Sonic 30th predictions

[Wraith]

The chao system is just one of a few systems that I think need to be in the game to encourage repeatability. It's not gonna mean a whole lot without a solid core gameplay loop running underneath it. 

[Wraith]

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I remember a big complaint about Generations was how short it was for the price that it came with, despite how good the game was. 

I'm not saying you're wrong because I do agree actually, but it is a thing to consider.

I'm not sure if Sonic is trying to compete in the AAA space anymore is the thing. A shorter game for 40 bucks seems to be the goal for the series, so might as well make it a good time instead of focusing on gimmicks like Forces still managed to do.
 

 

7 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

You're preaching to the choir. This is part of what has been stated over and over again. Yes it is an inherent problem with the sonic formula from a development perspective. The formula was created to be a mass market, AAA series and it did not adapt enough to do so after the Genesis era. In the Genesis Era, games like Sonic 2 were cutting edge but in the dawn of the 3D Era, the industry grew enormously and so did consumer expectations. So SEGA really only had two choices to make with Sonic: continue to make similar content at a discounted price for fans of that style (which nobody thought was the right thing to do) or try do mold the formula into something that could maintain AAA status. Sonic Team has obviously chosen the latter and I don't blame them, it's what Sonic was created for: to be the flagship of a brand with universal sales appeal. Sonic is still very capable of being a flagship character with very high popularity so the fact that they want to continue that goal is not unreasonable at all. But you have to stop trying to design 3D Sonic like 2D sonic. Instead do what Mario did: find the essence of the things people liked in 2D and create an entirely new gameplay context with it. Mario changed from being a linear A to B platformer, to an open world collectathon. Sonic is going to have to make a change of that magnitude, in some fashion, one way or another. Employ the classic physics and feel of the games but give Sonic something bigger to chew on. 

 

 

 

Nintendo took big time and budgetary investments to reinvent Mario, Zelda, and Metroid: 3 years each for Mario and Zelda and even longer for Metroid. All the while budgets were inflating and the time it was taking was considered ludicrous all over the industry, both internally at Nintendo and at other companies. The pay off was worth it, of course, but I don't see Sega ever taking that much time between releases to find their groove for the sake of a AAA production in a genre that no one is certain of the viability of. 

[Red Hot Jack]

4 hours ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

The solution to the length issue is the Chao system. Having these cute, addictive, endlessly experimental virtual pets is what kept everyone playing SA2 for so long. We need the Chao back, badly. 

I don't think that's a solution. Then it's just a short main game with an endless minigame attached. It's the same issue with alternate playstyles in general, slower games. So either you keep it all-Sonicy and fast, it will be short, or you add things that have little to do with Sonic to make it longer, aka filler. That's the big debate. 

The solution is: make solid and long main stages, fun to play, add missions, gimmick-y mini acts as optional (I personally don't mind them). Then you add collectables, red star rings and more, I liked the idea in Forces, after you collect all red rings, moons start to appear etc. only levels have to be big enough to have room for all these extras. That's how you do replayability imo.

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Wrapped in Black said:

I'm not sure if Sonic is trying to compete in the AAA space anymore is the thing. A shorter game for 40 bucks seems to be the goal for the series, so might as well make it a good time instead of focusing on gimmicks like Forces still managed to do.

Nintendo took big time and budgetary investments to reinvent Mario, Zelda, and Metroid: 3 years each for Mario and Zelda and even longer for Metroid. All the while budgets were inflating and the time it was taking was considered ludicrous all over the industry, both internally at Nintendo and at other companies. The pay off was worth it, of course, but I don't see Sega ever taking that much time between releases to find their groove for the sake of a AAA production in a genre that no one is certain of the viability of. 

Given that Sonic is their flagship franchise, it's honestly hard to say; but I can't say for sure that going for budgeted titles is the way to go but it's rather clear that throwing gimmicks in the game just has not worked. It's honestly hard to say what the right direction is, but they really haven't sat down and truly thought out the best direction for the franchise without either cutting the budget in half or just padding the length of the game out.

In other words, they have yet to truly modernize this series in a way that moves forward; the biggest mark I've seen against Mania, as great of a title it is, is how it doesn't really push the series in any new direction and just retread of what came out in 1994. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

2 hours ago, Wrapped in Black said:

I'm not sure if Sonic is trying to compete in the AAA space anymore is the thing. A shorter game for 40 bucks seems to be the goal for the series, so might as well make it a good time instead of focusing on gimmicks like Forces still managed to do.
 

