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Sonic the Hedgehog 4

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I just watched a run of chemnical plant zone. Sonic launching from speed gimmick into speed gimmick describes multiple parts of that level.

It''s obvious that the Sonic series stopped being good after Sonic 1. Heavens to Betsey if he ever actually goes fast in a game.

...okay, I think we're done making fun of Phos now.

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You're wrong, all of you. Why haven't we noticed this before.

Take a close look at what you are about to see.

BRILLIANT.png

The resemblance is uncanny.

Well my friends, the truth is obvious. From the hard evidence provided, it's easy to see that Sonic 4, will actually be a remake of "Robotniks Mean Bean Machine".

Discuss.

-Iceman

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Do you seriously think that's what I'm saying? All I'm saying is that the black eyes are better than the green eyes. You are the ones who are putting words into my mouth, accusing me of saying that that's enough to ruin the game on it's own. It isn't.

...To me, making his eyes black would improve my enjoyment of Sonic games.

Sounds like the same thing to me. The eye colour is enough to put you off the game, therefore you are saying the eyes is enough to ruin the game on its own. You do know what you're saying, right?

I couldn't give a rat's arse if you found more enjoyment replacing Sonic with a brown epileptic donkey. Your argument is based on something superficial, something that does not in any way, shape or form affect what is key to a game like Sonic the Hedgehog - gameplay, level design and graphical style.

No, an insignificant thing like eye colour, which would only affect you if you paused the game and stood so close to the TV that your head was on the other side, is not a game-changer. It might be to you, but not to any sane person in the universe. There's a perfectly valid reason why everyone is treating your argument for the complete laughing stock it is.

Look around, who doesn't like the way this is looking so far? Older fans. Who would you expect to like this game? Older fans. Obviously, this game is not what it claims to be.

Excuse me. I'm an old Sonic fan, and I am verging on the positive on this game, thank you very much. I'm sure there are many people who don't take issue with the colour of Sonic's arse that are in the same position as me, who aren't 14 year old Shadow fanboys. It would do you no favours to broadly paint people who aren't going "OMG LAAAAAAMEZOOOOOR" as immature retards yourself.

On the very left, you can see that Sonic has run straight up a wall at near full speed, and has gone around an exterior quarter pipe. Then he went into a corckscrew, and is then approaching a loop. That's a speed gimmick into a speed gimmick into a speed gimmick. That isn't Yasuhara (AKA, what we want) style. That's barely even Rivals style. For all intents and purposes, this game appears to be Sonic Rush, only with less features, and slowed down just because they think that will make classic fans like the game more. But they included the homing attack, so it won't actually matter.

I'll tell you what I see. I see a small segment of a tiny part of one Act of one Zone, selected purely for the purposes of providing 'something' action-based to fill a teaser trailer. I do not see a complete level map. I do not see anything beyond that tiny segment of level design. And I don't see a compelling argument for auto-pessimists that are looking to slit their wrists because something in a three second clip doesn't do the five million things they request it does.

I'm one of the biggest haters of the homing attack around, and I still spam the crap out of it while playing Sonic Rivals 2, a game that this game seems to bear a great resemblance to. Why? Because it takes so long to get anywhere otherwise.

Wrong. You use it because Sonic Rivals 2 is a racing game, and the key element of a racing game is speed. What applies in one genre does not necessarily apply to another. Sonic Rush Adventure featured a homing attack. How many times did you use it?

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Really hoping for Tails and Knuckles to appear as playable characters in this, it does seem odd to make the game that continues on from Sonic 3 & Knuckles only have Sonic as a playable character...though given that it's a downloadable title, I guess it'd be too much to ask for a couple of extra characters to be thrown in...Just, as much as I like/miss Classic Sonic, I miss Classic Tails and Knuckles gameplay just as much.

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...

Do you seriously think that's what I'm saying? All I'm saying is that the black eyes are better than the green eyes. You are the ones who are putting words into my mouth, accusing me of saying that that's enough to ruin the game on it's own. It isn't. It is, however, enough to affect one's enjoyment of it. For me, it would be enough to make me want to buy it just so I could see him officially looking right again.

