Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[Greg the Fancat]

Sonic Adventure 1 wasn't 2D, and all races and creeds loved that.

It's just that a 2D Sonic game described as "a return to Sonic's roots" sounds awfully like SEGA's mentality for this game is that they've decided to become a scared kid who's tried to go out and play on his own in the 3D world, but is now deciding to wuss out, throw in the towel, and go back home to Mummy and Daddy Retro on Two Dimension Street because the scary 3D gamer kids keep calling him names.

:/

After so much disappointment, it was good for SEGA to go back to a formula that worked. Granted yes, that Sonic Adventure was great, but as it is this looks fantastic, even for a trailer made up mostly of special effects and words.

[Flint]

Well can you really blame them after time and time again of disappointment?

Nah, but tastes are subjective and one person's disappointment is one person's cause for the rekindling of his love for the series (or something akin to that).

It's just daft really that the fandom is getting what they've whined for ages and boom, they're up in arms about it.

The world needs to be in a bigger hugbox.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Flint

[Toby]

I'm going to laugh SO HARD if this game turns out to be the biggest pile of shit SEGA ever made. XD

[Greg the Fancat]

I'm going to laugh SO HARD if this game turns out to be the biggest pile of shit SEGA ever made. XD

If it does, then I'll be coming down on SEGA. HARD.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well in the case with Sonic, 2D is a step back in the sense that since he's been doing so badly in his 3D games, rather than try to fix them they're just going back to what worked for them previously, like with Mega Man and Castlevania. Not like with how Mario is releasing good 3D games and decides to throw some 2D games like New Super Mario Bros out there from time to time.

But the big difference is that Sonic isn't likely to give up on 3D. He's been doing 2D games during his time in 3D, so what would change that now?

Even so, they could use this time to really develop a good 3D game. And hopefully not add content that conflicts with Sonic's style of play and isn't optional. I like the werehog for what it was in Unleashed, but that doesn't excuse that the game has opposing styles that could've been better off with one good style, or better yet two styles that COMPLEMENT each other.

\

I'll tell you exactly why.

People think a game must be "innovative" in order for something to move forward.

Yes, because being innovative makes it stand out more and keeps it fresh. That is of course if it's done right.

I wouldn't call ShTH, Sonic 06, and Unleashed's werehog "innovative" in that regard.

That's OBVIOUSLY not the case for Sonic, because Sonic has been "innovative" since Sonic Adventure. Look at his friggen history -- ALWAYS trying something new.

The only difference is rather than do something that ADDS to his current style, he has something that CONFLICTS with it instead. As was the case with the Werehog in Unleashed.

With Sonic's speed, agility, combat potential, and physics, there's many ways that he can expand on that alone.

Some games, like Street Fighter, just benefit from STAYING TRUE to their formula!

Yes, but Sonic isn't anywhere near the same as Street Fighter. Sonic resides in a genre that over time needs new approaches to keep the life going, and can't get away with the stuff that fighting games like Street Fighter can. So that's a really bad comparison.

Sonic works in 2D, end of story. Thank you, SEGA.

...AND Sonic can work in 3D, end of story.

Edited September 9, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[FeathersMcGraw]

On the subject of the game itself, I wonder what sort of music we can expect to hear (and who will be composing?)?, it'd be nice to hear some classic themed stuff with the benefit of actual instruments (or at least samples) rather than the chiptunes of old, or maybe they should keep them?

Edited September 9, 2009 by FeathersMcGraw

[SuperLink]

Nah, but tastes are subjective and one person's disappointment is one person's cause for the rekindling of his love for the series (or something akin to that).

I agree since I love Unleashed and it gave me new levels of hope for Sonic's future, however I can understand why the majority are being negative about a series like Sonic.

It's just daft really that the fandom is getting what they've whined for ages and boom, they're up in arms about it.

I dunno, I've never seen much "go back to roots" whining here on SSMB, just everywhere else on the internet/outside the Sonic community. Those same people seem to be (funnily enough) throwing hats into the sky at the announcement.

I'm going to laugh SO HARD if this game turns out to be the biggest pile of shit SEGA ever made. XD

This sounds stupid, but I'd be happy in some ways if it was (also I can see it happening).

If it turned out like crap, any argument based on Sonic returning to his roots could be swiftly ended with "They did that, it was worse than all the 3D Sonics combined".

The deadly silence following would be utter bliss I tell you =v=

[PaddyFancy]

If it does, then I'll be coming down on SEGA. HARD.

No. Sega listening to the fans, and if it is shit, then the fault is down to the fans. I'll be looking forward to whatever outcome.

[SykoTech]

Eh, I don't think Toby's post was that bad. He's not trying to steer people away or say/hope it will suck. Just some dark humor.

But enough about people. I must say, if those renders of GHZ are real I will be disappointed. I would have preferred for it to be sprited. Not because of classic fanyboyism or anything, it's just that hasn't been done on console games period. I do like the unique take on the level though. It's a step up from just recycling the same old GHZ like Brawl did...

