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Scritch the Cat

At this point, what is keeping other characters from being playable in the main modern Sonic games?

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11 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

Randomly? It’s been a problem with the games since Colors.

Actually even earlier with Sonic 4. Forces and Mania still mostly count outside of strictly gameplay-related contexts, but it's a start.

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16 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

IMHO, the fanbase. Believe it or not, SEGA actually listens. How do you think we got the custom character in Sonic Forces? The fanbase used to complain about Sonic's "shitty friends". Now that they've been reduced to cheerleaders and spectators, all of a sudden the fandom wants them to be playable again.

Who the hell was asking for a lazy and limiting fan character creator for these games?

Or do you mean to say that the avatar was made in response to people wanting other playable characters again? 
 

Either way, what an awful way to “listen to the fans”.

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2 hours ago, Strong Guy said:

Who the hell was asking for a lazy and limiting fan character creator for these games?

Or do you mean to say that the avatar was made in response to people wanting other playable characters again? 
 

Either way, what an awful way to “listen to the fans”.

It seems essentially as if SEGA was trying to do something that some fans wanted while avoiding doing anything that other fans didn’t.  On paper and in a vacuum, it makes sense; what better way to ensure that gamers don’t hate the extra playable character than by letting them design the character how ever they like?  But a lot got lost in translation, because as you said, there were big limits.  Personality-wise, a character that doesn’t even talk or emote in any specific way isn’t likely to be hated, that character can’t really be very likable, either.  Gameplay-wise, the characters abilities were just what the game said they were; no real ability to choose.

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1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

It seems essentially as if SEGA was trying to do something that some fans wanted while avoiding doing anything that other fans didn’t.  On paper and in a vacuum, it makes sense; what better way to ensure that gamers don’t hate the extra playable character than by letting them design the character how ever they like?  But a lot got lost in translation, because as you said, there were big limits.  Personality-wise, a character that doesn’t even talk or emote in any specific way isn’t likely to be hated, that character can’t really be very likable, either.  Gameplay-wise, the characters abilities were just what the game said they were; no real ability to choose.

And the body shapes of the characters looked off, too. 

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One would think that after Unleashed SEGA would realise that the issue was more related to gameplay 

 

Although I do think that the inability of Critics and Fans to express themselves properly in the 2000s was a huge part of the issue

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On 2/7/2020 at 12:59 PM, Strong Guy said:

Who the hell was asking for a lazy and limiting fan character creator for these games?

Or do you mean to say that the avatar was made in response to people wanting other playable characters again? 
 

Either way, what an awful way to “listen to the fans”.

My thought was "Sonic OCs are popular online (majorly on deviantart), so SEGA thought people would enjoy it if they could play as their OCs". Except then they didn't want them to look as cool as Sonic so they look out of place. Funny enough the Sonic recolors in Colors are probably more accurate to some OCs, at least the Sonic recolor based ones.
 

4 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Although I do think that the inability of Critics and Fans to express themselves properly in the 2000s was a huge part of the issue

As much as I get annoyed looking back on it, I can see why it happened that way. Many critics turned on Sonic hard in the 2000s.

Reading the original review of SA2 by IGN shocked me, as pretty much my whole time online the critics hated Sonic and would constantly complain that he wasn't his Classic self anymore. When I read the reviews for Sonic 4 it was almost creepy how similar all the different outlets were saying the same thing. At least to me, I never felt in line with the critics. I had played the Classic Sonic collections on GameCube, but to me Modern was my favorite. I enjoyed playing Classic, but I could never get the hang of it compared to the 3D games. I'm only including this because it felt like to me that critics were against anything Modern Sonic once he went multiplat.

