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Mr. Stinkhole

Sonic Adventure Remake: Best Case Scenarios & Worst Case Scenarios

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Obviously, the best case scenario for a possible Adventure 1 remake is that it’s a faithful recreation of the game that stays true to the foundation of it while simultaneously improving and adding upon it. I’m pretty sure that is what everyone wants out of any remake, let alone a SA1 remake. 

But if I’m gonna be honest, you wanna know what I think would be the absolute worst case scenario? 

Them suddenly turning it into a boost game.

Ugh, Just thinking about the controversy that could spawn from that has me shivering, lol.

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3 hours ago, Tarnish said:

We already have 3 versions of Supporting Me and 4 versions (or 5 if you count the final lap version in TSR) of Seaside Hill (I know it's from Heroes, but still)...I wonder if Jun is getting tired of this or not.

Still seems more reasonable to me than the amount of times they've reused some form of Green Hill. A song here or there isn't a lot when Sonic games often have multiple CDs worth of music. Generations being the exception as it was an anniversary game. A lot of character themes are used to musically refer to that character rather than Adventure itself. It's more that characters who aren't Sonic and Shadow haven't had a new one since Adventure 1&2, so those are their only modern theme. Speaks more about how they haven't been used as much since 2006 than anything.

I am curious about Supporting Me being used for Shadow considering it was used for the Biolizard. There's plenty of other Shadow tracks like Throw it all Away, All Hail Shadow (which was used for his Team Ultimate), some less used SA2 stage themes like The Supernatural.

I won't count Seaside Hill as that's from another game, but Sonic Team seems to overuse first levels in general. Even the fans do sometimes like remaking Emerald Coast. I think if they were tired of it they wouldn't do it so often. Don't forget they didn't have to do the YouTube remixes but did so anyways.

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I think there is some real sense that the controls<->gameplay environment interaction could be reinvented some day!

Beyond the physics of the 2D games, a crucial and perhaps newly attainable aspect is that there are very few meaningless control inputs.  What I remember from the Adventure games is that the player is often partially playing/competing against the chance of making control inputs that don't correctly steer the character. 

There is simply that weird and very welcome sense in the 2D games that with every input, we are almost painting the actions into being! 

In 3D games, running and jumping having momentum via the directional stick or pad can feel more like we are pulling the character around, rather than the momentum coming from within them. 

Maybe by creating a dedicated running button, the character would run in the direction they are facing, depending on pressure and taps etc of the run button, and the directional stick would allow partial steering.  When the character is not running , maybe a discrete control scheme takes over in which there are exploration, scouting and offense/defense options! 

That might be a simpler perspective, simply that the butons would have the characters perform actions that would branch to different sets of actions accordingly..!!

Say with four buttons, the basic four actions that would be possible might be:

 

A Defend

B Curl up

X Run forward

Y Walk forward

~~

New action set for Defend:

A Character special move (This could branch too

and be set to a default first action to happen immediately when pressing A)

B Temporary shield~lite created that uses some rings

X Jump backwards

Y Jump sideways depending on stick/D-pad input

 

New action set for Curl up:

A Charge up a long leap in direction/height chosen by stick

B Spin dash charge (Could be set to happen with the first press of the roll up button!)

X Roll backwards

Y Roll forwards

 

New action set for Run forwards:

A Character specific branchable actions

B Roll up (with current running momentum)

X Jump (not rolled up) either in same direction or steerable

Y Auto-aimed jump (not rolled up) to land on nearby platform (within reason) and keep momentum

 

New action set for Walk forwards could be the same mapping as Running but with different specific results partially just in terms of momentum but some of the character specific actions could be quite different!

Then there would at least have to be more action sets for Rolling, Flying, Climbing

What i wrote above feels like it could be confusing, but the idea is that most control inputs would have a positive effect.  Working with the different action sets could be simplified and in general we would be cued by what the character is doing on screen!  It might for example allow fluid chaining of movements and actions that would be intuitive and effective! 

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I'd hate a Sonic Adventure remake because the original game is awful and I'm tired of seeing the same stuff over and over again. It's not even just Sonic, although this franchise is really bad for recycling assets and ideas, I just don't like remakes generally.

