"The world will betray you Shadow"

[StaticMania]

13 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

...who for all we know simply told Omega that to manipulate him too.

There was honestly no narrative purpose for Mephiles to tell E-123 Omega that.

The cutscene plays out: Omega is shooting Mephiles relentlessly, Mephiles says "You know, you're the one who captures Shadow in the future." Omega continues shooting, then Mephiles leaves.

Shadow and Rouge show up right as, Omega says "Shadow, I'm the one who captured you for the humans" and Shadow feels sad.

There's no reason for any of this to happen. Then 3 cutscenes later, Shadow says the thing people like with no real lead up.

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

This is a subject that's a bit more sensitive than " I like the funny colored hedgehog because he hit thing good " and while it may involve said funny colored hedgehog its about how this may relate to people in some ways that require a bit more tact. I don't know about you but I don't engage every conversation I have in life the same, sometimes a change in cadence is needed. I feel like that's a fair take?

You ascribed your personal experiences to a piece of fiction in a way that you can relate with it, that isn't a problem. The problem is that you're also using your personal experiences to shut down any criticism of that piece of fiction because you don't have a better argument and then you have the gall to start throwing around moderator status into this discussion when you're called on it. The only tactless person in this discussion I'm seeing is you.

 

Now I know I'm speaking to a brick wall here, but since I can already predict how you're going to read my post I'm just going to tell you to go complain to an admin if you don't like me saying this or if you have such a problem with people with moderator status participating in discussions and not letting you go unchallenged at every turn.

[DabigRG]

34 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Writing quality aside, it's worth remembering that Mephiles is pegged as a character that prefers to manipulate first and personally intervene only when that fails - and one of the cornerstones of manipulation is lying. This wouldn't be the first time lied to try to get someone on his side, or even the most notable, lest we forget Silver was an antagonist in this game purely because he believed Mephiles when told Sonic was the cause of the apocalypse. It's also worth remembering that we only have Mephiles's word that this ever happened in any timeline, and nothing more. Granted, Omega does at one point claim he's the one who captured Shadow in the future, but that's only after a 1 on 1 confrontation with Mephiles, who for all we know simply told Omega that to manipulate him too. So no, I don't think this ever had a chance of happening for real.

Well that's the thing about Mephiles and some other vile villains--they love to tell half-truths in lieu of outright lying.

Plus, in his defense, I doubt he sealed Shadow in whatever that pink field was and given he himself is shaped like Shadow, it's possible he made a meaningful appearance like he did when Shadow noticed him near the portal that provided a convenient excuse for the humans to go after him.

13 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

There was honestly no narrative purpose for Mephiles to tell E-123 Omega that.

The cutscene plays out: Omega is shooting Mephiles relentlessly, Mephiles says "You know, you're the one who captures Shadow in the future." Omega continues shooting, then Mephiles leaves.

Shadow and Rouge show up right as, Omega says "Shadow, I'm the one who captured you for the humans" and Shadow feels sad.

There's no reason for any of this to happen. Then 3 cutscenes later, Shadow says the thing people like with no real lead up.

Actually there is: to show how fucked up the future gets, have Rouge promise that she'll stick by Shadow's side if it comes to that, and give Shadow something to meaningfully shut down Mephiles' talking.

Also because Mephiles is a  theatrically malevolent dick.

[StaticMania]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Actually there is: to show how fucked up the future gets, have Rouge promise that she'll stick by Shadow's side if it comes to that, and give Shadow something to meaningfully shut down Mephiles' talking.

Also because Mephiles is a malevolent dick.

Ignoring the fact that Omega is sentient in his own right, it seems like something he'd easily shoot down due to his whole personality...but we gotta focus on Shadow's "development".

[DabigRG]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Ignoring the fact that Omega is sentient in his own right, it seems like something he'd easily shoot down due to his whole personality...but we gotta focus on Shadow's "development".

You can go either way on that. Omega might've done it willingly out of necessity, been forcibly reprogrammed to do so by whoever, or simply took a third option of gettinging Shadow to turn himself in and history dressed it up as him taking him down.

That's just sorta how these possible timeline/future stories--you gotta skip over quite a bit of integral setup and rational motivation to get to the cool stuff. 

It is a bit of a wasted angle, though, I'll agree.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Even if you were to take the notion a face and Mephiles was actually being truthful, the main component to Shadow being sealed 200 years in the future—as stated by Mephilies himself—was that Iblis was roaming and rampaging the world.

