Sonic 30th predictions

[Jango]

44 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

So I'd love to be naieve and secretly hope Sonic Team has been working on a hidden mega project all this time

Not for long, they're not. I believe Iizuka himself said to a magazine or something that the next game already started development, but it was just a few months ago. 

Kinda of amazing how Sonic Unleashed, which was arguibly Sonic Team's last big Sonic game was developed in 2 and a half years. That game was meaty. 

I have barely to no fate in these guys, a lot of the people from Generations and Colors were gone IIRC, we thought the guys who made Forces were the infamous "B team", but apparently they were what's left of Sonic Team + some newbies.

I beg for a Mania sequel... But I'm skeptical if it will ever happen.

[The Famous Sonic]

I don't think SXSW is going to happen at all this because of Coronavirus. That means we won't get any Sonic announcements this year. 

[McGroose]

7 hours ago, Jango said:

Not for long, they're not. I believe Iizuka himself said to a magazine or something that the next game already started development, but it was just a few months ago. 

Kinda of amazing how Sonic Unleashed, which was arguibly Sonic Team's last big Sonic game was developed in 2 and a half years. That game was meaty. 

I have barely to no fate in these guys, a lot of the people from Generations and Colors were gone IIRC, we thought the guys who made Forces were the infamous "B team", but apparently they were what's left of Sonic Team + some newbies.

I beg for a Mania sequel... But I'm skeptical if it will ever happen.

That's a good way to describe Unleashed, I think. It definitely a big heck of a game, especially with all the DLC (and for 2008 in general). Forces barely had 1/3 of what Unleashed had in terms of content, yet both were in the development for the same amount of time, give or take. That's the current state of Sega, unfortunately.I don't know if the reception Forces received will be enough of a kick in the ass to Sega to make them realize that they really need to get their stuff together and start making games that aren't just mediocre.  I want a game I can always come back to and enjoy, not a game I beat once and put first on the top of my uninstall list to save up on hard drive space.  

Some form of Mania content is almost guaranteed, there is no way Sega is that stupid. Classic Sonic isn't going anywhere, for better or for worse. We shit on Sega all the time for having made poorly thought out decisions with their games and the direction of the franchise as a whole, but I can 100% guarantee they know that Mania is where the money train is. How couldn't they? The amount of Classic Sonic material we're seeing nowadays is almost equal to the amount of Modern Sonic content we get. 

I think the future of Modern Sonic will probably see another new style of 3D gameplay. Whether or not it's good, or whether or not it's half 2.5D or not, remains to be seen. 

[Jango]

1 hour ago, McGroose said:

there is no way Sega is that stupid.

MAYBE?!? The worst part is: we never know for sure when it comes to good old SEGA.

They certainly have a reputation for screwing up good chances.

[Detective Kaito]

On 2/26/2020 at 6:51 PM, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

3) Sonic Forces Sequel: Forces was released to mediocre reviews and many diehard fans didnt seem to like it at all. However, it seemed to do okay with sales. Whatever ST has been working on, if development started last year I dont think they would be building something from scratch unless they had a lot of confidence. I think they might prefer to iterate on the things that have worked for them recently, including some elements of Forces which were received positively and just refine further

This is what I'm expecting. But Sega ditched the Havok engine starting with Mario & Sonic Tokyo 2020, so Sonic Team could be using a new physics engine which means they can't exactly just bring Forces and build off of it.

Still, the return of Boost Sonic and the Avatar is guaranteed I think, which means the return of the Wispon. Maybe they'll make Shadow playable again and give him a more prominent role in the story, but that's pretty much it for other characters.

11 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Interesting how we think it's impossible for Sega to do 2 full sized main games at the same time these days, whil they did that all the time in the past.
Of course back then the quality of these games was subpar, while the quality of the current main games is...err... Slightly more stable subpar?

