Sonic 30th predictions

[Indigo Rush]

 

50 minutes ago, Drisaac said:

I wonder though, when did the hate bandwagon for Iizuka started ? And why him out of all the people ? Is it because he is considered by many "the face of sonic team" which makes him an easy target to project upon ?

More or less. He officially became the visible head of Sonic Team in 2010 when Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors were being released; while critics lauded those games, plenty of fans hated the lighthearted vibe they went with, and it was pretty easy to put the blame towards Iizuka-san and as the series continued to make weird choices and stick to its guns with the bright and colorful branding and tone, it just reinforced why Iizuka was a "problem" for the series. 

[Tornado]

Colors and S4E1 both had a spectacularly divisive leadup to their releases, and Iizuka made a couple gaffes that inflamed people far more even than they originally were.

 

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I always figured there was some stress behind the scenes, but are the Sega higher ups that big an intrusive pain in the ass?

 

Remember back when Naka decided that enough was enough and left to go do the stuff he actually enjoyed doing? Up to that point Sega had already demanded that they have something to show for E3 2005 when the game had barely started development. Then they demanded that it get a Wii port before Sega actually got Wii development kits, which forced the team to be split in half but still working together as they tried to figure out how to do it. Then the port got cancelled because everyone realized it was fucking stupid, and instead Sega told them that they needed to have a completely different game made for the Wii to hedge their bets on the system being a success (at which point Ogawa was locked out of the development of 06 even though he was the original director). At this point the halved team was still being forced to put stuff together for trade shows and operating on a design document that never got finalized even before things started falling apart with the demands of the Wii version. By the start of 2006 the game was already likely doomed, since they were starting to do voice acting for the story when they weren't sure what parts of the script (and game in general) they would have to cut to get the game out. Then Naka got fed up and left to form Probe just before E3, after months of rumors of him leaving. He took several members of the already downsized team with him.

 

Sega looked at the havoc him leaving had caused on their flagship AAA Sonic game (being hyped as promising a level of production values versus its contemporaries probably unmatched since the Genesis titles) meant to celebrate and commemorate the franchise on its 15th anniversary, in addition to all the turmoil it was already facing by that point.

Sega saw that the game couldn't possibly be ready by its planned release date due to Naka leaving and all of the nonsense that they had dumped on the development team before he had. Even as they sent out people to give interviews and show previews of it to put a brave face on things publicly and show off how great it was at E3 2006, Sega knew it wouldn't even come close. The E3 showing was kind of a disaster compared to how well it had been received the previous year (even though the demo shown there was polished to a higher standard than the actual game was to that point), but luckily for Sega Sony had spent the entire conference preemptively flushing the first three years of the PS3's life down the toilet so it flew under the radar. And Sega demanded another demo for a Microsoft trade show in the fall.

Sega saw that the only time that the game was getting a good showing as if it was improving on its problems was in custom built demo builds with improvements tailor-made for the demos that the team didn't have time to implement into the actual game.

 

 

 

 

 

And they said "why, that's terrible."

 

And then they released the retail version anyway, as originally scheduled.

[Jango]

2 hours ago, Tornado said:

How many of those people work at Sega right now and would be allowed to oversee a Sonic game that Sega throws tens of millions of dollars at? Nakamura?

Didn't stopped SEGA before if you think about. Other studios have made Sonic games for SEGA besides Sonic Team, and said games came out in Japan, even freaking Sonic Boom. So yeah, it's not a rule and I don't think they're AS protective of Sonic as they once were. 

 

2 hours ago, Tornado said:

All do respect to to the highly talented and passionate Christian Whitehead and the Streets of Rage 4 team, but they are not and never will be old guard Sega employees with enough clout to tell Sega (and Sega of Japan in particular) what they don't want to hear when they least want to hear it; to calm the fuck down and shut the fuck up.

If we're considering said veterans at SEGA of Japan are as stubborn and inflexible as you're saying... Which I don't think they are, at least not anymore. I know the stories about Naka and what-not, but are you really that confident that SoJ still acts like that? 

I assume you're using the term "old guard SEGA" as a measure for power of decision, and not experience, right? Because otherwise, I think anyone would like if a new team, such as Whiteheads' or the SOR4 team, like you said, to take a chance with Sonic, and don't get that old meddling from SoJ, if that still happens... Perhaps, now that I think about, Iizuka could actually play a really important role in this -if he's as concerned with quality control as it's believed- by stepping up and telling the people of Japan to shut up like you said, since he's been in this company since the 90's.