Without that factor, that renders the initial premise null and unlikely. Not that it’s impossible, but you’d need some Flames of Disaster-level threat and a possible link to Shadow being involved or connected for it to be a thing again.

The thought is interesting in regards to “what if Shadow fell to the level of a scapegoat.” Maybe he’d go Mewtwo again and fight the world that seeks to bring him down to the bitter end and the consequences that would entail—blaming the wrong person who has some power to help stop the threat, leading to more and more desperation as the crisis continues.

I’d imagine it to be basically Pokémon’s Mewtwo Strikes Back meets Megaman Zero.

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, Zaysho said:

You ascribed your personal experiences to a piece of fiction in a way that you can relate with it, that isn't a problem. The problem is that you're also using your personal experiences to shut down any criticism of that piece of fiction because you don't have a better argument and then you have the gall to start throwing around moderator status into this discussion when you're called on it. The only tactless person in this discussion I'm seeing is you.

 

Now I know I'm speaking to a brick wall here, but since I can already predict how you're going to read my post I'm just going to tell you to go complain to an admin if you don't like me saying this or if you have such a problem with people with moderator status participating in discussions and not letting you go unchallenged at every turn.

If that's what you think I'm doing ,I dont think I can help that. But I'm not doing that, I'm only talking about people personally relating to the character.

 

If you want to say that aspect the thing they are relating to isn't good or isnt valuable or there is something more valuable. That's cool! I would genuinely like to have that argument,  I want to know what y'all find valuable or a story with being told in lieu of this or why you dont think its valuable.

 

I was just saying that I don't think it's right to make judgement calls on how someone relates to something. I stand by that being a fair stance to have

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I was just saying that I don't think it's right to make judgement calls on how someone relates to something. I stand by that being a fair stance to have

Sure that's a fair stance but that doesn't really mean anything in this discussion because that's not what anyone was doing. While I admit I'm speaking for Tara at this time, when she pointed out she found your reading to be a stretch and had no bearing on the source material (which she actually cited--you somehow failed to bring that much to the table in your other posts), it wasn't some judgment call telling you you're wrong for finding something to relate to the character in that way. In fact, I re-read her post and that's not what she said at all!

16 hours ago, Tara said:

I also think comparing Shadow to a persecuted minority is a bit of a stretch.  Like I wouldn't put it past Sega to try to code him that way in a retrospective way, but the comparison is so flimsy that I think it's kind of belittling to the people he would be attempting to represent.  You could maybe make the case for it in SA2 where the only thing we really know is that G.U.N. feared what would happen if Shadow were somehow given to the wrong hands, which speaks to the sort of self-fulfilling prophecy of prejudice.  But in Shadow, nobody really disliked Shadow except the G.U.N. Commander (to the point where even his subordinates were like "wait wut") and that wasn't because different but because he was associated with a childhood trauma (which is also pretty stupid, don't get me wrong), and as the game progressed, people only disliked/feared him because he was actually doing violent things.  And in '06, the thought that humans would eventually betray Shadow again was something suggested by Mephiles to manipulate Shadow and little else.  Otherwise, humans play pretty much no role in Shadow's story in that game.

I also think it's kind of weird to view Shadow as a subject of discrimination when he is the ONLY character that is scrutinized in this manner.  Sonic himself, as well as all his friends, never experience such persecution.  So it just comes across as hollow lip service.  At least in Sonic X, for all its faults, had the general perception of Sonic and his friends teeter a la X-Men.  But then, when the subject of human/animal relations is brought up, Shadow is conspicuously absent, so it's kind of moot.

Sure, you may not have been using a direct comparison, more just quick look at how a character can resonate with certain groups. That is actually fair! What isn't is you forcing this headcanon and then trying to make the claim that anyone arguing with you is trying to invalidate your or someone else's experience (it isn't).

It has nothing to do with it not having value, because that's not what was said, but I also don't believe you're actually interested in having a good faith discussion based on personal experience.

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Sure that's a fair stance but that doesn't really mean anything in this discussion because that's not what anyone was doing. While I admit I'm speaking for Tara at this time, when she pointed out she found your reading to be a stretch and had no bearing on the source material (which she actually cited--you somehow failed to bring that much to the table in your other posts), it wasn't some judgment call telling you you're wrong for finding something to relate to the character in that way. In fact, I re-read her post and that's not what she said at all!

 

3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Sure, you may not have been using a direct comparison, more just quick look at how a character can resonate with certain groups. That is actually fair! What isn't is you forcing this headcanon and then trying to make the claim that anyone arguing with you is trying to invalidate your or someone else's experience (it isn't).