 

Nintendo took big time and budgetary investments to reinvent Mario, Zelda, and Metroid: 3 years each for Mario and Zelda and even longer for Metroid. All the while budgets were inflating and the time it was taking was considered ludicrous all over the industry, both internally at Nintendo and at other companies. The pay off was worth it, of course, but I don't see Sega ever taking that much time between releases to find their groove for the sake of a AAA production in a genre that no one is certain of the viability of. 

And this is why they've had consistent problems for the last 20 years. Sonic is a series that by all rights should have the same level of care as Zelda, pokemon, Mario, etc. But it instead has been recklessly milked for every cent it can be without care for the brand. It's terrible honestly, but its also why we've seen so many statements from SEGA PR people like Ivo Gersovich about mismanaging the brand, they know they screwed up and that Sonic's global popularity is being squandered. So NOW they will take their time with games but do they realize what to do with that lengthier timeframe? Do they understand that attempting the exact same thing will not give them success? 

 

If SEGA (not Sonic Team, who actually do care) cared this much a long time ago, Sonic would not have been putting out yearly releases in the mid 2000s when their reputation was being destroyed in the media. The time to slow down and nail the formula was a very long time ago. But it's not too late, the series has the exact same problem now that it did in 1998 and we won't see Sonic succeed in a big way again until they figure it out, or decide to change their goals with Sonic (which maybe they have done.... Shortsighted IMO but possible) 

 

Also for whoever mentioned it, yes the Chao is a great idea and helps boost replayabilty. But it is not an answer to thr core gameplay experience. Sonic should be able to carry a full game with his gameplay alone. Even if the game isn't particularly long, it needs to feel like something worth paying 60 bucks. I think Sonic games should be 8-10 hours to 100% the normal features, with stuff like Chao and emblems for bonuses and replay value. This is only possible if you design 3D Sonic to be more than a point A to B game. And it is definitely doable, there have been many good ideas on this subject and personally it's why I think 3D Sonic is destined to try an open world format with lots of stuff packed into the world. 

[Kuzu]

15 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

And this is why they've had consistent problems for the last 20 years. Sonic is a series that by all rights should have the same level of care as Zelda, pokemon, Mario, etc. But it instead has been recklessly milked for every cent it can be without care for the brand. It's terrible honestly, but its also why we've seen so many statements from SEGA PR people like Ivo Gersovich about mismanaging the brand, they know they screwed up and that Sonic's global popularity is being squandered. So NOW they will take their time with games but do they realize what to do with that lengthier timeframe? Do they understand that attempting the exact same thing will not give them success? 

 

If SEGA (not Sonic Team, who actually do care) cared this much a long time ago, Sonic would not have been putting out yearly releases in the mid 2000s when their reputation was being destroyed in the media. The time to slow down and nail the formula was a very long time ago. But it's not too late, the series has the exact same problem now that it did in 1998 and we won't see Sonic succeed in a big way again until they figure it out, or decide to change their goals with Sonic (which maybe they have done.... Shortsighted IMO but possible) 

 

Also for whoever mentioned it, yes the Chao is a great idea and helps boost replayabilty. But it is not an answer to thr core gameplay experience. Sonic should be able to carry a full game with his gameplay alone. Even if the game isn't particularly long, it needs to feel like something worth paying 60 bucks. I think Sonic games should be 8-10 hours to 100% the normal features, with stuff like Chao and emblems for bonuses and replay value. This is only possible if you design 3D Sonic to be more than a point A to B game. And it is definitely doable, there have been many good ideas on this subject and personally it's why I think 3D Sonic is destined to try an open world format with lots of stuff packed into the world. 

I think after 20 years of dropping the ball, fans are just tired and exhausted at this point; you can only fail but so many times before people just lose all faith in you. Even if the next game does have a higher budget, there's no reason to assume that they aren't going to throw in some gimmick out of a misguided attempt at padding out game time. Alternatively, if there is no budget, we just get a game that isn't much better than Forces. 

There's really no reason to assume that they have learned any real lessons from this and we won't know until we see the next game and play it. 

[Styx_Linoone]

9 hours ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

The solution to the length issue is the Chao system. Having these cute, addictive, endlessly experimental virtual pets is what kept everyone playing SA2 for so long. We need the Chao back, badly. 

