At this point, what is keeping other characters from being playable in the main modern Sonic games?

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

On 1/30/2020 at 11:51 AM, Tarnish said:

I know he was very involved with them, but that was 20 years ago. A man can change a lot in that time.

And actions speak louder than words do. They can go on interviews all day long, claiming how they love this franchise, but their output speaks very much otherwise. Broken games, inconsistent characters, wildly inconsistent tones and world building, rehashed ideas, stripped out features, overly simplified game design that feels like a step back from what we had 20+ years ago.

If this is the result from "the only higher up left in the company who still cares that much about the content in the games ", I wonder what we'd get from someone who just doesn't care. Heck, we might even get better stuff from someone like that at this point.

I forgot to respond to this.

None of us knows exactly what happened with the company and sonic team during that time but you'd be surprised at how consistently stressful working conditions can be when a company forces you to meet deadlines repeatedly and to alter developments to meet unrealistic goals and wider platform coverage despite limited experience. Not trying to make excuses for ST but we have heard multiple accounts of their feet being cut out from underneath them during development all throughout the 2000s all because the company wasnt careful with the brand and rushed out products.

From all accounts of events that may or may not have happened over the last 20+ years, I just have a really hard time believing Takashi Iizuka should be the one to blame. In fact he has reportedly been one of the few remaining who really cares about Sonic and what the fans want. He needs fan support if anything and to be shown true appreciation for caring all this time in spite of such a poor mishandling of the brand by the company, and he actually wanting to try other projects. Like, we should really separate out what ST the developer does and SEGA the publisher. Because the latter has had far more control over the series' ultimate destiny.

 

[Shadowlax]

11 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I forgot to respond to this.

None of us knows exactly what happened with the company and sonic team during that time but you'd be surprised at how consistently stressful working conditions can be when a company forces you to meet deadlines repeatedly and to alter developments to meet unrealistic goals and wider platform coverage despite limited experience. Not trying to make excuses for ST but we have heard multiple accounts of their feet being cut out from underneath them during development all throughout the 2000s all because the company wasnt careful with the brand and rushed out products.

From all accounts of events that may or may not have happened over the last 20+ years, I just have a really hard time believing Takashi Iizuka should be the one to blame. In fact he has reportedly been one of the few remaining who really cares about Sonic and what the fans want. He needs fan support if anything and to be shown true appreciation for caring all this time in spite of such a poor mishandling of the brand by the company, and he actually wanting to try other projects. Like, we should really separate out what ST the developer does and SEGA the publisher. Because the latter has had far more control over the series' ultimate destiny.

 

This plus he could also just have not great ideas. Like just because the games turned out kinda wack doesn't mean i'm gonna make the accusation he doesn't care. At least to me, it doesn't feel like that, it does however feel like sometimes or rather often times when you hear iizuka speak on things he wants in sonic or what's sonic is about it feels kind of out of touch and sometimes really bad idea wise.

IIzuka wasn't the only one working on sonic games back in the day a lot of those people who had really cool ideas are gone and that shows.

6 hours ago, Wraith said:

One character in a DLC campaign after 4 games is hardly comparable to, say, Blaze's presence in both Rush games. I'll gladly take what I can get and push for more at the same time.

Yeah i'm not bout sit out here and pretend their output is acceptable. I mean its cool and all but more can be done. Even if you are just doing characters who boost , lets say shadow and blaze and lets throw silver in there too. Those characters have different abilities and those abilities still be used to navigate levels even if they are a bit more linear. Being able to move things out of the way, set fire to open new paths or navigate enemies, or teleporting or stopping time or find paths or to style and speed run. I refuse to look at sonic in some vacuum like he doesn't exist in a greater medium, he does.

 

 

3 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

 

 

And yet, SEGA claimed that Sonic the Hedgehog 4 was also picking up where Sonic & Knuckles left off, yet considered Tails and Knuckles not to be an essential part of that to the disgusting extreme that they boasted about them not being playable.  Dimps, whom they contracted to develop Sonic 4, had made three games with Tails and Knuckles playable without issue.  At least, without MECHANICAL issue.  Still they were’t in Sonic 4 Episode I.  That game and it’s cringeworthy promotion are all the proof anyone should need that SEGA’s opposition to other playable characters isn’t based in valid gameplay concerns.

Holy shit I forgot about this? To be honest I blocked a lot of sonic 4 based stuff out of my mind. Its just kind of a thing that occurred.