So I don't think I tried to force my perception on anyone. Or at least I wasn't trying to. I don't think I ever stated or implied this is the read. I suggested that this type of character tends to be read that way by certain people. But I don't really think that's forcing anything just a suggestion as to why it pops up so much. The original discussion was about redundancy. I was just suggesting while some of it may feel retreaded for certain people stories like that are kind of cool and they can sometimes see bits of themselves in the character. Relatable stuff.

I don't suggest that she is trying to invalidate someone's experience by not caring for the redundant element. However I am critical of lines like these

Quote

I also think comparing Shadow to a persecuted minority is a bit of a stretch.  Like I wouldn't put it past Sega to try to code him that way in a retrospective way, but the comparison is so flimsy that I think it's kind of belittling to the people he would be attempting to represent. 

To bring up my KOF mai example again, I am not a woman. While I think mai is about as relatable as... a fruit. But if women wish to identify and relate to mai, then that's how they express themselves. And I don't think its my place to tell them that it would belittle them to compare themselves to her. Or that their comparison in the first place is a stretch. That's them, and in this situation its myself and others.

Like if ya'll just don't care about that comparison point and just don't like it as a narrative device, cool beans. Stuff like this is what i take umbrage with it.\

 

 

[Tara]

At first, I thought maybe you were trying to liken Shadow's fandom to, say, the way gay men often gravitate towards Disney villains in spite of the fact that they are offensive stereotypes, which is something I'm not only okay with, but support.  Namely because those people also wouldn't deny that they are personalized attachments and are completely self aware that any relation to the characters is an extrapolation of the text, not what is deliberately put into it.  But no, the argument you're making is even worse.

Under this same logic, you must also take umbrage with people who criticize...

• Bright
• Crash
• Rent
• Powerpuff Girls 2016
• My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, season 8
• The Lorax 2013
• Pretty much any live action Disney remake in the past ten years.
• Modern Simpsons episodes
• Family Guy

...which all either directly or indirectly attempt to tackle serious issues but are notoriously panned for doing it in an asinine manner that ranges anywhere from well meaning but misguided to actually invoking the issues they're attempting to disassemble, because I'm sure there are people who will say that they relate to all these works and sincerely believe that they helped them through a difficult time in their lives.  And they're free to do so.  But I'm also free to criticize their reading and interpretation, and while I've never met any Shadow fans who see him as relatable as it pertains to their experiences as a minority, I'm sure most would be inclined to agree because that's how media discussion works.  Particularly when you take issue with a statement like "that comparison is a bit of a stretch" which is not only... quite mild, I have to say, like I legitimately don't think I could have worded it any nicer if I donated a brand new car to every single person who read it... but also silly when most people would agree that a comparison is flimsy when the initial statement is justified in things that literally never happened in the actual games to begin with as an explanation for why the examination of Shadow's relationship with humans is not only a good plot point worth repeating but also an important one socially.

Or as a counter example, I love Steven Universe.  It's not even like my favorite cartoon or anything, but I've definitely shed a few tears over episodes that have hit far too close to home, and so I have a lot of treasured memories for this show.  And I will cling to those characters and stories because they mean a lot to me.  At the same time, there are also people that have had similar if not identical experiences to me that think the way the show handles it is cheap, artificial, bad lip service, and may find my interpretation of it to be a disservice to the actual issue, that my relation to it is based on questionable premises.  And while I think I'm in a huge majority of people who may disagree with those people, they are ABSOLUTELY in their right to say that.  I do not take offense to that.  In fact, my views on the show have shifted because of those dissenting views.  Not in the sense that I no longer like the show because I still love it today, so much as "oh, that is an issue I can empathize with" or "yeah, you know maybe the show could have handled this better."

People can like Shadow, if they can use him to relate to their personal struggles as they desire.  That's great.  I encourage that as long as it's done in a healthy and positive manner.  But to say that I or anyone else can not criticize it or find it lacking in actual merit is frankly ridiculous and is not conductive to a good faith discussion on the merits of a story.  Like, this whole conversation could have just ended with "well, Shadow means this to me, it's okay if you don't see it that way."

With all that said, this thread was not meant for sociopolitical debate, and I feel like we've allowed it to weigh this topic down long enough.  So I kindly suggest we move on, so that people who actually want to enjoy what this thread was actually intended for can continue to do so.  That and I'm not really interested in discussing this any further.

