Had Sega Not Dropped Out

[Wraith]

I'm not sure why this conversation is so IP focused now when that wasn't the point of the OP.

I'll just be blunt and say that I would not care if NiGHTS, JSR, etc. Were dead if new original IPs were in their place. The thing I miss about Sega doesn't have to do at all with which IPs theyre reheating this week, but originality. They're boring to me now because theyre safe. I don't care if it makes the most financial sense because I'm not an exec, investor or someone who works there. I tend to take my money where boundaries are being pushed and Sega ain't it. Hasn't been it for a long time .

And honestly even if I was a Sega superfan I'd be feeling pretty put out by remasters and safe sequels. I even got bored with Sonic Mania relatively quickly and that's something that's actually made for me. Good for you if you're into that kind of thing but I'm very much over this whole remake/remaster/iterative sequel era we're in with gaming. 

I also find it condescending as hell when they ask me to buy remasters to prove that there's support for a new thing, but that's another discussion.

I dont even really care for the alternate history stuff myself but I'm for the timeline where sega just pulled their head out of their asses and gives their artists the time and money to do what they do best. That could have started at any time, but instead they continue to chase artists away.

[Tracker_TD]

I probably would've let the Dreamcast nostalgia love-in happen (because "alternate timeline discussion" or not, I feel like that was the only real aim of this topic - it just didn't happen because we're on a Sonic board, I'm one of the most vocal not-just-Sonic SEGA fans here so I was one of the few that chose to weigh in, and I don't even like the Dreamcast that much so instead the dismissive attitude towards what original IP SEGA actually does have and continues to use was what caught my attention). I'm not letting nonsense like "Yakuza is just GTA" slide. Or even "SEGA don't care about their IP, which is why they let actually talented studios like LizardCube make spiritual successors, something they didn't do with JSR years before." Again, it's not about whether you like the games not - I don't like Valkyria. I might not even like Yakuza 7 and its genre shift, for all I know. It's about brushing it all off with increasingly flimsy reasoning and clearly demonstrating you don't have a real grasp on what these series are, because it's not specifically Jet Set Radio or SA3, things you do have a grasp on because you grew up with them. And things which wouldn't even necessarily be good themselves, even if this timeline of yours had happened. I mean I can say "man it sure would be nice if we had Fighting Vipers 3". Like... it would. But I don't need a topic or wall of text IRL fanfic to do that. And that's not even tied to nostalgia, because I didn't get to play Vipers until the Saturn had been dead for like, 15 years.  

This topic probably would've been better as a showcase thing, for "hey look at my extremely cool hypothetical hardware drawings", as opposed to the old "SEGA haven't made [specific title], therefore they suck as a whole because my tastes are truly what matter, and in a parallel universe where capitalism wasn't a thing all my specific dreams could've happened" stuff that I already got worn out from after dealing with Sonic Adventure fanboys on that one Facebook page years ago. Or dealing with people who's sole focus on the SEGA AGES line is just the safe stuff like Sonic, and brushing off the actual wins for preservation like Ichidant-R.  

Now step back and drink a Pepsi. It's what Pepsiman would want. And he was in Fighting Vipers, so he must be right. 

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'll just be blunt and say that I would not care if NiGHTS, JSR, etc. Were dead if new original IPs were in their place."

That's fine. It just kind of forgets that SEGA's IP portfolio right now... has plenty to fill that void. In fact I listed half of them at least twice on Page 1. Again, whether you like them or not, that's fine, maybe you don't. But they're not just licensed game city, are they? 

Perhaps you mean spiritual successors to those games specifically, but at that point you might as well just play it straight and say "bring back NiGHTS". Which is also fine, but doesn't need to come at the expense of Yakuza, Puyo, Sakura Wars, Virtual On, House of the Dead, etc etc. 

[Wraith]

9 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

. 

That's fine. It just kind of forgets that SEGA's IP portfolio right now... has plenty to fill that void. In fact I listed half of them at least twice on Page 1. Again, whether you like them or not, that's fine, maybe you don't. But they're not just licensed game city, are they? 

Perhaps you mean spiritual successors to those games specifically, but at that point you might as well just play it straight and say "bring back NiGHTS". Which is also fine, but doesn't need to come at the expense of Yakuza, Puyo, Sakura Wars, Virtual On, House of the Dead, etc etc. 

 

I'll respond to you when you start arguing with points I've actually made and not just put words in people's mouths like you've been doing all thread.

[Tracker_TD]

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 

I'll respond to you when you start arguing with points I've actually made and not just put words in people's mouths like you've been doing all thread.