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16 hours ago, Tarnish said:

A remake at this point would just reinforce my suspicion that they don't have a future for the franchise, so they're desperately clutching into its past and shoving elements of it into our faces out of desperation.

"Remember 2D gameplay? Well here is a ton of it even in a 3D game, because we can't figure out how to make Sonic work well in 3D!"

"Remember those old classic stages from the good old games? Well here they are, again and again and again, because we can't come up with interesting new stages anymore!"

"Remember how the old Sonic character design looked? Well here he is, again and again and again!"

The few times they try something new always ends up so misguided, they quickly go back to yank something out of the past games to try and "fix" things.

Except now they move on to marginally newer elements, where their actually original content atrophies more and more.

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10 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Well yeah Chaos can't teleport across dimensions or anything, it can only destroy the one world that it's in.

Yeah, and the one world he's in is the one where the Echidna's civilization was in.

9 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Can someone link me to any and all the sources that they know of that officially talk about the whole "two worlds" bollocks? I don't actually recall exactly what was officially said. I've heard so different things... Sometimes it comes from leaked documents, sometimes from interviews/QAS with Iizuka, sometimes it's comic mandates and sometimes its just what a friend of a friend of some random idiot on Twitter said.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100817082306/http://www.game.co.uk/Games/Wii/Platform/Sonic-Colours/~r349876/UserControls/ProductView/#

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2017/06/10/more-burning-questions-about-the-sonic-the-hedgehog-franchise-answered.aspx

GAME: Could you tell us a bit about the story behind Sonic Colours? It looks more like the old games, which were set on Moebius, than the new-style Sonics set in Station Square... / Takashi Iizuka: We have two different worlds for Sonic games – one is human, and one is set on the non-human side. Sonic Colours is set on the non-human side. The only human in the game is Dr Eggman, who tries to build this huge amusement park which, as you will see on the world map, ties all these planets together with a tractor beam

You can check the graph below to see how it falls apart under scrutiny:

Sonic Worlds.jpg

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Why does it have to be a remake though? Don't people want a brand new game more? I feel like it's more exciting, than just revisit the past. We've been there with nostalgia, it's enough (I know it was genesis nostalgia though, the Adventure era is untouched as of now, besides Generations). I... would rather have a Mania-esque celebration of both Adventure games, with also brand new stages, a new story, new and old elements from SA games. It's the best compromise between new and old IMO, than simply 100% old.

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4 minutes ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

Cynical comment aside, then let's work to make a future, let's improve it! Instead of you know, being stuck in the past.

I would if I were in charge, but I'm not.

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8 hours ago, Almar said:

Yeah, and the one world he's in is the one where the Echidna's civilization was in.

Earth?

I thought it was pretty obvious, but hey...it's the thing that doesn't matter as a lore thing.

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33 minutes ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

Why does it have to be a remake though?

Somebody saw how well the Crash/Spyro remakes sold and wanted to cash in on their own nostalgic product.

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But here's the catch: you can't just go remaking every game expecting it to sell like hot cakes. Crash and Spyro did sold like hot cakes because, besides the really well done remakes, the original games were already great. Sonic Adventure? Er.... Sonic's gameplay is great. But everything else is just non-sense. I wouldn't bear replaying Big's levels now in 4K.

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Just now, Jack at the Cinema said:

Cynical comment aside, then let's work to make a future, let's improve it! Instead of you know, being stuck in the past.

He's 100% right tho'. Everytime Sonic Team moves forward, they take at least 2 steps back. Most recent example? Sonic Forces. The avatar and the story are new. But everything else is old. Classic Sonic that Iizuka swore it was a one time only thing for Generations? There. Boost gameplay that was already left behind after Sonic Lost World? There. Rehashed zones and final boss, because of course? Theeeeere. 

Taking inspiration or out-right copying the past worked in Generations and Mania. Those games were special ocassions tho'. Sonic Forces was supposed to be the next big game. It flopped for many reasons besides the ones I listed, but they certainly took major steps back instead of going forward.

Sonic has a future worth of 1 or 2 years untill the next game comes along and sends it back 3 years again.