There's a disturbing lack of chao gameplay in the later entries and that's a part of makes it unrecognizable to an extent. The only reason there's even replayability in SA1 and SA2 is because of the Chao Gardens.

[Drisaac]

17 hours ago, Kuzu said:

There's really no reason to assume that they have learned any real lessons from this and we won't know until we see the next game and play it. 

Exactly.

People need to STOP giving SEGA and/or Sonic Team the benefit of the doubt, they have proven multiples times that they clearly don't deserve said benefit.

However there's a good thing that i have seen happening recently, the fact that SEGA cried over the wolf yet again about how they will take their time for more quality games but no one is buying into it is a good sign, because it shows that people are no longer buying into SEGA's shit and are tired of false promises, the distrust towards SEGA is totally earned and they deserve every inch of it, so I'm glad to see that people have finally started to wake up and are no longer getting tricked by SEGA yet again.

[Red Hot Jack]

47 minutes ago, Drisaac said:

Exactly.

People need to STOP giving SEGA and/or Sonic Team the benefit of the doubt, they have proven multiples times that they clearly don't deserve said benefit.

However there's a good thing that i have seen happening recently, the fact that SEGA cried over the wolf yet again about how they will take their time for more quality games but no one is buying into it is a good sign, because it shows that people are no longer buying into SEGA's shit and are tired of false promises, the distrust towards SEGA is totally earned and they deserve every inch of it, so I'm glad to see that people have finally started to wake up and are no longer getting tricked by SEGA yet again.

It's not deserved towards SEGA, they want to make good decisions. They want to take their time for quality products.

This is more about the team of devs who work on the games, we keep stating that, the director and designer Kishimoto, who is responsible for most bad decisions in my opinion. The devs lack talent, but still, devs on Sonic games change all the time, there is no telling what will happen with the next game.

So I just really think saying "There is no hope, Sonic games will suck forever, you can't hope they will be good" is bullshit. That's what cynism is.  They constantly change their team. Every game is a different case.

Forces sucked because of some bad decisions, but mostly because we think they have worked on the actual game for only 1 year. SEGA say they want this to change. I'm not saying "SEGA listened to us! The game will be amazing!" I'm saying "Wait for it".

I want to share this video which agrees with my opinion:

I'm aware of Sonictubers and their reputation, still I don't mind this video, it's for speculation, I enjoy that.

Anyway, "Sonic Adventure Mania-esque" is what I've been saying for some time.

"Everyone is doing remakes! SEGA will follow the trend!"

Not necessarily, while it's possible, SEGA never did remakes with Sonic, they'd rather make new games with nostalgia factor (Generations, Mania, even Sonic 4), they want to do both, have new experiences to sell, and nostalgia, to sell as well.

A Sonic Adventure remake is not only very huge to make, but as you see, if they wanted to follow the trend, they would have to remake SA1 + SA2 + extra features, it's literally impossible, it's too much in one release.

I think it's more reasonable to expect reimagined old zones in a brand new game, with some returning elements. The Chao Garden no doubt, it's what they are teasing heavily. So I expect that. Because it's what they have done in the past.

[Blue Blood]

1 hour ago, Drisaac said:

Exactly.

People need to STOP giving SEGA and/or Sonic Team the benefit of the doubt, they have proven multiples times that they clearly don't deserve said benefit.

However there's a good thing that i have seen happening recently, the fact that SEGA cried over the wolf yet again about how they will take their time for more quality games but no one is buying into it is a good sign, because it shows that people are no longer buying into SEGA's shit and are tired of false promises, the distrust towards SEGA is totally earned and they deserve every inch of it, so I'm glad to see that people have finally started to wake up and are no longer getting tricked by SEGA yet again.

I wish this was true. A lot of fans and channels have expressed this opinion, but by and large the media still seem to be reporting on with without such commentary. And some fans are accepting it without question too. I just ran a Google search for "sega to take time with Sonic" and the first results to come up were from 2009, both gaming sites and general pop culture portals. I know we're all used to this song and dance with middling results, but it's still quite sobering to see just how far back it goes.

