At this point, what is keeping other characters from being playable in the main modern Sonic games?

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

In Sonic Forces, they were technically bending over forward, but with no room to stand up straight.

If Sonic Forces was trying for me at all they completely fucked that one up. It was the same shit in a vaguely Adventure 2-ish skin

[Scritch the Cat]

6 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Sonic Team actually kept their word concerning other characters not returning until they perfected the gameplay: they were forced to regress to Boost after Lost World. With this set as their idea of “perfect” gameplay, they brought Shadow back. This is also why SLW didn’t have any alternate playable characters of any sort (unless you count the co-op gadgets or bonus stages), just gimmick stages.

Even accepting at face value that boost is their idea of perfect gameplay, why did they dumb it down from its high point in Sonic Generations?

[Kuzu]

Gee, it's almost like trying to appease people who don't actually play the series was a terrible idea, and only served to alienate the people who actually did play these games and the potential people who might have been interested. 

I really fucking hate Sega tbh. This series really doesn't deserve the shit it's been and continues to be put through.

[Dr. Detective]

I mean, yeah. Obviously, kicking them to the sidelines doesn't and didn't solve anything. All it did was validate the complaints from the people who hated the other cast members. When they heard the complaints that they were pointless and insignificant, the normal, proper response isn't usually to go ahead and make sure they're as right about that as possible. Considering the highest rated Sonic game in years is one where you can play as 5 characters, it's pretty safe to say that the logic was a little flawed. 

I can't fully blame the people who were complaining. As was said earlier, it was up to SEGA/Sonic Team to wade through the bullshit and come to the conclusion on which complaints were valid or not and they didn't do that. They just kind of do things and if people like it they do it again regardless of context and make everyone eventually hate it. On the flip-side, if something has promise but it wasn't considered an immediate masterpiece it'll be scrapped and they'll move on to something else.

Like a sick, self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now that it's 2020, I've kind of given up a bit on this as far as the 3D games are concerned. It might happen. Mania might have clued them in on things, Shadow being DLC in Forces was a good sign, and I assume a good number of the fans asking (almost begging) for at least a 3D Tails or Knuckles has had enough time to break through.

I don't know how I'm going to react if this 4-year wait goes by and we end up with another Forces though. Like, I'll never stop being a Sonic fan but I may actually never look forward to a Mainstream 3D Sonic game again. I could actually see that happening. 

The poison for me wasn't the games being bad, it was them being boring and lacking any kind of ambition I guess. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Quote

Am I?

Mania takes place after 3&K, but seemingly before any Adventure era stuff, so the tonally disparate Shadow is out.

Silver might work a little better in spirit, but the gameplay is a different story.

Yeah, you are proving the point, because that’s precisely what I was talking about. We just had two games, Generations and Forces, that did the reverse with Classic Sonic traveling to the modern setting, so there is no logic of “they don’t belong there” that carries water when applying that idea to Shadow and Silver in the Classics.

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

 

They shouldn't care about what these people have to say, though. There's not a whole lot to be done when the people in charge don't know how to take criticism. I shut down a lot of bad criticism for the sake of it, but SEGA should have the common sense to identify it for themselves regardless of whether I care to get involved or not. Bad criticism is everywhere on the internet and I can think of very few franchises that have actually been crippled by it the way Sonic has. We can't be expected to put out all the fires. 

I’m not saying they should, but they unfortunately do. Until someone higher up changes course, and gains the common sense to shift through it, one can only do as much as they’re able to, even if the most ends up being just shutting down the bad critiques when they see them. Either that or give up.

Not that those are your only options (I’ve been at it longer than most people here, so I know the feeling), but you do what you can, really.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Even accepting at face value that boost is their idea of perfect gameplay, why did they dumb it down from its high point in Sonic Generations?

Rumor has it because they originally intended to either follow up Lost World or do something else, but the reception of the former and the timing meant they had to cram both the boost  & Classic into the same engine.

[Diogenes]

35 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I mean, yeah. Obviously, kicking them to the sidelines doesn't and didn't solve anything. All it did was validate the complaints from the people who hated the other cast members. When they heard the complaints that they were pointless and insignificant, the normal, proper response isn't usually to go ahead and make sure they're as right about that as possible. Considering the highest rated Sonic game in years is one where you can play as 5 characters, it's pretty safe to say that the logic was a little flawed. 

The logic was never "all of the bad things in the series are because of the other characters". And it did solve the problem of "there are a whole bunch of characters we don't like taking up time and resources".