[Tyranno]

Sonic Adventure 1 wasn't 2D, and all races and creeds loved that.

It's just that a 2D Sonic game described as "a return to Sonic's roots" sounds awfully like SEGA's mentality for this game is that they've decided to become a scared kid who's tried to go out and play on his own in the 3D world, but is now deciding to wuss out, throw in the towel, and go back home to Mummy and Daddy Retro on Two Dimension Street because the scary 3D gamer kids keep calling him names.

:/

and if that's true? who do we have to blame for that mentality?

No one but ourselves.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

After so much disappointment, it was good for SEGA to go back to a formula that worked. Granted yes, that Sonic Adventure was great, but as it is this looks fantastic, even for a trailer made up mostly of special effects and words.

I concur that the Genesis games were the best thing evaaaar, but SEGA didn't programme them 2D because 2D is good. 2D is the crippled, arthritic grandfather of 3D. You used 2D in 1991 because you didn't have the technology to use 3D. Now that science has marched on and 3D games can be made, making a 2D game for sixth generation (seventh? I forget which one we're on now) consoles smells like clueless straw-clutching and pandering.

In the interview, this Ballough chap essentially said "We've listened to the retro fans and here's a game for them". Unfortunatly, as we all know, while a singular Sonic fan is often an intelligent, erudite person with rich and well-considered gaming preferences, topped by a wholesome love for the world's greatest ever videogaming icon... Sonic fans plural are stupid, whiny creatures who, divided as they are by nigh irreconcilable differences, couldn't agree about what makes the series "good" if the perfect Sonic game kicked them in the genitils - even if you're only looking at the "retro bloc". So listening to fans plural is the LAST thing Sega should ever want to do.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Phos]

No. Sega listening to the fans, and if it is shit, then the fault is down to the fans. I'll be looking forward to whatever outcome.

So, trying and failing to replicate a winning formula means it's not your fault, it's the fault of the people who recommended the winning formula in the first place?

[speedfreak]

Wow, there is never a time where there isn't a new Sonic game on the horizon. Every time one is nearing release another is announced. Oh well, I hope it lives up to the classics.....or at least lets me be Super Sonic when ever I want after getting the emeralds.

[Badnik Zero]

I don't think the game should be looked at in terms of progress or not. This is something fans have wanted for a long time.

Sega's finally gonna give us that classic styled game, and we'll find out if it was stupid to ask for it in time. Don't think of it as giving up on 3D. Some people think the Adventures were perfect, this is just going back a little farther than that. It's still Sonic, people.

We were talking about how maybe there was a message in this Burtonesque concept art last night. When I look at the large piece of land, I see "sexi" (not a word) spelled out. The first slightly bent pillar is the S. The pretzel knot thing is a lowercase E. The two crossing ones are the X. And the last straight pillar is either an I or if you count the twisty thing above ground, could be a Y.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Ezra the Badnik

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If it turned out like crap, any argument based on Sonic returning to his roots could be swiftly ended with "They did that, it was worse than all the 3D Sonics combined".

The deadly silence following would be utter bliss I tell you =v=

And that will be the day many have been waiting for. When they can no longer fall back on that "back to the roots" kind of argument. But you can only hope they actually start looking more into it than outright saying the series is over...

But then again, who cares, right?

So, trying and failing to replicate a winning formula means it's not your fault, it's the fault of the people who recommended the winning formula in the first place?

I'd say it goes both ways. The developers for mucking up the formula, and the fans getting proved wrong that it's not always a winner.

Edited September 9, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[PaddyFancy]

So, trying and failing to replicate a winning formula means it's not your fault, it's the fault of the people who recommended the winning formula in the first place?

I know, it's unlikely. On the other hand, it'll lead to more moaning.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Major Ziggy

[FeathersMcGraw]

If it turned out like crap, any argument based on Sonic returning to his roots could be swiftly ended with "They did that, it was worse than all the 3D Sonics combined".

The deadly silence following would be utter bliss I tell you =v=

To be honest if it turns out shit people will probably just say "Go back to the classics but do it right this time" rather than having some form of enlightening effigy, I doubt it will automatically make them more receptive of the 3D games.

Edited September 9, 2009 by FeathersMcGraw

[Nepenthe]

People think a game must be "innovative" in order for something to move forward.

Proper innovation can help in increasing the potential, longevity, and execution of older genres. Hell, it was innovation that helped bore Sonic in the first place. You said that as if there's something wrong with innovation when, well, there isn't; It's as neutral a concept as sticking to your guns. Execution is always key. After all, you'd be ice-skating with Satan before you convinced me that Sonic Genesis is better than Unleashed simply because one was a port of a tried and true formula.

That's OBVIOUSLY not the case for Sonic, because Sonic has been "innovative" since Sonic Adventure. Look at his friggen history -- ALWAYS trying something new.