For a lot of people outside communities like this one, the recent comments from SEGA about "focusing on quality" will be the first they've heard of it. This could be because they're less familiar with the series and have only been playing the games for the past ten years or so. If we go back to 2010, the Sonic timeline is as follows:

• Mainline games from SEGA: Colours > Generations > Lost World > Forces. Two games generally regarded as really good, a dropped ball with Lost World and an average return to form with Forces.
• Racing games from Sumo: All Stars Racing > All Stars Racing Transformed > Team Sonic Racing. A decent Mario Kart clone in the form of a SEGA crossover followed by a truly unique racing game that was critically lauded and still a SEGA crossover and then a dissapointing Sonic-only Mario Kart clone with a gimmick.
• Boom games and the TV series: Rise of Lyric & Shattered Crystal > Fire and Ice. The franchise was presumed dead quite a while ago and was more recently confirmed as such. It got off to a bad start with the character redesigns, got absolutely torn apart with some of the worst recieved games of all time and then... just fizzled out with a sad little whimper.
• Other games: S4E1/E2 >Free Riders > M&S Olympics series> mobile games. Free Riders was a bomb that was swiftly forgotten about. The M&S series and mobile games are both just sort of there, upsetting nobody but just plodding along in the background to please kids and casual fans. The Sonic 4 series was met with initially positive reception from critics, but fans weren't so hot on it. By the time E2 rolled around, it was widely regarded as "too little too late" and SEGA sent it off to live on a beautiful farm somewhere with the Storybook series and Jet Set Radio Future. 
• Mania and the movie: Well-recognised as an effort from fans and not from SEGA directly, Mania is the highlight of the past decade as far as the games go. And the movie was a smash-hit... also not from SEGA. Generations got great reception, but it's Mania and the movie that really set the world alight. 

Although I've never been more dissatisfied with the series than I am now, it's pretty much objectively true that the series isn't suffering quite as badly from terrible games as it was in the 2000s. That's the time when SEGA gave us ShTH in 2005, '06 just a year later, the Werehog and Black Knight. The announcement of Boom and subsequent release of RoL in 2014 is the only time that the series has dipped low as it did back then. The bigger problem is the series revelling in mediocrity now. There are no dumpster fires for people to gather around. Nobody cares when the series is this boring, and it's losing relevance. 

Maybe the fact that the series is suffering from its current straights will kick SEGA into action properly? Especially after an indie-developed retro-inspired game outdid anything they're put out in the past 20 years in terms of reception, and the movie has reignited general interest? It's all possible, but I'll believe it only when I see it. 

42 minutes ago, Jack at Home said:

It's not deserved towards SEGA, they want to make good decisions. They want to take their time for quality products.

This is more about the team of devs who work on the games, we keep stating that, the director and designer Kishimoto, who is responsible for most bad decisions in my opinion. The devs lack talent, but still, devs on Sonic games change all the time, there is no telling what will happen with the next game.

SEGA deserve a fuck ton of blame. If the developers of Sonic games are putting out bad games, then it's within SEGA's power to seek out new talent or outsource the games. Just because someone like Morio Kishimoto keeps getting put in charge doesn't mean he has to be in charge. They're also the ones to blame for interfering with the development of Sonic Synergy/Rise of Lyric, shifting development to the Wii U with an unsupported engine midway through development and forcing the game out for a holiday release. They're the ones giving Sonic games such a shoestring budget. They're the ones who have total control over the Sonic IP.

42 minutes ago, Jack at Home said:

So I just really think saying "There is no hope, Sonic games will suck forever, you can't hope they will be good" is bullshit. That's what cynism is.  They constantly change their team. Every game is a different case.

Wrong. Try again.

What's wrong with a bit of cynicism and pessimism? Both are pretty well-founded; SEGA have made these promises before, and they've very little to show for it. Nobody is saying "there is no hope, Sonic games will suck forever, you can't hope they will be good". If the teams are constantly changing and the games are still pretty poor... maybe the problem actually extends beyond the team? There's cautious optimism and hope, which is what I think most people are exercising. They come with expectations and past experience however.

42 minutes ago, Jack at Home said:

Forces sucked because of some bad decisions, but mostly because we think they have worked on the actual game for only 1 year. SEGA say they want this to change. I'm not saying "SEGA listened to us! The game will be amazing!" I'm saying "Wait for it".