[Multikaris]

I feel like vice-versa occurred; Shadow betrayed the world, shirking his responsibilities, running off from GUN with his friends, and acting overall nastier. He’s also responsible for Infinite, and seemed to do nothing regarding Dark Gaia. 

[thumbs13]

1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

He’s also responsible for Infinite.

Because everyone knows the natural response to being kicked in the face and called names is to become a reality warper and gain weird cube powers. 

Eggman is responsible for Infinite. All Shadow did was hurt his pride.

[DabigRG]

7 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Because everyone knows the natural response to being kicked in the face and called names is to become a reality warper and gain weird cube powers. 

Eggman is responsible for Infinite. All Shadow did was hurt his pride.

I think what Miracle Matter is saying is that Infinite likely wouldn't have given his body to science if he didn't fuckin snap there.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

I think what Miracle Matter is saying is that Infinite likely wouldn't have given his body to science if he didn't fuckin snap there.

Yeah, but then Sonic is responsible for Eggman returning. Or Batman is responsible for Joker (according to "red hood" origin". And maybe Superman should feel blame every time Luthor kills someone to spite him.

Heroes can't (or rather should not) feel guilt over bad guys actions, just because they were one of many variables that pushed villain to do it. Bad guy is to blame for doing bad.

Or to put it shorter: She-ra/Catra.

[DabigRG]

True.

Of course, some villains were dicks to begin with and it's just that Shadow and in some continuities Batman gave em that extra push into being a bigger threat.

[Multikaris]

2 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

Because everyone knows the natural response to being kicked in the face and called names is to become a reality warper and gain weird cube powers. 

Eggman is responsible for Infinite. All Shadow did was hurt his pride.

No. Shadow was responsible for him coming to Eggman, ergo, he’s responsible for Infinite. 

[Diogenes]

Eggman already had the Phantom Ruby. If he didn't end up having Infinite use it, he'd have found someone or something else.

[Sega DogTagz]

You always have to temper causation with common sense. Just because Shadow played a role in the sequence of events should not make him feel guilt or remorse for undertaking that action. He performed what for all intents and purposes was a public good, and someone else came along, took advantage of the situation and mutated it into something bad. That's not on Shadow. 

[thumbs13]

2 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

No. Shadow was responsible for him coming to Eggman, ergo, he’s responsible for Infinite. 

He was working for Eggman the whole time. Eggman hired him to guard whatever place they were in.

And Infinite agreed to work with Eggman before he got beaten up by Shadow, anyway.

[Multikaris]

On 1/27/2020 at 3:23 PM, thumbs13 said:

He was working for Eggman the whole time. Eggman hired him to guard whatever place they were in.

And Infinite agreed to work with Eggman before he got beaten up by Shadow, anyway.

Still, Shadow pummeling him triggered the desire for more power. Ergo, Shadow is responsible for Infinite’s uprising.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

Still, Shadow pummeling him triggered the desire for more power. Ergo, Shadow is responsible for Infinite’s uprising.

Mignarok, people like you are the reason why so many heroes can't stop angsting.

Did Spider-man created Venom?

Have Reed Richard's actions lead to dr Doom turning to dark side?

Is Batman responsible for Joker?

Should She-ra blame herself for Catra's doings?

Is Splinter guilty of provoking Oroku Saki to become Shredder? (2012 cartoon)

Did dr Light and dr Willy... I run out of ways to same sentence. You get the point.

In some vague sense yes, heroes CAUSED creation of the villain. But I can't agree on the word "responsible". Villains are responsible for their own actions. Hero can feel bad if they want, that's what makes them good guys, but  ultimately they can't be held responsible for madman's actions.

I mean, Sonic beat up and made fun of every Zeti. Why Zomzom couldn't get pissed and yell "I'M NOT FAT", go on 80s montage and returned with pecs from Jojo Bizzare adventure, Doomsday Laser bigger than ARK an hatred for anything on letter "S"?

[StaticMania]

Beating up someone who's already evil isn't really the same as gonna turn heads...

He didn't create Infinite, but he IS the reason Infinite did what he did.

