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MetalSkulkBane

Who's Amy Rose?

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Any's in a weird position because of character consolidation and a refusal to change. There are other women characters they could bring into prominence like blaze or rouge who would be much better tactician and more serious characters, but sega's continued desire to not jack shit with either of them unless their government assigned male hedgehog is around allows for those traits to be thrown upon amy even though they may be a bit unfitting in unfitting situations. If I am being honest with myself while i enjoy boom amy, amy being the leader of some army group is kinda weird, not as weird as knuckles, but still kinda weird.

Like at this point they could just get away with rebooting blaze's world to be apart of sonic's so she's around more or like just using rouge in any capcaicty , or even making a new wonder woman esque tough girl you use for these types of situations. But no, they have a very weirdly strict idea of who needs to be prominent , so these things are thrown on amy. There's an argument to be had that part of this is in response of her lack of character or being  a good one until recently , but I think its more than that because even before forces Ian could pull good characterization out of her and boom amy exists and she's kinda perfect. Not a military expert or a combat expert by anymeans and quirky but she's the cooler head.

There's a lot of decisions being made in sonic nowdays that feel like excuses, with amy an excuse not to use other girl characters and consolidate traits that they have into amy even though it doesn't exactly fit. And if i'm being honest character consolidation is happening to a lot of the cast, when the solution to this issue is " get someone to write them better " and not " Pair everything down, use characters less and make them simpler "

I fear as though if there ever is a 3d sonic reboot, something that I think is gonna happen more and more as time goes on, with the mentality sega/sonic team has right now amy might become what people think princess sally is and that's unfortunate. When you could have made a new cool character and had multiple women instead of the one you consolidate all the shit in. Because " she's a known quantity " or whatever justifications they make so they can calculate maximum positive reactions instead of actually fixing the problems they have.

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2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I fear as though if there ever is a 3d sonic reboot, something that I think is gonna happen more and more as time goes on, with the mentality sega/sonic team has right now amy might become what people think princess sally is and that's unfortunate. When you could have made a new cool character and had multiple women instead of the one you consolidate all the shit in. Because " she's a known quantity " or whatever justifications they make so they can calculate maximum positive reactions instead of actually fixing the problems they have.

I get why Amy is used more as she came first so she's better known, but I do wish they'd use Rouge and Blaze more. I'm always impressed with Rouge's debut and it makes me wonder what it'd have been like if she had continued to be used well. They don't even have to be a huge role, seeing Blaze in Black Knight was still cool. I'm not caught up on IDW and it's been awhile since I played Forces so sorry if I missed anything, but for example while a bit predictable wouldn't Rouge make a great scout? She's already had spy experience so this would be an extension of that used for war and have her contribute to the team.

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I don't feel Amy's situation necessitates the use of either Blaze or Rouge in most places.

If we look at her post 06 appearances, she's really not all that prominent to begin with and so, doesn't even get to do much of anything. Her traits feels less obvious because she simply hasn't gotten much focus at all, which is hardly a problem unique to her.

Boom is obviously the outlier here; and given the positive response to her characterization there, it makes sense that universe would kinda dictate where her character goes.

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While on the topic of other female characters, what about poor Cream? She's one of my favorite Sonic characters and it pains me to see her get shafted from not onlu main games like Forces, but also spinoffs like Team Sonic Racing! Her sweet, gentle and polite nature in any situation but willingness to toughen up, go against her own pacifistic ideals and lend a hand in fighting evil or even just helping out in her friends' adventures is something I really miss. I loved having her playable in the Advance games and Heroes. (And even in the 3DS version Rio 2016) She needs more love.

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Some of the things said here have convinced me to amend some of the things I said earlier, in terms of whether there's a choice between being bubbly/energetic and mature, as well as the temper she's been written to have sometimes.

To put it shortly, I don't think being mature and having a sense of fun and energy are mutually-exclusive things. Amy's one of the most optimistic characters in the series (how much of a realist she is TBD); having her be energetic and bubbly and whatnot would be a fairly good way to subtly show it. She can have a good head on her shoulders and also get caught up in the fun, get in a little mischief, whatever.

With the temper...I still don't really like it, tbh, but I guess it could depend on what she's getting upset with. If it's something like another character openly expresses doubt that Sonic could save the day, then it'd be ridiculous imo. But if that's how she reacted to the suggestion that saving the planet was a fruitless cause (think what Shadow says right before her speech to him in SA2), that'd be more understandable. A worse-than-ideal temper doesn't automatically make a character bad; hell, Rei's one of my favorite characters in Sailor Moon, so yeah. Just thought a clarification was in order.

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43 minutes ago, skull902 said:

Some of the things said here have convinced me to amend some of the things I said earlier, in terms of whether there's a choice between being bubbly/energetic and mature, as well as the temper she's been written to have sometimes.

To put it shortly, I don't think being mature and having a sense of fun and energy are mutually-exclusive things. Amy's one of the most optimistic characters in the series (how much of a realist she is TBD); having her be energetic and bubbly and whatnot would be a fairly good way to subtly show it. She can have a good head on her shoulders and also get caught up in the fun, get in a little mischief, whatever.
 

Exactly my point. Just because she's matured a little and gotten over her obsessiveness about her crush, that doesn't mean she has to lose her optimism, bubbliness and childlike wonder. Her temper doesn't need to go completely either. Just tone her more childish aspects down instead of removing them etnirely and bring her mature sides into play without overplaying them all the time. She can be a peppy, cheerful character most of the time while still having enough sensibility to not go completely off the rails. She can be more civil and level-headed but also a little bossy. She can be calm and understanding but still lose her temper and throw a fit from time to time when things go too badly, maybe calming down and apologizing later. Boom Amy seems to be the perfect balance of the two sides of Amy. Lost World and Forces turn her into someone else almost entirely and Heroes/Adventure/X makes her a brat. Boom balances the two sides of her personality into a happy medium composite that really fits the bill for her in most situations.

