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Sonic Adventure Remake: Best Case Scenarios & Worst Case Scenarios

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13 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Earth?

I thought it was pretty obvious, but hey...it's the thing that doesn't matter as a lore thing.

Yeah it's Earth. It's in line with what Naka said about Sonic's adventures starting in Oceania. The franchise was intended to happen in a fantastic Earth where Sonic is ultimately just a human with fur not some weird alien or something segregated from humies.

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1 minute ago, Almar said:

The franchise was intended to happen in a fantastic Earth where Sonic is ultimately just a human with fur not some weird alien or something segregated from humies.

And it should stay that way...because all change is bad change.

Don't take this seriously, I can't take it.

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8 minutes ago, Almar said:

Yeah it's Earth. It's in line with what Naka said about Sonic's adventures starting in Oceania. The franchise was intended to happen in a fantastic Earth where Sonic is ultimately just a human with fur not some weird alien or something segregated from humies.

And all this time I thought he was supposed to be a hedgehog.

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7 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

And it should stay that way...because all change is bad change.

Don't take this seriously, I can't take it.

We already had Sonic X to get some weird alien Sonic.

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

And all this time I thought he was supposed to be a hedgehog.

He can speak full sentences, operate machinery, eat junk food, etc. He's no different from Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny. It's like saying Legolas isn't a human with pointy ears.

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1 minute ago, Almar said:

He's no different from Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny.

Um...Bugs Bunny isn't in a Mickey Mouse situation.

Ignoring the whole actor thing, in the shorts he was an actual animal. Not a "human" in da fur fur, Mickey Mouse's thing is that he's not allowed to act like a mouse...that's all.

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6 minutes ago, Almar said:

He can speak full sentences, operate machinery, eat junk food, etc. He's no different from Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny. It's like saying Legolas isn't a human with pointy ears.

He's allowed to run around naked in public, too, and that's considered a bit of a faux pas for humans.

Honestly I just think it's boring to treat Sonic like he's just a funny looking human. He's a hedgehog; an anthropomorphic one, sure, but if you eliminate all distinction between Sonic anthros and humans there hardly seems to be a point in having both.

And it's not like he's any less of a funny looking human if he comes from another world rather than from an island somewhere on Earth.

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Chalk me up to the team that loves Sonic Adventure just the way it is and would want any theoretical remake to  look critically at the game and make any necessary changes.

SA1 is a pretty big game, and offers so much variety in its gameplay. Some of it is good, some of it isn't. Whilst I won't pretend do speak for absolutely everybody, I think it's pretty safe to say that there are elements of the original that by large would not be missed if they were changed or removed outright. The biggest offender should go without saying; Big's fishing gameplay. Just get rid of it. Even with the technical quirks ironed out (uncooperative camera, fish not biting etc etc), dedicating an entire campaign to a fishing minigame in what is otherwise a high speed platformer is a mistake. I'm not in favour of axing Big or any of the playable cast, but changes are necessary.

Sonic and Knuckles should stay as-is. Sonic really only needs technical improvements (like not uncalling from a ball when brushing against a wall), but his levels are controls are otherwise bliss. They're the strongest parts of SA1. Knuckles is great too. If only some of his levels were a bit later, he'd be perfect. Everyone else needs either a few tweaks or big changes. Gamma needs some adjustments to his controls, Amy needs a speed increase and Tails... Tails is weird. Tails' campaign is a strange retread of Sonic's. That would be fine if he didn't hear okay through half of Sonic's levels cut in half.I really think Tails needs separate levels to accommodate his flight, or make the races feel like actual races. If any part of SA1 feels like filler, it's Tails.
 

And Big. I don't care what you do. Tell his story in a different way through optional fishing minigames or take him right back to the drawing board and do him entirely differently. Ideally, make him a Sonic style platformer (like everyone else) and use his fishing line as a grapple or something. I dunno, he just can't be kept as is.

