Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[Tyranno]

There's another problem with Phos's argument.

On the very left, you can see that Sonic has run straight up a wall at near full speed, and has gone around an exterior quarter pipe. Then he went into a corckscrew, and is then approaching a loop.

No, he does. He is clearly spinning up that wall. I don't even see how people keep MISSING this. Hell, the spinning sound effect plays at that precise moment where the in game footage actually STARTS.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Wrong. You use it because Sonic Rivals 2 is a racing game, and the key element of a racing game is speed. What applies in one genre does not necessarily apply to another. Sonic Rush Adventure featured a homing attack. How many times did you use it?

Did you just imply that speed is not a key element of a Sonic game unless it's racing?

...

He's called SONIC for a reason, y'know.

[Detective Shadzter]

UK PEGI trailer for anyone interested -

Also AAUK says the SEGA Europe and SEGA of America community teams are taking our thoughts on the game to the higher ups.

http://blogs.sega.com/sonic/2010/02/04/sonic-4-check-out-the-trailer-here/#more-1116

So Sonic 4, with episodic – or should that be “epiSonic” content (™ Gavvie, 2010) on XBL, PSN AND WiiWare which really took people by surprise. See, you should take anything as certain until we confirm it!

It seems people are generally really excited about this – good, so am I! Though there are some concerns naturally, I’m sure Ruby over at SOA will be able to address some directly and I’ll do my best here, but as with all we do in the Community Team we’ll be feeding back to the Big Cheeses (presumably blue cheese in Sonic’s case) about what you guys are thinking. Thats a big part of what we do.

In any case you’ve only seen the briefest of glimpses into the world of Sonic 4 and I’m sure once you see more, with Sonic in full flight a fair few of your concerns will be erased. In the meantime, c’mon – its freaking Sonic 4!

There’ll be more details in the coming weeks.

[Semi-colon e]

"Big Cheeses" lol.

BIG THE CAT AND CHEESE THE CHAO CONFIRMED?!?!?!

AND THEY'RE BOTH CAPS'D AS WELL.

[nUcLeArEnVoY]

Did you just imply that speed is not a key element of a Sonic game unless it's racing?

...

He's called SONIC for a reason, y'know.

Actually, 'Sonic' is a term that is more relevant to the audibility of something than its speed. A Sonic cannon in fiction is not fast at all, but it sure is loud.

Edited February 4, 2010 by nUcLeArEnVoY

[brobotnik]

SPIN DASH.

CAN WE PLEASE MOVE ON NOW. AS A PEOPLE.

[Nepenthe]

Did you just imply that speed is not a key element of a Sonic game unless it's racing?

...

He's called SONIC for a reason, y'know.

I've always agreed with this. If you're going to name a character Sonic, and have his moniker be "The Fastest Thing Alive," and advertise speed since before the first game even came out, and subsequently have different media interpretations that make this superpower excessively apparent and obvious... well, it makes sense for him to be very capable of reaching fast speeds on his own, or at least have speed as as much of a key element of gameplay as platforming and "teh penbawl fizikz."

But that's all I'll say. The release of the trailer has actually put me in 100% alignment with the jollier classic folk, and I don't want to be the cause of yet another classic vs. modern war. xD

[nUcLeArEnVoY]

SPIN DASH.

CAN WE PLEASE MOVE ON NOW. AS A PEOPLE.

Yes, and if you follow the direction of the shading on the grass, you'll notice that it doesn't dip into a direct vertical drop, it slopes. How many times have you rolled along slopes in classic Sonic games? (Hint: more than once)

Problem solved - next complaint, the foliage in the background isn't geometric.

[psikeout]

Actually, 'Sonic' is a term that is more relevant to the audibility of something than its speed. A Sonic cannon in fiction is not fast at all, but it sure is loud.

Haaaah. Nitpicking: A two way street. Look both ways before crossing.

Yeah, the classic games were about being able to go fast, but the only incentive for actually finishing levels in a short amount of time was to get a small point bonus or bragging rights. Going fast is a huge element of classic Sonic, but the primary focus is still beating Eggman, and collecting the Chaos Emeralds.

[UncleChuckTH]

Why episode 1 though? Why not release it in one game, the way all the others were?

I can't say I'm in a position to be skeptical at this point, on the contrary if they can pull this off it will be great.

But it does seem foolish to assume that people will go for multiple purchases in order to play this game, taking the current level of bias against the hedgehog into account.

[Rusty Spy]

Yes, and if you follow the direction of the shading on the grass, you'll notice that it doesn't dip into a direct vertical drop, it slopes. How many times have you rolled along slopes in classic Sonic games? (Hint: more than once)

Problem solved - next complaint, the foliage in the background isn't geometric.