...all I did was quote you saying 'SEGA should have IPs in the place of these others' and say "they do, and here's examples". Like unless I've read you wrong there, there's nothing to get so sour about.

 The second part was less towards you and more towards the idea that these franchises are inexplicably "more SEGA" than what we have now instead, just because "they are" - based on impressions that seem to come from not much more than a cursory glance. 

[Sean]

Yakuza is the only IP of Sega I see them treating with anything resembling respect. I even like Valkyria Chronicles and they really botched that series in that patented Sega way, by keeping one of the two PSP-only games exclusive in Japan, trying to reboot the series with disastrous results, and then making a fourth game which is literally just the first game all over again with different faces. Yakuza has managed to succeed Shenmue but I don't see Sega replacing Nights or JSR with anything, or coming out with new, unique IPs. They're a pretty boring company, honestly.

[Wraith]

26 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

...all I did was quote you saying 'SEGA should have IPs in the place of these others' and say "they do, and here's examples". Like unless I've read you wrong there, there's nothing to get so sour about.

 

We established earlier in the discussion that sega is safer now in terms of output. I said it's boring and I don't like it. You gestured to said modern roster that I was just complaining about and insinuated I haven't tried it and I just want it to go away in favor of IPs I like instead. I never said that and don't feel that way. If NiGHTS and JSR were given low budget remasters and sequels I'd be a bit annoyed with that too.

Your second point was my main point of contention since I never used more or less sega as a qualifier for anything and never implied that the new games had to go, but we can let that go if it wasn't your intention.

Overall I'm annoyed with your tone implying I've never given their new games a glance. 

[Plasme]

I think this thread is also a little bit idealistic about how SEGA used to be in the Dreamcast days, If you go back and play the original Jet Set Radio, it's very flawed and almost unplayable. Jet Set Radio wasn't really excellent until JSRF, which came out on the Xbox. I love Shenmue, but it was already woefully behind on story presentation and especially voice acting when it came out (Metal Gear Solid had come out the year before). And like JSR, Shenmue 2, which is far superior to the original, received its definitive version on the Xbox. The Sonic Adventure games were also really flawed even for the time, as is testament in contemporary reviews and my own memories for playing them at the time.

The Dreamcast was also a terrible console in hardware, with VMU's which were more irritating in practice with their dreadful battery life than they were neat in theory. The console was also really flimsy and was prone to breaking. My DC was on the way out only a year after I bought it.

And SEGA has had loads of strong brands over the last decade or so: Total War, Bayonetta, Football Manager, Super Monkey Ball just to name some other series which haven't been brought up,  The SEGA All Stars spinoffs have been pretty great too. i actually do understand your point about it not being the same as back in the DC days, but you can't deny they are strong titles either.

[azoo]

I went and talked about some things I didn’t know as much about. My bad. Though also I went there because the argument basically became “if you don’t know everything I’m talking about and respect it you don’t have room to argue”, so yeah.

The topic was about what different timelines would’ve been like for Sega if they didn’t go down the path they did in ours. But if there’s not much discussion to be had in that (especially beyond cynicism, or saying I or anyone is blinded by nostalgia to feel any different than okay with what we got) then you can close it if you want. I’m down to discuss it still, though.

[Tracker_TD]

11 minutes ago, Sean said:

Yakuza is the only IP of Sega I see them treating with anything resembling respect. I even like Valkyria Chronicles and they really botched that series in that patented Sega way, by keeping one of the two PSP-only games exclusive in Japan, trying to reboot the series with disastrous results, and then making a fourth game which is literally just the first game all over again with different faces. Yakuza has managed to succeed Shenmue but I don't see Sega replacing Nights or JSR with anything, or coming out with new, unique IPs. They're a pretty boring company, honestly.

I disagree. You evidently have more experience with Valkyria than I do, so yeah, I totally believe you there. But as I mentioned previously - bringing back House of the Dead for a proper, not reboot sequel wasn't boring to me (and I really like what I've played of Scarlet Dawn, too). Neither is bringing back Sakura Wars, let alone finally localising it. Or even PSO2 - as absolutely crap as it was for them to take so long to actually bring it over, I'm surprised they're actually trying with the MMO market now, and promising parity with the Japanese version to boot.