It seems like they're a much smaller team working with a much smaller budget compared to 10 years ago. Most of Sega's money and people are working on Yakuza games, currently it's an annual series with a fuck ton of games and remakes. But even that series is starting to decline in sales a bit if Yakuza 7 was any indication. For now, this is what Sonic Team is stuck with until they make a critically and financially successful game, there's no reason to give them a higher budget if they're gonna make shit after all.

My biggest hope is that Morio Kishimoto isn't the Director of Sonic 2021. They should learn by now that he's not the man for the job.

[Red Hot Jack]

I'm not against Forces 2 tbh, more like... what I would personally like is keep Forces' decent ideas (they were cool, c'mon), but they really need to overhaul gameplay completely. Boost may return yeah, not a fan of it, but it's a successful formula, no doubt, so just don't make it as simple as Forces or as speed oriented as Unleashed, Generations was perfect, it was 3D, it was exploration oriented, very good stages, the problem here is literally the direction, I agree that Kishimoto shouldn't be the director anymore, he insisted for simplicity and linearity, these games are freaking easy at the moment. Same for the graphic department, I mean, Forces was somewhat balanced, yeah, but still, they could do better with graphic direction as well.

So from Forces keep:

+ Boost: but the compromise here is make it more 3D and open a la Generations

+ Playable Shadow: give him more space as well as a Hard Mode of some kind

+ Avatar: Make more options available to customize, it's a great idea that could be expanded, especially  in an Adventure-style game

+ Story: deep but balanced, not edgy. I would bring back Infinite, if anything just to explain what happened to him and explore the conflict with Shadow.

Drop:

- Simple direction: just don't make the game too easy

- Over abundance of 2D: drop Classic Sonic, he already has his own adventures in his likely upcoming sub-franchise

Add/Bring back:

* Chao Garden

* Multiplayer

* Missions/Challenges

Is that too much to ask for? If they cut on something I listed, I personally wouldn't mind, the point is by making a more focused game (on less features), there may be a bigger chance of quality here.

Plus: don't forget the infamous poll made by Aaron a while back: Avatar, Chao Garden, Multiplayer, missions, they were ALL included.

[Wildcat]

Ya Forces just needed to be longer and a bit more challenging. Definitely add more to the Avatars. The first create-a-character though was obviously going to be basic. It wasn’t a bad game just needed more content.

This is more of a prediction overall as in I think it’ll eventually happen. Finally bring the Freedom Fighters into the games. Sally, Bunnie, etc. It’s something that has not been done (I know there’s a video of a SatAm concept game). They don’t need to all be playable. Maybe just those 2 to begin with since Sally went on missions with Sonic and Bunnie has robotics.

I guess some think they’ll never do this but I do because I’m sure they know there’s a fan base for it and they’ve literally never used them. Like I doubt they’d ignore them forever. The Archie comics ended but imo that’s a great reason to revive them.

I don’t mean base games on the comics. Just bring them in and use the comic/show as their origins or treat them like new characters and give them a new-ish backstory. They introduce new characters all the time anyway.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

As much as I’d like to speculate, what do we really have to go on? We don’t know how long the next game has been in development, what kind of talent is working on it, what tone they’re going for, or even how we will control Sonic’s movement. I’m starved for some information, just so I have some clue as to where I should set my expectations. We don’t have that. 

[Roger_van_der_weide]

14 hours ago, Detective Kaito said:

It seems like they're a much smaller team working with a much smaller budget compared to 10 years ago.  <..>. For now, this is what Sonic Team is stuck with until they make a critically and financially successful game, there's no reason to give them a higher budget if they're gonna make shit after all.

Oh boy, I sure hope that won't create a downward spiral where the next game gets less budget, fails to impress, so the next game gets even less budget, will be received worse, so the next one gets less budget.
I suppose with the right talent, you can make a great game even on low budget. But then we need talent first. And good god, I'm already tired of the low budget filler games. Guess it'll just keep getting worse, huh?

