Sonic 30th predictions

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I suppose this is related more to my personal tastes as a person, but I'd honestly prefer a game that tries to do something more and falter than a game that simply does just enough to get by. Do not get me wrong, I loved Mania and I do think it was a wonderful game, and from what I've seen of SOR4, it is similarly a great game that builds on what the classics did. 

But I grew up in an era when Sonic wasn't afraid to take risks and go headfirst into a new idea regardless of what the outcome was; I know that isn't exactly good business sense in the long run, but ever since 2010 things have just been so lackadcial and boring. I don't wanna say that there's no care, but it does certainly feel like the series is just going through the motions at this point. 

I feel almost the opposite of you. I think many fans in this series don't put enough value on quality control, it is really underappreciated for some strange reason.  Games that are known for being simple, fun, and functional are a lot better than games with broken or sloppy mechanics, etc, just because people had a grand vision in their mind and not enough time to work it out. Potential can in fact be wasted. 

 

I've been wanting the same damn Sonic game for over 20 years. Which is basically SA1 but a tad more classic-y and open world-y with obviously much more polished mechanics. Maybe I'll get it someday, maybe I won't. But I damn sure am not asking for a team to make it that isn't capable, because it's just going to make me suffer worse as a fan. All Sonic fans should know this, since both Sonic 4 and 06 happened. So I'd rather definitely have a a generations 2, which is solid fun with a character that I have always loved, instead of watching someone f**k up my dreams and the franchise even further. I want to see Sonic be awesome again, and not just once per decade. 

 

[Wraith]

Taking risks isn't something that only comes if you sacrifice quality control. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

17 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

Taking risks isn't something that only comes if you sacrifice quality control. 

And? If you release a game and don't test its ideas and mechanics thoroughly, you are taking a risk that people will like it and buy it? Edit: I mean, you are anyway for sure, but releasing something without it being tested raises the chances it won't be received the way you want it to be. 

This series took risks over and over during the 2000s for consistently putting out games without regard to quality control. If noting else, that happened. So whats the use in saying something like that? 

Aaron Webber just said it outright on a livestream less than a week ago... 

[Wraith]

10 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

And? If you release a game and don't test its ideas and mechanics thoroughly, you are taking a risk that people will like it and buy it? 

This series took risks over and over during the 2000s for consistently putting out games without regard to quality control. If noting else, that happened. So whats the use in saying something like that? 

Aaron Webber just said it outright on a livestream less than a week ago... 

I'm saying that you shouldn't have to choose between taking risks and quality control. It's simply not a decision consumers should have to argue about because no matter how different the new Sonic game is from the last one, quality control should be a priority. 

To put it another way: whether you liked the new ideas in Breath of the Wild or found them alienating, it is an undeniably polished experience. Every Zelda game is. 

On the flipside, There are Sonic games that are completely different from the last one and set it upon themselves to juggle as many new gameplay concepts as they can, and Sonic games built strictly off the foundations of other, great Sonic games. No matter which end of the spectrum I'm talking about, there are more than a few examples of games were subpar and needed more time in the polishing phase.

Quality control is not enough of a priority when it comes to Sega. It's a completely separate problem than the question whether they're taking enough risks or not. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Wrapped in Black said:

I'm saying that you shouldn't have to choose between taking risks and quality control. It's simply not a decision consumers should have to argue about because no matter how different the new Sonic game is from the last one, quality control should be a priority. 

To put it another way: whether you liked the new ideas in Breath of the Wild or found them alienating, it is an undeniably polished experience. Every Zelda game is. 

On the flipside, There are Sonic games that are completely different from the last one and set it upon themselves to juggle as many new gameplay concepts as they can, and Sonic games built strictly off the foundations of other, great Sonic games. No matter which end of the spectrum I'm talking about, there are more than a few examples of games were subpar and needed more time in the polishing phase.

Quality control is not enough of a priority when it comes to Sega. It's a completely separate problem than the question whether they're taking enough risks or not. 

I dont think it's separate. If quality control was done more often, there are probably a lot of ideas that wouldn't at all have made it into numerous Sonic games. A lot of ideas in this series were born out of the necessity of having to release a new Sonic game every year instead of making the best game or best decision possible for the franchise long term. Sonic Team was extremely overworked for about a decade and forced to release things per contract before any baking or marinating of ideas could be done. 

I do understand your point though. 

 

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I feel almost the opposite of you. I think many fans in this series don't put enough value on quality control, it is really underappreciated for some strange reason.  Games that are known for being simple, fun, and functional are a lot better than games with broken or sloppy mechanics, etc, just because people had a grand vision in their mind and not enough time to work it out. Potential can in fact be wasted. 