As for age, I personally don't see her as 12 anymore especially after Sonic became 16. The ages to me aren't really something to be taken that seriously or used as fact for how they should act. This is fiction and the precise ages are just more like outlines for their characters than anything truly defining them, at least to me. Sure acting completetly different from someone their age would be a little off-putting, but I say their attitudes should allude more to their ages than a given number. Sonic was fine as 15 and still fine as 16, but I don't really see how nobody else would age a year while Sonic did. The character developments of most of the characters to me feel like natural progressions over the course of a year or so (with a few stupid exceptions here and there like the cowardly Forces Tails or the Vegeta expy IDW and Boom Shadow and a few that didn't really need further character development from their earlier appearances like Blaze who got enough development early on with additional being icing on the cake).

Plus it's not like people have to age to gain character development either. Amy can still become a little less immature and obsessive without growing up. On the other hand, she doesn't necessarily need to lose her energetic and optimistic charm either. Boom shows that both is possible as composites. Two sides of the same coin. You just have to not overplay one or the other.

Also, it's not like downplaying her obsessive and childish tendencies makes her too much of a bland supportive character either. Downplaying does not mean removing the traits altogether and they can show themselves in certain situations like Boom showed. She can have her immature or childish moments without having her whole character be like that. Even if she keeps a lid on her temper most of the time, she can still lose her cool if things become too much. Her cool headedness and willingness to calm down or cheer everyone up might also lead her to becoming a little bossy or overbearing as a consequence.

Plus her new compassionate and caring nature might also lead her to become too trusting of people and things that are a threat to her. Now that Knuckles isn't as gullible anymore, having Amy as the naive one who wants to give everyone a chance seems like a good idea. (Personally though, I'd give that last flaw to Cream considering she's meant to be the pure-hearted ray of sunshine who loves everyone and is loved by everyone, but still naive to the dangers of the world. I really miss Cream.)

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The thing with Amy is that despite being a "main" character, she really doesn't get much spotlight. So she has very limited appearances to establish consistent characterization compared to the likes of Sonic, Tails, and Eggman.

So it's understandable her developmental process isn't as apparent, she simply doesn't make enough appearances and the series is usually focused on Sonic and whoever else he just happens to be partnering with (usually being Tails). So she just kinda falls by the wayside.

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14 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like there's a bit of a false dichotomy in that opening post and some of the reactions here; my attitude is more along the lines of...why can't Amy just be all of those things? Is there a rule that she can only have one these character traits at a time? That's not how characterization works. 

I notice this extreme dichotomy that fans try to enforce on the cast, "X needs to act like Y, otherwise it's OOC". There's no reason Amy can't be a mature leader, a bubbly genki girl, or have a bit of a temper at things that piss her off when the story calls for it. And accusing anything that falls out of those lines as "boring" or "wrong" just feels extremely close-minded.

What's actually the problem is that these traits basically are treated as mutually exclusive depending on the writer,rather than being organic parts of the character so that they feel more natural. There's no actual point of transition between "Mature Amy" "Genki Amy" or "Angry Amy" for it to be consistent characterization, so it just comes off as extremely weird. 

It's less "development" and more just changing her personality to suit whatever is happening in the plot. And that holds true for a lot of the cast. 

 

12 hours ago, Kuzu said:

See, this is exactly what I mean. There's nothing "inappropriate" about it. Characters are allowed to change over time given the story. That is literally how characterization works.

 

If you wanna criticize HOW it happens sure, but this inherent idea that she "can't be mature because it goes against her character" is ludicrous. 

I agree with this whole heartedly, even if I'm guilty of it. it's why I usually try to explain my complaints as an absence or shift in balance without explanation or prior expectation. In the case Amy I also take into account things like her supposed intentions from way back around her inception and as a result find anytime her bubbly and energetic traits are played down to barely noticeable as very jarring.

 

On a slight aside, on the matter of maturity, age is not something that determines that alone. Circumstances and individual ability to adapt play a strong roll in that. Just look up stories about single kids who have to take care of their households or kids who have had to raise their siblings. look at kids who have survived trauma and come out the other side stronger rather than broken. look back historically when 15 was an adult in may parts of the world due to short life expectancy, etc, etc. You'll find that there are all sorts of ways that a kid can be quite mature. And heck, silliness is not a trait that say Jerry Lewis was frowned upon for, and he is also respected for how much he changed the film industry with his more mature and behind the camera side. Using age as a determiner of maturity is really selling some people short and giving others way more credit than they'll ever deserve.

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20 hours ago, StaticMania said:

No character ever mentions years passing and that one joke of exception doesn't exactly mean anything outside of being meta comment.

Ok admittedly maybe Infinite wasn't speaking in-universe but there's a general kind of attitude that everyone takes that makes it feel as if they've been doing this for a very very long time.

Either way my point was more that there's not really any actual timeframe of events so it seems kinda unnecessary to say like "It's only been a year for them" when honestly there's nothing that really proves that. Going by the characters given ages to try and form a timeline of events would be a bit maddening since apparently several unspecified years ago everyone was in their classic designs and also the same ages they are now.

Basically it's just best not to take the characters given ages too seriously.

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23 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Honestly, the ages only really matter in relation to other characters. Amy being 12 is fine on its own, but matters more in comparison to Sonic. 

Eh, the only characters I really think are their given ages are Cream and Charmy. they act the most like actual children.