12 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Yeah, you are proving the point, because that’s precisely what I was talking about. We just had two games, Generations and Forces, that did the reverse with Classic Sonic traveling to the modern setting, so there is no logic of “they don’t belong there” that carries water when applying that idea to Shadow and Silver in the Classics.

It worked in Generations because it was a special (seemingly) one-time anniversary crossover event. But people hated Classic being in Forces from the moment he was revealed, and he ended up contributing nothing of value to the game. Classic Sonic genuinely did not belong there, and it would've been better for everyone if he hadn't been.

[DabigRG]

23 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Yeah, you are proving the point, because that’s precisely what I was talking about. We just had two games, Generations and Forces, that did the reverse with Classic Sonic traveling to the modern setting, so there is no logic of “they don’t belong there” that carries water when applying that idea to Shadow and Silver in the Classics.

The thing is that was a) supposed to be a one time thing, b) a time travel plot ala part of why I think Silver might be able to squeeze in in hypothesis, and c) just the Classic gameplay with 3d graphics, which is what a portion of the Boost games involve anyway.

[Almar]

5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Hey, you're the one blurring the lines, dud. 

(The what?)

6 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Oh really?

 

http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure_2_-_The_Truth_of_50_Years_Ago...

At first, everyone thought that this far-fetched and reckless plan was undoubtedly a fabrication that couldn't have been thought up by Prof. Gerald's ingenious intellect. The Chaos Drives were based on research results of the Chaos Emeralds, and the experimental attempt to apply that infinite energy to life functions was successful. Shortly thereafter, the project lead to completion of a single prototype. Focusing on its restorative ability, the Ultimate Lifeform's prototype, which was modeled after a lizard, showed signs of phenomenal growth, as well as self-recovery and self-replication. The researchers were overjoyed.

 

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, Almar said:

 

http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure_2_-_The_Truth_of_50_Years_Ago...

At first, everyone thought that this far-fetched and reckless plan was undoubtedly a fabrication that couldn't have been thought up by Prof. Gerald's ingenious intellect. The Chaos Drives were based on research results of the Chaos Emeralds, and the experimental attempt to apply that infinite energy to life functions was successful. Shortly thereafter, the project lead to completion of a single prototype. Focusing on its restorative ability, the Ultimate Lifeform's prototype, which was modeled after a lizard, showed signs of phenomenal growth, as well as self-recovery and self-replication. The researchers were overjoyed.

 

Well no wonder Chaos Chao come to be.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Gee, it's almost like trying to appease people who don't actually play the series was a terrible idea, and only served to alienate the people who actually did play these games and the potential people who might have been interested. 

I really fucking hate Sega tbh. This series really doesn't deserve the shit it's been and continues to be put through.

There's nothing wrong with designing for new people but they should be trying to sell the shit that already appeals to the core, not throwing the core out to try and replace them with an audience that might not even exist. 

 

45 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The logic was never "all of the bad things in the series are because of the other characters". And it did solve the problem of "there are a whole bunch of characters we don't like taking up time and resources".

No it didn't.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

The logic was never "all of the bad things in the series are because of the other characters". And it did solve the problem of "there are a whole bunch of characters we don't like taking up time and resources".

That definitely depends on who you ask. Plus, I didn't say that was the logic anyway (although, the days of  Youtube in the mid-2000s definitely saw a ton of people saying so). 

The main thing I was going on about were the complaints about them being insignificant and pointless, not any of the hyperbolic ones about them being the root cause for every problem ever. I just used Mania as an example of a game that proves that, at the end of the day, there's nothing really to be scared of. Just depends on how it's handled. 

As for the second point, I'm not entirely sure I buy that it did. Even if I grant them the gameplay not being total and complete ass for a while, that didn't last but a few years (although it's still not as bad as it used to be, to be fair) and the recycling of levels and junk seems to have only gotten more noticeable. Games always reuse assets and stuff, and that's fine, but it looks and feels like we've been going through the same areas for quite a while now and dedicating less and less time to doing so. I think the lack of updates to the character models and the way they're animated has and always will be my main sticking point. At this point in time, the way the characters look and move shouldn't remind me of a game that came out in 2008. 

Plus, there's also the fact that back then they were insanely pumping out these games at a faster and more frequent rate then was ever necessary. That period between 2005-2007 was the absolute worst. Before Sonic 06 was even out, I remember there being three other Sonic games being talked about (Sonic 1 GBA, Sonic Rivals, and Sonic and the Secret Rings) and we were still fresh off the heels of Sonic Rush at that time too. Playing as one character certainly didn't help Shadow or Secret Rings in that area.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

 

The logic was never "all of the bad things in the series are because of the other characters". And it did solve the problem of "there are a whole bunch of characters we don't like taking up time and resources".

