story, the ending provides a pretty nice humanising moment for Eggman. He's looking out towards the planet below as he happily reminisces about how much of an influence Gerald really was on Eggman, Eggman warmly describes all of the accomplishments he achieved, before admitting that Gerald Robotnik was his hero, and he is the only reason why Eggman went down the path of science and inventing.

Even for SA2's relatively cheesy voice acting (not helped by Tails' goofy lines right after), it's a sobering moment to hear the bombastic egotistical Eggman who usually delights in making as much mischief as he possibly can fondly remember the person he looked up to most. I also like how it shifts from Eggman's warm remembrance, before he sadly questions if Gerald truly, and intentionally wanted to kill them all, that Eggman's hero, the guy who brought so many advancements to the world and made so many achievements was truly hell-bent on utterly obliterating everything that he once tried to build, and destroy the world he once tried to help.

It really comes off as Eggman having a hard time dealing with Gerald's fall into total insanity. It's very clear that Gerald's intention was to have the Biolizard and/or Shadow destroy the planet to avenge Maria's death, and yet the best Eggman can really get is questioning if it was his true intention or not, maybe trying to keep the hope alive that his hero wasn't a fallen idol at that point. And even at that, when Tails comes out with the cheesy line about them achieving this world save by working together, Eggman doesn't try to get egotistical to claim it was him, or swear he'll win next time, he just calmly agrees with Tails.

I really kind of wish we could've gotten to see this expanded more. Get an idea of how Eggman went from admiring Gerald Robotnik's achievements and the great things he did for the world, to the evil doctor we know today who has no issue holding innocent people hostage for power, or killing his adversary in a blaze of glory. It feels like there's a missing piece to the puzzle, for lack of a better term.

Like, you would think G.U.N's killing of Maria, and imprisonment would've set Eggman off down this path, especially since it would explain why Eggman specifically wants power, having had his family personally wronged by the current heads of power. 

I also really like how in general, Eggman didn't just try to immediately escape. He stood in the ARK with the heroes, sharing his feelings, and doesn't once try to antagonise them. It's just nice to see a moment where Eggman gets to talk with his enemies, and have a moment of peace between the two groups, despite the events that occurred throughout the game.  

But, for what it is, I think it's an interesting prospective that came off one of Eggman's good deeds (even if the problem was unintentionally created by himself). 

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10 minutes ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

Like, you would think G.U.N's killing of Maria, and imprisonment would've set Eggman off down this path, especially since it would explain why Eggman specifically wants power, having had his family personally wronged by the current heads of power. 

 

that's my headcanon

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People didn't really bring it up because it's not a "selfless deed"...it is a tender moment and he definitely didn't have to say all that stuff, but it doesn't really help anyone for the sake of it.

I mean...if this series had any kind of continuing story, let us say that Tails could use this information to confront Eggman at his lowest moment (emotionally) which what makes Eggman tread the path of turning over a new leaf. It would be selfless in that sense because in helping the heroes understand him personally, it would eventually lead to good doings.

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5 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

People didn't really bring it up because it's not a "selfless deed"...it is a tender moment and he definitely didn't have to say all that stuff, but it doesn't really help anyone for the sake of it.

I mean...if this series had any kind of continuing story, let us say that Tails could use this information to confront Eggman at his lowest moment (emotionally) which what makes Eggman tread the path of turning over a new leaf. It would be selfless in that sense because in helping the heroes understand him personally, it would eventually lead to good doings.

Well, the point of the topic OP also states the following: 

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Share your opinions! Do you like stories that show some of Eggman's nicer side? Do you prefer takes on him that are just evil without any redeeming qualities? Maybe somewhere in the middle?

What I mentioned still taps into Eggman's nicer/kinder side, where even after the world has been saved after his scheme went completely haywire, and he could've easily just ran for it and swore revenge next time, he stayed, kept up a truce, and shared a deeper side to himself.

