"The world will betray you Shadow"

[MetalSkulkBane]

Say what you want about Sonic 06, at least it was memorable. And one of those memorable thing was Mephiles the Dark and his claim that "humanity will turn against Shadow". I won't pretend that 06 story is golden, but on paper idea sounds intriguing.

So I've been thinking if there is any interesting story in this premise. Could humans/mobians turn on Shadow. Would they have good reason? Could Shadow be the on at fault?

I would really like to hear if anyone has a cool idea how to expand this premise. Because frankly I came up with only one idea.

Mephiles was playing "self-fulfilling prophecy".
He told Silver Sonic will be the cause of the bad future. IF Silver killed Sonic, what he said would kinda be true.
Analogically he told Shadow that humanity would turn on him. IF Shadow joined forced with Mephiles, again, this would on technicality be true.
It is satisfying answer (for me), but kinda kills potential for new stories to tell. Anyone has something better?

[Sega DogTagz]

Omega already gave the logic behind the inevitable outcome. Anything that is seen as too big or too powerful is a threat. Basic human nature. 

 

Shadow is always going to have to fight an uphill battle for the hearts and minds of the masses simply because there are always going to be those Jonah Jamison's of the world who won't be able to look past what he has done due to what he could do if he ever decided to do it. 

[DabigRG]

Good thing he's been hanging around the animal world lately, eh?

:trollface:

22 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Shadow is always going to have to fight an uphill battle for the hearts and minds of the masses simply because there are always going to be those Jonah Jamison's of the world who won't be able to look past what he has done due to what he could do if he ever decided to do it. 

Now that's an unexpected parallel. :

[Diogenes]

I really don't see how they could make the jump to Shadow being hated and feared by humanity after ShtH went so far in heaping praise on him. The president considers him a big enough hero that he had a photo of him on his desk, and the GUN Commander, the one guy who kind of has an actual reason to hate him and the authority/power to do something about it, ends up on his side as well. And it's not as if Shadow does or (at least on the surface) is anything that people would fear; nobody's bothered by Sonic running around smashing robots.

The whole thing just rings entirely hollow to me. It's a stock plot hook for any "unnatural" character but we've already seen the universe contort itself to Shadow's favor. I guess maybe the one thing that could work is if it's an unfounded fear, and they use it to explore how Shadow feels about his own identity, but that's more personal than this series usually goes, ShtH was already supposed to be about him coming to terms with his identity anyway, and I honestly have seen enough Shadow angst for one lifetime.

[DryLagoon]

7 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

his claim that "humanity will turn against Shadow".

Is it bad my first thought was part of the fandom itself turning against Shadow?

For in universe I'm not as sure, SA2 probably if they let word of Shadow get out instead of framing it on Sonic. Shadow's game depends on the route, but could see it happening. Not sure for the rest, he didn't have much of a role in a lot of newer games besides Forces. I could see Infinite framing Shadow as revenge I guess.

[Tara]

I honestly don't feel like this is a concept that needs expanded upon.  To the contrary, I'd like to see it downplayed and thankfully it has been.

SA2 pretty much tackled Shadow's relationship with humans in a fine, conclusive manner.  Shadow initially has no reason to dislike humans, after all they created him.  Then humans kill his best friend and now he hates them.  Then at the end of the game, he realizes that humans aren't perfect but that they are still worth protecting.  I really don't think you can explore it much more thoroughly than that without it being redundant.

That isn't to say that SA2 handled it perfectly.  There are quite a few things I would change in terms of pacing and delivery, for sure.  Like, I wouldn't make Shadow's redemption solely based on Amy giving a speech that incidentally reminds him of Maria's TRUE final wishes.  But I think conceptually the concept has been explored to its fullest.  Shadow and '06's explorations on the subject just felt unnecessary.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

If nothing else, it would be interesting if his more recent change in attitude had something to do with this.

[Wraith]

All it would take for humanity to turn against Shadow again is for him to be framed or screw up in a serious way. I don't think the character is above either of those things happening to him.

I sympathize with those saying it would be redundant up above but I've always wanted to see this idea executed better than it has been.

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

...but I've always wanted to see this idea executed better than it has been.

I'd like to actually see it done.

Mephiles on said that it happened, but it can be done even better by actually happening.