2 hours ago, Tornado said:

And I can easily imagine a Iizuka-less Sonic Team being fine with any of that just as easily as anyone can dismiss it as "well any idiot could have thought to have Whitehead make a new game."

Fair enough I guess. 

[Tornado]

37 minutes ago, Jango said:

Didn't stopped SEGA before if you think about.

When? 

 

I don't give a shit about Sega letting some anonymous iOS developer make a shitty gachapon or endless runner game that Sonic is in. Sega giving Dimps six months to reskin Sonic Rush with ugly attempts at remaking Sonic 2 tilesets is also irrelevant. I mean games that actually had development budgets and time put into them. There's only been one time when they've let such a game be developed in such a context, and:

Quote

Other studios have made Sonic games for SEGA besides Sonic Team, and said games came out in Japan, even freaking Sonic Boom.

37 minutes ago, Jango said:

If we're considering said veterans at SEGA of Japan are as stubborn and inflexible as you're saying... Which I don't think they are, at least not anymore. I know the stories about Naka and what-not, but are you really that confident that SoJ still acts like that? 

Sonic Boom was SoA flexing on SoJ as part of the eternal struggle between the two divisions. That's the only 3D game in the series that Sega didn't make themselves, and we now know that SoJ was meddling with its development on a near constant basis even before the game was fully greenlit (as was SoA after the show was greenlit).

 

 

Quote

I assume you're using the term "old guard SEGA" as a measure for power of decision, and not experience, right?

I'm saying "old guard Sega" as a measure for how much influence they have in the company, which at Sega has traditionally had to do with tenure and at some point in the past having done something important.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Jango said:

Perhaps, now that I think about, Iizuka could actually play a really important role in this -if he's as concerned with quality control as it's believed- by stepping up and telling the people of Japan to shut up like you said, since he's been in this company since the 90's.

How convenient that the only thing Iizuka can apparently do to show that he cares is burn up his capital in order to step out of the way and let an outsider take control of the series.

 

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

2 hours ago, Drisaac said:

I wonder though, when did the hate bandwagon for Iizuka started ? And why him out of all the people ? Is it because he is considered by many "the face of sonic team" which makes him an easy target to project upon ?

I've said this a few times before, but the hate bandwagon genuinely confuses me because I see it coming most often from the fans who never liked the direction of Sonic Colors, and prefer Sonic Adventure. (and truth be told I mostly prefer the Adventure games over Colors gameplay wise, but it's always been obvious to me why we needed Colors)

And I just have to remind them, Iizuka is the daddy of those games, they're very much his brainchild. So if you ever want to see a faithful reproduction of them, you should probably not turn on the man who invented them.  If an SA3 ever happens or an SA1 remake, Iizuka will undoubtedly be heavily involved in the direction and approval and will absolutely be one of the primary reasons they are any good. 

And that's not to say he's above criticism. However.... It would be a lot more therapeutic IMO for these fans to take the time to understand how we got here where we haven't seen a game like that since Sonic 06, why this is this case, and a little more about the dynamics of the company during that time, how much responsibility and power Iizuka actually had. Stop shooing him away, for goodness sake.... You really have no idea how much more of a focus grouped disaster of a series Sonic could have become without him around. 

[Kuzu]

Iizuka is currently the oldest and most public face of the series; whether its "fair" or not for him to get so much scorn from the fanbase is irrelevant, because it's going to happen whther we like it or not. Scapegoating is just human nature, and  that's especially true if you lack the maturity to critically think about certain situations, which given the target demographic of young children (And some...emotionally stunted adults online..) is pretty understandable. 

Iizuka is, unfortunately, in one of the most annoying positions for him to be in; when things are well, nobody really has anything to say about him, but let things go south like they've been for the past few years, and you have to hear ALL of the bile and insults and it's so damn exhausting. Iizuka being creatively bankrupt is a completely understandable outcome when  you've had to deal with this series for as long as he has and it's extremely...."passionate" fanbase. 

Iizuka is probably among the hardest working individuals in Sega for Sonic, as he's one of the few who never jumped ship and stuck around when most others left. And all he gets for it is nothing but shit from a jaded fanbase; any normal person would be burnt the fuck out after dealing with all of that for as long as he has. 