Hope they'll be smart and make games where having cheaper production feels natural, like Sonic Mania, rather then making another Sonic Forces type game where the low budget sticks out like a sore thumb.


Blegh. Thank goodness for fangames, I'll just stick with those. The situation with the official games seems hopeless between Sonic Team's talent being gone, the series being run on desperation to find a magic formula rather then making good products and the ever decreasing budgets.

[expansivelovestories]

21 hours ago, The Famous Sonic said:

I don't think SXSW is going to happen at all this because of Coronavirus. That means we won't get any Sonic announcements this year. 

i think they will make announcements and maybe/probably show some version of the presentation from their own studio if so! 

[Natie]

I'd like to point out Sonic Team usually bends to the biggest criticisms, only now, people are analyzing the nitty gritty of how 3D Sonic gameplay should work more than ever before, as opposed to before, where they only had "green eyes!" "Shitty friends" and "sonic isnt fast enough" to work off of before. I say this to imply there's a tiny shred of hope to hold on to that they might try to make the 3D sonic they shoulda made 20 years ago. Everyone and their dog knows about freeform 3D momentum gameplay's importance to sonic now, and there's like a million different fanmade engines for it.

[The Man On The Inside]

Yeah, the "momentum in Sonic Utopia" video has close to 1.5m views. I don't think feedback can get any clearer than that.

[Jango]

11 hours ago, Natie said:

I'd like to point out Sonic Team usually bends to the biggest criticisms, only now, people are analyzing the nitty gritty of how 3D Sonic gameplay should work more than ever before, as opposed to before, where they only had "green eyes!" "Shitty friends" and "sonic isnt fast enough" to work off of before. I say this to imply there's a tiny shred of hope to hold on to that they might try to make the 3D sonic they shoulda made 20 years ago. Everyone and their dog knows about freeform 3D momentum gameplay's importance to sonic now, and there's like a million different fanmade engines for it.

I don't know man. I remember some people bashing Colors for having lots of automation and blocky level design, same goes for Sonic 4 Episode 1. Generations came out and it was arguibly the least automated of the boost saga (darn it, I can't no longer say boost trilogy, damn you Sonic Forces). People praised the level design, Seaside Hill and Sky Sanctuary always comes to mind. What Sonic Team did? Said fuck it, changed the formula in Lost World and automated the shit out of Sonic 4 Episode 2 even further. People complained once again, they went back with the boost formula, automated EVEN more the shit out of Modern Sonic levels on top of automating even more now Classic Sonic levels.

They are very bad at understanding criticisms. Like, real bad. They got it right with Generations, then it went downhill from there, most likely because part of the Generations dev team abandoned the ship. I don't get it. People were really happy with Modern Sonic level design in Gens, it felt like the team finally got it. We thought they would perfect it even more in the next game... And then LW happened. Sigh.

 

[The Man On The Inside]

Game developers thrive on clear and consistent feedback. The clearer the feedback, the easier it is to steer the ship in the right direction.  Imagine you're on a ship sailing the Atlantic, and you have no means of navigation. Eventually you get a compass, and then a map. The clouds clear away and then it turns night so you can navigate by the stars. Sure, there's nothing but ocean around you right now, but it's OK as you have all these indicators so you have a picture of where to go. Sonic Team, on the other hand, has been mired in stormy seas, drenched in fog, no map, no compass, with no means of navigation for a very long time.

They've basically never had clear and consistent feedback. It's frustrating when you don't know what to do in terms of game direction, even after multiple launches and reviews. The sales figures might say A, the reviewers B, the player analytics C, the fanbase D, the focus groups E...imagine being Sonic Team in the 2000's having to deal with all kinds of different responses with a clear direction rarely (if ever) being provided.

Sometimes the feedback is clear and concise, making it obvious what to do next. Unfortunately the feedback that was actually provided was essentially memes, where reviewers would wax lyrical on the story that was the fall of Sonic. Eventually certain things got through: "No guns, no werehog, no swords, no princesses, sonic only" - basically a list of restrictions, rather than a list of instructions, which eventually brought Colours. But at no point was there ever a clear path to a high (and by high I mean 90+) Metascore. There was never a clear message.