 

I've been wanting the same damn Sonic game for over 20 years. Which is basically SA1 but a tad more classic-y and open world-y with obviously much more polished mechanics. Maybe I'll get it someday, maybe I won't. But I damn sure am not asking for a team to make it that isn't capable, because it's just going to make me suffer worse as a fan. All Sonic fans should know this, since both Sonic 4 and 06 happened. So I'd rather definitely have a a generations 2, which is solid fun with a character that I have always loved, instead of watching someone f**k up my dreams and the franchise even further. I want to see Sonic be awesome again, and not just once per decade. 

 

No you don't, because I didn't say anything about quality control; why are you associating the idea of actually taking risks with quality control when the two aren't mutually exclusive?

1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I dont think it's separate. If quality control was done more often, there are probably a lot of ideas that wouldn't at all have made it into numerous Sonic games. A lot of ideas in this series were born out of the necessity of having to release a new Sonic game every year instead of making the best game or best decision possible for the franchise long term. Sonic Team was extremely overworked for about a decade and forced to release things per contract before any baking or marinating of ideas could be done. 

I do understand your point though. 

 

It is seperate regardless of how you feel; video game companies in general prioritize quality control above anything. Making sure the game works properly is not the same as actually implementing ideas that aren't just standard and going through the motions. 

[expansivelovestories]

whatever the Famitsu tease is, it will be late enough in the morning of June 4th in Japan for people to go find it in less than twelve hours!   

[Tracker_TD]

Just now, expansivelovestories said:

whatever the Famitsu tease is, it will be late enough in the morning of June 4th in Japan for people to go find it in less than twelve hours!   

The Famitsu news already dropped. It's Fog Gaming, a system SEGA's currently researching to allow arcade operators to leverage their machines into a cloud-style network, allowing them to continue earning even after closing; something that's especially welcome given how many arcades have been driven to the brink by COVID-19. 

[expansivelovestories]

Oh!!  That is incredible, and very creative too!  Thank you for the update Tracker!

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

15 hours ago, Kuzu said:

No you don't, because I didn't say anything about quality control; why are you associating the idea of actually taking risks with quality control when the two aren't mutually exclusive?

It is seperate regardless of how you feel; video game companies in general prioritize quality control above anything. Making sure the game works properly is not the same as actually implementing ideas that aren't just standard and going through the motions. 

Are you trying to say that quality control and taking risks ARE mutually exclusive ideas? I'm a tad confused by your wording. I'm suggesting is that they are strongly interrelated in the game development business, particularly in this franchise. And the very simple reason why, is because of brand management. 

You made a statement about preferring when the company "took risks" with the brand and released all sorts of Sonic games of varying ideas and quality. I feel the opposite of that, I prefer consistency. You seem not to understand that a very basic idea of brand management, especially in regard to quality, is consistency, and there is no possible way you can separate that from the discussion. Constantly diverging from what you primarily promote or represent will dilute the quality of your brand. It is vitally important to stay on cue, or on brand. This is 101, there's lots of reading on this. And in the 2000s sonic was all over the goddman place. Quality control has multiple aspects in business, and in this one; it does not just refer to whether a game mechanic is broken or not. It also refers to whether or not it belongs in the game in the first place. I can provide some reading on this if you'd like, not trying to off as condescending at all, so please excuse me, I sincerely mean it.

Again, It is well documented how rushed Sonic Team was during the 2000s and how confused they were with what to do with Sonic. They did what they had to do to stuff features and concepts into games very often without consideration of the player experience or brand long term because they had to. If Sonic Team had had more time to carefully think on what they were doing in the 2000s and more support, a lot games of the games are probably much different. And not just in things like working physics, but actual game content. This is undeniably true. 

[Styx_Linoone]

5 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

The Famitsu news already dropped. It's Fog Gaming, a system SEGA's currently researching to allow arcade operators to leverage their machines into a cloud-style network, allowing them to continue earning even after closing; something that's especially welcome given how many arcades have been driven to the brink by COVID-19. 

From what I can gather, SEGA is the frontman behind this revolutionary technology. The idea of operating even beyond closure of their offices (Japan) could encourage other companies like Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony and Capcom to do the same granted it's safe to do so. Remember, this is the same company where blast processing technology was born, SEGA can do anything new, hardware-wise.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Are you trying to say that quality control and taking risks ARE mutually exclusive ideas? I'm a tad confused by your wording. I'm suggesting is that they are strongly interrelated in the game development business, particularly in this franchise. And the very simple reason why, is because of brand management. 