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18 hours ago, Wraith said:

I'd be up for seeing Amy's quirks clash with the leadership role a bit more like it does for Knuckles but the job suits her fine when you think about it and the neither Sonic Forces or the comic are really about Amy anyway.

It's just a cut above Knuckles being in charge of anyone since she actually something resembling a record of being responsible for others instead of a loner or tag along.

13 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Any's in a weird position because of character consolidation and a refusal to change. There are other women characters they could bring into prominence like blaze or rouge who would be much better tactician and more serious characters, but sega's continued desire to not jack shit with either of them unless their government assigned male hedgehog is around allows for those traits to be thrown upon amy even though they may be a bit unfitting in unfitting situations. If I am being honest with myself while i enjoy boom amy, amy being the leader of some army group is kinda weird, not as weird as knuckles, but still kinda weird.

Like at this point they could just get away with rebooting blaze's world to be apart of sonic's so she's around more or like just using rouge in any capcaicty , or even making a new wonder woman esque tough girl you use for these types of situations. But no, they have a very weirdly strict idea of who needs to be prominent , so these things are thrown on amy. There's an argument to be had that part of this is in response of her lack of character or being  a good one until recently , but I think its more than that because even before forces Ian could pull good characterization out of her and boom amy exists and she's kinda perfect. Not a military expert or a combat expert by anymeans and quirky but she's the cooler head.

There's a lot of decisions being made in sonic nowdays that feel like excuses, with amy an excuse not to use other girl characters and consolidate traits that they have into amy even though it doesn't exactly fit. And if i'm being honest character consolidation is happening to a lot of the cast, when the solution to this issue is " get someone to write them better " and not " Pair everything down, use characters less and make them simpler "

I fear as though if there ever is a 3d sonic reboot, something that I think is gonna happen more and more as time goes on, with the mentality sega/sonic team has right now amy might become what people think princess sally is and that's unfortunate. When you could have made a new cool character and had multiple women instead of the one you consolidate all the shit in. Because " she's a known quantity " or whatever justifications they make so they can calculate maximum positive reactions instead of actually fixing the problems they have.

More or less. We're in the position as of Sonic Forces where the cast is way bigger than Sonic Team is willing to do anything proper with (note how largely irrelevant the Resistance is). Knuckles is forced into the Resistance's leader since they ruined Tails so that he could be Sonic's Luigi, don't want to use Vector or Rouge since they aren't "pillars", and segregated G.U.N. Commander to Planet Human/retconned G.U.N. Commander out of the series. Amy is treated how she is as of Forces since they don't give a damn about Blaze anymore outside of giving Silver a girlfriend and filling the roster up in spinoffs and Rouge coasts by on being a well-received Adventure Era character (that said, I'll admit she and Silver were the MVPs of the non-Sonic and non-Buddy Resistance).

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17 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Any's in a weird position because of character consolidation and a refusal to change. There are other women characters they could bring into prominence like blaze or rouge who would be much better tactician and more serious characters, but sega's continued desire to not jack shit with either of them unless their government assigned male hedgehog is around allows for those traits to be thrown upon amy even though they may be a bit unfitting in unfitting situations. If I am being honest with myself while i enjoy boom amy, amy being the leader of some army group is kinda weird, not as weird as knuckles, but still kinda weird.

Like at this point they could just get away with rebooting blaze's world to be apart of sonic's so she's around more or like just using rouge in any capcaicty , or even making a new wonder woman esque tough girl you use for these types of situations. But no, they have a very weirdly strict idea of who needs to be prominent , so these things are thrown on amy. There's an argument to be had that part of this is in response of her lack of character or being  a good one until recently , but I think its more than that because even before forces Ian could pull good characterization out of her and boom amy exists and she's kinda perfect. Not a military expert or a combat expert by anymeans and quirky but she's the cooler head.

There's a lot of decisions being made in sonic nowdays that feel like excuses, with amy an excuse not to use other girl characters and consolidate traits that they have into amy even though it doesn't exactly fit. And if i'm being honest character consolidation is happening to a lot of the cast, when the solution to this issue is " get someone to write them better " and not " Pair everything down, use characters less and make them simpler "

I fear as though if there ever is a 3d sonic reboot, something that I think is gonna happen more and more as time goes on, with the mentality sega/sonic team has right now amy might become what people think princess sally is and that's unfortunate. When you could have made a new cool character and had multiple women instead of the one you consolidate all the shit in. Because " she's a known quantity " or whatever justifications they make so they can calculate maximum positive reactions instead of actually fixing the problems they have.

It's also because she's a Classic character and technically a part of Sonic's personal circle. 

15 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

 I'm not caught up on IDW and it's been awhile since I played Forces so sorry if I missed anything, but for example while a bit predictable wouldn't Rouge make a great scout? She's already had spy experience so this would be an extension of that used for war and have her contribute to the team.

That's essentially what she was--she's the one who found out Sonic was alive and that Eggman suddenly decided to get rid of him as a result.

14 hours ago, Sonario said:

While on the topic of other female characters, what about poor Cream? She's one of my favorite Sonic characters and it pains me to see her get shafted from not onlu main games like Forces, but also spinoffs like Team Sonic Racing! Her sweet, gentle and polite nature in any situation but willingness to toughen up, go against her own pacifistic ideals and lend a hand in fighting evil or even just helping out in her friends' adventures is something I really miss. I loved having her playable in the Advance games and Heroes. (And even in the 3DS version Rio 2016) She needs more love.

Yeah, I do too.

Though on the topic of Amy not really having that ingrained a characterization, it's funny: she's arguably the most complicated/developed character of the two, but Cream like the other female characters is more defined/consistent.