[Scritch the Cat]

Sonic 4 is likely the reason posting The Sonic Cycle is banned on these boards.

Meanwhile, in all fairness to SEGA, both Sonic games in 2017 had multiple playable characters, and we haven’t had a solo Sonic game since then to reaffirm that they’re still overall opposed to having other characters playable.  For all I know, nothing is really keeping other characters from being playable but the no existence of a new game for that to happen.

Having said that, it does feel really odd that the custom character, with several experimental gimmicks, was considered a safe experiment, while characters that played more like Sonic weren’t playable.  I haven’t played the game, but it seems like if they’re going to give a character a grappling hook to scale vertical terrain, flight and gliding fit those levels in the same way.  Likewise, the only real excuse I could see not to play as Blaze would be that she’s too similar to Boost Sonic, but that didn’t stop them back in the games that actually invented Boost Sonic.

Also as dead as this horse is, I hold that Sonic Team wasn’t ready to make a game with the premise of SF, and more playable characters would have fit that premise better.  So would a Sonic who actually fights a lot of those tyrannical robots instead of just boosting past them, of course.

[Tarnish]

I'm not even sure they have a battle plan anymore going forward. Maybe it's just "Well, what do our social media pages say today, more or less characters?"

[Eurisko]

On 1/30/2020 at 11:02 AM, Tarnish said:

Hard to tell how much can he be really blamed for the current state of the games, but I certainly don't get the feeling he's the right man for the job.

I agree , I think he's been with the franchise for so long that it's just kind of accepted that what he says goes internally speaking. I mean, making up rules like "modern"characters can't go into classic games........its just stupid. 

If we ever get 'Mania 2' or another classic style game who wouldn't want to see a 2D shadow involved? or something like that? Or even Ray and Mighty in a modern 3D game? He's pigeon holed characters for no real reason.

[Tarnish]

1 hour ago, Eurisko said:

If we ever get 'Mania 2' or another classic style game who wouldn't want to see a 2D shadow involved? or something like that? Or even Ray and Mighty in a modern 3D game? He's pigeon holed characters for no real reason.

If you ask me, the whole "classic" and "modern" thing is just stupid. They are useful words to describe the era/approach/philosophy of the games, but to consider them as separate characters, like each type of game has its own set/version of characters is just so stupid. It kinda destroys the progression of the franchise/character, saying "No, Sonic didn't evolve, the fatass, black eyed version of him still exists as a separate character! Modern Sonic has always been modern Sonic, he was just born that way!"

That's the only credit I'll give Sonic 4, they didn't mess around with the characters design again. They stuck to their current designs, because there's literally no reason they couldn't have a game where the "modern" character designs control/play like the old designs.

[thumbs13]

 I'd argue that classic Sonic was just Sonic in a different artstyle, pre-generations. The CD Flashback in adventure had everyone in their modern designs, which worked for me. Heck, the most recent Mario and Sonic game had the classic designs just be what the characters looked like in 2D and not be their past selves/alternate dimension counterparts, and that was fine. I think Sega overcomplicated things and everything they've done since is just trying to smooth it out.

[StaticMania]

3 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

I think Sega overcomplicated things and everything they've done since is just trying to smooth it out.

You're saying that after Sonic Forces?

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Eurisko said:

I agree , I think he's been with the franchise for so long that it's just kind of accepted that what he says goes internally speaking. I mean, making up rules like "modern"characters can't go into classic games........its just stupid. 

If we ever get 'Mania 2' or another classic style game who wouldn't want to see a 2D shadow involved? or something like that? Or even Ray and Mighty in a modern 3D game? He's pigeon holed characters for no real reason.

On one hand sega is weirdly strict about the things they should not be strict on when using material. Or very particular about direction and details that their audience doesn't like for some greater purpose. That doesn't even really manifest and what happens is they drive shit into the ground so hard that they have to shift gears. To be blunt we are currently on that stage with a great many things in sonic right now.

 

On the other hand, I do not underestimate Sega's ability to George Lucas things that could be totally fine or could just be inoffensive because they really want to add some shit to sonic without putting the work into practical application or consumer research.

So I say this honest, the first hand leads me to believe it may not happen. The 2and hand makes me not want it. I dunno I feel like what would be a very simple "oh hey it's just a different version of the character with a different background that's shorter and fat" and turn into some weird bullshit because they got ideas.