This is a contradiction if there ever was one...

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

It worked in Generations because it was a special (seemingly) one-time anniversary crossover event. But people hated Classic being in Forces from the moment he was revealed, and he ended up contributing nothing of value to the game. Classic Sonic genuinely did not belong there, and it would've been better for everyone if he hadn't been.

I honestly don’t care if it was supposed to be a one-time anniversary crossover event or people hating Classic Sonic for how little he needed to be in Forces for not contributing to the game, that is no where near the initial point I was making to begin with.

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

The thing is that was a) supposed to be a one time thing, b) a time travel plot ala part of why I think Silver might be able to squeeze in in hypothesis, and c) just the Classic gameplay with 3d graphics, which is what a portion of the Boost games involve anyway.

So the Phantom Ruby or the Time Stones.

Not hard to make use of the mythos to make a story that involves Shadow or Silver being teleported to the Classics a la Generations.

[MasterChaosZX]

On 1/29/2020 at 10:42 AM, Volcan Pacaya said:

That and they're antithetical to a series that stood out from the other games in its genre by taking Super Mario Bros.'s core gameplay mechanics-

Movement, Momentum (0->A->B along gradients), Jump, Trajectory, Gravity, Precision, Bounce, Ability, Coins (Extra Tries), Terrain, Obstacles, Enemies

-and tweaking them so that your now seemingly limitless Momentum gradient was based purely on your Movement interacting with the game's Terrain thanks to its Physics (and, as a necessity, made Rings act as an airbag to cushion the impact of running at such potentially high speeds - and added an Ability to destroy Enemies from the side that's activated by giving up the Ability to increase Momentum via running, while simultaneously increasing Momentum gained from Terrain). The only Boost it needed was Spindash for your initial acceleration because the Physics system caused Sonic to be slow to start on certain Terrain - and Springs to instantly change your direction without losing Momentum.

Boost games devolved into using a prettier version of Super Mario Bros.'s 0->A->B Momentum system with the added drawback of not being compatible with Precision (and consequently Trajectory), which is heavily reflected in the level design.

tl;dr: The Boost games place too much emphasis on being the Sonic X intro at the expense of being Sonic games.

I don't know if I'd say they antithetical. Boost games like Unleashed and Generations can be quite fun  to replay levels trying to achieve faster and smoother runs along with locating the best routes. Learning the obstacles and reacting quickly can be pretty satisfying and I'd say is Sonic-esque.

The just need to be properly designed, Forces designs I'd say felt a bit phoned in and did lean too much on the just boosting through everything, and the alternate routes that WERE there were mostly pointless when straightforward boosting was usually the easiest and fastest option. It was the first game that I actually feel is "boost to win".

[Kuzu]

Let's not beat around the bush, the games have not really had a significant improvement in the last 10 years or so. Now I know the default response to this is (WELLITS NAWT AS BAD AS 06 RITE?) but that's the problem right there, the fact that we're still using a game from 2006 as a benchmark for quality in 2020 is freaking laughable. The fact that the series has had such little improvement that merely being better than a broken game from almost a decade and a half ago is a sign of quality should tell how warped the perception of quality among this fanbase has gotten. 

So of course, it makes perfect sense that people would associate the characters with time and resources that could go elsewhere in the game, and that adding them would take away from that. Sega have pretty much done everything in their power reinforce that mentality, no matter how screwed up the logic behind it actually is. I've pretty much been of the mentality that Sega are intentionally gimping this series in terms of budget for years now, that's the only explanation I can think that makes sense when they release a game like Forces in 2017, when the likes of Breath of the Wild and Super Mario Odyssey are in the same year.  

So at this point, fuck it. If adding Tails or Knuckles would take most of the game's current budget, then just do it. I honestly don't care anymore; I haven't been satisfied with a 3D Sonic game since 2011, and they sure as hell don't seem to be wanting to push any boundaries. So why not just add Tails and Knuckles, who honestly cares at this point if this series produces another game bad game. If our only choices at this juncture is a stale game that plays things safe to the point of being boring or a terrible game  that falters in what it's trying to do, I'd rather they give me something I want out of the latter. I'd appreciate the effort at the very least. 

[Multikaris]

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

If Sonic Forces was trying for me at all they completely fucked that one up. It was the same shit in a vaguely Adventure 2-ish skin

Yeah, they were pulled forward with a tow cable, and never even wanted to just stand up. Even Mania only was able to stand up by a handstand. I'd take the handstand, because from there we could cartwheel back straight.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Let's not beat around the bush, the games have not really had a significant improvement in the last 10 years or so. Now I know the default response to this is (WELLITS NAWT AS BAD AS 06 RITE?) but that's the problem right there, the fact that we're still using a game from 2006 as a benchmark for quality in 2020 is freaking laughable. The fact that the series has had such little improvement that merely being better than a broken game from almost a decade and a half ago is a sign of quality should tell how warped the perception of quality among this fanbase has gotten. 
 