Now, here's where the problem with your argument comes from: To me, making his eyes black would improve my enjoyment of Sonic games. Whenever I voice this belief, what do I get in response? An endless cavalcade of people telling me how stupid that is.

This is not the game the person you are referring to was presumably talking about. Look around, who doesn't like the way this is looking so far? Older fans. Who would you expect to like this game? Older fans. Obviously, this game is not what it claims to be. I have more. This picture was put together by Sonicandtails, over at Sonic Retro:

FinalNoFix.jpg

On the very left, you can see that Sonic has run straight up a wall at near full speed, and has gone around an exterior quarter pipe. Then he went into a corckscrew, and is then approaching a loop. That's a speed gimmick into a speed gimmick into a speed gimmick. That isn't Yasuhara (AKA, what we want) style. That's barely even Rivals style. For all intents and purposes, this game appears to be Sonic Rush, only with less features, and slowed down just because they think that will make classic fans like the game more. But they included the homing attack, so it won't actually matter. I'm one of the biggest haters of the homing attack around, and I still spam the crap out of it while playing Sonic Rivals 2, a game that this game seems to bear a great resemblance to. Why? Because it takes so long to get anywhere otherwise.

I see the point in bitching about this. I quite see it and I don't like him going up that ramp with no difficulty at the beginning either. About the speed gimmick, speed gimmick, speed gimmick, I was also worried since I saw it on the trailer. Then I went through the emerald hill maps (they were designed by Yasuhara as well, or am I very wrong?) looking for examples of the corkscrew to prove your point and was a bit surprised.

Two speed gimmicks

jru453.jpg

ap91li.jpg

FOUR of them packed together. This one even has corkscrew and loop like in the Sonic 4 video, in a close straight line.

kdk1eo.jpg

This is the most laughable of them all. Straight line :psyduck:

15gt9h0.jpg

Three of them goes straight down for Sonic to have momentum. But your point was it was very speed oriented instead of clever level design (which EHZ has as well, no issues raised over this) was it not? And the slopes just add to that speed. Then I remembered it's the first zone. it's supposed to be more speed based than heavy platform (probably why I don't like them much D:). Maybe we're judging those 4 seconds unfairly comparing to the whole zone, though as a teaser trailer IT IS EXPECTED to be to the objective of the game. So you might be right on the game focusing on speed but from this kind of made me a bit skepticall on the whole... eh... Rush 3 thing. I hate Rush by the way.

I'm still with you on fearing the ramp with no difficulty at the beginning and the homing attack. The bumpy path (at a lack of a better word), which is so characteristic of the outdoor levels (which can be seen in what I linked) of the classics is missing as well, which I fear as well. It didn't do much at a certain speed, but it added charm. I suppose that's what's missing, charm and subtle details. It feels uninspired.

And look at the bottom of the corckskrew, there's a gap, it MUST be a bottomless pit! This game appears to be Heroes but in 2D and no partners! FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU-

And OH NOES! 3 SPEED GIMMICKS IN A ROW!!!! THIS IS MADNESS!

Oh and:

OH-NOES.png?t=1265319642

THAT'S 4 SPEED GIMMICKS!!!! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!!!!!!!

SONIC 2 IS SECRETLY SONIC RUSH!!!!!! *mega-gasp* *faints*

HEYYYYYYY YOU STOLE MY POST! :angry: Should've known to post with only one example.

Edited by redmenace

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Just saw this post and thought I'd reply since the pages are loading slow. I comment on this on the blog:

Regarding the running animation: Here’s something to try. Go and play a Sonic Unleashed level and try walking, or enter a hub and run . You’ll get the same walking animation as seen in the teaser. Right now they are using the same game mechanics and engine as Unleashed. Sonic is ‘made’ to go slow in the teaser and looks rather uncomfortable doing it. Hopefully they will fix this.