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22 minutes ago, Jango said:

He's 100% right tho'. Everytime Sonic Team moves forward, they take at least 2 steps back. Most recent example? Sonic Forces. The avatar and the story are new. But everything else is old. Classic Sonic that Iizuka swore it was a one time only thing for Generations? There. Boost gameplay that was already left behind after Sonic Lost World? There. Rehashed zones and final boss, because of course? Theeeeere. 

Taking inspiration or out-right copying the past worked in Generations and Mania. Those games were special ocassions tho'. Sonic Forces was supposed to be the next big game. It flopped for many reasons besides the ones I listed, but they certainly took major steps back instead of going forward.

Sonic has a future worth of 1 or 2 years untill the next game comes along and sends it back 3 years again.

Maybe that's why they're mostly only doing anniversary games now..."Screw trying to come up with anything new, we'll just call it an anniversary game so it gives us a pass for reusing old stuff."

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30 minutes ago, Jango said:

He's 100% right tho'. Everytime Sonic Team moves forward, they take at least 2 steps back. Most recent example? Sonic Forces. The avatar and the story are new. But everything else is old. Classic Sonic that Iizuka swore it was a one time only thing for Generations? There. Boost gameplay that was already left behind after Sonic Lost World? There. Rehashed zones and final boss, because of course? Theeeeere. 

Taking inspiration or out-right copying the past worked in Generations and Mania. Those games were special ocassions tho'. Sonic Forces was supposed to be the next big game. It flopped for many reasons besides the ones I listed, but they certainly took major steps back instead of going forward.

Sonic has a future worth of 1 or 2 years untill the next game comes along and sends it back 3 years again.

That's just depressing, really. I'm still gonna fight to have more fresh things than trips to nostalgia land. I enjoyed the idea of the Avatar, and would like to see it expanded and improved, that's for sure. They take steps back? Ok… that's the price for taking a risk, would you really rather have safe games based on ONLY nostalgia, or brand new games? Good or bad? I'd like a mix of both.

Hence, the Whole Mania sequel speculation, we want it to be like Mania in essence and gameplay, but with all-new zones, new style of graphics, new shield power ups perhaps. There are lots of potential good ideas.

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4 minutes ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

That's just depressing, really. I'm still gonna fight to have more fresh things than trips to nostalgia land. I enjoyed the idea of the Avatar, and would like to see it expanded and improved, that's for sure. They take steps back? Ok… that's the price for taking a risk, would you really rather have safe games based on ONLY nostalgia, or brand new games? Good or bad? I'd like a mix of both.

Hence, the Whole Mania sequel speculation, we want it to be like Mania in essence and gameplay, but with all-new zones, new style of graphics, new shield power ups perhaps. There are lots of potential good ideas.

It is depressing. I want a brand new and unique 3D Sonic as much as a Mania sequel, but I'm fully aware that the later is a safer bet. Every time I comment on Modern Sonic I sound cynical, but it is what it is. Sonic Team entered this loop where they can't move forward and their attempts at pandering the past always falls short. And, while Mania was 70% old levels and gameplay, Christian and his team managed to refresh those old zones in a better way than Sonic Team.

I'm too am freaking tired of old tropes, themes, bosses and gameplay, but if the brand wants to keep going that way, I'll look forward to whatever the Mania Team is cooking, because they at least got it. If Sonic Team comes up with another boost game with corridor-like level design and old themes, no one's gonna buy that shit. At least I'm sure as heck I won't. I already skipped their last game anyways.

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22 hours ago, DryLagoon said:


After playing the dreamcast mod, I must say I disagree. Maybe for the textures but the lighting on Sonic made him look very plastic and fake. I much prefer the dreamcast lighting there. I say that having played the DX version more.
 

Right, I meant to say Sonic Team was ATTEMPTING to make it more realistic, I didn't say they succeeded. I agree a ton of beautiful Dreamcast effects were lost in the transition. There's a whole website about that which I'm sure most of you are already familair with, but yeah:
https://dreamcastify.unreliable.network/

SA1.png.6af27215d6d1e8e62014c61634fb9bc0.png

In fact, that's the wonderful irony of Sonic adventure DX, despite the general art aesthetic becoming more somber to go fo a more realistic style, their incompotence in translating the technical graphic effects like Window reflections, transparency, lighting, etc. etc. makes the DX version lose a lot of it's realism.