I suppose the saving grace to that is the fact that Forces is at least playable compared to 06, despite 06 having way more ambition.

People are that determined not to let Sega fuck up to the level of 06 again. 

 

[Wraith]

23 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

So at this point, fuck it. If adding Tails or Knuckles would take most of the game's current budget, then just do it. I honestly don't care anymore; I haven't been satisfied with a 3D Sonic game since 2011, and they sure as hell don't seem to be wanting to push any boundaries. So why not just add Tails and Knuckles, who honestly cares at this point if this series produces another game bad game. If our only choices at this juncture is a stale game that plays things safe to the point of being boring or a terrible game  that falters in what it's trying to do, I'd rather they give me something I want out of the latter. I'd appreciate the effort at the very least. 

I don't even like framing all the other pre Colors games as bad anymore. Some of them were shit but others were fine and a few were even pretty good. Experimenting as much as they did didn't ever breed exclusively bad results. 

On the other hand, most of Sonic Team's games have been on a similar level of flavorless since. Consistency is finally here and it's in Monkey Paw form.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't even like framing all the other pre Colors games as bad anymore. Some of them were shit but others were fine and a few were even pretty good. Experimenting as much as they did didn't ever breed exclusively bad results. 

On the other hand, most of Sonic Team's games have been on a similar level of flavorless since. Consistency is finally here and it's in Monkey Paw form.

I agree, but that means nothing if people are going to constantly shout about 06 in my face every time you bring up the older games. 

So I'm just liable to ignore people at this point and just go about my business. I'm kind of tired of being told what I like is "wrong" for the series and that I need to wait for this hyperbolic "perfect" Sonic game that will magically fix everyone's problems before I'm even allowed to want my favorite characters to actually matter again.  I've been told this for over 10 years and I'm tired of listening to people say it. 

[DabigRG]

38 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

So the Phantom Ruby or the Time Stones.

Not hard to make use of the mythos to make a story that involves Shadow or Silver being teleported to the Classics a la Generations.

Don't know bout that first one, but okay. Now we need a justifiable reason for Silver to travel back there, never mind be playable.

27 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Yeah, they were pulled forward with a tow cable, and never even wanted to just stand up. Even Mania only was able to stand up by a handstand. I'd take the handstand, because from there we could cartwheel back straight.

What is this metaphor?

[Multikaris]

5 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

In Sonic Forces, they were technically bending over forward, but with no room to stand up straight.

 

39 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't even like framing all the other pre Colors games as bad anymore. Some of them were shit but others were fine and a few were even pretty good. Experimenting as much as they did didn't ever breed exclusively bad results. 

On the other hand, most of Sonic Team's games have been on a similar level of flavorless since. Consistency is finally here and it's in Monkey Paw form.

With the exception of Forces, which headed right into crap as a result. No wonder they seem unwilling to try, unless forced.

30 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Don't know bout that first one, but okay. Now we need a justifiable reason for Silver to travel back there, never mind be playable.

What is this metaphor?

See the first quote, please.

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Let's not beat around the bush, the games have not really had a significant improvement in the last 10 years or so. Now I know the default response to this is (WELLITS NAWT AS BAD AS 06 RITE?) but that's the problem right there, the fact that we're still using a game from 2006 as a benchmark for quality in 2020 is freaking laughable. The fact that the series has had such little improvement that merely being better than a broken game from almost a decade and a half ago is a sign of quality should tell how warped the perception of quality among this fanbase has gotten. 

So of course, it makes perfect sense that people would associate the characters with time and resources that could go elsewhere in the game, and that adding them would take away from that. Sega have pretty much done everything in their power reinforce that mentality, no matter how screwed up the logic behind it actually is. I've pretty much been of the mentality that Sega are intentionally gimping this series in terms of budget for years now, that's the only explanation I can think that makes sense when they release a game like Forces in 2017, when the likes of Breath of the Wild and Super Mario Odyssey are in the same year.  

So at this point, fuck it. If adding Tails or Knuckles would take most of the game's current budget, then just do it. I honestly don't care anymore; I haven't been satisfied with a 3D Sonic game since 2011, and they sure as hell don't seem to be wanting to push any boundaries. So why not just add Tails and Knuckles, who honestly cares at this point if this series produces another game bad game. If our only choices at this juncture is a stale game that plays things safe to the point of being boring or a terrible game  that falters in what it's trying to do, I'd rather they give me something I want out of the latter. I'd appreciate the effort at the very least. 