Also, is it me, or does this Sonic look worse than the Unleashed one, even though the look pretty much identical? It must be the angle.

I'm assuming they slowed Sonic down in the trailer so that the 3 seconds of gameplay weren't 1.5 seconds.

I think it's the lack of environment, the pose and missing mouth that makes the Sonic 4 model look "worse". At least, in that one instance on the site.

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THAT'S 4 SPEED GIMMICKS!!!! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!!!!!!!

SONIC 2 IS SECRETLY SONIC RUSH!!!!!! *mega-gasp* *faints*

I was about to point out the hill-to-loop-to-loop-to-hollowed-out-tree from Angel Island in Sonic 3, myself.

Seriously, speed gimmicks are nothing NEW. They were even WORSE in Adventure/Adv2/Heroes, etc. Nothing quite like the sensation of plodding along slowly, touching a boost pad, ROCKETING through a loop or a set piece that suddenly rips control away from you, and then getting dumped back out into an area where you just plod along again.

Always hated that. And I'm ecstatic that we're moving away from it for a while.

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I suppose that's what's missing, charm and subtle details. It feels uninspired.

I know this sounds like a broken record, but I think it honestly bears repeating:

We've only seen five seconds of what is presumably beta footage.

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Would it be wrong if I reiterated that we don't know anything about the level design before or after what we were shown in the trailer, thus being "afraid" of how easily Sonic makes it up the ramp is a bit silly? xP

EDIT: I guess it would be wrong. I was late. xD

Edited by Nepenthe

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I see the point in bitching about this. I quite see it and I don't like him going up that ramp with no difficulty at the beginning either. About the speed gimmick, speed gimmick, speed gimmick, I was also worried since I saw it on the trailer. Then I went through the emerald hill maps (they were designed by Yasuhara as well, or am I very wrong?) looking for examples of the corkscrew to prove your point and was a bit surprised.

Two speed gimmicks

jru453.jpg

ap91li.jpg

FOUR of them packed together. This one even has corkscrew and loop like in the Sonic 4 video, in a close straight line.

kdk1eo.jpg

This is the most laughable of them all. Straight line :psyduck:

15gt9h0.jpg

Three of them goes straight down for Sonic to have momentum. But your point was it was very speed oriented instead of clever level design (which EHZ has as well, no issues raised over this) was it not? And the slopes just add to that speed. Then I remembered it's the first zone. it's supposed to be more speed based than heavy platform (probably why I don't like them much D:). Maybe we're judging those 4 seconds unfairly comparing to the whole zone, though as a teaser trailer IT IS EXPECTED to be to the objective of the game. So you might be right on the game focusing on speed but from this kind of made me a bit skepticall on the whole... eh... Rush 3 thing. I hate Rush by the way.

I'm still with you on fearing the ramp with no difficulty at the beginning and the homing attack. The bumpy path (at a lack of a better word), which is so characteristic of the outdoor levels (which can be seen in what I linked) of the classics is missing as well, which I fear as well. It didn't do much at a certain speed, but it added charm. I suppose that's what's missing, charm and subtle details. It feels uninspired.

And the epiglottis is the small slab of membrane that protects the larynx from any obstructions that could accidentally enter it.

I think you're over analyzing the 3 seconds of development footage. I hate to side with this game but meh, I'm going to try keeping my reservations and hope for the best. Hell, that might not even be the final running animation.

Edited by nUcLeArEnVoY

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Tell you what got me really excited for Sonic 4? Simply a continuation of the story arc that Sonic 3/S&K left off with, Sega are extending my childhood, 16 years later. Man I feel so old. :3

Same here S&K being my favorite game hearing it would be a direct continuation just put the icing on the cake. Speaking of story, while I will get this game and enjoy it with, or without this,I'm starting to wonder just how much of a story this game will have. I mean the whole 2D and direct continuation stuff is starting to make me think it'll be like the Genesis games with very little story development,which I was fine with back then when story wasn't that big in games, but nowadays games have become less about gaming and more about story. I'm not asking for fully rendered cutscenes or anything, but a few stills and maby some voice acting(maby something similar to Black Knight)would be nice.