You made a statement about preferring when the company "took risks" with the brand and released all sorts of Sonic games of varying ideas and quality. I feel the opposite of that, I prefer consistency. You seem not to understand that a very basic idea of brand management, especially in regard to quality, is consistency, and there is no possible way you can separate that from the discussion. Constantly diverging from what you primarily promote or represent will dilute the quality of your brand. It is vitally important to stay on cue, or on brand. This is 101, there's lots of reading on this. And in the 2000s sonic was all over the goddman place. Quality control has multiple aspects in business, and in this one; it does not just refer to whether a game mechanic is broken or not. It also refers to whether or not it belongs in the game in the first place. I can provide some reading on this if you'd like, not trying to off as condescending at all, so please excuse me, I sincerely mean it.

Again, It is well documented how rushed Sonic Team was during the 2000s and how confused they were with what to do with Sonic. They did what they had to do to stuff features and concepts into games very often without consideration of the player experience or brand long term because they had to. If Sonic Team had had more time to carefully think on what they were doing in the 2000s and more support, a lot games of the games are probably much different. And not just in things like working physics, but actual game content. This is undeniably true. 

If you wanna talk about brand recognition, then the series sold more back in the 2000's than it does nowadays, because there was always some niche covered; you had Sonic X for the TV show, you had the Archie comics, you had the 2D games on the handheld, and you had the 3D games on consoles.

There has been nothing as notable as that in the 2010's; the only show the series has in 2010 was Sonic Boom and that show never took off inspite of the praise it got because the Sonic Boom brand itself was considered a colossal failure, to the point where Sega had to restructure itself due to how much they lost. Besides that, the entire last decade saw the least amount of games released. The handheld games were all but done, the Archie comics were canceled, and on top of that the space between releases started to get wider. Lost World and Forces had a four year gap, and it is still wildly considered a failure along with Lost World.

There are certainly many factors to this that go beyond the quality of the products, but you're not going to sit here and tell me that the brand image of Sonic was somehow worse in the 2000's. Because even if 06 was fucking dogshit, you still had other venues of the franchise making bank.

 

There is literally nothing else that's been pulling bank right now besides the movie.

[Dr. Detective]

For any other company, the timing of this anniversary could actually be considered pretty good considering they have some momentum going with the movie and the IDW comics but it definitely could stand to not matter at all if all they putter out is another Sonic Forces. If there was ever a time to do it, it would be in a time where they've had the benefit of hindsight from how Mania was received, how Boom was received, how Forces was recieved, and the fact that 4 years have gone by and presumeably they don't have another engine to worry about making. 

If they can't pull off something with all that under their belt then as far as the mainline 3D games are concerned I may have to finally just give up. I don't know if I have another 12 years of waiting left in me. At the end of the decade my favorite Sonic games are probably just going to be whatever Sumo Digital does for them next. 

[SKSpawn]

I'd honestly be happy with a bigger, better sequel to Sonic Mania but it looks like SEGA have no intention of following up on that game's popularity and all the good it did for their franchise so I guess we'll probably see some kind of digital-wide sale of Sonic titles, possible a new 3D Sonic game announced, and, maybe, another HD remake of Sonic Adventure. Being as I'm perfectly happy with the job they did with Sonic Adventure DX: Director's Cut, I can't say I'd be too impressed with that.

It'd be nice if they followed up the Mega Drive Mini with a Mega Drive 2 Mini that included the likes of Sonic CD and Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, or a new Sonic compliation that included all the 2D Sonic titles from the Master System, Game Gear, Mega Drive (including Sonic 3 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles), and Mega-CD games but also included Knuckles' Chaotix and the ports of Sonic, Sonic 2, and Sonic CD developed by the Mania team. In a perfect world, I'd also like to see all the Dreamcast titles tossed into this as well (yes, even Sonic Shuffle) as well as all the arcade titles; even if that meant the compilation had  ahigher-than-normal price tag, I'd probably pay it for the game selection and Achievements alone.

But yeah, just Sonic Mania 2 would be awesome...so we'll probably get Sonic Forces 2...

 

 

[expansivelovestories]

i doublechecked the IGN summer games event and there are three *June 5th, June 15th, and June 24th "Unannounced game reveals" which are in the form of trailers.

There are only three of these spread throughout the event so i think at least a few of them are to be significant.  SEGA is openly participating in the event with other games, of course no Sonic entries listed outright but as many people have noticed, the presence of Sonic on the promotional artwork, and trailers that were already prepared for SxSW, one of those days is probably it!!

[Red Hot Jack]

If I recall correctly, it's Sega of America who is handling Sonic right now? Correct me if I'm wrong. That alone should give us some clues for the next main game and direction, considering Forces was basically Japan vs America the Sega civil war.