In theory 2d modern characters seem like a slam dunk. You can now effectively have 2 revenue streams for newer characters. Much like MLP , tmnt or transformers having generational variants to sell. I'm all for this idea, I support it. I get more content, they get more money to make it. Seems like a good idea

But can you blame me for being a bit uh, concerned with their ability to execute said ideas

[Multikaris]

7 hours ago, Tarnish said:

I'm not even sure they have a battle plan anymore going forward. Maybe it's just "Well, what do our social media pages say today, more or less characters?"

Here comes Big, Silver, and Vector! We don’t know how they play like yet, but...

[Wraith]

34 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

In theory 2d modern characters seem like a slam dunk. You can now effectively have 2 revenue streams for newer characters. Much like MLP , tmnt or transformers having generational variants to sell. I'm all for this idea, I support it. I get more content, they get more money to make it. Seems like a good idea

But can you blame me for being a bit uh, concerned with their ability to execute said ideas

They seem to be averse to adding modern characters because classic fans don't like them specifically.

Or at least, that's the assumption. I'm pretty sure it's not really true but all I have is anecdotal evidence to go on. 

[Multikaris]

48 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

You're saying that after Sonic Forces?

People missed the overcomplication, so they tried to recapture it. 

[knuckles20]

2 hours ago, Eurisko said:

I agree , I think he's been with the franchise for so long that it's just kind of accepted that what he says goes internally speaking. I mean, making up rules like "modern"characters can't go into classic games........its just stupid. 

If we ever get 'Mania 2' or another classic style game who wouldn't want to see a 2D shadow involved? or something like that? Or even Ray and Mighty in a modern 3D game? He's pigeon holed characters for no real reason.

As much as I prefer actual 3D games, I’d be open for a 2D style game with modern characters provided the game itself is modern styled like Advance or Rush. 
 

As for 3D, Mighty, Ray, hell even Vanilla as long as they’re not a literal duplicate of Sonic or a blank slate.

[Tarnish]

1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

Here comes Big, Silver, and Vector! We don’t know how they play like yet, but...

BUT HEY, THE FANS HAVE SPOKEN!

[Jango]

They complicated the whole 2 Sonics story with Sonic Generations, because that game makes it seem like Classic Sonic/Tails/Eggman are their Modern counterparts younger selves, which wasn't the case before. It was merely aesthetics, the way the characters were drawn before 1999, but their ages was always the same. Both Sonics are 15 years old for example.

One could argue that Forces complicated things even further by throwing that notion in the trash, but I would say the "different dimension" explanation actually makes more sense than calling the classic cast "younger versions" or simply "from the past". 

I don't think Shadow, Blaze or other characters that came after 1999 wouldn't work in, say, Mania 2. Sonic Team mixed aesthetics and character designs before, like Generations. Granted it could look a bit uncanny... we don't think Classic Sonic looks uncanny next to Modern Sonic, but that's because they both already pre-existed. Shadow never had a "classic" design. They would have to simplify his design to fit with the rest... or simply go ahead and make it look out of place, I mean, sometimes contrast is good(?). 

I would rather leave that separated, tho'.

[Multikaris]

7 minutes ago, Jango said:

They complicated the whole 2 Sonics story with Sonic Generations, because that game makes it seem like Classic Sonic/Tails/Eggman are their Modern counterparts younger selves, which wasn't the case before. It was merely aesthetics, the way the characters were drawn before 1999, but their ages was always the same. Both Sonics are 15 years old for example.

One could argue that Forces complicated things even further by throwing that notion in the trash, but I would say the "different dimension" explanation actually makes more sense than calling the classic cast "younger versions" or simply "from the past". 

I don't think Shadow, Blaze or other characters that came after 1999 wouldn't work in, say, Mania 2. Sonic Team mixed aesthetics and character designs before, like Generations. Granted it could look a bit uncanny... we don't think Classic Sonic looks uncanny next to Modern Sonic, but that's because they both already pre-existed. Shadow never had a "classic" design. They would have to simplify his design to fit with the rest... or simply go ahead and make it look out of place, I mean, sometimes contrast is good(?). 

I would rather leave that separated, tho'.

Well, until we get to the 2010s characters, that is. I really don't think characters like Zomom or DoDonpa would fit in at all. Infinite is an exception, though I do understand if he remains strictly a villain.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

They seem to be averse to adding modern characters because classic fans don't like them specifically.