12 hours ago, Kuzu said:

The thing with Amy is that despite being a "main" character, she really doesn't get much spotlight. So she has very limited appearances to establish consistent characterization compared to the likes of Sonic, Tails, and Eggman.

So it's understandable her developmental process isn't as apparent, she simply doesn't make enough appearances and the series is usually focused on Sonic and whoever else he just happens to be partnering with (usually being Tails). So she just kinda falls by the wayside.

Enough appearances? Amy is barely tied for the fourth most appearances before Knuckles.

If anything, it's that she contributes relatively little beyond comic relief and/or levity.

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Whoa nice dissuasion I sparked

First I think age is barely worth acknowledging when it comes to 'maturity'. Tails is still 8, genius or not, he should not do half of things he's allowed to. Or Espio can't be ninja by 14. Besides, who's to say age works same way with Mobians as humans. Maybe being 12 is good enough to have driving license, live on your own or get a job. It's not weirder that how Pokemon trainers work.

Secondly to answer @Kuzu : the reason I like Sonic over say Marvel, is that I know who characters are. Say, Doctor Octopus can save Spider-man's life because he respects him or snap policeman's neck in front of him just to spite him. Over 60 years of existence, and I can't tell who he is. Characters can grow, but there should be recognizable core. If I love serious stoic Knuckles and demand him to show up, returning him as large idiot isn't what I wanted. There must something I can identify. Tails is positive example of it: he can either be shy and nervous or boastful and cheeky, but I still recognize that at the core he's insecure and tries to prove himself, so both attitudes are different ways/stages of dealing with that.
All whole Recurring Cast, Amy is one character I have loosest grasp on. I use to think trust that Flynn writes characters 'how they should be', until the shocking revelation that Amy slowly turns into Sally 2.0, so slow that I almost didn't noticed it. But right now, I just don't know how to feel about it.

Because real talk: early days Amy was... kinda incompetent.  She had a good heart alright and wanted to help, but through SA1-2 she got captured several times, was obviously inferior fighter, got distracted by a dang Twinkle Park and Sonic seemed to genuinely want to avoid spending time with her. And I can't say if by Generations she got much better. Again, I want to stress that she had good qualities (also she wasn't that crazy like people say: yes she asked Sonic in jail if he marries him, but she released him regardless of his answer. That's was innocent flirt at best, childish whim at worst, not crazy stalker), but in the of a day, can you imagine Amy still written that way? As heart of the group, but unable to keep up with Tails or Knuckles, someone that Sonic barely tolerates rather than acknowledges as one of closest allies? Remember than in Riders she was still written like that.

One thing I'm certain is that Amy must have crush on Sonic. it's unique trait that defines her. And Flynn proved it several times it can be shown as cute, source of inspiration and just relatable, rather than annoying or creepy (also: anyone watches Miraculous Ladybug here? Marinnete is a lot like Amy in a good way.) I think updating her to 'part of the crew' was necessity, she couldn't stay damsel for ever. (Still, in "World Collide" I laughed when Flynn implied that RoseWoman might be stronger than Tails, Blaze, Silver or even Shadow). But her role is as heart of the group, not mind. My biggest problem with her leading Resistance is that it doesn't do anything with her. For example putting Tails in charge would be challenge for him, something to test his confidence as he tries to fill up for Sonic. Even for Knuckles it was so different environment for him, I felt like there is story potential here (one that Sega won't write, but hey, headcanons are fun too). Amy becoming leader doesn't feel like expanding character, but like blurring it. Just cliche nr 3 "girls are responsible ones". When she leads Team Rose it's mostly Sonic style leading, aka shouting encouragements. In "Treasure Team Tango" her most important move was appealing to Shadow's better nature, again, emotional side. I'm not saying she can't do anything smart, but it should reflect her core character, other wise it's not Amy Rose, just some OC wearing her skin. (And you could argue that last stories weren't Amy-centric. But they weren't Omega centric either and he didn't turned into pacifist or lawyer).

(Too be 1000% fair, it is possible to write good story with characters feeling a bit-off. But I don't think anyone would advertise his story with "I completely change everyone's characterization", would you?)

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13 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Whoa nice dissuasion I sparked

First I think age is barely worth acknowledging when it comes to 'maturity'. Tails is still 8, genius or not, he should not do half of things he's allowed to. Or Espio can't be ninja by 14. Besides, who's to say age works same way with Mobians as humans. Maybe being 12 is good enough to have driving license, live on your own or get a job. It's not weirder that how Pokemon trainers work.

Secondly to answer @Kuzu : the reason I like Sonic over say Marvel, is that I know who characters are. Say, Doctor Octopus can save Spider-man's life because he respects him or snap policeman's neck in front of him just to spite him. Over 60 years of existence, and I can't tell who he is. Characters can grow, but there should be recognizable core. If I love serious stoic Knuckles and demand him to show up, returning him as large idiot isn't what I wanted. There must something I can identify. Tails is positive example of it: he can either be shy and nervous or boastful and cheeky, but I still recognize that at the core he's insecure and tries to prove himself, so both attitudes are different ways/stages of dealing with that.
All whole Recurring Cast, Amy is one character I have loosest grasp on. I use to think trust that Flynn writes characters 'how they should be', until the shocking revelation that Amy slowly turns into Sally 2.0, so slow that I almost didn't noticed it. But right now, I just don't know how to feel about it.