If the alleged new version will have state of the art Hedgehog Engine 2 graphics, yet go for a more cartoony Lost world artstyle, the irony will continue in the opposite direction. That'd be something.

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2 hours ago, Jango said:

But here's the catch: you can't just go remaking every game expecting it to sell like hot cakes. Crash and Spyro did sold like hot cakes because, besides the really well done remakes, the original games were already great. Sonic Adventure? Er.... Sonic's gameplay is great. But everything else is just non-sense. I wouldn't bear replaying Big's levels now in 4K.

I know, entertainment is littered with the corpses of things attempting to be an own version of something successful but there's just enough that do manage it that any trend will be chased.

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@Jango you did good, Forces wasn't Worth it, okay maybe at a low price but still, it feels like an interactive movie, especially if you are a fan of 3D Sonic, it's not good at all. Worse than Colors in that aspect.

Yeah I enjoyed the little things, even the story despite not being that great, it's better than the usual shit but still not well written. I still recommend you the IDW comics, they are INCREDIBLY well written, no matter the content, direction and limitations by SEGA, actually there is plenty of freedom, maybe not for some characters but it's ok.

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They will find a way to make it bad. Be it Pontaff, Boost, jokes, memes, Classic Sonic, Wisps, Bugs, story inconsistencies, botched Chao garden, no hubworld. Each of the 6 playable characters has a chance of getting a bad gameplay.

Imagine Super Sonic joking while fighting Perfect Chaos.Imagine Knuckles beign more stupid like the modern image.

Imagine each character being"updated" to fit the modern image = memes and jokes.

The chances of a good game are slim at best

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Best case scenario is an updated version of a milestone game for a new generation with improved control, playstyles, presentation, and maybe even some bonuses that enriches the experience.

Worst case scenario is an underwhelming game that misses the point of the original, wastes valuable resources on a completely unoriginal product, and perhaps worst of all, sullies what many consider a remaining bastion of hope for the series.

Overall, I say don't remake those games and instead focus on making a original game without Adventure in the title that evokes a vaguely comparable feeling in those who enjoy it and maybe even those who didn't quite.

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17 hours ago, Almar said:

Yeah, and the one world he's in is the one where the Echidna's civilization was in.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100817082306/http://www.game.co.uk/Games/Wii/Platform/Sonic-Colours/~r349876/UserControls/ProductView/#

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2017/06/10/more-burning-questions-about-the-sonic-the-hedgehog-franchise-answered.aspx

GAME: Could you tell us a bit about the story behind Sonic Colours? It looks more like the old games, which were set on Moebius, than the new-style Sonics set in Station Square... / Takashi Iizuka: We have two different worlds for Sonic games – one is human, and one is set on the non-human side. Sonic Colours is set on the non-human side. The only human in the game is Dr Eggman, who tries to build this huge amusement park which, as you will see on the world map, ties all these planets together with a tractor beam

You can check the graph below to see how it falls apart under scrutiny:

Sonic Worlds.jpg

Advance 2 has Angel Island, as well. 

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9 hours ago, Jango said:

 Boost gameplay that was already left behind after Sonic Lost World? There.

I mean, that was clearly in there BECAUSE people were so all over the place with Lost World.

9 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Maybe that's why they're mostly only doing anniversary games now..."Screw trying to come up with anything new, we'll just call it an anniversary game so it gives us a pass for reusing old stuff."

Yeah, I gotta say, it's really kinda depressing how almost every new game has to be "The Next Big Sonic Game" and/or a celebration. I know part of it is because game development has gotten more complicated and SonicTeam seemingly doesn't have the resources to consistently put out games like the mid-2000s, but *fudge*!

Team Sonic Racing was a GIFT in comparison, even if it was somewhat limited.

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Let's be honest and just say Team Sonic Racing was the best music album that included a free game inside. The game itself is really inferior to All-Stars Racing Transformed. Budget limitations? Sure, but why? It's the only Sonic game SEGA put out that year (and 2018 as well, and probably also 2020). TSR is abandoned right now. Not a single DLC. It's as gift as a pair of socks can be. And no, I don't hate the game, eventhough I haven't played it, but let's face it, it's super underwhelming.

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