[Jango]

34 minutes ago, Tornado said:

When? 

 

I don't give a shit about Sega letting some anonymous iOS developer make a shitty gachapon or endless runner game that Sonic is in. Sega giving Dimps six months to reskin Sonic Rush with ugly attempts at remaking Sonic 2 tilesets is also irrelevant. I mean games that actually had development budgets and time put into them. There's only been one time when they've let such a game be developed in such a context, and:

Sonic Boom was SoA flexing on SoJ as part of the eternal struggle between the two divisions. That's the only 3D game in the series that Sega didn't make themselves, and we now know that SoJ was meddling with its development on a near constant basis even before the game was fully greenlit (as was SoA after the show was greenlit).

 

 

I'm saying "old guard Sega" as a measure for how much influence they have in the company, which at Sega has traditionally had to do with tenure and at some point in the past having done something important.

 

 

How convenient that the only thing Iizuka can apparently do to show that he cares is burn up his capital in order to step out of the way and let an outsider take control of the series.

 

 

Well... I can only see many "what if?" scenarios at best if I'm being honest. Like Wrath said before... we may never know the full stories behind the scenes, for good or for bad. 

As a final opinion tho'... while risky, it worked for SEGA letting another team making a new Sonic game with the supervision of only a few staffs from Japan... the second time at least XD I wouldn't be against letting another studio take a shot at Sonic again, and if it's Evening Star, even better. But that's just because I'm reaaaaally not looking forward to whatever ST is cooking, conservative as they are, I'm already expecting a short game with lots of automations, forced gimmicks, bad writing...

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

Back on topic.... And with no news as of yet (although we know we're going to get something soon). Let me first say that, although the series has not had a great run for the 3D games recently and there are lots of reasons to be pessimistic, I am optimistic at the moment that the next title will be a success. With the recent success of the Sonic movie, I think it is perhaps more important than ever for SEGA to not release a dud here. And I'm positive that they know that. There is going to be a larger exposure to this next title than usual. All the little kids that saw that Sonic movie and want in this franchise for the first time and going to be begging for this game for Christmas to a larger degree than before. In general, Sonic is more present in the public consciousness than he has been in a long time. 

 

In my first post I listed the 3 things I thnk are most likely to happen. I haven't changed my mind about that since then but I have thought about what id prefer most. 

I still would want an entirely new game as my first choice. But if forced between an adventure remake and a boost sequel, I think that would depend on the choice of design approach: if the Adventure remake is a near 1:1 of the original game with update graphics... I'd rather have a boost game. I don't want to play the same exact game again, not to mention the original had so many issues its really not worth revisiting in that form. So in other words, I don't think SA1 (or 2) would see a lot of success in the same vein as the Crash remakes, where the game is just given a face-lift but not much else. Give me a proper gameplay follow up to Gens over that. 

... However if the Adventure remake sees the gameplay thoroughly retooled and some careful thought about to handle the alternative gameplay modes, with some more investment and expansion into the hubworlds to create a more open world feel? Give me that, for sure. I've never been huge on the Chao garden although I've raised a few. Can take or leave those. 

 

[Drisaac]

5 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

There is going to be a larger exposure to this next title than usual. All the little kids that saw that Sonic movie and want in this franchise for the first time and going to be begging for this game for Christmas to a larger degree than before. In general

However, this can also be considered a bad thing.

Little kids wanting the new sonic game no matter what can be a good thing if the game is actually good, which would help sonic to appear in a better light, however if the game is bad the problem will be that the game will sell anyway, giving SEGA the idea that we fans are willing to eat whatever they shit out, and as you can guess, no, we don't.

 

[Jango]

4 hours ago, Drisaac said:

However, this can also be considered a bad thing.

Little kids wanting the new sonic game no matter what can be a good thing if the game is actually good, which would help sonic to appear in a better light, however if the game is bad the problem will be that the game will sell anyway, giving SEGA the idea that we fans are willing to eat whatever they shit out, and as you can guess, no, we don't.

 

That very much happened to Sonic Forces IIRC. 

SEGA is a weird company, honestly. It seems like they have a knack for quickly ruining Sonic's momentum (no pun intended). Whatever the franchise starts to see a light, they release something that kills the hype either a little or a bunch. The movie indeed got a lot of hype. 