[Sega DogTagz]

Its not like it would take some monumental shift in Shadow's character to put him back in the fear category. He's an anti-hero who pushes forward with a ends justify the means mentality. He'll cross whatever line necessary to accomplish the mission, as its as simple as the masses at large getting a bit squeamish about a decision he makes down the line. 

 

Heroes like him who put the greater good over morality are bound to cross that line eventually. They flirt with it every day. He doesn't need to be framed or make a critical error. He literally has to do nothing more than keep being himself. Eventually he'll decide to cripple grandma as a punishment for jay-walking and blammo he's public enemy number 1.

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, Tara said:

I honestly don't feel like this is a concept that needs expanded upon.  To the contrary, I'd like to see it downplayed and thankfully it has been.

SA2 pretty much tackled Shadow's relationship with humans in a fine, conclusive manner.  Shadow initially has no reason to dislike humans, after all they created him.  Then humans kill his best friend and now he hates them.  Then at the end of the game, he realizes that humans aren't perfect but that they are still worth protecting.  I really don't think you can explore it much more thoroughly than that without it being redundant.

That isn't to say that SA2 handled it perfectly.  There are quite a few things I would change in terms of pacing and delivery, for sure.  Like, I wouldn't make Shadow's redemption solely based on Amy giving a speech that incidentally reminds him of Maria's TRUE final wishes.  But I think conceptually the concept has been explored to its fullest.  Shadow and '06's explorations on the subject just felt unnecessary.

So on the first thing I don't think its been downplayed at all. Shadow hasn't just been around, but the inherent distrust of shadow and his methods is a theme that has been continuous throughout the franchise and would most likely happen with humans if he was around them more often. But its just transformed to the anthropomorphic characters. And sega themselves among many other questionable shadow based decisions have made shadow purposefully more antagonistic probably to play this up, because he might be around more often.

 

As for it being redundant. Yeah Kinda? But like every concept in this franchise is redundant. To be blunt its a franchise for children that is most likely going to exist in perpetuity unless sega runs into the ground. There are stories that will be retold, concepts revisited ect. And I personally think its less about these stories being retold, and more so what you do with them. And while I can't and do not want to tell you that you are somehow inherently wrong, I will say it speaks volumes that alot of stories involving shadow both internal and in the community involve this. Its a powerful narrative, to have people hate you despite you doing what you think is right because of who you are and what you look like speaks to a great deal of people. Particularly marginalized people, LGBTQ, people of color, things like that. The sonic fanbase is full of a lot of LGBTQ people and i feel like occasionally going back to that well tell that story is important. I'm one of them, and I appreciate I can relate to character on that level. I don't think anything being " conclusive " matters. Capitalism dictates this will never be concluded, just do cool stuff and don't make the story or characters ass and sure tell whatever story you want.

 

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

All it would take for humanity to turn against Shadow again is for him to be framed or screw up in a serious way. I don't think the character is above either of those things happening to him.

I sympathize with those saying it would be redundant up above but I've always wanted to see this idea executed better than it has been.

You have summed up my feelings on the matter

11 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I really don't see how they could make the jump to Shadow being hated and feared by humanity after ShtH went so far in heaping praise on him.

Most people didn't see that. Also IRL people in marginalized groups do amazing shit all the time and people still hate them. Its a relevant narrative for a lot of the audience. Heck if you want to go even further, sometimes those people attribute thier feats to others so they don't have to acknowledge group or person they don't like did a thing. You could probably create an interesting narrative where sonic gets upset because people are trying to credit him with stuff shadow did because they don't want to like shadow. Sonic has always been a series that occasionally dipped its toes into reliability, there is more potential here.

11 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Omega already gave the logic behind the inevitable outcome. Anything that is seen as too big or too powerful is a threat. Basic human nature. 

 

Shadow is always going to have to fight an uphill battle for the hearts and minds of the masses simply because there are always going to be those Jonah Jamison's of the world who won't be able to look past what he has done due to what he could do if he ever decided to do it. 

I'm now imagining anthro JJJ

He's a bulldog

[DryLagoon]

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think anything being " conclusive " matters. Capitalism dictates this will never be concluded, just do cool stuff and don't make the story or characters ass and sure tell whatever story you want.