I would like to think that a message has finally emerged, and it is one that I agree with: Make a momentum-based Sonic game in full 3D. The most popular 3D fangames we've seen over the last few years are the ones that bring the classic physics, the rolling, and the interaction with curved surfaces into 3D. As it turns out, it can be done, and it can be compelling.I think this is the path to the 90+ Metascore.

As mentioned, the video on YT titled "Momentum in Sonic Utopia" has 1.5m views. There are tons of comments saying how good it is and there seems to be a general sentiment of "I would play this despite not being a Sonic fan." This is basically the clearest feedback you could possibly want, short of plastering "MAKE THIS" in Japanese over the video throughout its runtime as well.

So many people outside the fanbase look at it and go "ohh, that's what Sonic should be"! Going back to the navigation metaphor, Sonic Utopia/Green Hill Paradise 2/Project Hero's popularity should, should be like clearing the weather away so conditions are perfect and then handing Sonic Team a real time satellite navigation system accurate to within a centimetre.

Edit: found this video which was probably one of the first showcases of Sonic Utopia when it first was released in 2016. It has 4.7m views!

[Natie]

^Yeah I was thinking that. Since there's tons of detailed analysis now and proof of concept games that show exactly what it should be, rather than just the usual complaining of what it it is. This is pretty different than before and it shows by the fact that most fans are learning from all this available information where Sonic needs to go. Sega currently has the clearest opportunity ever. Hell, just watching Sonic Spitball would be enough to give them a clear idea. It really was pretty vague back in the day, reviews and the common repeated opinions of fans reflected that, we knew something was wrong but didn't have the clear answers. Add that to Sega's crunched business standards and it's no wonder they're floundering so much.

If they did try to make a movement based 3D Sonic, I would still expect some of their usual design blunders, but with an actual focused core that strong, it could still come out pretty fun to play regardless.

[DryLagoon]

On 3/4/2020 at 2:48 PM, McGroose said:

The amount of Classic Sonic material we're seeing nowadays is almost equal to the amount of Modern Sonic content we get.

I must say I find it a bit ironic how in the 90s America remade Classic Sonic's design to be cooler, and now their Classic based Twitter posts are often "look how cute this is!". (Which I don't mind as a social media thing, just a little bit funny to me)

[TheOcelot]

Prior to Mania being announced (back in 2016) I'd predicted we'd get a Sonic 1 remake. So, I was sort of on the right track, I mean we did get a re-imagined Green Hill zone  ...but when it comes to predicting what we'll get for the 30th anniversary, I haven't got a clue.

What I'd really like is a Sonic 3 Remaster, or Sonic Adventure 3, or Sonic Adventure remake, or a new 3D Sonic game made in the style of the classic games, or hell...I'd even be up for Sonic 4 Episode 3, but we know we're likely never getting any of these. So all I can envisage is yet another game with multiple gameplay styles likely consisting of; modern Sonic boost gameplay and classic Sonic where the physics are nothing like the Mega-Drive/Genesis games. I really want the boost gameplay to be dropped permanently but I just can't see SEGA having the courage to leave it behind, or even if they make a new game without it, I can easily see the boost formula returning in the next game.  

It could well be another anniversary game, especially as both Gens & Mania were well received. Not that there's been enough good new content over the last 10 years to justify a new anniversary title (probably only Mania/Mania Plus qualifies). There really is no need for another anniversary game. I'd settle for a new 3D Sonic game with a new gameplay style (I would prefer no 2d game gamelay what-so-ever), a larger budget similar to Sonic Unleashed and see what Sonic Team can come up with...and yet even this seems unrealistic.