[Drisaac]

8 hours ago, Jango said:

SEGA is a weird company, honestly. It seems like they have a knack for quickly ruining Sonic's momentum (no pun intended). Whatever the franchise starts to see a light, they release something that kills the hype either a little or a bunch. The movie indeed got a lot of hype. 

If the pattern remains, then this means that the 30th anniversary is going to kill the hype ? Well, it's not like anyone expects the next game to be good anyway.

[Red Hot Jack]

It will kill the hype if it's a bad game, but with the movie being so good and successful, it's very likely the game won't live up to the expectations set by the film.

Anyway, Iizuka was nowhere near Forces besides being a supervisor (as usual), he was working on Mania, later working on Team Sonic Racing, that's all I care, Forces sucked hard and Mania and TSR, with all their flaws, they were great products, just TSR was left to die because they didn't believe in it enough.

I also think Forces being a conflict of interests between Japan and SoA means A LOT, I don't think Iizuka is a saint either, or Aaron or the higher ups in the US, basically, from the vibe I'm getting:

SoA: cares about Sonic's brand image, unified, the staples (Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Classic Sonic, simple tone, jokes and fun, Zavok, Wisps, Death Egg Robot, Egg Dragoon, villain Shadow, dork Modern Sonic, token girl Amy, sidekick Tails, dumb rival Knuckles, now the Chao and Big too),

SoJ: wants more of a story, complexity, anime stuff, would like more new things, catering to the Adventure fans (?), anti-hero Shadow, and serious Sonic, the Avatar, edgy characters like Infinite.

The boost... they kept it because they had no time to create a new formula, they weren't interested in it anymore, resulting in shitty stages and basic boring gameplay.

What am I expecting now? The... Adventure 1 remake, mostly because they will want to cash in on everybody producing remakes, yeah, SA being 20+ years old and aged adds credibility to this, and though they aren't teasing it, they are teasing the return of Chao Garden.

I still do not want a 1:1 thing, make new additions, remove a some things, add variations of the original game and extras.

[Volcan Pacaya]

15 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

I still do not want a 1:1 thing, make new additions, remove a some things, add variations of the original game and extras.

And give it a ten month deadline after promising Sonic Team a year and a half.

[Drisaac]

I honestly don't know what sonic team wants to accomplish and how they want to.

After the discovery that Sonic Forces wasn't made by a "B-team" but rather by what remains of sonic team as a whole my hopes for the next title have been brought to the ground...well technically they were already there, but still.

Iizuka seems to be the last man standing of the old guard who still genuinely cares about Sonic, but he alone is not enough.

He's just a man, and he cannot save an entire franchise on his own, he would need talented people willing to work together to accomplish a common goal, which is something sonic team is currently lacking.

not only that, but because of the COVID-19 counter measures ALL developing teams have been asked to work from home, and this is where the next problem lies:

If sonic team was not able to make a proper game when working together, what makes you think that they can do any better when they are not even working in the same office ?

 

Between working separately, Sonic Team being now a dead wasteland full of inexperienced people and their incapability of finding a formula that works and with the ever decreasing budget given from SEGA the next game being a disaster is a self fulfilling prophecy that is just waiting to be happen.

 

At least i wish they could stop pretending that Sonic is this big and great franchise like their social media pages wants us to believe.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

2 hours ago, Drisaac said:

At least i wish they could stop pretending that Sonic is this big and great franchise like their social media pages wants us to believe.

Contrary to what seems to be a popular sentiment, I don't at all think Sonic Team is stupid. I think Sonic IS a big series, it still easily has global recognition, it just needs the high quality, awesome games to back it up. And to get awesome games they need 3 things:

1) budget

2) creative energy - a mix of old and new blood, for fresh ideas but technical competency and a consistent direction 

3) time - refusal to push out titles that aren't ready, especially the big ones. 

 

Regardless of what style of game they make, the post Naka Sonic Team (or what used to be ST) has shown many times they are capable of putting out good games. Even in a revolving door state. If they get the 3 things above, more than likely new Sonic games will be fun to play and of good quality. 

[Kuzu]

Above anything else listed there, you need talented people. Talented people who know what they're doing and can get the game out in a reasonable time while acquiescing to Sega's demands.

[Dr. Detective]

With Sonic Team being a thing that I'm not even sure properly exists anymore and Iizuka being at the mercy of whatever random decision SEGA wants to make regarding the direction of the series, I do find it easy to overlook all of the good things that have managed to slip through the cracks over the years. 