Or at least, that's the assumption. I'm pretty sure it's not really true but all I have is anecdotal evidence to go on. 

I had someone tell me that maybe the case , I do trust that someone. However I was also made aware that a lot of the people who bought mania were more casual folks who like sonic as an entity and kinda dont care and what their characters in. A lot of them children.

From what I understand sega is over estimating the power of the older "I hate modern characters crowd" and that has been the basis of their aversion to adventure era stuff. And other characters.

Though due to recent events they may have to suck it up.

1 hour ago, Jango said:

They complicated the whole 2 Sonics story with Sonic Generations, because that game makes it seem like Classic Sonic/Tails/Eggman are their Modern counterparts younger selves, which wasn't the case before. It was merely aesthetics, the way the characters were drawn before 1999, but their ages was always the same. Both Sonics are 15 years old for example.

One could argue that Forces complicated things even further by throwing that notion in the trash, but I would say the "different dimension" explanation actually makes more sense than calling the classic cast "younger versions" or simply "from the past". 

I don't think Shadow, Blaze or other characters that came after 1999 wouldn't work in, say, Mania 2. Sonic Team mixed aesthetics and character designs before, like Generations. Granted it could look a bit uncanny... we don't think Classic Sonic looks uncanny next to Modern Sonic, but that's because they both already pre-existed. Shadow never had a "classic" design. They would have to simplify his design to fit with the rest... or simply go ahead and make it look out of place, I mean, sometimes contrast is good(?). 

I would rather leave that separated, tho'.

The issue with that people have been making fan versions of modern classic characters for years and they look fine

[Kuzu]

The crowd of people who bitched about Sonic's friends are probably non-existent now. That was a big complaint in the mid to late 2000's, but since then, people simply moved on.

Nowadays either people don't care or are screaming their heads off for them to be playable.

 

 

 

 

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

The crowd of people who bitched about Sonic's friends are probably non-existent now. That was a big complaint in the mid to late 2000's, but since then, people simply moved on.

Nowadays either people don't care or are screaming their heads off for them to be playable.

 

 

 

 

Except for, wait for it... 

 

CRITICS. I don't get why some critics still whine about Sonic side characters for EXISTING. Especially those that give newer and genuinely useless characters nothing but a passing glance. They and they alone may be the biggest wall, and even then, it may erode one day.

[Wraith]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I had someone tell me that maybe the case , I do trust that someone. However I was also made aware that a lot of the people who bought mania were more casual folks who like sonic as an entity and kinda dont care and what their characters in. A lot of them children.

From what I understand sega is over estimating the power of the older "I hate modern characters crowd" and that has been the basis of their aversion to adventure era stuff. And other characters.

 

I just don't see it if it's true, but it might just be the circles I hang in. In my experience people tend to like Sonic characters or not based on their personalities and their introductory games as individual products. There are obviously trends that exist across the 3D games but most don't even judge all or most of the cast in a collective like that.

[thumbs13]

34 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Except for, wait for it... 

 

CRITICS. I don't get why some critics still whine about Sonic side characters for EXISTING. Especially those that give newer and genuinely useless characters nothing but a passing glance. They and they alone may be the biggest wall, and even then, it may erode one day.

I remember some review for TSR got mad that characters like Silver were in a spinoff racing game, which'll always confuse me.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

The crowd of people who bitched about Sonic's friends are probably non-existent now. That was a big complaint in the mid to late 2000's, but since then, people simply moved on.

I don't think they are non existant. I don't think they ever mattered. Kinda

So here's my thought process right.

06 happened, put a sour taste in folks mouths, folks were screaming and meming about friends, but in all honesty while this is anecdotal I was a kid in school when that game came out. While people agreed the game was all types of ass, no one I interacted with around my age group was calling for the removal of friends and the adventure era elements. These were adults older fans who grew up with the older games and wanted a " return to form" they weren't all adults. But a lot of them were particularly the game reviewers and folks like the Grumps and shit.

So Sega thinks that appealing to these would help sonic get back into gear, and it didn't help. Sales over time went down, even with good games and especially with not good ones and the removal of friends didn't actually help the real issues with these games. So  then like mania happens, and those folks come out of the wood work, praise it buy it and are now gone. Because they got the thing they wanted. They mattered, they just largely mattered to a very specific type of the brand and they very much exist. They were just never relevant to the 3d portion largely.