Everyone else is saying something more along the lines of "once bitten, twice shy", or "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". Could they stick to what the say? It's a possibility. I'd love nothing more than fro Sonic games to be good again. But have I got much faith in SEGA to deliver? Look at the facts: they've spent at least the last 11 years saying that they'll do better, and longer still dishing out sub-par games. A few decent entries have been sprinkled out here and there, but the showing has been largely embarrassing. I've got absolutely no reason to take them at their work until they show us otherwise. And past experience tells me to expect the worst. Everyone is waiting to see what happens, and many have learned not to hold their breath.

[Red Hot Jack]

Okay, fans can do whatever they want with their hopes, dreams, or lack of them.

We really need to be less self-entitled and let the others keep their opinion. lol, that's where I'm wrong, personally.

But still, I don't have to agree with them, I'm convinced "cynisim and pessimism" are bullshit, in life, period. They are just pointless, they are destructive, they don't take people anywhere. I know we are talking about a blue hedgehog, but still, I don't have to accept that attitude. It's just inner bitter and anger talking IMO.

[Tracker_TD]

It's worth noting that SEGA's first statement on focusing on quality wasn't specifically regarding Sonic; and I'd genuinely be hard pressed to say they haven't delivered on that front, ironically outside of their mascot. 

Sakura Wars got a great revival (with several Sonic alumni on board, no less), Yakuza's gone from strength to strength (apparently even Yakuza 7's gone down pretty well in the end), SEGA AGES is essentially the gold standard for ports of retro content, they've been licensing out their IP so we can get great new titles in series such as Streets of Rage and (after some teething problems) Panzer Dragoon. Puyo Puyo's come back to the West at last, PSO2 got itself a Western release, Valkyria got itself another mainline entry after the odd misstep with that Revolution thing; you get the gist.  

So to be honest, I don't despise SEGA, because I'm aware there's a lot more to SEGA and their promises than just the Blue Hedgehog. I think the Japanese team led by Kishimoto - the one that they keep handing 3D Sonic to, whether they're formally "Sonic Team" now or not - are more specifically to blame. 

[Drisaac]

The real problem that I'm noticing right now is that no one knows for sure who is to blame for Sonic's shortcomings in recent years.

Who is at fault ? Is it SEGA ? Is it Sonic Team ? Or maybe both of them deserve the blame, for different reasons ?

we are divided on this point too, which I'm not surprised since it's the sonic fandom we are talking about.

[Blue Blood]

4 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

Okay, fans can do whatever they want with their hopes, dreams, or lack of them.

We really need to be less self-entitled and let the others keep their opinion. lol, that's where I'm wrong, personally.

But still, I don't have to agree with them, I'm convinced "cynisim and pessimism" are bullshit, in life, period. They are just pointless, they are destructive, they don't take people anywhere. I know we are talking about a blue hedgehog, but still, I don't have to accept that attitude.

That got real deep, real fast...

It's neither destructive nor pointless to look rationally at the information that's available and draw some realistic conclusions/expectations from that. Have SEGA talked about improving Sonic multiple times in the past? Yes. Have SEGA delivered on that? That's subjective, although it would appear that they think they have work to do. Have they made a similar promise again? Yes. What will the outcome be? We've all got to wait and see to be sure, but we can make some predictions.

Broken promises breed distrust, and bad experiences breed pessimism. If the sky is cloudy, but the weatherman says it's going to be sunny day even though it's rained for the past three days and you know he's been wrong before... you'll probably choose to take an umbrella with you when you go out. Is that pessimism or realism? Is it both? And maybe you'll choose to go out in shorts and a T-shirt anyway, but you'll take a change of clothes just in case you get caught in some rain. Do you call that cautious optimism?

There's no self-entitlement or denying others their opinion here. SEGA have said something, and basically they're being told "pics or it didn't happen".   

3 hours ago, Drisaac said:

The real problem that I'm noticing right now is that no one knows for sure who is to blame for Sonic's shortcomings in recent years.

Who is at fault ? Is it SEGA ? Is it Sonic Team ? Or maybe both of them deserve the blame, for different reasons ?

we are divided on this point too, which I'm not surprised since it's the sonic fandom we are talking about.

It's most definitely both. Sonic Team make bad decisions and make bad games, and SEGA keep encouraging them to do so. 

[Red Hot Jack]

Of course they need to show us what they actually learnt, other than lessons, they need to translate them to actual quality and effort. We'll see... I'm not convinced, I'm not giving up yet either. There are too many variables, I can't judge them just because they've let us down in the past.