I think a game can be "conclusive" within itself. SA2 brings up things that could be reused again (Rouge, G.U.N., Gerald, the Ark, etc), but at the time Shadow himself was kind of not like that. He told his story and was done, but then was so popular they decided to keep using him anyways. Even if him coming back lessens SA2's ending's impact somewhat, it's still a story I go back to and can enjoy on it's own despite of what came after.

So even if it might not stay that way, it's still possible to do so within a title I think. I'm sorry most of my examples are SA2, it's a very interesting game to me so I find myself going back to it a lot.

[Shadowlax]

57 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I think a game can be "conclusive" within itself. SA2 brings up things that could be reused again (Rouge, G.U.N., Gerald, the Ark, etc), but at the time Shadow himself was kind of not like that. He told his story and was done, but then was so popular they decided to keep using him anyways. Even if him coming back lessens SA2's ending's impact somewhat, it's still a story I go back to and can enjoy on it's own despite of what came after.

So even if it might not stay that way, it's still possible to do so within a title I think. I'm sorry most of my examples are SA2, it's a very interesting game to me so I find myself going back to it a lot.

No issue. I like sa2 too. If I may prattle a bit, I think that while its story on a technically level might not be as sound as sa1 it hits its story beats better. I feel like its part of the reason it resonates with so many, sa2. Back on topic , yes things in isolation in cases like these should tell and complete their own stories. Feeling incomplete is part of my issue with forces, among many others. However we are not talking about SA2 in isolation or 06, but as a part of an entire franchise. One that is continuing to reintroduce itself to newer and newer kids or people in general. And the nature of that is, on occasion you are just gonna get similar stories.

Sometimes you want to introduce a premise, sometimes the writer wants to do their own take, sometime its a bit of a reboot. Regardless its the nature of the beast. I love TMNT i love it so much. Every few years I have to sit though a comic or an episode of a TV show about raph going doing his own thing only to learn that he misses his team. Or leonardo learning how to be a hero ( though to the new TV series credit it did buck that trend ) or one about mikey having to chill. They are gonna retell stories, particularly if they are relevant to character development.

These stories are just gonna get retold, sonic is never going to be some intricate universe you need to refer to this thing at this place to learn the dank lore. They just gonna retell stories or give character new backgrounds. Sonic's at this point a franchise that regularly reboots itself every so often, all but in actually committing to it. And sonic 06 was an attempt to do that, hence there revisiting that. And now they are kind of doing it again, and it seems like they prepping shadow's characterization to revisit it again.

yes a thing can tell its own story in a franchise. But to expect that one thing to be the last word on it forever, is naive.

[Tara]

8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

So on the first thing I don't think its been downplayed at all. Shadow hasn't just been around, but the inherent distrust of shadow and his methods is a theme that has been continuous throughout the franchise and would most likely happen with humans if he was around them more often. But its just transformed to the anthropomorphic characters. And sega themselves among many other questionable shadow based decisions have made shadow purposefully more antagonistic probably to play this up, because he might be around more often.

While it is true that Shadow along with most characters that aren't the main four and Eggman haven't really been around much to judge this accurately, the few appearances he has made since 2010 haven't really revolved around this, either.  Free Riders doesn't have any plot related to Shadow's relationship with humans, nor Generations, nor Sonic Boom, nor Team Sonic Racing, nor Lego Dimensions.  Now to be clear, none of these are examples of Shadow being characterized extremely well, just that they also found things to do with him that didn't involve examining his relationship with humans.  Or at the very least, found something to do with him aside from "Humans bad.  Should kill?  <five seconds later>  Nah they a'ight."

Now there is the saying "Once bitten, twice shy" that I think would apply to Shadow.  He's been hurt by humans before, so I certainly don't expect him to have his heart thawed and embrace humans with open arms.  But characterizing Shadow as someone who is just one incident away from killing everything in spite of the fact that he literally sacrificed himself in order to protect them is... pretty poor characterization, to be honest.