I just want a 3D Sonic game which I can enjoy replaying-that I want to go back and replay. I don't expect it to be perfect, but considering the only 3D games I enjoy replaying are Sonic Adventure 1&2 and Colours (which hardly has any good 3D gameplay worth noting) I'm really starved of a good 3D Sonic game. 

[DryLagoon]

Bias aside, Sonic Adventure 2 was an anniversary title and a brand new game. (Even could unlock a 3D version of Green Hill back before it was overused)

It's just Sonic 06 was also a brand new title as an anniversary game, so that might be why they are wary of risking a new title on an anniversary year when they can rehash old levels and be praised instead.

[Jango]

IMO, the 30th anniversary title should be a FULL collection with every-fucking-game in the franchise for the PC, PS5 and Xbox Series X. From the Genesis games, to the handheld ones, the Dreamcast games, everything, even 06 and Shadow. The biggest problem will be getting the license to add them all. I'm not sure if Nintendo still holds any distribution rights to the Advance trilogy or Battle, other than that... sigh... Sonic 3... Always an issue. 

The ultimate Sonic collection, your go-to to experiment everything the franchise has to offer. They could even add lots of extras, concept art, animations, the OVA. Options to play both the Dreamcast version and GameCube version of SA and SA2.

Sure it's a pipe dream, but it would be a great way to celebrate the 30th anniversary.

[The Famous Sonic]

You didn't mention the Switch! It would be great if you can play every Sonic game on the go! 

[expansivelovestories]

On 3/6/2020 at 1:13 PM, The Man On The Inside said:

As mentioned, the video on YT titled "Momentum in Sonic Utopia" has 1.5m views. There are tons of comments saying how good it is and there seems to be a general sentiment of "I would play this despite not being a Sonic fan." This is basically the clearest feedback you could possibly want, short of plastering "MAKE THIS" in Japanese over the video throughout its runtime as well.

So many people outside the fanbase look at it and go "ohh, that's what Sonic should be"! Going back to the navigation metaphor, Sonic Utopia/Green Hill Paradise 2/Project Hero's popularity should, should be like clearing the weather away so conditions are perfect and then handing Sonic Team a real time satellite navigation system accurate to within a centimetre.

Yes; I am almost curious if this time around it will be the 3D game developed with help from the Lange/Fox team's engine and hopefully in person or digitally transmitted collaboration. 

Perhaps Sonic Team themselves will make the new 2D game using the Mania engine; that is, i think they would like a chance to make one themselves especially if it is the story followup to their original series.  I am sure they might ask for help from the Mania team, and that Tee would still be involved musically!  It is just like, something as miraculous as Sonic Mania in the first place other than Mania 2 would be Sonic Team making their own fully new pixel game using the engine.  I would sort of wonder about special involvement of any semi-retired members of Sonic Team too!

[DryLagoon]

56 minutes ago, Jango said:

IMO, the 30th anniversary title should be a FULL collection with every-fucking-game in the franchise

I don't think they'd ever do every game in one, but maybe they could do best of per era. So Classic, Adventure, and Modern. Not by that name but like how there was mega and gem collection.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

I think it's THQ and Infogrames that's the problem with Sonic advance, not Nintendo. Of course both no longer exist now, so who knows who has the USA/ Europe publishing rights to Sonic advance now.  Not to mention Sega's probably concerned about rereleasing a game with handheld graphics on big consoles where it'll look all pixelated. An HD redrawn version would be awesome, but yeah. That's work and effort, so meh.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

It’s too early for me to be hyped or cynical or anything else really. We’re separated from Sonic by an ocean, a language barrier, and a Japanese culture whose collective disinterest in the franchise makes early leaks unlikely to happen. 
 

Let’s just wait for Sonic Team to show us who they are and what they have in store. 

[GentlemanX]

The Advance games were re-released on the Wii U Virtual Console, so it's not like they've never done it before. And I've played at least SA3 on the Gamecube via the connector - they certainly look better than the Game Gear games do via Gems Collection and Adventure DX.