Quote

"Although Sonic Adventure had featured a few problems, I still regard it as one of the best Dreamcast games. The visuals are still among the best and very few games today can still match the visual splendor of the original Sonic Adventure. Putting the well-known 2D Sonic into a 3D world is no easy task, and Sonic Team did a great job with Sonic Adventure. Most of all, the incredible amounts of extras, boss encounters, and the epic level of gameplay that got bigger and better as you got farther into the game" - IGN in 2001

Quote

"The bulk of your time will be spent playing through Sonic's campaign. But as you play, you'll meet various, er, pals from Sonic's menagerie, including Amy, Tails, and Knuckles, which you can then guide through their own little journeys through the horrors of broken 3D platforming. ... While the upcoming Sonic Colors has a great deal of promise and Sonic 4 - Episode 1 is being developed as a return to the conventions of Sonic 2 from the Genesis era, Sonic Adventure is, in hindsight, the culmination of everything that made Sonic an also-ran to Nintendo's flagship mascot -- all (poorly aged) flash, and very little substance. Even as a curiosity, I would advise you give Sonic Adventure a wide berth." - IGN in 2010

Quote

"It brings the series back to 2-D. It gets rid of Sonic's crappy friends and makes the iconic blue critter the only playable character. Cute little birdies even pop out of enemies when they explode, just like in the good old Genesis days." - Sonic 4 Review by Wired

"This is the Sonic the Hedgehog game fans have been begging for: no 3D gameplay, no new animal friends and no bizarre hedgehog-human romance. It's all blue skies from here! Or is it?" - Sonic 4 Review by Kotaku

"But then it all went wrong. The Sonic series failed to make a successful transition into the brave new 3D world. Seeing our hero struggling round environments he wasn't designed to inhabit was painful, like watching your Grandma try to find a nice comfy pair of slippers in Urban Outfitters. SEGA tried to paper over the cracks by introducing new characters, as if a slutty rabbit and a stupid crocodile would be enough to distract us from the truth. Then there were the experiments with role-playing and racing. Most recently, there was some ridiculous nonsense about werehogs and an attempt to shoehorn Sonic into the world of Arthurian legend. Inexplicable." - Sonic 4 Review by EuroGamer

"Sega is giving the people what they want. Sonic's lips are sewn together tightly, his pals have been laid to rest in a shoebox somewhere in the garden, and the world is nice and two-dimensional again. This is the 16-bit sequel you've been craving for sixteen bitter years, one that sidesteps every pitfall introduced in Sonic's 3D outings. Finally, the cycle is over!" - Sonic 4 Review by Engadget

I understand now that many of the 2000s games were flawed, but I still find myself preferring that flawed era versus the last decade. When critics were praising how Sonic was so great now because they got rid of his annoying friends "that no one ever liked" anyways, I felt distanced as a fan. I had played Gems collection so I knew even in the classic era there was still games that featured other characters besides Sonic, and I enjoyed them a lot. Even many other fans were agreeing with the critics and how much they hated Sonic's friends. To this day there are people who insist Adventure was never good and that nothing good came out of Modern Sonic at all. Then some try to insist that fans never said that. It's one thing to disagree, but I don't really care for when people speak as if their opinion is fact.

Anyways what I'm trying to say is back then I don't think anyone saw Mania as an option. They thought Classic was done, and that they couldn't have both at the same time, even if Mario was able to somewhat do so. Then again I doubt anyone could have foresaw a fan game maker getting the official approval from SEGA back then. The difference between the Japanese and English twitter shows this a lot I think. At least for the past few months, the Japan one mostly posts Modern Sonic renders, while the English twitter has been all about Classic Sonic art. I do like it, but it seems to enforce that "Classic is better" mindset some have.

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1 hour ago, DryLagoon said:

My thought was "Sonic OCs are popular online (majorly on deviantart), so SEGA thought people would enjoy it if they could play as their OCs". Except then they didn't want them to look as cool as Sonic so they look out of place. Funny enough the Sonic recolors in Colors are probably more accurate to some OCs, at least the Sonic recolor based ones.
 

As much as I get annoyed looking back on it, I can see why it happened that way. Many critics turned on Sonic hard in the 2000s.

Reading the original review of SA2 by IGN shocked me, as pretty much my whole time online the critics hated Sonic and would constantly complain that he wasn't his Classic self anymore. When I read the reviews for Sonic 4 it was almost creepy how similar all the different outlets were saying the same thing. At least to me, I never felt in line with the critics. I had played the Classic Sonic collections on GameCube, but to me Modern was my favorite. I enjoyed playing Classic, but I could never get the hang of it compared to the 3D games. I'm only including this because it felt like to me that critics were against anything Modern Sonic once he went multiplat.