For all of the evil Eggman commits in Sonic Adventure 2, I don't think anyone could really argue that the ending where he discusses Gerald and the connection he had to his grandfather isn't an example of his nicer side, or at least a more human side.

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For me there is no missing piece. Eggman admires his grandfather for the fame, glory, and technical prowess of his achievements. He doesn't care for his achievements as a humanitarian and might even be ignorsnt as to why that matters. Hehas no feelings whatsoever about Maria's murder. 

Eggman wishes to achieve Geralds acclaim but is completely ignorant of why he really got there as he doesn't care for the well being of others. There could be a variety of reasons as far as why this could be or how he got there, but it doesn't really matter how to me. 

So in general the idea Eggman is an egotistical dick and almost every instance of him being nice in the main canon has the side effect of serving his interests. He cannot rule the planet if there's nothing left to rule. He cannot proceed in Lost World without Sonic and Tails in shape to fight the Deadly Six.

And I prefer him that way. In other canons where Eggman is portrayed as a softie it clashes with the severity of his actions for me. There's nothing wrong with imaguning him in that way and there can even be a lot of fun in imagining him as just some lonely old man at heart. I'm all good with the premise of this topic and the points made in it, but it's not for me. To me he's best when he's just comical levels of egotistical and self serving. 

Not every character is a facts sheet that needs a tragic backstory that explains the actions now in a perfect feedback loop. On top of that I'm kinda tired of stuff like daddy issues used to explain away atrocities anyway. Sometimes people are just dicks, and that's fine.

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20 minutes ago, Wraith said:

For me there is no missing piece. Eggman admires his grandfather for the fame, glory, and technical prowess of his achievements. He doesn't care for his achievements as a humanitarian and might even be ignorsnt as to why that matters. Hehas no feelings whatsoever about Maria's murder. 

In Shadow the Hedgehog, Eggman is disgusted at the thought of his hero selling out his colleagues just for scientific achievement.

"That can't be! He betrayed his own people for research?! For Black Doom?!"

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Eggman is revolted by Gerald's apparent lack of humanity and honor here. He's not like, "Ha ha, that's my grandpa! Willing to achieve scientific progress even if it kills people! What a lovable old rascal!" He's shocked and horrified by the reveal that - even before Maria's death drove him insane - his childhood hero may have been a self-centered, manipulative monster after all. (Of course, once it's revealed that Gerald built the Eclipse Cannon to stop Black Doom, the game immediately cuts to Eggman, who is relieved that yes - Gerald actually was a good guy prior to snapping after all.)

As much as I honestly hate this game, I feel like it does clarify Eggman's feelings toward his grandfather. Yes, he absolutely looked up to him for his scientific brilliance, but it's clear that he also saw him as a fundamentally upstanding and good person; And when that image of him was shaken, he felt betrayed.

We see this in Sonic Adventure 2 as well. "As a child, I looked up to my grandfather for all the great things he accomplished in his life. He was my hero, and I wanted to be a great scientist like him. But... Did he really mean to destroy us?"

Again, Eggman had to wrestle with Gerald not living up to the idealistic vision he always had of him. I think it's clear that Eggman wanted to think of Gerald as a good man, and that it was very difficult for him to confront his grandfather's darker side.

 

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 On top of that I'm kinda tired of stuff like daddy issues used to explain away atrocities anyway. Sometimes people are just dicks, and that's fine.

I don't think it'd really be "daddy issues" here anyway. More having a legitimate grievance with the actual corruption within the government that resulted in members of his own family - including his childhood hero - being unjustly murdered.

Honestly it's hard to imagine that not factoring into Eggman thinking he can do a better job running the world than the current powers that be, but that's just me.

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15 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

In Shadow the Hedgehog, Eggman is disgusted at the thought of his hero selling out his colleagues just for scientific achievement.