What makes this worse is that sega has effectively alienated a the kids then, and then them as adults now and newer kids trying to appeal to an increasingly aging group of individuals that just wanted 1 thing, and only bought that thing and left.

Quote

Nowadays either people don't care or are screaming their heads off for them to be playable.

And this is the other part of it. That's true. But so many people both story and gameplay people are gone. Not just adventure era people, modern era people are gone. That isn't to say new people can't learn, but like there used to be a bunch of people who had some understanding of what people liked, and iizuka regularly displays that he does not understand. 

They have to be confused. They bet the horse on these people. They bet the hedgehog on these people, and the people didn't give a shit. They only gave a crap about the 1 thing they wanted. They aren't buying a 3d sonic now that potential new 2d game exist. They weren't ever really buying it. The people who were fell off because you alienated them for a decade + . They must be confused, I would love to see the conversation of them coming upon that realization.

15 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 

I just don't see it if it's true, but it might just be the circles I hang in. In my experience people tend to like Sonic characters or not based on their personalities and their introductory games as individual products. There are obviously trends that exist across the 3D games but most don't even judge all or most of the cast in a collective like that.

I have seen it. All types of games and just stuff in general. It isn't the thing they grew up with so they don't like the vibe. It sounds vein and childish but unfortunately a lot of people operate that way. They see different shit and go ew.

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

 I'd argue that classic Sonic was just Sonic in a different artstyle, pre-generations. The CD Flashback in adventure had everyone in their modern designs, which worked for me. Heck, the most recent Mario and Sonic game had the classic designs just be what the characters looked like in 2D and not be their past selves/alternate dimension counterparts, and that was fine. I think Sega overcomplicated things and everything they've done since is just trying to smooth it out.

That was likely down to Technical/resource limitations, as they simply reused Egg Carrier graphics for one part and had the Metal Sonic in a tube float above them.

4 hours ago, Jango said:

They complicated the whole 2 Sonics story with Sonic Generations, because that game makes it seem like Classic Sonic/Tails/Eggman are their Modern counterparts younger selves, which wasn't the case before. It was merely aesthetics, the way the characters were drawn before 1999, but their ages was always the same. Both Sonics are 15 years old for example.

One could argue that Forces complicated things even further by throwing that notion in the trash, but I would say the "different dimension" explanation actually makes more sense than calling the classic cast "younger versions" or simply "from the past". 

I don't think Shadow, Blaze or other characters that came after 1999 wouldn't work in, say, Mania 2. Sonic Team mixed aesthetics and character designs before, like Generations. Granted it could look a bit uncanny... we don't think Classic Sonic looks uncanny next to Modern Sonic, but that's because they both already pre-existed. Shadow never had a "classic" design. They would have to simplify his design to fit with the rest... or simply go ahead and make it look out of place, I mean, sometimes contrast is good(?). 

I would rather leave that separated, tho'.

I do have to consider if characters like Silver or even Cream wouldn't really make the transition between the two game styles.

4 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Well, until we get to the 2010s characters, that is. I really don't think characters like Zomom or DoDonpa would fit in at all. Infinite is an exception, though I do understand if he remains strictly a villain.

Wait, as in putting them in the Classic games? Because...

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Well, until we get to the 2010s characters, that is. I really don't think characters like Zomom or DoDonpa would fit in at all. Infinite is an exception, though I do understand if he remains strictly a villain.

Sonic has proven to be such a flexible premise that I've rarely felt a character didn't fit. 

[G-Force]

5 hours ago, Jango said:

They complicated the whole 2 Sonics story with Sonic Generations, because that game makes it seem like Classic Sonic/Tails/Eggman are their Modern counterparts younger selves, which wasn't the case before. It was merely aesthetics, the way the characters were drawn before 1999, but their ages was always the same. Both Sonics are 15 years old for example.

That's not complicated, that's just tongue in cheek.  Sonic & company's past selves are literally just their old character designs.  That is technically exactly what they used to look like.  That's the joke.  It's like if Mickey Mouse pulled out an expired driver's license, and the picture turned out to be him from Steamboat Willie.  It's not supposed to be taken super seriously.

And then Sonic Forces came along, said "Sonic from another dimension," and now we're divvying up the whole franchise like a huge ass divorce settlement.  It's so stupid.