Better yet, the rings are WAY to big asdfsadfhgdag!!11!1!

Why episode 1 though? Why not release it in one game, the way all the others were?

I think this might be a great strategical gaming move. With episodic games, you have more, smaller games, released more frequently for less money. With smaller games, that means less amount of time is spent actually completing the game and more time fine tuning everything to perfection.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Black Spy

[Dreadknux]

Did you just imply that speed is not a key element of a Sonic game unless it's racing?

...

He's called SONIC for a reason, y'know.

I implied that speed is MORE of a key element to a Sonic racing game than a Sonic platforming game. In the former, you're pressured to get to the end of the stage before your opponent, yes? Further, as the HA is the best means of speed in Sonic Rivals 2, players are going to be forced to spam that over and over again just to reach the end, making Phos' point moot. In the latter, you CAN go fast if you want to, but it's not at the cost of rushing your play time to suit the demands of the genre.

I thought that much would be obvious, but apparently not. Honestly, I'm slightly insulted you picked such a pretentious point simply to argue with me.

[redmenace]

I was about to point out the hill-to-loop-to-loop-to-hollowed-out-tree from Angel Island in Sonic 3, myself.

Seriously, speed gimmicks are nothing NEW. They were even WORSE in Adventure/Adv2/Heroes, etc. Nothing quite like the sensation of plodding along slowly, touching a boost pad, ROCKETING through a loop or a set piece that suddenly rips control away from you, and then getting dumped back out into an area where you just plod along again.

Always hated that. And I'm ecstatic that we're moving away from it for a while.

Just today I was trying to count up the number of rings in Seaside Hill and died 20 times in one of those multiple loops (quite nice looking actually, TERRIBLE PHYSICS), trying to stop halfway and go back or trying to go back again. Clipping through solid ground, being propelled to the water, tails having his flying capped at some strange height amongst other weird crap (and yes I know power formation is for this, but I wanted to be sure I got them all). Finally got the hang of it, but until then it drove me insane!

I know this sounds like a broken record, but I think it honestly bears repeating:

We've only seen five seconds of what is presumably beta footage.

I know. But what I was trying to aim was the small detail of uneven ground that the outdoors had in the classics. At the grand scheme of things, it was mostly nothing (Sonic 1 on the other hand, that Marble Zone... jump on the wrong part and eat lava) but it added so much in the end.

But now that I look at the maps... Sonic 1's uneven ground served for something, Sonic 2 was simply there, not much was done with it (hill top has none of the Marble Zone situations), and most uneven ground was gone in S3%K.

And the epiglottis is the small slab of membrane that protects the larynx from any obstructions that could accidentally enter it.

I think you're over analyzing the 3 seconds of pre-development footage. I hate to side with this game but meh, I'm going to try keeping my reservations and hoping for the best. Hell, that might not even be the final running animation.

To be fair with myself... I did say that I don't believe in the Rush 3 thing and that we are probably being unfair with the 4 second footage of the entire zone.

UK PEGI trailer for anyone interested -

Also AAUK says the SEGA Europe and SEGA of America community teams are taking our thoughts on the game to the higher ups.

http://blogs.sega.com/sonic/2010/02/04/sonic-4-check-out-the-trailer-here/#more-1116

TAKE/TONE/LESSEN DOWN THE DUST CLOUDS! TAKE/TONE/LESSEN IT OFF! IT RUINS THE AESTHESICS OF THE GAME! IT'S TOO MUCH! THE ZONE IS VERY PRETTY TO LOOK AT BUT MUCH OF IT IS COVERED IN THAT CLOUD DUST!

[psikeout]

Why episode 1 though? Why not release it in one game, the way all the others were?

I can't say I'm in a position to be skeptical at this point, on the contrary if they can pull this off it will be great.

But it does seem foolish to assume that people will go for multiple purchases in order to play this game, taking the current level of bias against the hedgehog into account.

I think that it doesn't necessarily mean that we'll only be getting fragments of the game. Think about it like this.

If they just called it Sonic 4, and it was a big success, and they wanted to make another, what would they do? Call it Sonic 5? And then Sonic 6? Not only would you be entering Megaman Syndrome, but you'd also be making sequels, and with sequels, people (rightfully) expect a lot of new content, and not just more of the same. However, if you deliver full games in "episode" format, then no one expects any more from the next episode than what was in the previous—They just expect new stages, and maybe new characters, if that.

This is of course being optimistic. We have nothing to indicate that this won't be another partial game, ala Sonic 3. Here's hoping, though.

[nUcLeArEnVoY]

Better yet, the rings are WAY to big asdfsadfhgdag!!11!1!