A lot of really good stuff has happened. Opportunities that I didn't think would be possible before have made themselves possible today. The existence of Mania, despite it being focused on the branch of Sonic that I've little interest in, still astounds and fascinates me as someone who likes the idea of new blood getting a crack at this series. The sliver of hope for the 3D games remains open at the moment because of that.

The continued existence of the Sonic comics even after the nonsense that happened with Archie and how even MORE promoted and pushed they've become, to the point of getting official merch and coming out in Japan has brightened up my day many a month for quite a while now.

I love how totally into the art of animation they've become today. Not just with the Sonic Boom cartoon (the only mildly successful thing to come about from SEGA's latest disastrous push to flush money down the toilet) but especially with those cartoons they have on their Youtube channel. Engagement and love for the series is pushed to the edge with those and it's always worked because Tyson Hesse and the team he works with also have genuine love and care for the franchise. Talk of another Sonic cartoon over the horizon can only ever make me more excited with all this out there.

Then there's the Sonic movie, which against all odds, pulled off a goddamn miracle. The backlash leading up to it did a lot for making me realize how many people out in the mainstream were still aware of Sonic's name and then to see the design change and the reaction afterward pushed me into the fold of something I had never really seen done in FILM before. 

I still get a kick out of Team Sonic Racing despite how little it had to offer in terms of content. Even then, the delightfully weird trailer with the shopping carts and Iizuka standing at the checkout is the kind of charming that my heart would need to be literal dust in order for me to not enjoy.

I do want to believe that things are getting better but we're trapped in this weird rut where things are probably the most uncertain they've ever been in a long time. SEGA has done very weird and monumental money and time wasting  things over time like the situation with the Saturn, the 32X, Sonic 06, the ENTIRE Sonic Boom empire that came in like a wrecking ball and crashed and burned about a year or so later... you know. I don't feel safe and secure in the knowledge that they might not be able to do it again. 

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if all the money that Sonic Boom stuff lost them is the reason why Forces and TSR were kept so low budget but I can't make assumptions like that. SEGA's got bank and a lot of good franchises under their belt, namely the monster that is the Yakuza series, but it feels like when it comes to Sonic specifically... they still don't quite know what to do.

Hearing all this talk about how Iizuka's in a thankless,stressful position is quite the bummer. The man says some really strange things sometimes but I've never questioned the fact that he's probably the person over there who cares the most about this series. That man is largely responsible for getting me into the series through Adventure 2: Battle and the work he did to near death pushing out Sonic Heroes, which almost defined my gaming childhood. I even read an interview long ago about how excited he was to bring Team Chaotix back. The Chaotix are here because of that man.

If he's actually the last bastion we have to cling to then there's only so long that's going to last. If all the positive stuff that has happened is largely a result of his influence, then when the time comes for him to retire or leave, things may just get worse. 

I don't wanna look the series over and think that rather than getting better, it's just one dropped member away from being the worst it'll probably ever be. I need them to put something out that'll convince me that they've got a solid hook for a comfortable future ahead. Whatever this next title is will probably be the deciding factor for whether or not I believe there's truly hope for a consistency in good tidings to come or if it's going to just be this weird game of hot potato in terms of what's good and what isn't forever and ever.

I'm really tired of a new good Sonic game coming out and hearing the words "Sonic is back" and "Sonic is good again". That's not something you should have say every time a good Sonic game comes out. I'm ready for Good Sonic to be the norm now. 

[Kuzu]

At this point, the only thing you thing you can do is just wait and see; everyone is pretty on edge right now  given the lack of...anything lately. The most recent things to come out were the movie, which thankfully was very successful, and Team Sonic Racing, which while good, didn't really leave much of a lasting impact due to being one month off from Crash Team Racing.

The last mainline game was aggressively mediocre and satisfied none of the people it was trying to appeal to, and the success of Mania just kind of agitated fans of the 3D games even further. Honestly, I'd say the only ones who are really satisfied with the series as it is now are the classic fans given they got Mania, which is all but a love letter to everything from that sect from the series.

Which leaves the 3D fans probably more agitated and annoyed than they have ever been given how underwhelming Forces was by comparison, since it just vindicates the popular opinion that 3D Sonic is inferior to 2D Sonic. It's gotten so bad that 3D fans are kind of turning on each other about it and it's very ugly to see. 