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There's another problem with Phos's argument.

On the very left, you can see that Sonic has run straight up a wall at near full speed, and has gone around an exterior quarter pipe. Then he went into a corckscrew, and is then approaching a loop.

No, he does. He is clearly spinning up that wall. I don't even see how people keep MISSING this. Hell, the spinning sound effect plays at that precise moment where the in game footage actually STARTS.

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Wrong. You use it because Sonic Rivals 2 is a racing game, and the key element of a racing game is speed. What applies in one genre does not necessarily apply to another. Sonic Rush Adventure featured a homing attack. How many times did you use it?

Did you just imply that speed is not a key element of a Sonic game unless it's racing?

...

He's called SONIC for a reason, y'know.

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UK PEGI trailer for anyone interested -

Also AAUK says the SEGA Europe and SEGA of America community teams are taking our thoughts on the game to the higher ups.

http://blogs.sega.com/sonic/2010/02/04/sonic-4-check-out-the-trailer-here/#more-1116

So Sonic 4, with episodic – or should that be “epiSonic” content (™ Gavvie, 2010) on XBL, PSN AND WiiWare which really took people by surprise. See, you should take anything as certain until we confirm it!

It seems people are generally really excited about this – good, so am I! Though there are some concerns naturally, I’m sure Ruby over at SOA will be able to address some directly and I’ll do my best here, but as with all we do in the Community Team we’ll be feeding back to the Big Cheeses (presumably blue cheese in Sonic’s case) about what you guys are thinking. Thats a big part of what we do.

In any case you’ve only seen the briefest of glimpses into the world of Sonic 4 and I’m sure once you see more, with Sonic in full flight a fair few of your concerns will be erased. In the meantime, c’mon – its freaking Sonic 4!

There’ll be more details in the coming weeks.

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Did you just imply that speed is not a key element of a Sonic game unless it's racing?

...

He's called SONIC for a reason, y'know.

Actually, 'Sonic' is a term that is more relevant to the audibility of something than its speed. A Sonic cannon in fiction is not fast at all, but it sure is loud.

Edited by nUcLeArEnVoY

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Did you just imply that speed is not a key element of a Sonic game unless it's racing?

...

He's called SONIC for a reason, y'know.

I've always agreed with this. If you're going to name a character Sonic, and have his moniker be "The Fastest Thing Alive," and advertise speed since before the first game even came out, and subsequently have different media interpretations that make this superpower excessively apparent and obvious... well, it makes sense for him to be very capable of reaching fast speeds on his own, or at least have speed as as much of a key element of gameplay as platforming and "teh penbawl fizikz."

But that's all I'll say. The release of the trailer has actually put me in 100% alignment with the jollier classic folk, and I don't want to be the cause of yet another classic vs. modern war. xD

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k359vd.jpg

SPIN DASH.

CAN WE PLEASE MOVE ON NOW. AS A PEOPLE.

Yes, and if you follow the direction of the shading on the grass, you'll notice that it doesn't dip into a direct vertical drop, it slopes. How many times have you rolled along slopes in classic Sonic games? (Hint: more than once)

Problem solved - next complaint, the foliage in the background isn't geometric.

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Actually, 'Sonic' is a term that is more relevant to the audibility of something than its speed. A Sonic cannon in fiction is not fast at all, but it sure is loud.

Haaaah. Nitpicking: A two way street. Look both ways before crossing.

Yeah, the classic games were about being able to go fast, but the only incentive for actually finishing levels in a short amount of time was to get a small point bonus or bragging rights. Going fast is a huge element of classic Sonic, but the primary focus is still beating Eggman, and collecting the Chaos Emeralds.

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Why episode 1 though? Why not release it in one game, the way all the others were?

I can't say I'm in a position to be skeptical at this point, on the contrary if they can pull this off it will be great.