That's all best case scenario stuff though. Worst case? It's hard to say. There's so many ways to go wrong. Sticking too closely to the original would be one. SA1 is such a mixture of good and bad ideas that you have to take out the bad in a remake. Changing what was already good would be a nightmare too. Boost gameplay? Chao Garden removed? No more Adventure Fields? An artstyle that doesn't reflect the original? Christ, no. 

SA1 is a weird game. Unlike Crash and Spyro which are basically 1:1 remakes, SA1 would be hurt by the approach. I just can't see SEGA doing anything on the scale of SA1 again. It's a huge game, but Sonic games now are tiny. We've not had anything remotely as big as SA1 since Unleashed.

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Um...Bugs Bunny isn't in a Mickey Mouse situation.

Ignoring the whole actor thing, in the shorts he was an actual animal. Not a "human" in da fur fur, Mickey Mouse's thing is that he's not allowed to act like a mouse...that's all.

Bugs Bunny has been shown in plenty of shorts or movies to be in situations where's not an "actual animal." Especially among Chuck Jones work.

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

He's allowed to run around naked in public, too, and that's considered a bit of a faux pas for humans.

Honestly I just think it's boring to treat Sonic like he's just a funny looking human. He's a hedgehog; an anthropomorphic one, sure, but if you eliminate all distinction between Sonic anthros and humans there hardly seems to be a point in having both.

And it's not like he's any less of a funny looking human if he comes from another world rather than from an island somewhere on Earth.

And what other distinctions are there supposed to be there?

Tech? They both use it. Cities or otherwise civilization? They both have them. The female characters are largely clothed too.

Two-Worlds hasn't brought anything more than an excuse to stop including non-Eggman humans and also to wave off the tonal and visual clashes in the series.

 

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I'm mixed on Big's gameplay. I find the idea of changing it to a grapple focused platformer interesting but I'm also not sure why the time waster nestled in the corner of the game is always the go to for the biggest offender. It's a very short joke campaign comprised of small levels composed of reused assets. It doesn't actually represent 1/6th of the game outside of it's place on the CSS..

That's the danger of seemingly objective information. There are 6 campaigns in SA1 but Sonic's campaign tower over the other 5 with most of them built on the backs of his. This structure would probably be retained for a remake. More than enough of the game revolves around running and jumping is all I'm saying. 

Like I said there's nothing wrong with changing Big up but one of the cooler things about the Adventure games and other platformers of that era was that they weren't shy with engaging with time wasters like fishing or chao gardens or collections of old titles or multiplayer modes. They're not as carefully anemic as they are now. Not every single shred of content has to feed directly back into the core gameplay loop. 

I dunno, changing Big is fine, I guess? I'd just be careful with the mindset behind it.

If they just kept it a dumb arcadey fishing minigame and tightened the fuck out of the mechanics I'd be more than fine with that. 

 

 

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The problem with Big is that, unlike side content such as the Chao Gardens, is that he's a mandatory full campaign required to beat the game. Whilst I'm cool with SA1 including different gameplay styles, Big's is just too different. The rest of the characters all play like fun platformers built off many of the same mechanics. Big however is a fishing game. It doesn't belong. There's being adventurous and varied with the gameplay styles, and there's completely changing the genre. It's too much.

My other rough idea for Big would be to remove his separate campaign. Replace his storyline with diary pages that are found across the world as collectables, and make him findable in various levels/Adventure fields to initiate a fishing mini game.

I dunno. All I'm doing is spitballing. At the end of the day, I just don't want a campaign dedicated to fishing no matter how good the fishing gameplay could be. Sky Chase too is way too prominent in SA1, if we're going to talk about what does and doesn't belong. 