8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

As for it being redundant. Yeah Kinda? But like every concept in this franchise is redundant. To be blunt its a franchise for children that is most likely going to exist in perpetuity unless sega runs into the ground. There are stories that will be retold, concepts revisited ect. And I personally think its less about these stories being retold, and more so what you do with them. And while I can't and do not want to tell you that you are somehow inherently wrong, I will say it speaks volumes that alot of stories involving shadow both internal and in the community involve this. Its a powerful narrative, to have people hate you despite you doing what you think is right because of who you are and what you look like speaks to a great deal of people. Particularly marginalized people, LGBTQ, people of color, things like that. The sonic fanbase is full of a lot of LGBTQ people and i feel like occasionally going back to that well tell that story is important. I'm one of them, and I appreciate I can relate to character on that level. I don't think anything being " conclusive " matters. Capitalism dictates this will never be concluded, just do cool stuff and don't make the story or characters ass and sure tell whatever story you want.

Having recurring themes is not the same as being redundant.  We expect a certain level of reliance on a predetermined formula due to the nature of the genre.  We know that Eggman is going to try to take over the world, we know that characters are going to have constant struggles that are consistent with their characters.  And of course, as the series ages and reboots (whether soft or hard) every so often, of course there are going to be retellings of classic scenarios.  But like... most of the recurring themes are not based on resolved issues.  SA2 pretty much brought Shadow's arc with humans to its fullest logical conclusion.  Then he's brought back with amnesia and it's just... status quo as usual.  As though that never happened.  That's, you know, bad writing.

I'd compare it to modern Batman media's obsession with posing questions like "does Batman create his own enemies?" or "Is Batman's decision not to kill really ethical?" or "Are Batman and the Joker basically two sides of the same coin?"  At one point, I think these were not only valid but extremely powerful takes that really opened the character up for exploration.  But when they've been done so many times over the years to the point where the dialogue is almost line-for-line predictable even before you actually watch the thing in question, that's... redundancy.  And that's... you know, bad.  You do something enough times and eventually it loses its power.

I also think comparing Shadow to a persecuted minority is a bit of a stretch.  Like I wouldn't put it past Sega to try to code him that way in a retrospective way, but the comparison is so flimsy that I think it's kind of belittling to the people he would be attempting to represent.  You could maybe make the case for it in SA2 where the only thing we really know is that G.U.N. feared what would happen if Shadow were somehow given to the wrong hands, which speaks to the sort of self-fulfilling prophecy of prejudice.  But in Shadow, nobody really disliked Shadow except the G.U.N. Commander (to the point where even his subordinates were like "wait wut") and that wasn't because different but because he was associated with a childhood trauma (which is also pretty stupid, don't get me wrong), and as the game progressed, people only disliked/feared him because he was actually doing violent things.  And in '06, the thought that humans would eventually betray Shadow again was something suggested by Mephiles to manipulate Shadow and little else.  Otherwise, humans play pretty much no role in Shadow's story in that game.

I also think it's kind of weird to view Shadow as a subject of discrimination when he is the ONLY character that is scrutinized in this manner.  Sonic himself, as well as all his friends, never experience such persecution.  So it just comes across as hollow lip service.  At least in Sonic X, for all its faults, had the general perception of Sonic and his friends teeter a la X-Men.  But then, when the subject of human/animal relations is brought up, Shadow is conspicuously absent, so it's kind of moot.

8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

You have summed up my feelings on the matter

I also don't think Wraith's post necessarily coincides with your point as much as you think it does.  I'm not trying to put words in his mouth, of course, but his point comes less from the position that it's such a powerful narrative that is intrinsic to his character as much as "it's been done pitifully so many times before that I'd like one that actually does it right."  Which is something I can empathize with, even if I don't necessarily agree.  Like, if they're going to do it again, I'd certainly rather they do it right than do it wrong.  But I also think it makes the character a little one-note.

8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Most people didn't see that. Also IRL people in marginalized groups do amazing shit all the time and people still hate them. Its a relevant narrative for a lot of the audience. Heck if you want to go even further, sometimes those people attribute thier feats to others so they don't have to acknowledge group or person they don't like did a thing. You could probably create an interesting narrative where sonic gets upset because people are trying to credit him with stuff shadow did because they don't want to like shadow. Sonic has always been a series that occasionally dipped its toes into reliability, there is more potential here.

I mean, that's a pretty shallow and surface level understanding of how social dynamics work.  If Sonic is going to tackle that kind of subjectmatter, I would rather it not be Bright but with hedgehogs.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Tara said:

I also think comparing Shadow to a persecuted minority is a bit of a stretch. 