As usual, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I do that all the time, sometimes it's rewarding like in the case of the movie, now this is a different thing altogether.

They will show us what they have been working on, when they are ready. This is the usual debate we've had in the past, I know it, we give opinions before seeing anything, it's gonna suck/be awesome, based on what? Past games alone? Nah, I'm personally waiting.

[Wraith]

On 5/31/2020 at 6:15 AM, Tracker_TD said:

It's worth noting that SEGA's first statement on focusing on quality wasn't specifically regarding Sonic; and I'd genuinely be hard pressed to say they haven't delivered on that front, ironically outside of their mascot. 

Sakura Wars got a great revival (with several Sonic alumni on board, no less), Yakuza's gone from strength to strength (apparently even Yakuza 7's gone down pretty well in the end), SEGA AGES is essentially the gold standard for ports of retro content, they've been licensing out their IP so we can get great new titles in series such as Streets of Rage and (after some teething problems) Panzer Dragoon. Puyo Puyo's come back to the West at last, PSO2 got itself a Western release, Valkyria got itself another mainline entry after the odd misstep with that Revolution thing; you get the gist.  

So to be honest, I don't despise SEGA, because I'm aware there's a lot more to SEGA and their promises than just the Blue Hedgehog. I think the Japanese team led by Kishimoto - the one that they keep handing 3D Sonic to, whether they're formally "Sonic Team" now or not - are more specifically to blame. 

As long as they're still sticking to lower budget titles, remasters and ports they'll always be selling their potential short if you ask me. 

[Tracker_TD]

1 hour ago, Wrapped in Black said:

As long as they're still sticking to lower budget titles, remasters and ports they'll always be selling their potential short if you ask me. 

But that only really goes for SEGA AGES and the Panzer remakes (not to mention PD is getting a new title anyway, though a VR one).

I'm not really arsed about how much money goes into a game as long as it's good; Sonic Mania was probably made on a shoestring budget compared to most Sonic titles, but that stop it embarrassing most of SEGA's own Sonic output. Likewise, Streets of Rage 4 probably didn't have a huge budget, but I play SoR4 and wonder; did it really need more money pumping into it? It's a satisfying beat-em-up and perhaps more money might've got us another character or something, but I don't think it'd make a huge difference when they already worked wonders with what they had. Likewise, Yakuza, Valkyria Chronicles and Sakura Wars don't strike me as budget titles.

SEGA's output isn't flawless, but my issues with games like Sakura Wars usually fall down to stuff like narrative problems or gameplay mechanics, not that they feel underfunded. You can only pump so much money into something before it's just surplus, and to be honest the only time I've really felt Sonic's issues might be down to budget were with Team Sonic Racing; even Forces just seemed more like a perfect storm of bad design choices than it being underfunded. Likewise, people frequently cite Unleashed as a game with an enormous budget... despite SEGA's only comments on that front being that Unleashed had a fairly standard budget for a SEGA title. And it also didn't stop that game being ass, regardless of how much people want to substitute 'amibtion' with 'actual game quality' nowadays. 

This is less so about you or your point specifically, but nowadays when I see people say "SEGA still suck!", it's generally because they haven't actually given their current output even much of a look-in; and are instead hyperfocused on just getting sequels to games like Skies of, or Jet Set Radio. Or, well, Sonic. And I get it, I'd love a new JSR too; but I don't think JSR alone is the difference between "SEGA suck" and "SEGA are back". Hell, one of the things people beg for most is a remaster! (Of JSRF, specifically)

[Scar]

On 5/31/2020 at 12:11 PM, Jack at Home said:

Okay, fans can do whatever they want with their hopes, dreams, or lack of them.

We really need to be less self-entitled and let the others keep their opinion. lol, that's where I'm wrong, personally.

But still, I don't have to agree with them, I'm convinced "cynisim and pessimism" are bullshit, in life, period. They are just pointless, they are destructive, they don't take people anywhere. I know we are talking about a blue hedgehog, but still, I don't have to accept that attitude. It's just inner bitter and anger talking IMO.

Its not really self entitlement to be brutally honest.

Its simply just being cognisant of the fact that you are very likely to end up disappointed in a product made by Sonic Team. The last time this didn't happen was a year shy of a decade ago, and even that game; Generations, was barely an 8/10 to the wider gaming community.