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Big is only required to see the final boss fight. You can ignore him otherwise. If the special stage requirement in the 2D games hasn't set off any alarm bells in 30 years I don't really see the difference here

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2 hours ago, Jango said:

Let's be honest and just say Team Sonic Racing was the best music album that included a free game inside. The game itself is really inferior to All-Stars Racing Transformed. Budget limitations? Sure, but why? It's the only Sonic game SEGA put out that year (and 2018 as well, and probably also 2020). TSR is abandoned right now. Not a single DLC. It's as gift as a pair of socks can be. And no, I don't hate the game, eventhough I haven't played it, but let's face it, it's super underwhelming.

That's one way of looking it, I guess. At least it's a pair you don't have to buy now. Hope we get another, fancier pair next year.

Again, it's sad that each game is made to feel has to prove something when the budget and in some cases trinkets aren't really ther--

Oh wait, it's you.

 

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I'd say Big's gameplay is a bigger departure from the rest of SA than special stages usually are from the games they're in (though admittedly there is less of him to grind through). Plus SA is much more story-driven than most games that require finishing special stages to see the end; if you skip Big you're not just missing out on a boss fight and a congratulations screen, you're missing the conclusion that ties all of the stories together and properly resolves the loose ends. You can beat 3&K emeraldless and live without seeing Doomsday Zone, but playing SA and never finding out how they deal with that bigass city-destroying water dragon from the intro is bound to be unsatisfying.

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1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

Chalk me up to the team that loves Sonic Adventure just the way it is and would want any theoretical remake to  look critically at the game and make any necessary changes.

SA1 is a pretty big game, and offers so much variety in its gameplay. Some of it is good, some of it isn't. Whilst I won't pretend do speak for absolutely everybody, I think it's pretty safe to say that there are elements of the original that by large would not be missed if they were changed or removed outright. The biggest offender should go without saying; Big's fishing gameplay. Just get rid of it. Even with the technical quirks ironed out (uncooperative camera, fish not biting etc etc), dedicating an entire campaign to a fishing minigame in what is otherwise a high speed platformer is a mistake. I'm not in favour of axing Big or any of the playable cast, but changes are necessary.

Sonic and Knuckles should stay as-is. Sonic really only needs technical improvements (like not uncalling from a ball when brushing against a wall), but his levels are controls are otherwise bliss. They're the strongest parts of SA1. Knuckles is great too. If only some of his levels were a bit later, he'd be perfect. Everyone else needs either a few tweaks or big changes. Gamma needs some adjustments to his controls, Amy needs a speed increase and Tails... Tails is weird. Tails' campaign is a strange retread of Sonic's. That would be fine if he didn't hear okay through half of Sonic's levels cut in half.I really think Tails needs separate levels to accommodate his flight, or make the races feel like actual races. If any part of SA1 feels like filler, it's Tails.
 

And Big. I don't care what you do. Tell his story in a different way through optional fishing minigames or take him right back to the drawing board and do him entirely differently. Ideally, make him a Sonic style platformer (like everyone else) and use his fishing line as a grapple or something. I dunno, he just can't be kept as is.

That's all best case scenario stuff though. Worst case? It's hard to say. There's so many ways to go wrong. Sticking too closely to the original would be one. SA1 is such a mixture of good and bad ideas that you have to take out the bad in a remake. Changing what was already good would be a nightmare too. Boost gameplay? Chao Garden removed? No more Adventure Fields? An artstyle that doesn't reflect the original? Christ, no. 

SA1 is a weird game. Unlike Crash and Spyro which are basically 1:1 remakes, SA1 would be hurt by the approach. I just can't see SEGA doing anything on the scale of SA1 again. It's a huge game, but Sonic games now are tiny. We've not had anything remotely as big as SA1 since Unleashed.

You can also keep the general idea of how the scoring worked around: the fish are necessary for hire scores, but Froggy is a medium, but manageable goal once you track him down. Maybe make his levels more exploration and/or puzzle based in order to get to him ala Ice Cap and Hot Shelter.

 

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I don't think asking players to sit down with a minigame is as tall of an order as you guys think is. Anyone that wants to see the conclusion that badly will just put up with it and maybe even wring some enjoyment out of it along the way. On the other hand anyone that's stopped by a minigame probably wasn't all that invested in the story to begin with. 