While we’re on the subject of warped perceptions, it’s pretty pathetic that including playable Tails and Knuckles ISN’T considered part of the safe, stale option to try.  Adding things like fishing, guns and a love story was indeed risky, and many would say proof that such risks aren’t worth it, but it should have always been apparent that playable Tails and Knuckles were time-tested.

56 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I suppose the saving grace to that is the fact that Forces is at least playable compared to 06, despite 06 having way more ambition.

People are that determined not to let Sega fuck up to the level of 06 again. 

 

The thing is, the main reason SEGA fucked up 06 is that they rushed it out to meet its original deadline after its team size was drastically reduced.  I could buy that after such a debacle, SEGA needed to scale down the next game, but I hope they all were aware that if their attitude towards ambitious Sonic games was just “Don’t make them”, they would never again be seen as something that could rival Mario.

 For all I know, SEGA was okay with that; after all, they had stopped making hardware, and Sonic was by then available on all consoles instead of just a flagship to sell ones SEGA made, so Sonic no longer needed to be a stellar series.  So long as it was passable, or even so long as SEGA had other good sources of income, they were satisfied, so less ambitious Sonic games may have been inevitable.

Again, however, I don’t see anything particularly ambitious about playable Tails and Knuckles, on either a technical or conceptual front.  The thing about all of the things that got the most ire in the Adventure era is that for at least some people, their concepts themselves were bad.  You could put in all sorts of depth for Big’s fishing, adding a bunch of different species, different bait types, different depth levels to aim for to catch certain species, but you’d still get people annoyed at having to go fishing in a Sonic game.  You could give guns great controls with intuitive and believable mechanics for reloading, strafing, jump-strafing and recoil, but you’d still have people thinking it was stupid for Shadow to use them.  You could write a much better love story than was in 06, but you wouldn’t shake many people’s sense that it shouldn’t be in Sonic games.  But to play as Tails and Knuckles shouldn’t be hugely at odds with the core gameplay held as ideal for Sonic, as even when you’re Sonic, he does a lot of vertical movement.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

The thing is, the main reason SEGA fucked up 06 is that they rushed it out to meet its original deadline after its team size was drastically reduced.  I could buy that after such a debacle, SEGA needed to scale down the next game, but I hope they all were aware that if their attitude towards ambitious Sonic games was just “Don’t make them”, they would never again be seen as something that could rival Mario.

What’s worse is that we found out about this fact and it’s fault in poor sales within months in an interview with Shun Nakamura, although I for the love of me can’t recall where at the moment. That it being rushed surprisingly didn’t convince people it wasn’t the inclusion of more characters that mess the game up for the next few years.

So yeah, some hindsight for us.

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

What’s worse is that we found out about this fact and it’s fault in poor sales within months in an interview with Shun Nakamura, although I for the love of me can’t recall where at the moment. That it being rushed surprisingly didn’t convince people it wasn’t the inclusion of more characters that mess the game up for the next few years.

So yeah, some hindsight for us.

As I maintain, SEGA seemed to latch onto the myth that extra characters were what was ruining this series because it let them declare they were making progress fixing things just by taking things away.  Actually working to fix a lot of broken physics and cameras maybe wasn’t something they were easily able to do with Naka and some of his buddies quitting the team.  So they just made this more and more a series that doesn’t have many things TO fix.

[DryLagoon]

11 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I don't know how I'm going to react if this 4-year wait goes by and we end up with another Forces though. Like, I'll never stop being a Sonic fan but I may actually never look forward to a Mainstream 3D Sonic game again. I could actually see that happening. 

The poison for me wasn't the games being bad, it was them being boring and lacking any kind of ambition I guess. 

I think you make another point. Not only has the quality changed for the worse, but then there's more time in between it so it feels even worse. That would be nearly a decade with only 3 main titles (Lost World, Forces, 2021 game). (I'm talking Modern Sonic by Sonic Team, but you can include Mania too if you want)

If it had been like the 2000s I doubt it'd be as a bad as we'd have another title 2 years later or a spin off like Battle or Rush to play. As much as I like TSR, it's not quite scratching the same itch that those spin offs did.

It'd be one thing if the increased time meant better titles, but right now it doesn't seem that way at all. More so after learning most of the time waiting for Forces wasn't actually the main development. Mario can get away with less frequent games because he's usually praised, but it's getting to the point I'd almost prefer the stick to the wall approach if waiting longer just means worse results with less games.