Not to ignore the rest of your post, i'm going to respond to it. I just want to address this really quick. It isn't comparing, I didn't say " shadow is like a marginalized group " what I said was shadow and characters of his type tend to attract those people like myself because his plight is relatable. I also don't think its good for you to tell people how people should be processing characters that relate to them. Because i'm not the only one who have seen and processed the stuff related to shadow in that way.

I think saying that he is basically a minority would be some tone deaf shit , and i'm not saying that. I am saying his story is relatable for a lot of people in that regard, like myself and others marginalized people. And I think that story is important to tell.

Saying shadow is a thing because of his experiences

And saying

Some people find shadow relatable in this way because of their experiences

Are two very different statements and before we I continue I want to make that distinction very clear.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Tara said:

 

I also don't think Wraith's post necessarily coincides with your point as much as you think it does.  I'm not trying to put words in his mouth, of course, but his point comes less from the position that it's such a powerful narrative that is intrinsic to his character as much as "it's been done pitifully so many times before that I'd like one that actually does it right."  Which is something I can empathize with, even if I don't necessarily agree.  Like, if they're going to do it again, I'd certainly rather they do it right than do it wrong.  But I also think it makes the character a little one-note.

 

It's somewhere in between. I actually like Shadow's arcs in all 3 games more than most but it's not like I'm blind to the writing and presentation issues. 

 

And they revisit the same setups and ideas often enough with Sonic and Eggman that I wouldn't mind them taking another shot at a character and idea that I find interesting. 

[Tornado]

19 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I also don't think its good for you to tell people how people should be processing characters that relate to them.

I guess we can shut the thread down then.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Tara said:

While it is true that Shadow along with most characters that aren't the main four and Eggman haven't really been around much to judge this accurately, the few appearances he has made since 2010 haven't really revolved around this, either.  Free Riders doesn't have any plot related to Shadow's relationship with humans, nor Generations, nor Sonic Boom, nor Team Sonic Racing, nor Lego Dimensions.  Now to be clear, none of these are examples of Shadow being characterized extremely well, just that they also found things to do with him that didn't involve examining his relationship with humans.  Or at the very least, found something to do with him aside from "Humans bad.  Should kill?  <five seconds later>  Nah they a'ight."

Not humans, but they have revolved around whether justified or not, shadow being a guy that people seem to not inherently trust. I can't really mention generations because...that story kinda dissolves after the first cutscene and from my understanding you don't even see current timeline shadow in that game until the end of the game. But TSR for example , his role in the story while minimal is sonic just...not trusting him, sonic boom the characters for good reason at least from what the story presents kind of being weary of him an and not trusting him. And while not gonna envoke this as some sort of secret info its very clear they had more planned for that character even in ROL because everyone is kinda content with his existance in the end. That along with the deleted sound files makes me think there was just an entire playable sequence where you found out he was cool , but a dick ( his homeostasis) .

His stories tend to revolve around him not being trusted because of who he is or what he's about. And the humans don't have to be there to continue that theme. Heck it pops up in the comics too, this seems to be a go to " what are we going to do with shadow " " No one trusts him " story.

Quote

Now there is the saying "Once bitten, twice shy" that I think would apply to Shadow.  He's been hurt by humans before, so I certainly don't expect him to have his heart thawed and embrace humans with open arms.  But characterizing Shadow as someone who is just one incident away from killing everything in spite of the fact that he literally sacrificed himself in order to protect them is... pretty poor characterization, to be honest.

While I think there have been interesting stories of people who have helped people in the past and incidents turn them into monsters. I think Injustices Superman is a great example of this. I do agree with you. I think part of the reason it may come off that way is that TMNT just reboots every so often. Sonic is presumably the same. And the retreads if they are to make any will come off redundant unless ( I think its more of a when ) they start formally restarting things.

 

Quote

But like... most of the recurring themes are not based on resolved issues. 

That's just not true? For a few reasons.

1) because characters who exist for a very long time just get ripped back to previous status quos

But 2) Sometimes the issue isn't resolved. And if i'm being honest, even if shadow didn't loose his memory in sa2. It wouldn't be. Maria is like a 9 year old girl, and while she's optimistic for the world, shadow has to live in that world. And there were people in that world still that did not like him for who he was particularly the people who murdered all the people he knew in the first place. I don't think there is any universe where a living weapon gets out of a governments care and they don't turn the world over to get it back. It wasn't gonna be over untill GUN also made peice or one of them were gone.