The basics of difficulty progression and reward boils down to not just bowing down to every player's whim and gut reaction. I stand by making them play everything. I might have felt differently if the final story had a level or two but it doesn't. It's a pretty mechanically light boss that serves as an emotional conclusion for those who stuck it all out more than anything else. 

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Just make his campaign a mini-game or non mandatory to unlock Super Sonic. Hell, they can make Big's story something super over the top since he's seen as a joke these days anyway. Even if the fishing isn't as exciting as homing attacking robots, we could at least enjoy some fun antics. The Knuckles & Knuckles secret ending in Mania caught everyone off guard and it's so clever. Something like that, as in, it was all a dream or a story being told by Big himself, could work for the character.

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7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't think asking players to sit down with a minigame is as tall of an order as you guys think is. Anyone that wants to see the conclusion that badly will just put up with it and maybe even wring some enjoyment out of it along the way. On the other hand anyone that's stopped by a minigame probably wasn't all that invested in the story to begin with. 

Maybe just try not to make a part of the game that a lot of people will have to groan and force themselves through if they actually want to get to the end.

It doesn't have to be all completely sanitized Sonic-only gameplay but when a game goes so far off course that speedy platforming has been replaced with a fishing sim and people still hate it 20 years later maybe it was just a bad idea.

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Big's Story is not relevant enough to be a main campaign, despite the crossing paths nothing of note is being missed out on...oddly enough besides the Tikal flashback he gets.

Literally make Amy, E-102 Gamma, and Big just optional stories and give their Tikal cutscenes to Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles since the scenes those 3 are equipped with aren't all that major anyway.

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Worst-Case Scenario: It’s the same game, except with touch-ups like better-looking models, better-looking lip-syncing, Eggman having an actual mouth, and less pauses between characters’ lines.  As someone who will often defend the first Sonic Adventure for doing some things right, even I concede that a lot of the game’s design doesn’t hold up.  The hubworld is tiny, sparse, and barely interactive by modern standards, the levels aren’t exactly big either, though some are less narrow than SA2’s, padding the game out by making multiple characters play the same levels could get on people’s nerves, and while telling a story across six-different perspectives is an interesting idea, the story they told is too vague to survive such fragmentation.  To fix that, you’d need to add multiple new scenes and more dialogue, but that isn’t viable as many of the original actors are now unavailable, or even dead.  Everything that needs to be said about Big the Cat has been already, and a fair amount of people would also like at least some other characters gone.  The truth is that without going the other extreme and becoming a substantially different game, a Sonic Adventure remake is going to be too similar to the original to stop its haters from hating it and convince its fans to buy it.  Even in the present situation with Sonic Team’s talent, resources and even existence quite questionable, I’d say a Sonic Adventure 3 is a safer option, mostly because it frees them from having to make many tough decisions about what to keep.

Best-Case Scenario: It’s the same premise, story, and setting, in a new game.  I’m thinking keep Station Square’s layout but make it truly contiguous, add more, make physics work, and maybe even have the levels be missions and events set in the same map.  The game’s progression in that case would be like Conker’s Bad Fur Day; different things happen at different times in its world depending on what you’ve done, you keep having to do new things, and if you want to replay old “levels” there’s a chapter mode for you to do that without erasing progress in story mode.  Big will be one of multiple unlockable and optional characters, and play better while still being able to fish.
 

Bonus Mediocre-Case Scenario: It’s Sonic Adventure in name only; maybe with the same plot and environment themes but with new, Sonic-only, shallow boost levels.

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14 hours ago, Jango said:

Let's be honest and just say Team Sonic Racing was the best music album that included a free game inside. The game itself is really inferior to All-Stars Racing Transformed. Budget limitations? Sure, but why? It's the only Sonic game SEGA put out that year (and 2018 as well, and probably also 2020). TSR is abandoned right now. Not a single DLC. It's as gift as a pair of socks can be. And no, I don't hate the game, eventhough I haven't played it, but let's face it, it's super underwhelming.