Japan wanted a serious approach, hence the war, Infinite being ridiculously dark, Shadow acting like an anti-hero, and they wanted the whole game with the Avatar as protagonist with Sonic getting rescued later. From what I heard at least, SoA wanted Sonic as protagonist, wanted to include Classic Sonic, possibly Shadow as villain, Zavok (Not sure about this, both SoA and SoJ like him), the staples like Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Death Egg Robots (everywhere), Egg Dragoon.

So if I had to take a guess at what the direction will be for the next game IF it's handled by SoA.

- No Avatar or Infinite, which were japan ideas, most stuff from Forces dropped, because the game was hated

- 2 Sonics, 2 gameplays, 3D and 2D, it's not just SoA IMO but people in the west have more nostalgia with Classic Sonic, so I would expect him, this way they can cash on both Modern and Classic fans in one game, it's an easy bet

- Returning villains, Shadow (from what I understood from the IDW controversy, SoA wants him to stay as an edgy rival), Metal Sonic, Zavok, maaybe Chaos if they want to make a throwback from SA1

- More staple zones and bosses, so expect more reused locations, probably, you guessed it, Green Hill! I'm personally hoping for different returning zones... and of course new zones altogether, more new ideas

- Lighter tone, jokes, the story may not take itself seriously, less anime-serious stuff, more like the tone of the shorts

- Wisps as power-ups somewhere in the game

- Eggman as main antagonist and final boss

- Sonic's friends as cameos and supporting roles, I have no idea if ANY of them will be playable

That's my prediction, if those are the circumstances, as you can see I'm not really keen on the apparent direction of Sega of America, so I kinda hope I'm wrong. But this is just the returning stuff, obviously they will try new things as they usually do... just I would expect those returning features and themes.

 

[Tracker_TD]

You basically just said "Sonic Forces, but without the Avatar". Even if folks' expectations aren't great, I somehow doubt they're going to make the exact same game again. 

[Blue Blood]

2 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

You basically just said "Sonic Forces, but without the Avatar". Even if folks' expectations aren't great, I somehow doubt they're going to make the exact same game again. 

Right. I'm going to brush aside all speculation about story, plot, art style, tone etc for now and just focus on the "two Sonics" thing. SEGA has got to be aware of the fact that from the moment that Project Sonic 2017 was revealed, the inclusion of Classic Sonic was met with contention and confusion. And while I'm struggling to find the exact interview right now, SEGA stated that Classic Sonic was included in Forces to introduce younger fans to that side of the franchise, particularly to get them interested in Mania. Personally I call bullshit on that and say that the true reason is because Generations did it and they wanted to copy that. Much as they can claim otherwise, Forces tries its darndest to copy Generations outright. 

Classic Sonic in Forces has a mere six levels and one boss fight. He doesn't go to Metropolis, he doesn't have any tag-team levels, he doesn't have any dynamic QTEs in his levels, he doesn't have any bonus/unclockable stages, his involvement with the plot is so minor that he doesn't even interact with Modern Sonic and the Avatar. The lack of content and focus he gets suggests that he was something of an after-thought, or that they didn't really want him to be part of the game. He's largely regarded to be the low point of a game met with mixed-to-mediocre reception.

I don't know what to expect from the big Sonic game for 2021, but I'm pretty sure Classic Sonic won't be a part of it unless it's a Classic Sonic game. And that's a whole different kettle of fish right there because eeeesh I do not want to see SEGA how much SEGA would butcher that.

[Multikaris]

On 6/3/2020 at 12:25 PM, Kuzu said:

If you wanna talk about brand recognition, then the series sold more back in the 2000's than it does nowadays, because there was always some niche covered; you had Sonic X for the TV show, you had the Archie comics, you had the 2D games on the handheld, and you had the 3D games on consoles.

There has been nothing as notable as that in the 2010's; the only show the series has in 2010 was Sonic Boom and that show never took off inspite of the praise it got because the Sonic Boom brand itself was considered a colossal failure, to the point where Sega had to restructure itself due to how much they lost. Besides that, the entire last decade saw the least amount of games released. The handheld games were all but done, the Archie comics were canceled, and on top of that the space between releases started to get wider. Lost World and Forces had a four year gap, and it is still wildly considered a failure along with Lost World.

There are certainly many factors to this that go beyond the quality of the products, but you're not going to sit here and tell me that the brand image of Sonic was somehow worse in the 2000's. Because even if 06 was fucking dogshit, you still had other venues of the franchise making bank.

 

There is literally nothing else that's been pulling bank right now besides the movie.

There is also the acclaimed IDW comic, but even then it's pulling in nowhere near the same audience as Archie. 