I wouldn't really call genre roulette innovation, especially when Heroes, Shadow, and Black Knight are the only three entries out of eight that tried to actually meld their gimmick into the default gameplay. Regardless, I don't find anything wrong with the Adventure style because, surprisingly, it's been done well before.

Really, I don't give a shit what Sonic Team does at this point so long as I have fun. I've found that being excessively picky about things such as dimension or color palette or physics engine and even something as silly and superficial as eye color is nothing but exhausting work that yields no result.

Sonic works in 2D, end of story. Thank you, SEGA.

We've been known that Sonic works in 2D; Thank you for reiterating the obvious.

Now how does that solve the problem of making an excellent 3D Sonic game?

And now I see that people are getting distressed with such arguing and attitudes, so I shall put on a more positive aura to save some face. Despite my problem with some mindsets here, the revelation of the actual game itself is slowly igniting that excitement I get with any other Sonic announcement. It's lulling there and will continue to do so until we actually see something, but regardless I'm not cynical about this game's existence. Although, I have to admit that I partly side with Tony; If we see Silver or someone in the winged logo when this thing is fully unveiled, I will bust my sides at the ensuing rage. Apologies, but I just find the prospect hilarious.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Nepenthe

[SykoTech]

Even if the game turned out a dud, I don't think the 2D argument would disappear. The failures of the Sonic Rivals games didn't really change. Okay, they were racing hybrids, but still.

People will just blame Sonic Team for it.

[SuperLink]

But then again, who cares, right?

I care! I argue about it ALL the time, and there's one thing I love more than arguing...

It's WINNING arguments!

I probably shouldn't boast about that though.

To be honest if it turns out shit people will probably just say "Go back to the classics but do it right this time" rather than having some form of enlightening effigy, I doubt it will automatically make them more receptive of the 3D games.

Even then they won't be able to complain about "Sonic-ness" being missing. The GHZ concept is very Sonicy, and if that's in the final (possibly good possibly not) product, then people will no longer be able to fall on the ol' "it's crap because it's in cities instead of Green Hills with overused music!".

Edited September 9, 2009 by SuperLink

[SchemingMinor]

With another Sonic outing, this one bringing back a 2-D style, this makes me wonder if Robotnik will drag that old costume and yellow (Mario ) cape out of the closet for this game? And what about retro Badniks? Will we get them or some to the style to the old retro badniks like in Heroes? Oooooh, the excitement of Robotnik possibilities are killing me.

Also this is making me think the reason why they are doing this is for two reasons:

The outcry of the older fans and critics (Who I might add have money. Money talks when you run a business.)

And the bad image most of the 3-D outings have given to us all. Needless to say the 3-d outings have given critics and fans a bad taste in their mouths. Call it their nostalgia that gets in the way to judgement (aside from the horrendous camera controls and slippery physics *coughHeroescough*)

[SykoTech]

Again, Sonic Rivals. They were 2D and had Green Hill like levels. Gameplay wasn't exactly classic though, but who knows if this will even be?

On the subject of the game itself, I wonder what sort of music we can expect to hear (and who will be composing?)?, it'd be nice to hear some classic themed stuff with the benefit of actual instruments (or at least samples) rather than the chiptunes of old, or maybe they should keep them?

I'm up for a few remixes (not the entire soundtrack, just a few). Just as long as they don't "over-rock" them. I wasn't the biggest fan of the remix Brawl had of Angel Island.

But for the most part, I want a new soundtrack that sounds Classical. New sounds from Jaques, please?

[Diogenes]

I concur that the Genesis games were the best thing evaaaar, but SEGA didn't programme them 2D because 2D is good. 2D is the crippled, arthritic grandfather of 3D. You used 2D in 1991 because you didn't have the technology to use 3D. Now that science has marched on and 3D games can be made, making a 2D game for sixth generation (seventh? I forget which one we're on now) consoles smells like clueless straw-clutching and pandering.

This is a load of shit. 2D isn't innately good, but it isn't innately bad, either (same goes for 3D). Certain things are better suited for one or the other, certain things can only be done in one or the other. This is like saying that only super realistic graphics are any good, that anything else is inferior and was only tolerated because we couldn't do any better back then.

[eXtaticus]

Every time a new game is announced, there's always someone saying it's gonna "make or break" Sonic. Sonic hasn't been made or broken yet, and I highly doubt this is gonna be any different.

Actually, he was "made" by Sonic Adventure, and "broken" by Sonic Heroes - the cycle has happened already.

Yeah, this game is probably going to be a launch title for the Dreamcast 2 *shot*.

[Indigo Rush]

I'd like Jun Senoue, Richard Jaques, Howard Drossin and effing Dreams Come True to work on this game. I want to hear the Sonic 1/2 theme song in glorious HD.

That, or You Can Do Anything. :D

Edited September 9, 2009 by Particle Man