I have to disagree. I'm someone who didn't care for the Team concept in Heroes (at least based on the execution in the actual game), and I was surprised by how much I like TSR. I wasn't sold by the original trailer that barely showed anything off, but I did see some reviews praising the team system so I decided to give it a chance. I can see why some wouldn't like it as I find the game shines the most with co-op, and since online isn't active that means having IRL friends play with you. All of the kart racers I played would only have you compete against other racers, so having teams and ways to time things with them to get you all ahead I think is great. I also enjoy the cart customization too, you can get a good amount of variety with the different paint textures and colors.

I do get why having no DLC sucks, but if so many people do consider it "just a soundtrack" and don't play online, why would they bother making DLC then?

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20 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I have to disagree. I'm someone who didn't care for the Team concept in Heroes (at least based on the execution in the actual game), and I was surprised by how much I like TSR. I wasn't sold by the original trailer that barely showed anything off, but I did see some reviews praising the team system so I decided to give it a chance. I can see why some wouldn't like it as I find the game shines the most with co-op, and since online isn't active that means having IRL friends play with you. All of the kart racers I played would only have you compete against other racers, so having teams and ways to time things with them to get you all ahead I think is great. I also enjoy the cart customization too, you can get a good amount of variety with the different paint textures and colors.

I do get why having no DLC sucks, but if so many people do consider it "just a soundtrack" and don't play online, why would they bother making DLC then?

I'm not totally on board with all of @Jango's comments on TSR, but the sentiment is pretty much on-point. TSR is a pretty average game with a great soundtrack. It lacks the cutting edge and tight gameplay of ASRT and feels decidedly B-class instead of "triple A". It's got just 21 tracks (and within that number are 9 tracks recycled from previous instalments) and a paltry 15 characters to choose from. I personally really like TSR, but it's pretty objective to say that the game was made on a smaller budget than past instalments in the series.

TSR has that in common with other recent Sonic games like Lost World and Forces. The size, scale and scope of Sonic games has dropped significantly over the past decade. Even Colours and Generations are pretty small games compared to the Adventure series, Shadow or '06. I just don't think that an SA1 remake could be feasible, let alone be any good, if the most that SEGA is willing to deliver is budget titles. Sonic's just not the cutting edge franchise that it used to be anymore, but it's still remembered as one. You can't remake a game as big as SA1 without a budget and skillset to match.

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Regarding Big in a potential remake. I think a compromise could be to retain the fishing gameplay (with proper refinements of course) but make Big's campaign an unlockable bonus which isn't part of the path to Super Sonic. It's short enough and so seperate from the rest of the plot that it would feel appropriate as a bonus campaign. Maybe integrate Froggy into a couple places in other storylines just so that the whole Chaos tail and chaos emerald thing is suitably tied up before reaching the Super Sonic finale.

Maybe go wild with his fishing locations too, even if the location doesn't initially seem like a good fit. Have him go to Speed Highway and go after flatbed trucks carrying oversized fish tanks. Go to Casinopolis and fish in a giant jacuzzi in the shower room. You could have him cameo in the background of some of the cutscenes that are a bit drawn out in the original game. Sonic and Tails talk while Big is getting told off by the Hotel manager for trying to fish in the swimming pool.

With Big's story now being standalone, the radical shift in gameplay style is now suitably silly. It doesn't have to become nothing but meme fodder but they could also rework Big's story to be more humourous than it already is. He's not an idiot but he clearly has a unique way of seeing the world. They could run with that and make events from other storylines play out in a more over-the-top and ridiculous way because Big simply misunderstands the situations since he's completely out of the loop.

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The only reason I'm against making Big optional is because he has the most important Tikal flashbacks. Honestly I'd just have Froggy be the goal ring and make him a Sonic reskin, with the fishing being optional.

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