 

So even if a Mania sequel was announced, only the classic fans would be happy about it while 3D fans are gonna twiddling their thumbs until another game is announced. 

[Drisaac]

8 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

With Sonic Team being a thing that I'm not even sure properly exists anymore and Iizuka being at the mercy of whatever random decision SEGA wants to make regarding the direction of the series, I do find it easy to overlook all of the good things that have managed to slip through the cracks over the years. 

A lot of really good stuff has happened. Opportunities that I didn't think would be possible before have made themselves possible today. The existence of Mania, despite it being focused on the branch of Sonic that I've little interest in, still astounds and fascinates me as someone who likes the idea of new blood getting a crack at this series. The sliver of hope for the 3D games remains open at the moment because of that.

The continued existence of the Sonic comics even after the nonsense that happened with Archie and how even MORE promoted and pushed they've become, to the point of getting official merch and coming out in Japan has brightened up my day many a month for quite a while now.

I love how totally into the art of animation they've become today. Not just with the Sonic Boom cartoon (the only mildly successful thing to come about from SEGA's latest disastrous push to flush money down the toilet) but especially with those cartoons they have on their Youtube channel. Engagement and love for the series is pushed to the edge with those and it's always worked because Tyson Hesse and the team he works with also have genuine love and care for the franchise. Talk of another Sonic cartoon over the horizon can only ever make me more excited with all this out there.

Then there's the Sonic movie, which against all odds, pulled off a goddamn miracle. The backlash leading up to it did a lot for making me realize how many people out in the mainstream were still aware of Sonic's name and then to see the design change and the reaction afterward pushed me into the fold of something I had never really seen done in FILM before. 

I still get a kick out of Team Sonic Racing despite how little it had to offer in terms of content. Even then, the delightfully weird trailer with the shopping carts and Iizuka standing at the checkout is the kind of charming that my heart would need to be literal dust in order for me to not enjoy.

I do want to believe that things are getting better but we're trapped in this weird rut where things are probably the most uncertain they've ever been in a long time. SEGA has done very weird and monumental money and time wasting  things over time like the situation with the Saturn, the 32X, Sonic 06, the ENTIRE Sonic Boom empire that came in like a wrecking ball and crashed and burned about a year or so later... you know. I don't feel safe and secure in the knowledge that they might not be able to do it again. 

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if all the money that Sonic Boom stuff lost them is the reason why Forces and TSR were kept so low budget but I can't make assumptions like that. SEGA's got bank and a lot of good franchises under their belt, namely the monster that is the Yakuza series, but it feels like when it comes to Sonic specifically... they still don't quite know what to do.

Hearing all this talk about how Iizuka's in a thankless,stressful position is quite the bummer. The man says some really strange things sometimes but I've never questioned the fact that he's probably the person over there who cares the most about this series. That man is largely responsible for getting me into the series through Adventure 2: Battle and the work he did to near death pushing out Sonic Heroes, which almost defined my gaming childhood. I even read an interview long ago about how excited he was to bring Team Chaotix back. The Chaotix are here because of that man.

If he's actually the last bastion we have to cling to then there's only so long that's going to last. If all the positive stuff that has happened is largely a result of his influence, then when the time comes for him to retire or leave, things may just get worse. 

I don't wanna look the series over and think that rather than getting better, it's just one dropped member away from being the worst it'll probably ever be. I need them to put something out that'll convince me that they've got a solid hook for a comfortable future ahead. Whatever this next title is will probably be the deciding factor for whether or not I believe there's truly hope for a consistency in good tidings to come or if it's going to just be this weird game of hot potato in terms of what's good and what isn't forever and ever.

I'm really tired of a new good Sonic game coming out and hearing the words "Sonic is back" and "Sonic is good again". That's not something you should have say every time a good Sonic game comes out. I'm ready for Good Sonic to be the norm now. 

I appreciate your efforts in trying to find a light in a seemingly desperate situation but i don't think you are winning any points for sonic.

the fact that LITERALLY EVERYTHING, comics, movie, animations and what not is better than the main attraction of this franchise, the games, should not be seen as good thing but rather as a way to highlight the fact that something very wrong it's inside this franchise.