You are more than welcome to think what you will of pessimism and cynicism. That's your prerogative. But in the case of Sonic the Hedgehog, its not even cynicism or pessimism any more. Its just realism. I have simply lowered my expectations of what Sonic Team are actually capable of. They can say whatever the fuck they want, but words are wind. After 15 goddamn years of disappointment I want some evidence. 

And just as you consider cynicism pointless, I consider blind optimism and faith in a team with a suspect track record to be nothing short of naivety. And naivety is in many ways worse than cynicism. It leaves you blind to reality. More than cynicism, it is actually the vector for stagnation. 

I used to be the same way. I used to hear some nice words from Sonic Team. They've learned their lessons. They're taking their time with game development. And I used to hopelessly believe that it would yield in some progress. It did not. I just can't be bothered to give Sonic Team the benefit of the doubt any more. No matter what they say. As I've said. Words are wind. I want to see results now. And not just one game. String a few 8+/10 games together, and then maybe I'll be a bit more forgiving. 

Its not self-entitlement, cause I'm not really making any demands. The sad reality is I frankly do not care as much as I used to. I don't have the energy to get excited or optimistic about Sonic any more.

[Wraith]

51 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

But that only really goes for SEGA AGES and the Panzer remakes (not to mention PD is getting a new title anyway, though a VR one).

I'm not really arsed about how much money goes into a game as long as it's good; Sonic Mania was probably made on a shoestring budget compared to most Sonic titles, but that stop it embarrassing most of SEGA's own Sonic output. Likewise, Streets of Rage 4 probably didn't have a huge budget, but I play SoR4 and wonder; did it really need more money pumping into it? It's a satisfying beat-em-up and perhaps more money might've got us another character or something, but I don't think it'd make a huge difference when they already worked wonders with what they had. Likewise, Yakuza, Valkyria Chronicles and Sakura Wars don't strike me as budget titles.

SEGA's output isn't flawless, but my issues with games like Sakura Wars usually fall down to stuff like narrative problems or gameplay mechanics, not that they feel underfunded. You can only pump so much money into something before it's just surplus, and to be honest the only time I've really felt Sonic's issues might be down to budget were with Team Sonic Racing; even Forces just seemed more like a perfect storm of bad design choices than it being underfunded. Likewise, people frequently cite Unleashed as a game with an enormous budget... despite SEGA's only comments on that front being that Unleashed had a fairly standard budget for a SEGA title. And it also didn't stop that game being ass, regardless of how much people want to substitute 'amibtion' with 'actual game quality' nowadays. 

This is less so about you or your point specifically, but nowadays when I see people say "SEGA still suck!", it's generally because they haven't actually given their current output even much of a look-in; and are instead hyperfocused on just getting sequels to games like Skies of, or Jet Set Radio. Or, well, Sonic. And I get it, I'd love a new JSR too; but I don't think JSR alone is the difference between "SEGA suck" and "SEGA are back". Hell, one of the things people beg for most is a remaster! (Of JSRF, specifically)

I understand your perspective but I'm also tired of the whole 'enlightened sega fan lectures the old guard/Sonic fan' shtick. As someone who actually has played most of Sega's modern output it comes off as a little condescending. 

Games like Sonic Mania and SOR4 are really good but not as interesting as a lot of the new action games or platformers cutting out due to the sheer lack of ambition in their mechanical design. This doesn't make them bad games, but I'd like them to be breaking new ground with their IPs more, even if it's just innovating more within the constraints of classic Sonic design or whatever. 

I'm not sure of the specifics on budgets so I shouldn't have used that terminology, but as someone who's been going through the Yakuza series over the last year or so I've been disappointed in how..samey they feel? Of course, that's why Like a Dragon exists and I'm looking forward to that.

Overall they still cling too strongly to their old library. They're doing a lot of ports and remasters and not all of them have been up to par. Banana Blitz HD was fucking terrible but it's already been swept under the rug. I don't play Panzer Dragoon but I didn't hear good things there either. 

I'm not nostalgic for JSR and Nights so much, more for a time where Sega would release something like it. Something that was on the cutting edge of the market, employing a lot of modern day mechanics and techniques, and having a more modern cultural punch. 

I never said modern sega is bad, but they are a little boring. 

[Balding Spider]

Not really expecting much, at most a Saturn/Dreamcast-mini. At the very least, a series of Sonic ports.