[Red Hot Jack]

8 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

There is also the acclaimed IDW comic, but even then it's pulling in nowhere near the same audience as Archie. 

Actually, doesn't the IDW comic sell more than the Archie one did in the past? In its home country, but they are also releasing it in more countries. I admit I'm more of an IDW fan, I was a fan of Archie during its time, I still prefer the current direction.

Whatever, enough of the IDW VS Archie thing. I just want a good comic and a good story, and I'm very glad SEGA is acknowledging the current comics more than what they have done in the past.

[SonicLegends]

6 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

Actually, doesn't the IDW comic sell more than the Archie one did in the past? In its home country, but they are also releasing it in more countries. I admit I'm more of an IDW fan, I was a fan of Archie during its time, I still prefer the current direction.

Whatever, enough of the IDW VS Archie thing. I just want a good comic and a good story, and I'm very glad SEGA is acknowledging the current comics more than what they have done in the past.

Let's hope that it means we can actually get some good story going on in the games with having Ian Flynn giving them some direction.

[Dr. Mechano]

I want Mania 2; All new zones, maybe a couple new playable characters like Amy or even a Chaotix rep. That's the dream, anyway.

What I honestly expect is just a boost game anniversary title. Not Forces 2, probably not even Generations 2. Nah, it'll be something different, but with the same basic gameplay. Avatar's definitely gone. Sonic Team's janky attempt at "Classic Sonic" may or may not come back. But I'm not expecting anyone not named "Sonic" to be playable.

Iizuka said "no more Adventure formula" years ago, so I'm not expecting Sonic Team to ditch the boost gameplay anytime soon, not even for a remake. I'll be pleasantly surprised to get an Adventure game, especially if it's a new one rather than just SA1 or SA2 again, but given the man himself said it's dead, I'm not getting my hopes up.

[Red Hot Jack]

I believe we are getting Adventure celebration Mania-esque style, so basically a game with new content and remixed stages as they've done in the past.

It's not too out there to think they will be covering "Adventure nostalgia" next. SA2 is 20 years in 2021... I just think it's the right moment, and with them acknowledging at least the SA series, Iizuka's desire for a remake (which I don't think is happening), the return of Chao in general spotlight, mostly the Chao in Space animation, as well as Big the Cat, so there is a good chance they may do something with it.

I mean, the PR guy on reddit did say they will keep one foot in nostalgia and one foot in the future with new content, with the Sonic series. So they will continue to mix old and new stuff, it's just the obvious step as they can't remix Green Hill and Chemical Plant forever.

The Avatar... I wish it wasn't gone and wasted like that, there is an amazing potential with that feature, with our creative community and popular OC creations... meh, why not bring that back? It would even fit a new Adventure game with the customization and feel. It would feel so right, I know we want to play as canon characters, but the Avatar really could be unique if done well, it just happened to be in the worst game possible, eh. But no, I'm not sure if it'll be back, usually they bring back the successful features, how was the Avatar received in Forces? I recall it was one of the best parts, aside from the clunky physics and its level design in stages. Part of me thinks it won't be back because it was a Japan idea, and Sonic is currently being developed by SoA... so yeah, I believe they will want to keep using Classic Sonic instead, sadly, in a main game, ESPECIALLY if there is no Mania 2 on the horizon...

[Drisaac]

I'm honestly speechless for the fact that SEGA didn't immediately greenlight a sonic mania 2, and instead let the mania team run away and create their own game company rising sun

No seriously, what the fuck is wrong with SEGA ? Sonic mania was received by both critics and fans as an immense success, and brought in a shit ton of cash despite the game having a low budget, the only thing SEGA needed to do was to simply let the mania team work on a sequel on their own without the need of supervision, but no, they just grabbed the money and called it a day, i knew SEGA was stupid but i cannot believe they are THIS STUPID to not propose a mania 2. I just have no words really.

[Wraith]

26 minutes ago, Drisaac said:

I'm honestly speechless for the fact that SEGA didn't immediately greenlight a sonic mania 2, and instead let the mania team run away and create their own game company rising sun

No seriously, what the fuck is wrong with SEGA ? Sonic mania was received by both critics and fans as an immense success, and brought in a shit ton of cash despite the game having a low budget, the only thing SEGA needed to do was to simply let the mania team work on a sequel on their own without the need of supervision, but no, they just grabbed the money and called it a day, i knew SEGA was stupid but i cannot believe they are THIS STUPID to not propose a mania 2. I just have no words really.

Maybe they proposed it and the team wanted to do something else.

Maybe they proposed it and the team said yes.

WE don't actually know what went down yet and we probably won't know for sure for some time.