Yeah, I know, WTF is up with that? I'm boycotting.

Alright, I know I am flip-flopping here more than John Kerry, but I hereby rescind my erstwhile bitchiness and hold my reservations for this game. For one, I hate first levels in Sonic games anyway, for two, well, green eyes ain't worth a damn if what matters is what sucks (gameplay/level design/mechanic - all of which you cannot fully assimilate through three seconds of beta footage).

Edited February 4, 2010 by nUcLeArEnVoY

[Dreadknux]

Hey, nothing wrong with holding out reservations. With all the crap the Sonic series has had lately, that's mighty wise in fact.

People arguing with "NO U!" over a three second clip is what I can't abide.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I thought that much would be obvious, but apparently not. Honestly, I'm slightly insulted you picked such a pretentious point simply to argue with me.

Well obviously I'm just white knighting for Phos.

"O boy, I sho' hope he's sekretly a gurl."

ONWARDS:

I feel compelled to repeat this from Retro, where I expressed fears about the level's apparent LINEARITY, noting that (yes, I know it was only 3 seconds) there were no hints of alternate routes or platforms.

However, some eagle-eyed fellow noted that in the dim murk at the very start, there ARE actually two paths visible, so this whole Mobius srtip section actually comes off a path divergance.

Level design's looking up.

[Tyranno]

You know, the homing attack has its uses beyond simply getting up to speed first blast. It has its platforming uses, and implemented in a classic style game can be used to control one's aerial direction and potentially control movement onto certain platforms or to avoid stage hazards like spikes or bottomless pits. But at the same time there's a danger; you have to master it and use it appropriately to avoid things like overshooting.

[Solid SOAP]

I don't mind the use of the homing attack, I really don't see the problem with it as long as I can hit enemies with the spindash and jump attack and don't need to home in on them to destroy 'em. Also, I'd just like to mention that the logo looks exactly like I hoped/expected it to look, with the added bonus of them actually calling the game Sonic the Hedgehog 4.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Also, a note on the rings: play yourself some Sonic Heroes.

The rings are EASILY as big in relation to Sonic in Heroes as they are in the Noodlemouse trailer. Don't know if it's likewise for other early 3D games, but it's certainly the case in Heroes-land.

[Dr. SEGA Monkey]

Referring to this image....

Also, is it me, or does this Sonic look worse than the Unleashed one, even though the look pretty much identical? It must be the angle.

Hedgehog Engine. Unleashed had very impressive lighting effects which made the models look really good. The lighting in that Sonic 4 pic isn't so impressive.

As for the model arguments....

Does it really matter? The only GLARING difference is the Sonic on the right has his spikes in a mohawk. But both Sonics have spikes that are essentially the same length.

[YoshiUnity]

See? This is the exact shit I was talking about! You 're not actually arguing, you're just trying to make it sound like anyone who doesn't share your view on the subject is retarded for not doing so. I'm sick and tired of this shit.

This game is presumably directed by Iizuka, meaning we'll be using it to cross gaps by attack strings of enemies. But thanks for calling me dense, that was really tactful.

Honestly, I didn't want to argue. I just wanted to post my opinion on the game and the reaction. Nothing really worth a rebuttal. But you want me to argue? Fine!

No matter how you slice it... That was one of the worst reasons I have ever heard to complain about a Sonic game. Worst than the grin or the shade of blue. What does is eyes have to do with gameplay in any way, shape or form? Are you going to play the game or stare into Sonic's face and frown at him? You wonder why people think it's a joke? It's because it's completely irrelevant!

And recently, you posted about this game being for 'Classic' Sonic fans. News flash! Many of us areclassic fans and mixed! (I've been playing Sonic games since 1991, mac!) I don't see anyone else being that critical about it, classic fan or not. They just want a fun game to play, with some of the classic artstyle, optional, and formula in tact. And that's all that's needed, really. Hell, if they just have fun then they would probably be able to passed everything else.

Also, the Rush comment. No matter what strip you post of the footage, what does it matter? It's only around five seconds long anyway. Like I said, it's seems like it's an piece from one of the earlier levels. I don't remember Sonic having to platform consecutively in the earlier levels of the Classic titles, especially the 1st levels. In fact, given the path, the player could run through a good chunk of them.

So they show Sonic running? So what? He's SONIC. He's going to run eventually. I don't see how the game can be classified as under the Rush name of "playing itself" when all we saw was five seconds, possibly shorter.

*Sigh.* Next time I'll know to just post my opinion on the game and move on. I'm not the biggest fan of arguing. So take this how ever you want.