[Red Hot Jack]

9 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

With Sonic Team being a thing that I'm not even sure properly exists anymore and Iizuka being at the mercy of whatever random decision SEGA wants to make regarding the direction of the series, I do find it easy to overlook all of the good things that have managed to slip through the cracks over the years. 

A lot of really good stuff has happened. Opportunities that I didn't think would be possible before have made themselves possible today. The existence of Mania, despite it being focused on the branch of Sonic that I've little interest in, still astounds and fascinates me as someone who likes the idea of new blood getting a crack at this series. The sliver of hope for the 3D games remains open at the moment because of that.

The continued existence of the Sonic comics even after the nonsense that happened with Archie and how even MORE promoted and pushed they've become, to the point of getting official merch and coming out in Japan has brightened up my day many a month for quite a while now.

I love how totally into the art of animation they've become today. Not just with the Sonic Boom cartoon (the only mildly successful thing to come about from SEGA's latest disastrous push to flush money down the toilet) but especially with those cartoons they have on their Youtube channel. Engagement and love for the series is pushed to the edge with those and it's always worked because Tyson Hesse and the team he works with also have genuine love and care for the franchise. Talk of another Sonic cartoon over the horizon can only ever make me more excited with all this out there.

Then there's the Sonic movie, which against all odds, pulled off a goddamn miracle. The backlash leading up to it did a lot for making me realize how many people out in the mainstream were still aware of Sonic's name and then to see the design change and the reaction afterward pushed me into the fold of something I had never really seen done in FILM before. 

I still get a kick out of Team Sonic Racing despite how little it had to offer in terms of content. Even then, the delightfully weird trailer with the shopping carts and Iizuka standing at the checkout is the kind of charming that my heart would need to be literal dust in order for me to not enjoy.

I do want to believe that things are getting better but we're trapped in this weird rut where things are probably the most uncertain they've ever been in a long time. SEGA has done very weird and monumental money and time wasting  things over time like the situation with the Saturn, the 32X, Sonic 06, the ENTIRE Sonic Boom empire that came in like a wrecking ball and crashed and burned about a year or so later... you know. I don't feel safe and secure in the knowledge that they might not be able to do it again. 

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if all the money that Sonic Boom stuff lost them is the reason why Forces and TSR were kept so low budget but I can't make assumptions like that. SEGA's got bank and a lot of good franchises under their belt, namely the monster that is the Yakuza series, but it feels like when it comes to Sonic specifically... they still don't quite know what to do.

Hearing all this talk about how Iizuka's in a thankless,stressful position is quite the bummer. The man says some really strange things sometimes but I've never questioned the fact that he's probably the person over there who cares the most about this series. That man is largely responsible for getting me into the series through Adventure 2: Battle and the work he did to near death pushing out Sonic Heroes, which almost defined my gaming childhood. I even read an interview long ago about how excited he was to bring Team Chaotix back. The Chaotix are here because of that man.

If he's actually the last bastion we have to cling to then there's only so long that's going to last. If all the positive stuff that has happened is largely a result of his influence, then when the time comes for him to retire or leave, things may just get worse. 

I don't wanna look the series over and think that rather than getting better, it's just one dropped member away from being the worst it'll probably ever be. I need them to put something out that'll convince me that they've got a solid hook for a comfortable future ahead. Whatever this next title is will probably be the deciding factor for whether or not I believe there's truly hope for a consistency in good tidings to come or if it's going to just be this weird game of hot potato in terms of what's good and what isn't forever and ever.

I'm really tired of a new good Sonic game coming out and hearing the words "Sonic is back" and "Sonic is good again". That's not something you should have say every time a good Sonic game comes out. I'm ready for Good Sonic to be the norm now. 

I love this and I completely agree.

17 minutes ago, Drisaac said:

I appreciate your efforts in trying to find a light in a seemingly desperate situation but i don't think you are winning any points for sonic.

the fact that LITERALLY EVERYTHING, comics, movie, animations and what not is better than the main attraction of this franchise, the games, should not be seen as good thing but rather as a way to highlight the fact that something very wrong it's inside this franchise.

"Desperate situation" is just a matter of perspective, I don't see it that way, Sonic is successful, makes money and gathers unexpected attention when he's at the top, with good material, Forces clearly wasn't, the last Mario & Sonic Olympic crossover was also forgettable, that's about... it?