Because real talk: early days Amy was... kinda incompetent.  She had a good heart alright and wanted to help, but through SA1-2 she got captured several times, was obviously inferior fighter, got distracted by a dang Twinkle Park and Sonic seemed to genuinely want to avoid spending time with her. And I can't say if by Generations she got much better. Again, I want to stress that she had good qualities (also she wasn't that crazy like people say: yes she asked Sonic in jail if he marries him, but she released him regardless of his answer. That's was innocent flirt at best, childish whim at worst, not crazy stalker), but in the of a day, can you imagine Amy still written that way? As heart of the group, but unable to keep up with Tails or Knuckles, someone that Sonic barely tolerates rather than acknowledges as one of closest allies? Remember than in Riders she was still written like that.

One thing I'm certain is that Amy must have crush on Sonic. it's unique trait that defines her. And Flynn proved it several times it can be shown as cute, source of inspiration and just relatable, rather than annoying or creepy (also: anyone watches Miraculous Ladybug here? Marinnete is a lot like Amy in a good way.) I think updating her to 'part of the crew' was necessity, she couldn't stay damsel for ever. (Still, in "World Collide" I laughed when Flynn implied that RoseWoman might be stronger than Tails, Blaze, Silver or even Shadow). But her role is as heart of the group, not mind. My biggest problem with her leading Resistance is that it doesn't do anything with her. For example putting Tails in charge would be challenge for him, something to test his confidence as he tries to fill up for Sonic. Even for Knuckles it was so different environment for him, I felt like there is story potential here (one that Sega won't write, but hey, headcanons are fun too). Amy becoming leader doesn't feel like expanding character, but like blurring it. Just cliche nr 3 "girls are responsible ones". When she leads Team Rose it's mostly Sonic style leading, aka shouting encouragements. In "Treasure Team Tango" her most important move was appealing to Shadow's better nature, again, emotional side. I'm not saying she can't do anything smart, but it should reflect her core character, other wise it's not Amy Rose, just some OC wearing her skin.

(Too be 1000% fair, it is possible to write good story with characters feeling a bit-off. But I don't think anyone would advertise his story with "I completely change everyone's characterization", would you?)

Sorry if I sound like a broken record at this point, but the incarnation of Amy that perfectly balances her uniqueness with a more tolerable and involved presence as a main character who's significant to Sonic's adventures is still, to me, Boom Amy. She's one of the more cool-headed members of the team, is compassionate and empathetic, she's cheerful and peppy, she's still super into Sonic but less obsessive and more subtle about it and she still loses her temper every now and then too. A great composite of all the different traits she's shown over the course of her character development, rolled into one very likeable character: Amy Rose.

BTW, thanks for starting another fun and engaging character discussion thread! I just love discussing the dynamics of all the wonderful characters and their actions, mentalities and development with other people who speak my language, sharing opinions and learning about others' opinions in a pleasant and civil way. It's one of the reasons I finally joined these forums!

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45 minutes ago, Sonario said:

Sorry if I sound like a broken record at this point, but the incarnation of Amy that perfectly balances her uniqueness with a more tolerable and involved presence as a main character who's significant to Sonic's adventures is still, to me, Boom Amy. She's one of the more cool-headed members of the team, is compassionate and empathetic, she's cheerful and peppy, she's still super into Sonic but less obsessive and more subtle about it and she still loses her temper every now and then too. A great composite of all the different traits she's shown over the course of her character development, rolled into one very likeable character: Amy Rose.

BTW, thanks for starting another fun and engaging character discussion thread! I just love discussing the dynamics of all the wonderful characters and their actions, mentalities and development with other people who speak my language, sharing opinions and learning about others' opinions in a pleasant and civil way. It's one of the reasons I finally joined these forums!

Boom Amy was pretty good, although this being a sitcom it could vary a bit between episodes. Still, I kinda missed her open-crush on Sonic. "Self proclaim girlfriend" was at core of her creation, that was her unique twist.

Without it I don't see "uniqueness" you're talking about., I see 3 hats I mentioned in first post, combined into one. She's Archie Roll from Megaman, Coco from Crash, Katara from Avatar Aang, teenage Gwen from Ben 10 series, list goes on.  Which isn't automatically bad, people hear "stereotype" and automatically think it's bad, but tropes are repeat because they work. Still, her crush had potential to be good selling point. It just needs good writing.

5 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Comic book problems...

An example not well suited for that comparison honestly.

Fair point, but Sonic is running for 30 years now, he will eventually become similar to comics in that regards.

But okay: I don't know Megaman characters as well as Sonic's. Or Metroid, is Ridley tactical genius or just cold blooded murderer who rules on "bigger teeth wins" diplomacy. Ratchet & Clank series has extensive cutscenes, but main hero is kinda blank slate to me. I guess kinda cheeky? And what's Shredder from TMNT personality? Every cartoon/comic gives him new one, also origin. So "pure" Shredder is just a generic bad guy, with vague hate on Yoshi.

The reason I like Sonic so much is because it's vast world (army of games, not to mention spin-offs), but one that I can comprehend. Filled with colorful characters (character and design wise) and magic, aliens, robots, but always with Sonic at the core, so there is some consistency. And characters are mix of shallow personality trains and some levels of deeper characterization, so you can put them in  dark Zombot Apocalypse, comedic Team Racing Overdrive or IDK, a hospital soap opera and they would still work.


That is very unique mixture that no other franchise repeat for me.

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1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Or Espio can't be ninja by 14. 

He's 16. 

Also, Naruto is laughing at that.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

It's not weirder that how Pokemon trainers work.

Are Pokemon trainers really that weird though?

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 Say, Doctor Octopus can save Spider-man's life because he respects him or snap policeman's neck in front of him just to spite him. Over 60 years of existence, and I can't tell who he is.

Admittedly, I don't know that-that much about Spiderman, but I will say that Dr. Octopus is sorta vague and variable from what I've seen or heard. I do believe he is primarily assholish, though.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Characters can grow, but there should be recognizable core. If I love serious stoic Knuckles and demand him to show up, returning him as large idiot isn't what I wanted. There must something I can identify. 