This sort of narrative is particularly common. For example, there are still old ass weapons X people looking for wolverine. Even though wolverine may have mentally come to terms with things on his end. That doesn't mean his antagonists stop existing or stop wanting to capture him.

 

Quote

SA2 pretty much brought Shadow's arc with humans to its fullest logical conclusion.  Then he's brought back with amnesia and it's just... status quo as usual.  As though that never happened.  That's, you know, bad writing.

I disagree.

Quote

I'd compare it to modern Batman media's obsession with posing questions like "does Batman create his own enemies?" or "Is Batman's decision not to kill really ethical?" or "Are Batman and the Joker basically two sides of the same coin?"  At one point, I think these were not only valid but extremely powerful takes that really opened the character up for exploration.  But when they've been done so many times over the years to the point where the dialogue is almost line-for-line predictable even before you actually watch the thing in question, that's... redundancy.  And that's... you know, bad.  You do something enough times and eventually it loses its power.

I don't think that's comparable though. Shadow's vs humanity popped up for 3ish games. Then shadow kinda vanished. And he popped up again and wasn't really in the fore front. While I argue that is still a part of his character, that distrust of him. He hasn't been in focus enough for it to be that redundant. The last time he was was in 14 years ago. I know we are all super fans and kinda in the thick of it. But its been a long ass time and I don't think its gotten to the point that it was redundant I don't think it was back then either.

 

Quote

I also think it's kind of weird to view Shadow as a subject of discrimination when he is the ONLY character that is scrutinized in this manner.  Sonic himself, as well as all his friends, never experience such persecution. 

Yeah they aren't like him.

I was gonna bring up the example using humor in the tweet but unfortunately the twitter account is protected. But to explain, there's this panel in the archie sonic universe books where they are going through some briefing and the commander asks what does he know about black arms stuff and shadow looks viably uncomfortable. And the joke was essentially relating to experiences that I and many other people of color have gone through when you are in classroom and you might be the only person of color there and it gets to the chapter about something that might be related to your ancestry and the teacher turns their attention specific to you. 

Why do I bring up this scenario, well simply put shadow is different. At least in the eyes of many perciving him, maybe people have gone through scenarios where they are the only one discriminated against in a group for very specific reasons. Just because you or your friends may not experience something doesn't mean someone else is going through their own personal hell. And just because he's been through some things doesn't really invalidate his discrimination. But rather puts it into a particular perspective. They view specifically HIM as other. 

 

4 minutes ago, Tornado said:

I guess we can shut the thread down then.

Hey, hey guy. I know we had our disagreements in the past. But I think this is infact not it. The quote your are quoting is in relation to marginalized groups to which I am apart of on occasion identifying with aspects of characters or characters and how while you may not see what they are relating to their choice to do so should be respected. The topic and subject matter is kind of sensitive and should be treated with tact.

And your response here , if i'm being blunt can be read a bit offensive.

If you are just doing this for the sake of sass, there are plenty of other posts I will make on less sensitive subjects that you can sass me on. However, in this instance this isn't a good for you and kind of reflects a bit poorly on moderation.

[Wraith]

Shadow is a character that clicks with me but not from the minority experience perspective. I could see how people might read him that way but it hadn't even crossed my mind until you said it there. For me that only ever clicks when the characters in question are innocent and being ostracized anyway by some oppressive force. You can argue to what degree Shadow is responsible for his actions, but he's definitely guilty to some extent. The closest thing Sonic has gotten to anything resembling this for me was the Freedom Fighters being on the backfoot against robotnik in SATAM and even then that feels like a stretch that only works if I make some assumptions in my head. 

Shadow is however a relatable character to me on the much more universal level of just being a guy who made some mistakes and seeks redemption. I never tried to blow a planet up, but y'know. Metaphors and all that.