"That can't be! He betrayed his own people for research?! For Black Doom?!"

mAYcJ4Y.png

Eggman is revolted by Gerald's apparent lack of humanity and honor here. He's not like, "Ha ha, that's my grandpa! Willing to achieve scientific progress even if it kills people! What a lovable old rascal!" He's shocked and horrified by the reveal that - even before Maria's death drove him insane - his childhood hero may have been a self-centered, manipulative monster after all. (Of course, once it's revealed that Gerald built the Eclipse Cannon to stop Black Doom, the game immediately cuts to Eggman, who is relieved that yes - Gerald actually was a good guy prior to snapping after all.)

As much as I honestly hate this game, I feel like it does clarify Eggman's feelings toward his grandfather. Yes, he absolutely looked up to him for his scientific brilliance, but it's clear that he also saw him as a fundamentally upstanding and good person; And when that image of him was shaken, he felt betrayed.

We see this in Sonic Adventure 2 as well. "As a child, I looked up to my grandfather for all the great things he accomplished in his life. He was my hero, and I wanted to be a great scientist like him. But... Did he really mean to destroy us?"

Again, Eggman had to wrestle with Gerald not living up to the idealistic vision he always had of him. I think it's clear that Eggman wanted to think of Gerald as a good man, and that it was very difficult for him to confront his grandfather's darker side.

Okay but why is Eggman completely neglecting to mention his "research" was for his sick granddaughter? Why does he sidestep the Maria subject entirely? 

It's like he doesn't actually consider the human element of it all. That's why I say he just doesn't get it at the end of the day. 

And notice in that quote he emphasises accomplishments over what those accomplishments meant for others. The technical side if his achievements meant more to him than anything else. 

Eggman might have some baseline issues with Gerald's honor after hearing he betrayed his people, but that would make him, at best, a hypocrite. I don't want to hear this from the guy who tried to nuke a city off a tantrum. 

If he does have morals they aren't consistent. That's a perfectly valid way to write someone who's kind of a dick. 

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23 hours ago, Almar said:

To be honest, Eggman should have a bodycount well within that of any serious terrorist. He's shown no problem with mass murder and antics like unleashing his robot army on the world should have gotten a hardcore death toll.

Just engage with media for adults, please

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On 10/14/2019 at 6:24 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

 

Share your opinions! Do you like stories that show some of Eggman's nicer side? Do you prefer takes on him that are just evil without any redeeming qualities? Maybe somewhere in the middle?

This prompt was brought to my attention lately and I decided it might be a decent point for myself to talk.

I suppose I have grown to appreciate how maniacal he can be in the last decade. However, generally speaking, I love Eggman as a villain who has such bombastic. whimsical, and sometimes respectable air about him. Mind you, I started out with Sonic X and Heroes like a lot of people over the Adventure games. But that's not to say I can't  get down with his more diabolical actions or portrayals.

In fact, I've been fine with both iterations of his Archie counterpart and by extension his SatAM iteration. While I obviously respect them as their own things, I do legitimately enjoy them. His occasionally festive attitude as he ruins people's lives and having characters like Naugus, Snively, and the Egg Bosses around for him to contend with are a major factor in why I loved those comics. And for what it's worth, his sneakily dark enterprises in games like Colors and Lost World were somewhat intriguing aspects of those stories on top of reasonable invokements of a similar undertone.

 

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I think a lot of these inconsistencies in Eggman's portrayal can simply be chalked up to the fact that Sonic Team keeps changing its writing staff and probably has a very bare-bones lore book they follow. The general idea that Eggman is a conniving villain with a softer side or some sense of 'manners' is portrayed well enough in most iterations of the character, save for the Western interpretations where he's by and large a heartless monster (with AoStH being the goofier exception). 

I don't think Eggman needs a complex backstory to explain his villainous leanings, but it's definitely something that's fun to speculate about. I like to think he's simply a genius where, on a stat slider, most of the allotted points were placed towards scientific, robotic and militaristic sensibilities and there were very few left for social or moral sensibilities. He's definitely selfish, but he's under the impression that he's the best thing for the world and he can convince the rest of the world to follow his leadership, if only he could somehow get them to see the light. Either through negotiations... or through means of robotic mind control. But that's just me.

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