Knuckles is funny because while his characterization is also somewhat variable from time to time, he definitely has more of a grounded idea of what he generally is and simply suffered from exaggeration/exploitation.

The borderline stoicism was mostly a thing the Adventure games did to further distance him from Sonic, but it was really about hammering in his lifestyle and isn't too out of the realm of rationale for him. 

Of course, Shadow joining the cast kinda necessitated they back off on that and they just ended up overexaggerating the simpler connotations of his behavior ever since.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:


All whole Recurring Cast, Amy is one character I have loosest grasp on. I use to think trust that Flynn writes characters 'how they should be', until the shocking revelation that Amy slowly turns into Sally 2.0, so slow that I almost didn't noticed it. But right now, I just don't know how to feel about it.

To be fair, the Sally parallel just sorta feels like the inherent comparison of what Forces was and ended up leaving IDW Amy with.

Well that and it's such a naked ideal of who Sally was anyway.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 As heart of the group, but unable to keep up with Tails or Knuckles, someone that Sonic barely tolerates rather than acknowledges as one of closest allies? Remember than in Riders she was still written like that.

Riders was one of the more comedic games at the time, now that you mention it.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

One thing I'm certain is that Amy must have crush on Sonic. it's unique trait that defines her. And Flynn proved it several times it can be shown as cute, source of inspiration and just relatable, rather than annoying or creepy (also: anyone watches Miraculous Ladybug here? Marinnete is a lot like Amy in a good way.)

Er, Amy is more spirited than the more finicky Marinette, but they do express more or less the same.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I think updating her to 'part of the crew' was necessity, she couldn't stay damsel for ever. (Still, in "World Collide" I laughed when Flynn implied that RoseWoman might be stronger than Tails, Blaze, Silver or even Shadow).

Oh really?

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

But her role is as heart of the group, not mind. My biggest problem with her leading Resistance is that it doesn't do anything with her. For example putting Tails in charge would be challenge for him, something to test his confidence as he tries to fill up for Sonic. Even for Knuckles it was so different environment for him, I felt like there is story potential here (one that Sega won't write, but hey, headcanons are fun too). Amy becoming leader doesn't feel like expanding character, but like blurring it. Just cliche nr 3 "girls are responsible ones".

When she leads Team Rose it's mostly Sonic style leading, aka shouting encouragements. In "Treasure Team Tango" her most important move was appealing to Shadow's better nature, again, emotional side.

(Too be 1000% fair, it is possible to write good story with characters feeling a bit-off. But I don't think anyone would advertise his story with "I completely change everyone's characterization", would you?)

Pretty much.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I'm not saying she can't do anything smart, but it should reflect her core character, other wise it's not Amy Rose, just some OC wearing her skin. (And you could argue that last stories weren't Amy-centric. But they weren't Omega centric either and he didn't turned into pacifist or lawyer).

I was gonna say it's because he's crucial to the plot/dynamics/series, but then i remembered there's far more freedom with Sonic & Eggman than Shadow & Gemerl, so....

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Boom Amy was pretty good, although this being a sitcom it could vary a bit between episodes. Still, I kinda missed her open-crush on Sonic. "Self proclaim girlfriend" was at core of her creation, that was her unique twist.

Without it I don't see "uniqueness" you're talking about., I see 3 hats I mentioned in first post, combined into one. She's Archie Roll from Megaman, Coco from Crash, Katara from Avatar Aang, teenage Gwen from Ben 10 series, list goes on.  Which isn't automatically bad, people hear "stereotype" and automatically think it's bad, but tropes are repeat because they work. Still, her crush had potential to be good selling point. It just needs good writing.

Fair point, but Sonic is running for 30 years now, he will eventually become similar to comics in that regards.

But okay: I don't know Megaman characters as well as Sonic's. Or Metroid, is Ridley tactical genius or just cold blooded murderer who rules on "bigger teeth wins" diplomacy. Ratchet & Clank series has extensive cutscenes, but main hero is kinda blank slate to me. I guess kinda cheeky? And what's Shredder from TMNT personality? Every cartoon/comic gives him new one, also origin. So "pure" Shredder is just a generic bad guy, with vague hate on Yoshi.

The reason I like Sonic so much is because it's vast world (army of games, not to mention spin-offs), but one that I can comprehend. Filled with colorful characters (character and design wise) and magic, aliens, robots, but always with Sonic at the core, so there is some consistency. And characters are mix of shallow personality trains and some levels of deeper characterization, so you can put them in  dark Zombot Apocalypse, comedic Team Racing Overdrive or IDK, a hospital soap opera and they would still work.


That is very unique mixture that no other franchise repeat for me.

I'm looking at this and while I'm initially somewhat agreeing, I'm also realizing that most Sonic characters aren't all that faceted so much as just easier to get&maintain the main idea of. Well, except for Megaman, but that wasn't really complicated at its source.

Meanwhile, Ridley(from what I understand) and Shredder are indeed changeable or rather standoffish due to how they are handled on the average, while Ratchet is actually more a case of his character having developed after the two or so games into something more venerable compared to Quark & Azmuth--you kinda have to see/know how he started for comparison(and especially appreciation since ooh) cause otherwise you got a guy who's straight-laced and fairly quiet until you get into the usually, not always relevant story.

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I want to talk about the resistance thing, and unfortunately this is gonna dunk on Ian Flynn a bit but here me out here. So like as we all know amy's resistance leadership only happened in the comic. Amy in forces was essentially a non entity because well, that's what happens when Japanese sega gets to write a sonic script and writes any of the women. That's unfortunate but that's an entire other conversation, but for now lets focus on comic amy right. Now some note that it feels kinda funky and nothing is being done with her character, I theorize that is because she has no autonomy. The reason she is the leader of the resistance is because Knuckles in flynn's mind, just can't be.