[Celestia]

I don't really agree that this was resolved in SA2/Shadow's game. The president was always willing to give Shadow a chance and the commander changed his mind but those are two people. It makes sense there would still be people wary of Shadow considering his actions in SA2 and possibly his own game (you could run with the idea that the "canon" series of events includes him siding with the Arms at least once, for example), regardless of his last minute change of heart and later actions. You wouldn't even be able to blame them really especially since a lot of the details probably aren't public knowledge, and even if they are "Well he says he didn't remember the truth but how do you know HE was telling the truth?", etc. It wouldn't have to be tons of people either, it could just be specific characters. You could create some neat antagonists for him out of that I think.

I wouldn't really expect a story where what Shadow found out about the future in '06 actually happened in the present day anyway, I think it makes more sense as a far future thing that might happen, which he would understandably be worried about. '06 doesn't do anything interesting with even that much, but that's to be expected because bad game is bad.

[Tornado]

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The quote your are quoting is in relation to marginalized groups to which I am apart of on occasion identifying with aspects of characters or characters and how while you may not see what they are relating to their choice to do so should be respected. The topic and subject matter is kind of sensitive and should be treated with tact.

The quote I am quoting is attempting to dismiss an objection to a parallel you made as reading too much into the text to justify an argument; basically just because you don't want those objections to be made. You attempted to back that up with this additional bit:

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Because i'm not the only one who have seen and processed the stuff related to shadow in that way.

The obvious problem is that fandoms, and their ability to overthink the works they are fans of to bend them to their personal interpretations and experiences, are not at all a new occurrence. It's also not a defense of the argument to say others think the same thing. The Sonic fandom can be loaded with LBGT people for all I know or care for the purposes of this thread. No matter how much people want to find solace in Shadow's in-game persecution and distrust for... *checks notes* being a bio weapon that tried to blow up the world multiple times... as being relatable to their struggles, Akito is still perfectly free to call that a stretch to link it to the real life situation of someone simply trying to live their life with their minority status (whatever that may be) and the persecution they face for doing so. Whether I agree with Akito or not, you absolutely are wrong for telling her that she shouldn't debate you on the matter of your interpretations and explanations thereof.

 

 

It's not even a specific problem of the Sonic fanbase, in spite of things like overwrought discussions about how offensive hammers are to the very tenets of feminism or how Sonic always being incorruptibly purely pure proves he has tons of layers to his personality. Just a couple weeks ago Kotaku ran an article about how an Overwatch group felt Blizzard betrayed them for giving D.Va a school DLC outfit. Why? Because those people had forced their interpretation of her character as actually being representation of their Korean identity; and Blizzard giving her a schoolgirl outfit means they were (only now, apparently) sexualizing her. And that's fine. Absolutely. They're perfectly free to take issue with that, especially when Blizzard likes to give lip service to that sort of thing and fully brings it on themselves when they go against that.

But I'm still able to note, regardless of how they feel about the character, that D.Va was always a character so "Korean" that she has Japanese romanizations on the side of her mecha and has a backstory that conveniently would only require changing location names to completely change her heritage to be identical to any number of plucky girl characters from any number of mecha anime of the past 20 years; and was so much of a haven from the boogeyman of character sexualization that her default outfit is an Evangelion plugsuit dipped in Easter paint and NASCAR sponsors; and that those people have hitched their wagon so much on a character in a hero shooter made by a publisher who just a few months ago showed that the extent of their importance on cultural representation stops when the Chinese government tells them to stop.

 

 

Hell, fucking half the stuff on TV Tropes, a site with thousands of members that is treated as a primary source for various works at times, seems like it was forced in to fit along with whatever narrative they've internalized about a piece of media. 

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And your response here , if i'm being blunt can be read a bit offensive.

Here you go:

https://www.cesdb.com/west-point-bridge-designer.html

Use that.

 

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

However, in this instance this isn't a good for you and kind of reflects a bit poorly on moderation.

I could write a long ass book on the amount of things you've tried chase moderators out of discussions with because trying to argue with you is seemingly inherently something that "reflects poorly on moderation."

[Celestia]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

And your response here , if i'm being blunt can be read a bit offensive.

Hmm. Do you think (or expect) everyone in a marginalized group to agree with you on this?

I understand that you're not saying it's a direct comparison, but if that's the case what's the problem with disagreeing? You constantly regurgitate "omg you shouldn't be on forums I guess if you don't want dissent," and yet here you are.