I understand now that many of the 2000s games were flawed, but I still find myself preferring that flawed era versus the last decade. When critics were praising how Sonic was so great now because they got rid of his annoying friends "that no one ever liked" anyways, I felt distanced as a fan. I had played Gems collection so I knew even in the classic era there was still games that featured other characters besides Sonic, and I enjoyed them a lot. Even many other fans were agreeing with the critics and how much they hated Sonic's friends. To this day there are people who insist Adventure was never good and that nothing good came out of Modern Sonic at all. Then some try to insist that fans never said that. It's one thing to disagree, but I don't really care for when people speak as if their opinion is fact.

Anyways what I'm trying to say is back then I don't think anyone saw Mania as an option. They thought Classic was done, and that they couldn't have both at the same time, even if Mario was able to somewhat do so. Then again I doubt anyone could have foresaw a fan game maker getting the official approval from SEGA back then. The difference between the Japanese and English twitter shows this a lot I think. At least for the past few months, the Japan one mostly posts Modern Sonic renders, while the English twitter has been all about Classic Sonic art. I do like it, but it seems to enforce that "Classic is better" mindset some have.

 

Quote

 as if a slutty rabbit would be enough to distract us from the truth

 

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43 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Cream wasn't in that game...

None of them were. They were giving examples of "Sonic's friends" that they didn't like, the other being Vector. Which is ironic considering Vector was in the Classic era too.

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2 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

I honestly don't know if they confused Cream and Rouge or just cared that little. I had to double look when I read that part.

 

48 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Cream wasn't in that game...

Yeah, seriously.

Guess we know where their mind was.

3 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

Which is ironic considering Vector was in the Classic era too.

The average joe wouldn't know that, though.

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2 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

I honestly don't know if they confused Cream and Rouge or just cared that little. I had to double look when I read that part.

Maybe they're referring to BUNNIE... who wasn't even in any games after Spinball.

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Just now, Miragnarok said:

Maybe they're referring to BUNNIE... who wasn't even in any games after Spinball.

Oh yeah, she would technically fit. 

But you're right that she's very irrelevant to their point.

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Maybe a conflict between nailing a working formula for a modern Sonic game first before exploring micro changes based on the same formula.

Modern has been plagued with debilitating and unpolished gameplay issues up till maybe Unleashed. It also seems to be a mixed opinion on whether or not you actually like the alternate character stories and missions, or if they were just in the way. Or rather, if it would have been better to take the Sonic 3K approach and level design the courses for alternate routes based on the character selected, while changing the core formula (which they had to find) to suite that character etc.

I personally would love to play Knuckles in the way classic Knuckles was again, but modernized. While I didn't exactly hate the "Find the Emerald" approach they took, I'd still rather explore his world again similar to Sonic 3k. Of course, I'm part of the old guard (aka starting with Sonic 2). Apparently my needs for Sonic are pretty different.

As for what was said about Forces,

*sigh*....it was just disappointing is all. Between level length, canned physics, forgettable "story", while trying to include "you" as an active protagonist, but kept you at a distance at pretty much all time (along with an "ok I guess" character creator), it was just another example of two steps back imo. 

Honestly, I wouldn't mind another approach also similar to Sonic Lost World. Probably not with the same spherical level design, but control mechanics were a nice change up to give more control to the player.

🤷‍♂️

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55 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Kicks open the door

What if after all this shit the thing that gets other characters playable is that they get featured in future sonic films and sega wants to capitalize on that

 

 

Sure. Even if Mania, Forces, and Boom set a precedent already, this will definitely be the final straw.

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I know I said somewhere that this movie might break even at the box...

I did not think it would potentially be #1 at it and even do better than Birds of Prey.

This is...actually a pleasant surprise for the franchise.

 

EDIT: How in the fuck did I post this here?!?!?!?

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