Ian Flynn has very particular opinions about what these characters are supposed to be and how they function, unless particularly forced to change his characterizations sort of come back to some core concepts to which he thinks makes these characters tick on some core level, and in theory there is nothing inherently wrong with that. However, as of late is beginning to brush sega's desires and sega's choices in the game in a way that's bad. Amy's resistance leadership doesn't feel like something that gives her more depth or makes her interesting. It feels like she's taking hit so knuckles doesn't, he felt so strongly about knuckles not being leadership material he openly explains why. And I changed the situation where he felt as though someone else could possibly be more suited to leadership. And that's why there's so knuckles can't be , not because it would be interesting. And he wanted to do something in relation to the previous game, even though he could have just...moved past it. He likes to stick to storylines and characterizations even to the detriment of things and that's just kind of what's happening here. Amy doesn't get to be amy, amy gets to be resistance mom. Her autonomy removed because " its more fitting " and " knuckles cannot "  rather than what makes an interesting narrative and what defines her as a character

I mentioned this in the comic thread, but I don't know what his directions are from sega, maybe sega wants amy to be resistance mom, I have no idea. But I can't help but doubt it, his reaction to not writing shadow and then finally doing so to hit a wall he would have hit earlier if he would have written him was " I guess I just wont write him " i'm not gonna like insult him or anything...as an artist it seems kinda...petty on the receiving end? He wants to write the characters to fit his story and his perception of them, and not write them for who they are supposed to be. And amy in a way, while not in the worst way is suffering from this. A lack of autonomy because its more " fitting" , not because its interesting. People talk about Pontac and Graff about knowing nothing, but I feel as though this is the opposite end of the spectrum we are experiencing now to some degree. Its nowhere near as bad, but we are seeing some less than good results of someone kinda wrapped up in preconceived notions of who they are supposed to be.

Where does this relate to who's amy? Well that's the thing, she's kinda no one. And that's what happens when you get wrapped up into what should and should be rather than what is? She's just there. Amy as of currently in the comic, isn't characterless but she just...there. And it sucks because I remember an amy in archie that used to give sonic the speeches he needed to get going. I feel like the problems outlined above exist throughout the comic, not the worst comic in the world. But its why amy is kinda weird and some others. I think the success of whisper and tangle is partially due to them being able to be themselves, because they are new and have no one else to be.

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:
Spoiler

 

I want to talk about the resistance thing, and unfortunately this is gonna dunk on Ian Flynn a bit but here me out here. So like as we all know amy's resistance leadership only happened in the comic. Amy in forces was essentially a non entity because well, that's what happens when Japanese sega gets to write a sonic script and writes any of the women. That's unfortunate but that's an entire other conversation, but for now lets focus on comic amy right. Now some note that it feels kinda funky and nothing is being done with her character, I theorize that is because she has no autonomy. The reason she is the leader of the resistance is because Knuckles in flynn's mind, just can't be.

Ian Flynn has very particular opinions about what these characters are supposed to be and how they function, unless particularly forced to change his characterizations sort of come back to some core concepts to which he thinks makes these characters tick on some core level, and in theory there is nothing inherently wrong with that. However, as of late is beginning to brush sega's desires and sega's choices in the game in a way that's bad. Amy's resistance leadership doesn't feel like something that gives her more depth or makes her interesting. It feels like she's taking hit so knuckles doesn't, he felt so strongly about knuckles not being leadership material he openly explains why. And I changed the situation where he felt as though someone else could possibly be more suited to leadership. And that's why there's so knuckles can't be , not because it would be interesting. And he wanted to do something in relation to the previous game, even though he could have just...moved past it. He likes to stick to storylines and characterizations even to the detriment of things and that's just kind of what's happening here. Amy doesn't get to be amy, amy gets to be resistance mom. Her autonomy removed because " its more fitting " and " knuckles cannot "  rather than what makes an interesting narrative and what defines her as a character

 

Overly cynical, though I can see some of it. 

41 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I mentioned this in the comic thread, but I don't know what his directions are from sega, maybe sega wants amy to be resistance mom, I have no idea. But I can't help but doubt it, his reaction to not writing shadow and then finally doing so to hit a wall he would have hit earlier if he would have written him was " I guess I just wont write him " i'm not gonna like insult him or anything...as an artist it seems kinda...petty on the receiving end? He wants to write the characters to fit his story and his perception of them, and not write them for who they are supposed to be. And amy in a way, while not in the worst way is suffering from this. A lack of autonomy because its more " fitting" , not because its interesting. People talk about Pontac and Graff about knowing nothing, but I feel as though this is the opposite end of the spectrum we are experiencing now to some degree. Its nowhere near as bad, but we are seeing some less than good results of someone kinda wrapped up in preconceived notions of who they are supposed to be.

To be fair on Shadow, it also has the issue of not really functioning in this half-tweaked state. So its just as easily a case "This isn't quite what the original idea was, nobody is really liking it , so it might be better to hold off until a better understanding is gained."

41 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Where does this relate to who's amy? Well that's the thing, she's kinda no one. And that's what happens when you get wrapped up into what should and should be rather than what is? She's just there. Amy as of currently in the comic, isn't characterless but she just...there. And it sucks because I remember an amy in archie that used to give sonic the speeches he needed to get going. I feel like the problems outlined above exist throughout the comic, not the worst comic in the world. But its why amy is kinda weird and some others. I think the success of whisper and tangle is partially due to them being able to be themselves, because they are new and have no one else to be.