Edited February 4, 2010 by U ♥ YoshiUnity

[Phos]

Sounds like the same thing to me. The eye colour is enough to put you off the game, therefore you are saying the eyes is enough to ruin the game on its own. You do know what you're saying, right?

Why do people keep reading this into my posts? Even when I specifically say that isn't what I think!!

You are the ones who are putting words into my mouth, accusing me of saying that that's enough to ruin the game on it's own. It isn't.

It's a mystery.

Excuse me. I'm an old Sonic fan, and I am verging on the positive on this game, thank you very much. I'm sure there are many people who don't take issue with the colour of Sonic's arse that are in the same position as me, who aren't 14 year old Shadow fanboys. It would do you no favours to broadly paint people who aren't going "OMG LAAAAAAMEZOOOOOR" as immature retards yourself.

I said old fans, and by that I meant that the people who are not liking this game so far are old fans. I did not mean to imply that all old fans aren't liking it. I also made no mention of newer fans' views on the game, so it's rather bothersome that you imply that I did, and I also didn't make any derogatory comments towards anyone, simply request that they stop acting like my position is obviously indefensible, as I would prefer a reasonable rebuttal rather than what I've gotten so far, much of which amounts to textbook flaming.

I'll tell you what I see. I see a small segment of a tiny part of one Act of one Zone, selected purely for the purposes of providing 'something' action-based to fill a teaser trailer. I do not see a complete level map. I do not see anything beyond that tiny segment of level design. And I don't see a compelling argument for auto-pessimists that are looking to slit their wrists because something in a three second clip doesn't do the five million things they request it does.

A little tidbit I forgot to mention before: The first speed gimmick is a rising speed gimmick. The classics had sequential speed gimmicks and they had rising speed gimmicks, but seeing the two together was as rare as hen's teeth. I should have brought this up before, because you see it all the time. Why does this imply that this game's levels will be like Sonic Rush/Rivals? Simply because I find it unlikely that a level designer would use this very Rush-esque thought process here and not do it everywhere else, not to mention how rare convex quarter pipes were in the classics. To my knowledge, they appear in two levels: Stardust Speedway and Hidden Palace Zone (S2 beta version).

Wrong. You use it because Sonic Rivals 2 is a racing game, and the key element of a racing game is speed. What applies in one genre does not necessarily apply to another. Sonic Rush Adventure featured a homing attack. How many times did you use it?

I do it in free play mode as well, it beats holding right for that long. That, and Sonic could barely get enough speed to make it up a concave quarter pipe otherwise.

[Dreadknux]

Well obviously I'm just white knighting for Phos.

"O boy, I sho' hope he's sekretly a gurl."

Ha, sorry about my snap there, I'm getting a bit annoyed at all the pointless bickering in the thread. No harm done I hope. :3

However, some eagle-eyed fellow noted that in the dim murk at the very start, there ARE actually two paths visible, so this whole Mobius srtip section actually comes off a path divergance.

Level design's looking up.

Wow, those crazy kids at Retro find some pretty sweet stuff don't they? Hopefully we'll see more of this level soon.

[redmenace]

Well obviously I'm just white knighting for Phos.

"O boy, I sho' hope he's sekretly a gurl."

ONWARDS:

I feel compelled to repeat this from Retro, where I expressed fears about the level's apparent LINEARITY, noting that (yes, I know it was only 3 seconds) there were no hints of alternate routes or platforms.

However, some eagle-eyed fellow noted that in the dim murk at the very start, there ARE actually two paths visible, so this whole Mobius srtip section actually comes off a path divergance.

Level design's looking up.

And the whole chequered thing on the left, can it be a platform for a higher path I suppose? If that slope at the beginning didn't curve into the corkscrew, a good ammount of speed could have launched Sonic to the top of the loop to continue forwards, missed opportunity :\. The path through the loop goes down, yes? Corkscrew probably leads down to somewhere. If not, I will be very disappointed.

A little tidbit I forgot to mention before: The first speed gimmick is a rising speed gimmick. The classics had sequential speed gimmicks and they had rising speed gimmicks, but seeing the two together was as rare as hen's teeth. I should have brought this up before, because you see it all the time. Why does this imply that this game's levels will be like Sonic Rush/Rivals? Simply because I find it unlikely that a level designer would use this very Rush-esque thought process here and not do it everywhere else, not to mention how rare convex quarter pipes were in the classics. To my knowledge, they appear in two levels: Stardust Speedway and Hidden Palace Zone (S2 beta version).

Fair enough. I understand your point now. There is no consistent slope progression there (for a lack of a better expression). It wouldn't be bad if it had an objective (for example Mushroom Hill has some downards, upwards and vice-versa (but mostly the former) sections, but the objective with those was different level heights.

Edited February 4, 2010 by redmenace