I'm gonna list what actually flopped in sales and was bad critically:

Forces (acclaimed negatively by critics and fans, sold ??? but likely not much)

Olympics Tokyo 2020 on Switch (was not mentioned in any Sega Sammy reports because they wanted to ignore its lack of sales)

What is successful:

The IDW comics (according to IDW "every issue seems to sell better than the last" it's one of the top performers of the company and is gonna come to more territories)

Mania (acclaimed by fans and critics, sold well apparently, SEGA was satisfied with sales in reports, a return to form for the classic series, SEGA even did the unexpected by breaking their rule of abandoning games after launch and released a physical edition + DLC)

Team Sonic Racing (a well made game that got great reviews - some higher than CTR - , mostly an underdog, but according to charts it sold well at the beginning, it's still being remembered well, it's just low budget and SEGA didn't believe it so they dropped it after launch)

The shorts  (got millions and millions of views, acclaimed for humor, personality and animation style)

Movie (we all know how well it did, a real miracle, it won against the odds)

 

When you put it like that, minus a boring crossover no one cared about, it's really Forces that everyone keeps using as an excuse for "Sonic is failing" "Sonic is dead", It's the latest modern game, I know it's a big blow but, that's really all there is to it. I don't want it to be another 06 that keeps getting in as an excuse to talk shit about Sonic for another 10 years.  I'm sick of this.

SEGA surprise me and use the money made by the movie to give a larger budget for the next main title.

Also, hire more talented people. Sumo did a great job with the bit of money they were given on TSR, Whitehead and his team did an awesome job too with little budget as well. Iizuka worked on both, especially Mania, as supervisor.

I agree that it's really the SoA higher ups that make lame decisions, and older Sonic Team in Japan that lacked talent (and the misguided direction of those games too). With the restructuring and Sega of America now working on Sonic, who knows what will happen???

Also, they worked on Forces for 1 year, they spent 3 years on the visual engine for the new gen of consoles, they put so many ideas for fanservice in it that overblew the game, etc etc. We all know those things. Let's see what they can do now with more time, money and changes to the team.

[Drisaac]

1 hour ago, Jack at Home said:

Let's see what they can do now with more time, money and changes to the team.

Exactly, where are you gathering all this information ? Do they really have more time and money or you are just assuming that it's true ?

[Red Hot Jack]

6 minutes ago, Drisaac said:

Exactly, where are you gathering all this information ? Do they really have more time and money or you are just assuming that it's true ?

Time - they don't have to work on the engine this time

Team - SEGA did restructuring and now they are working in the US, rather than in Japan.

Money - I dunno, money made by Mania, TSR AND the movie perhaps.

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Drisaac said:

I appreciate your efforts in trying to find a light in a seemingly desperate situation but i don't think you are winning any points for sonic.

the fact that LITERALLY EVERYTHING, comics, movie, animations and what not is better than the main attraction of this franchise, the games, should not be seen as good thing but rather as a way to highlight the fact that something very wrong it's inside this franchise.

Sonic has expanded far beyond the games at this point; its a multimedia franchise, and some parts are gonna pull more venue than others. The games are just merely an advertisement at this point.

Pokemon is kind of in a similar state; obviously Sonic doesn't make anywhere near as much as Pokemon on a good day, but the Pokemom franchise gets more money from merchandise and the Anime than anything it makes from the games.

So the fact that other parts of the media are doing well for Sonic means the exact opposite of what you said; the franchise is in fact doing very well, and the movie is probably the most public recognition it has received in a long time. 

Obviously this doesn't mean much if you're someone primarily invested in the games, but it's important to know that Sonic is more than just the games nowadays.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Team Sonic Racing, which while good, didn't really leave much of a lasting impact due to being one month off from Crash Team Racing.

More like it didn't have lasting impact because it didn't keep things up with as much content.

[I-EM-EI]

Regarding Sonic Forces' sales, Sega said that the game, among others, "performed strongly", on one of their financial reports back in 2018 (compared to Sonic Lost World, which they described as a "disappointment" in 2014). And if I recall correctly, there was in interview in Famitsu last year where someone (I don't remember who) claimed both Forces and Mania reached one millon sales each. I personally believe that Forces turned out mediocre because Sonic Team spent most of their time developing the Hedgehog Engine 2 rather than the actual game.  

Team Sonic Racing was low budget, but Sumo Digital themselves warned players that there would be no DLC because they wanted people to experience the whole thing from the beginning.