 

 

 

There's also the matter of her debut issue being one of the best of the first ten.

Plus Tangle's essentially the same sorta character.

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2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Overly cynical, though I can see some of it. 

Hey there man. Would a guy with a shadow the hedgehog avatar be overly cynical?

Quote

To be fair on Shadow, it also has the issue of not really functioning in this half-tweaked state. So its just as easily a case "This isn't quite what the original idea was, nobody is really liking it , so it might be better to hold off until a better understanding is gained."

To relate this back to amy. Now again I have no idea what sega's directives are. Maybe they want Amy to be a yakuza, I have no clue. I have no inside information on this. So don't take the following statement as Shadowlax is dropping the deets. But I just don't think that their directives for these characters changes that much over the year. I feel like the wall he hit with shadow, would have been hit earlier if earlier he would have decided earlier on to make the first story about said edgelord...about said edgelord. Having to write him as a character may have actually gotten the feed back that he got later...earlier and realized that maybe things have changed.

Not the same situation, but I believe its a similar one. Her new character isn't in some ways a whole sale departure from her previous incarnations so not as dire. However, she is becoming undefined. After her debut issue, her appearances only seem to serve a purpose and are never really about her. Now to be fair to ...all story telling since the beginning of story telling, all characters serve some sort of purpose in a narrative. To pretend that isn't the case i to not understand narrative. However characterization, dialog , interaction and focus change that tool into a character. And amy has just been kind of a tool ( not in the derogatory way ) , and this doesn't help that's its an issue that Ian Flynn has had for a while. Obviously not every character can be the focus of every story. Its just the way of things, it takes a special talent to balance ensemble casts. But characterization shouldn't be in some ways degrading in the background. Moreover maybe don't make the 2nd arc about the world being blown up when we barely know about the world and who these characters are and apparently you barely know.

What

Anyway, the point of this rambling mess is this. I feel as though there is a problem with preconceived notions being broken and leaving characters in weird states. And I think this could have been and could be fixed with shorter character focused stuff before we move into any more large events. This comic would have done well to vibe check the IP, and we the audience , Ian Flynnn and the IP itself have all failed sega's vibe check. And I feel as though there are actually more characters being effected than we think. I personally think as the story goes on, I think IDW sonic is kinda weird. But that's another conversation for another thread. I just think amy is being defined by where she fits in the story, and what knuckles can't be, rather than whee should could fit in a story and who she actively is. And if i'm being honest that's kind of an issue with her character in general, less so nowadays. She's a lot more defined and that's good. Well at least in the games anyway.

Quote

There's also the matter of her debut issue being one of the best of the first ten.

Fair

Quote

Plus Tangle's essentially the same sorta character.

I would argue she's more sticks

 

Speaking of which , rip sticks.

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I feel like all of this contention on the ways Amy and Shadow have been written mostly stems from their characters and personalities have just been largely undefined for so long. 

Amy's entire character, can essentially be summed up as "Girl who likes the protagonist", that's her schtick, it's the entire concept behind her creation that she hopelessly chases after Sonic and he just kind of gets annoyed by her. That's fine for an occasional gag for a minor character, but it's not really suitable when Amy was upgraded to a major character post-Adventure. She's largely playing the same role as damsel who annoys Sonic, while Tails and Knuckles are the ones Sonic trusts and the ones who get things done while Amy just tags along. To be perfectly blunt, she was the Sakura Haruno of the group and I don't think I need to tell you what that means.

Naturally, such characterization made her quite unpopular for a time (outside of the rabid people who shipped her with Sonic). And it wasn't just a fandom thing either, the entire public perception of Amy was "Sonic's crazed stalker" and that was around the time her violent tendencies were played up. Sega probably took note and tried to "correct" character by simply downplaying the parts that people didn't like, namely her obsession with Sonic. But that in lies the problem. 

Without her crush on Sonic, Amy largely...has no character, outside of superficial ones like being "kind" and "sweet". Don't get me wrong, she has great moments of emotional support for the likes of Gamma and Shadow, but those moments were about the latter two than Amy herself. Amy just kinda kickstarted them, but those moments are largely centered on Gamma and Shadow. Amy was just kind of an afterthought. 

So now Amy's defining trait is largely gone, but now you have the problem of how do you define her character now? Stuff like putting her in the leader role feels like Flynn's awkward attempts at actually giving her a role that doesn't revolve around Sonic, and obviously the results are..iffy.

 

 

So Amy is kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place; her main defining trait largely made her unpopular for so long, but without that trait, the character is kind of boring and barely recognizable and I don't know how you fix that. But no, I don't think this some conspiracy of Flynn to just put Amy in a role he doesn't want to deal with, but he's facing the same problems every other writer has had in actually trying to define and give Amy a purpose that doesn't return her to her original role as "Sonic's crazy stalker".

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3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Without her crush on Sonic, Amy largely...has no character, outside of superficial ones like being "kind" and "sweet".

She could be a spunky genki girl. Someone who's got significant determination to do the right thing as well as being the cheerful oblivious type, which she is.

Being kind and sweet in the way that she used to be only meant that she had more compassion than...everyone else, but even back then she wasn't Cream. She wasn't polite or kind just as general character traits, she could be rude, take a "call to action" without needing much push (even if Sonic not helping was definitely a big push in SA1) and I'd say Sonic's so-called short temper would be given to her since one of the traits she then had would be getting angry pretty easily.

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Writers need to focus on making Amy interesting and not worry if fans think she's a crazy stalker or not Amy is now just a wallflower after the Sonic Boom TV show people didn't what to see her main trait become more interesting so it got dropped and replace by whatever trait the writers feels like at the moment.    

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