[Shadowlax]

 

I think part of the issue with using infinite that way is. Its clearly not the original intent of the narrative of that character. The shadow DLC is some last minute stuff and is kinda stapled on, and is tonally different from the rest of the game and has no bearing on its narrative. Now usually I'm a guy who says you need to rely on what's actually in the game or what's happening in the franchise to determine the lore and story. However this is an example where the story is so poorly put together that the behind the scenes is nessicary. And simply put, given that the rest of the story doesn't see him acknowledging shadows existence besides summing clones of him and others he had not met like chaos. It's not a reasonable thing to suggest shadow was responsible, because the story itself doesn't present it as reasonable. His temperament towards shadow is the same as his temperament towards the other villains,  which is nothing. It was stapled on at the end to push him via association. " hey is standing next to cool character saying simular stuff isnt he cool". The obfuscation of narrative has been removed from the discussion , and I think it says a lot that outside if this forum and a single reddit post I have heard no one make the argument for that seriously. It seems as through not taking him seriously or understanding how lacking the story is a lot of people just dont buy it.

But speaking of not taking infinite seriously lets get to second reason why that doesn't work as a justification,  primarily sonic exists not in a vacuum but in greater context, and there are multiple characters who used to work for eggman in some capacity. While not saying infinite had to be good guy, he could have still been bad. Infinite got hit three times and decided to be a dictators weapon. Other people have gotten beat up worse,shadow reentered the atmosphere with a weakened body and didn't do this. To suggest this one time that's no different than another, because of a stapled on last minute dlc that has no difference in tone in terms of the violence than any other sonic thing is...you cant. It just doesn't work. Greater context exists it makes character look weaker, rather than anything interesting regarding shadow. Also a related issue that proves the point, the jackal squad. Most people I saw didnt even humor the notion shadow killed them because it didnt fit shadows character, heck even in forces. They are dead,  much like shadow's minor involvement in infinite because its narratively convient , and generally you shouldn't be talking about narratives in these terms. Plenty of stories have plot points that don't exactly line up make sense because it contributes to a greater theme. Sa2 is one of my favorite game period and it does it, alot. However,  there's a narrative through line that you can follow that obfuscates the audience from just seeing narrative tools, see characters, plots things like that. But forces lacks that. There is so little connective story tissue all you can see is the bones. And the bones exist to push a character in the case of infinite, and to conveniently remove the jackal squad. When something isn't even bothering to be good enough to work, why would the audience take it seriously.

But onto my last point about this, I promise I'm done. We live in a world, you and me, and have context. Let's say you ignore the other two points and choose to take the story at face value. It still doesn't make it look like shadow is at fault it makes infinite look like a whiney bitch. Removed from his dlc infinite is a contextless generic overconfident character.  With the dlc he comes across as a character who has no interest in working hard or improving and will blame others for his failure. And I think that is what they were trying to do with his character. It isnt shadows fault, anyone could have beat him up and he would have ended up the same.

 

 

[Almar]

He (Infinite) started as Eggman's bioweapon. They went with the loser mercenary backstory to force a connection with Shadow I'm sure.

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Mignarok, people like you are the reason why so many heroes can't stop angsting.

Did Spider-man created Venom?

Have Reed Richard's actions lead to dr Doom turning to dark side?

Is Batman responsible for Joker?

Should She-ra blame herself for Catra's doings?

Is Splinter guilty of provoking Oroku Saki to become Shredder? (2012 cartoon)

Did dr Light and dr Willy... I run out of ways to same sentence. You get the point.

In some vague sense yes, heroes CAUSED creation of the villain. But I can't agree on the word "responsible". Villains are responsible for their own actions. Hero can feel bad if they want, that's what makes them good guys, but  ultimately they can't be held responsible for madman's actions

Well the first is a definite no. 

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I mean, Sonic beat up and made fun of every Zeti. Why Zomzom couldn't get pissed and yell "I'M NOT FAT", go on 80s montage and returned with pecs from Jojo Bizzare adventure, Doomsday Laser bigger than ARK an hatred for anything on letter "S"?

Because he's too busy eating?

Thats not a bad point though, as unlike Zazz, Zomom had little to no interest in fighting Sonic and in fact, seemed nervous about doing so. Before the end, he just wanted to get back at Eggman and later thought it'd be cathartic to see Sonic have to wail on Tails instead.

5 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Beating up someone who's already evil isn't really the same as gonna turn heads...

He didn't create Infinite, but he IS the reason Infinite did what he did.

He likely wouldn't have gone that far otherwise.

3 hours ago, Almar said:

He (Infinite) started as Eggman's bioweapon. They went with the loser mercenary backstory to force a connection with Shadow I'm sure.

I mean, essentially.

Since they wanted to have Shadow playable again and his involvement generally included a greater connection or understanding of what's going on than Sonic, they had to do that somehow.