But it does seem foolish to assume that people will go for multiple purchases in order to play this game, taking the current level of bias against the hedgehog into account.

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Yes, and if you follow the direction of the shading on the grass, you'll notice that it doesn't dip into a direct vertical drop, it slopes. How many times have you rolled along slopes in classic Sonic games? (Hint: more than once)

Problem solved - next complaint, the foliage in the background isn't geometric.

Better yet, the rings are WAY to big asdfsadfhgdag!!11!1!

Why episode 1 though? Why not release it in one game, the way all the others were?

I think this might be a great strategical gaming move. With episodic games, you have more, smaller games, released more frequently for less money. With smaller games, that means less amount of time is spent actually completing the game and more time fine tuning everything to perfection.

Edited by Black Spy

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Did you just imply that speed is not a key element of a Sonic game unless it's racing?

...

He's called SONIC for a reason, y'know.

I implied that speed is MORE of a key element to a Sonic racing game than a Sonic platforming game. In the former, you're pressured to get to the end of the stage before your opponent, yes? Further, as the HA is the best means of speed in Sonic Rivals 2, players are going to be forced to spam that over and over again just to reach the end, making Phos' point moot. In the latter, you CAN go fast if you want to, but it's not at the cost of rushing your play time to suit the demands of the genre.

I thought that much would be obvious, but apparently not. Honestly, I'm slightly insulted you picked such a pretentious point simply to argue with me.

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I was about to point out the hill-to-loop-to-loop-to-hollowed-out-tree from Angel Island in Sonic 3, myself.

Seriously, speed gimmicks are nothing NEW. They were even WORSE in Adventure/Adv2/Heroes, etc. Nothing quite like the sensation of plodding along slowly, touching a boost pad, ROCKETING through a loop or a set piece that suddenly rips control away from you, and then getting dumped back out into an area where you just plod along again.

Always hated that. And I'm ecstatic that we're moving away from it for a while.

Just today I was trying to count up the number of rings in Seaside Hill and died 20 times in one of those multiple loops (quite nice looking actually, TERRIBLE PHYSICS), trying to stop halfway and go back or trying to go back again. Clipping through solid ground, being propelled to the water, tails having his flying capped at some strange height amongst other weird crap (and yes I know power formation is for this, but I wanted to be sure I got them all). Finally got the hang of it, but until then it drove me insane!

I know this sounds like a broken record, but I think it honestly bears repeating:

We've only seen five seconds of what is presumably beta footage.

I know. But what I was trying to aim was the small detail of uneven ground that the outdoors had in the classics. At the grand scheme of things, it was mostly nothing (Sonic 1 on the other hand, that Marble Zone... jump on the wrong part and eat lava) but it added so much in the end.

But now that I look at the maps... Sonic 1's uneven ground served for something, Sonic 2 was simply there, not much was done with it (hill top has none of the Marble Zone situations), and most uneven ground was gone in S3%K.

And the epiglottis is the small slab of membrane that protects the larynx from any obstructions that could accidentally enter it.

I think you're over analyzing the 3 seconds of pre-development footage. I hate to side with this game but meh, I'm going to try keeping my reservations and hoping for the best. Hell, that might not even be the final running animation.

To be fair with myself... I did say that I don't believe in the Rush 3 thing and that we are probably being unfair with the 4 second footage of the entire zone. ;)

UK PEGI trailer for anyone interested -

Also AAUK says the SEGA Europe and SEGA of America community teams are taking our thoughts on the game to the higher ups.

http://blogs.sega.com/sonic/2010/02/04/sonic-4-check-out-the-trailer-here/#more-1116

TAKE/TONE/LESSEN DOWN THE DUST CLOUDS! TAKE/TONE/LESSEN IT OFF! IT RUINS THE AESTHESICS OF THE GAME! IT'S TOO MUCH! THE ZONE IS VERY PRETTY TO LOOK AT BUT MUCH OF IT IS COVERED IN THAT CLOUD DUST!

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