For all I know Sakura Wars could suck (though I really hope it doesn't...), but they're giving it another chance with a gameplay retool that's arguably more befitting of being in giant mechs, and I'm down for that. It doesn't strike me as safe. Even Monkey Ball is giving me at least some kind of confidence - as much as a misfire remaking BB was, the dev team seem to want to use this as a springboard into making new stuff, and gauging feedback on stuff like level editors, or SMBDX remakes, and what have you. All through Twitter - it's made for refreshing reading compared to the Sonic Twitter at least, as it at least feels more involved than that one poll with a Chao Garden on it due to how they've kept up with actual posts from the devs themselves. 

I dunno. Maybe it's more of an on principle thing - even as crap as you say Valkyria has become, that's not to say bringing back NiGHTS would instantly be a winning formula either. While I can kind of get along with Journey of Dreams nowadays because I've come to realise the actual NiGHTS bits are a pretty good continuation of the original's gameplay, it wasn't what most were looking for. And as beloved as JSR apparently is, I equally see it cited as one of the more divisive DC games due to its controls. And having played PSO... I can admire the IP, but I did not particularly like what I played.

SEGA aren't perfect now, I can't say they are. But it wasn't all the sunshine and rainbows on the DC either, and I feel my issue here was romanticising that era so much.  

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I haven't tried it and I just want it to go away in favor of IPs I like instead.

Nah, I didn't want to insinuate that. I'm not sure if you have played Yakuza or any of these other franchises - I was taking issue with Azoo, who's generic GTA comparison clearly illustrated to me that he hadn't. Or if he had, hadn't for longer than 5 minutes. And his timelines all seemed to go pears up at some point anyway, so I got the impression it was more geared towards a timeline that secured those series he liked in the short term, at the expense of stuff that we have now like Yakuza that took a longer term to be established.

It's my bad with the second part of that reply - I should've split those points up better. I'll definitely take the L there. 

[Tornado]

6 hours ago, Wraith said:

We established earlier in the discussion that sega is safer now in terms of output. I said it's boring and I don't like it.

It needs to be put in context that the reason Sega was so experimental and innovative and downright weird was because they already knew going into it that the Dreamcast was their last chance; so they were able to throw ludicrous amounts of money at things like Shenmue that would never turn a profit. I've heard conflicting things about whether Sega ever expected to follow-up the Dreamcast (the book Service Games went so far as to paint the picture that Sega knew it was doomed in the long run before they even finalized the design, and merely did it to try to make things up for people who owned Saturns and go out on a high note after the Bandai merger collapsed) and things like the Chairman of your parent company giving you 700 million dollars and canceling all debts owed to him goes a long way.

 

 

A company that actually has to exist long term doesn't have that luxury.

[azoo]

Nintendo has. And so has Sony with their arthousey experiments they’ve thrown money behind occasionally. 

Sure, you can make note that Nintendo’s tower of IPs/experiments is the exception to the norm or that Sony can afford it. But that was kind of the point I was making: what if they could continue to? And where would’ve it gone if it survived? And what would’ve been the best turn of events to get there?

It could’ve been great for them. Could’ve been awful. And the one I started off the thread with was just one pitch of many.

 It’s a hypothetical I find worth discussing, despite the cynicism and discourse this (admittedly sore) subject seems to start. I like to think of if Sega were still what Wraith or Sean had expressed.

And sure, all hope is not lost for the present . And maybe the best answer to this question is to smell the roses and accept the harrowing truth of Sega’s own incompetence. But what’s the fun in that?

So. To steer the convo.

What if Sega and Sony got hitched on that day SoA staff shown the board at Japan about the PlayStation? What could've panned out? 

[Plasme]

5 minutes ago, azoo said:

So. To steer the convo.

What if Sega and Sony got hitched on that day SoA staff shown the board at Japan about the PlayStation? What could've panned out? 

I still think SEGA's library would have changed as it did though. The change in the market affected Sony as well, the PS1 library is very different to the PS2, as with PS3 and PS4.

Would titles like Jet Set Radio have been made during the Xbox 360 generation even if SEGA had been successful, because honestly I doubt it.

[Tornado]

4 hours ago, azoo said:

Nintendo has.

Nintendo has never been in the financial situation Sega has. Even the notorious back to back disasters of the N64 and Gamecube were profitable for Nintendo, and not until the Wii U did Nintendo have anything comparable to the failures that Sega had for most of its attempts at consoles. But Nintendo still completely controlled the handheld market by then, having already driven Sony out of it; and had spent the previous five years amassing a humongous war chest.

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And so has Sony with their arthousey experiments they’ve thrown money behind occasionally.

Sony has virtually controlled the console portion of the videogame industry for all but 3 of the last 25 years.