[DryLagoon]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Why do I bring up this scenario, well simply put shadow is different.

I think one way he is different is his origin. The main 4 as people here like to call it are as far as we know all naturally as they are. While Shadow was created to be the way he is. He also has close ties to humanity, although how much everyone else does depends on the story.

[Shadowlax]

5 hours ago, Celestia said:

Hmm. Do you think (or expect) everyone in a marginalized group to agree with you on this?

No?

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I understand that you're not saying it's a direct comparison, but if that's the case what's the problem with disagreeing? You constantly regurgitate "omg you shouldn't be on forums I guess if you don't want dissent," and yet here you are.

This is a subject that's a bit more sensitive than " I like the funny colored hedgehog because he hit thing good " and while it may involve said funny colored hedgehog its about how this may relate to people in some ways that require a bit more tact. I don't know about you but I don't engage every conversation I have in life the same, sometimes a change in cadence is needed. I feel like that's a fair take?

 

6 hours ago, Tornado said:

The quote I am quoting is attempting to dismiss an objection to a parallel you made as reading too much into the text to justify an argument; basically just because you don't want those objections to be made. You attempted to back that up with this additional bit:

The obvious problem is that fandoms, and their ability to overthink the works they are fans of to bend them to their personal interpretations and experiences, are not at all a new occurrence. It's also not a defense of the argument to say others think the same thing. The Sonic fandom can be loaded with LBGT people for all I know or care for the purposes of this thread. No matter how much people want to find solace in Shadow's in-game persecution and distrust for... *checks notes* being a bio weapon that tried to blow up the world multiple times... as being relatable to their struggles, Akito is still perfectly free to call that a stretch to link it to the real life situation of someone simply trying to live their life with their minority status (whatever that may be) and the persecution they face for doing so. Whether I agree with Akito or not, you absolutely are wrong for telling her that she shouldn't debate you on the matter of your interpretations and explanations thereof.

So you have kind of missed the point. I don't think anyone who may relate to any sonic characters think that the characters are quite litterally supposed to be them, but they have relatable aspects about themselves and who they are. They are quite literally built to be that way, and people can find relatable allegories for things in media. I just don't think its ok for someone to dictate what is or isn't appropriate for that person or persons to relate to. Particularly those in some marginalized groups who may see something in someone other perspectives do not.

Example: Mai Shirinui ( i think i spelled that right ) ninja boob lady from KOF. I don't like her, I think she's a boring excuse for fan service and a budget chun li. However she's an extremely popular character and one that's really popular with women. There's a lot of women who legit think mai is cool and when they do their popularity contests mai tends to rate higher with women than men. They see something in her that I don't. And if they choose to identify with that character in someway who am I to dictate whether that's a good identification point? I personally don't think that's appropriate to do unless the identification point is say actively harmful.

There's nothing to debate. People relate to that character in a way. If she disagrees that its not good or something that's cool but its not really point nor do I think its appropriate for them to decide whether it works or not as a relation point. Whether its interesting or even good to explore I think are more arguable points.  I was just pointing it out as a reason why in official works and in fanworks shadow being a guy on the outs sort of finding his own way tends to be popular set up for him.

Also I don't think anyone up has tried to blow up a planet , however I don't think you need to have done so to relate to a well written character who has. Just how writing woks.

 

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I could write a long ass book on the amount of things you've tried chase moderators out of discussions with because trying to argue with you is seemingly inherently something that "reflects poorly on moderation."

I think this is a very particular situation that requires tact and respect. And I believe I'm giving it that, all I ask is you do the same.

 

 

 

 

[Blacklightning]

Writing quality aside, it's worth remembering that Mephiles is pegged as a character that prefers to manipulate first and personally intervene only when that fails - and one of the cornerstones of manipulation is lying. This wouldn't be the first time lied to try to get someone on his side, or even the most notable, lest we forget Silver was an antagonist in this game purely because he believed Mephiles when told Sonic was the cause of the apocalypse. It's also worth remembering that we only have Mephiles's word that this ever happened in any timeline, and nothing more. Granted, Omega does at one point claim he's the one who captured Shadow in the future, but that's only after a 1 on 1 confrontation with Mephiles, who for all we know simply told Omega that to manipulate him too. So no, I don't think this ever had a chance of happening for real.