[Tracker_TD]

24 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

Games like Sonic Mania and SOR4 are really good but not as interesting as a lot of the new action games or platformers cutting out due to the sheer lack of ambition in their mechanical design. This doesn't make them bad games, but I'd like them to be breaking new ground with their IPs more, even if it's just innovating more within the constraints of classic Sonic design or whatever. 

Thing is, part of my reason for initially being lukewarm on SoR4 is that it was too different from past SoR games. I warmed up to it once I got a feel for it, but as a result I feel like it's a textbook example of how they can build on the old stuff, reworking mechanics such as the specials taking health, or the new emphasis on combos rather than just punch loops. They basically overhauled SoR's mechanics, without losing what makes it Streets of Rage.

I dunno; I get wanting 'new stuff', but if I'm sitting down with a Streets of Rage game, I kind of want a Streets of Rage game. Same deal with Sonic. That's not to say they always have to stay exactly the same, but SoR4 doesn't. Mania doesn't either, although it could very easily have gone further and that's what most people want out of a potential sequel. I don't need some radical reinvention every game, because then we get stuff like sluggish mech shooting with no real sense of flow in its controls in 3D Sonic, and that's really not what I sit down for. 

[FlameStream]

Despite being wildly different, FF7R and Trials of Mana are examples of generally well received remakes, though. I think the key is that it needs to adapt to the audience's current taste. But that's another subject altogether.

Going back to Sonic, as many pointed out, the problem with 3D Sonic that it doesn't scale well with the expectation of the generation; the return on investment is pretty low (perhaps borderline negative if everything is met) compared to other games.

It really needs some change, but I can understand why it's a hard problem. I mean we can see here that a lot of people are still talking about longer bigger levels when that is essentially the big issue.

If slowing him down goes against his character, one of the possible venue is to play a character not bound by jumpingandgoingfast and have Sonic be a secondary character present in the universe helping you out in key moments.

[expansivelovestories]

On 5/29/2020 at 2:55 PM, expansivelovestories said:

Yes; I wonder if they have considered some type of specialty console?  For retro and quasi-retro releases there are some options, usually Switch, but i could see SEGA realizing there is a fairly huge opening to make a console especially for retro developers!!  

A basic example would be: 16bit graphics and audio chips accessible by a present-day CPU?  I am not sure that would work , but the idea is that the graphics and audio wouldn't be merely emulated, yet the processes running could be very different from the original Genesis' capabilities; such as online play, as well as the programming and memory/space used by the games! 

I remember the author/journalist specified that it is not Dreamcast 2; but maybe, a theoretical console would have both 16, 32, and 128 bit cards included, as that is a very retro format now!  it could be very upgraded from what was possible in 1998 too! 

Would it be possible to even mix output from these cards together in-game? 

That would be something significantly new and weird, enough to be a surprise on the level that has been suggested!

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

 

This isn't a bad take for the console theorists out there. 

[Kuzu]

On 6/1/2020 at 11:52 AM, Tracker_TD said:

Thing is, part of my reason for initially being lukewarm on SoR4 is that it was too different from past SoR games. I warmed up to it once I got a feel for it, but as a result I feel like it's a textbook example of how they can build on the old stuff, reworking mechanics such as the specials taking health, or the new emphasis on combos rather than just punch loops. They basically overhauled SoR's mechanics, without losing what makes it Streets of Rage.

I dunno; I get wanting 'new stuff', but if I'm sitting down with a Streets of Rage game, I kind of want a Streets of Rage game. Same deal with Sonic. That's not to say they always have to stay exactly the same, but SoR4 doesn't. Mania doesn't either, although it could very easily have gone further and that's what most people want out of a potential sequel. I don't need some radical reinvention every game, because then we get stuff like sluggish mech shooting with no real sense of flow in its controls in 3D Sonic, and that's really not what I sit down for. 

I suppose this is related more to my personal tastes as a person, but I'd honestly prefer a game that tries to do something more and falter than a game that simply does just enough to get by. Do not get me wrong, I loved Mania and I do think it was a wonderful game, and from what I've seen of SOR4, it is similarly a great game that builds on what the classics did. 

But I grew up in an era when Sonic wasn't afraid to take risks and go headfirst into a new idea regardless of what the outcome was; I know that isn't exactly good business sense in the long run, but ever since 2010 things have just been so lackadcial and boring. I don't wanna say that there's no care, but it does certainly feel like the series is just going through the motions at this point.