Sonic 30th predictions

[Plasme]

2 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Still clearly better than the 2000s, where each game was worse than the last pretty much until Unleashed. 

If I had to give each decade an average score, I'd rate the 2010s a 6/10 (brought mostly down by boom) and the 2000s a 4/10. And this just in terms of the mainline releases 

(Actually the saving grace of the 2000s were the handhelds, many of which were fairly good. But they weren't as visible to most of the public and so the effect of the bigger titles was larger.)

I know a lot of people will be annoyed by me saying this, but I really do think part of the problem is that there a lot of Sonic fans who unironically liked the 2000's games for their awful melodramatic stories, redundant cast of characters and edgy aesthetic and are upset that those aspects haven't featured since.

I mean, to take Lost World as an example, I actually really like the art style in that game. It featured badniks which were famous in the series in a new style and introduced some new ones. It went back to the geometric shapes which made Sonic 1 and 2 famous. But so many fans just go off on one when anything vaguely classic is brought back as 'nostalgia baiting'. I mean it doesn't help when Sonic Team do genuinely nostalgia bait with Green Hill and Chemical Plant, but I think Lost World had a good balance. It did chase after Mario too much, but I actually think that did some good in at least making the badnik iconography come back in its taking cues from Mario's handling of enemies. If Lost World came out and featured Gun Robots and the aesthetic of Adventure 2, I can guarantee that loads of people would go absolutely crazy for it. It's not that they don't want Sonic to look back, it's that they want Sonic to look back to the 2000s.

It's the same with the stories. Sure, Colors story has got some bad jokes and it hasn't aged well in places, but I cannot fathom why people want to go back to the awful plots of Sonic Heroes, Black Knight and Unleashed or even the Adventure games. I mean Unleashed has good presentation and the Adventure games do have redeeming qualities, but I wouldn't say they were a good direction either. I'm going to be honest, when you play Sonic 2, you don't envisage Adventure 2's plot. And that wouldn't be too bad on its own, but I just find the whole thing so silly and hard to take serious. These cute anthropomorphic animals running around always being deadly serious and spouting exposition at each other. The new direction isn't great but it's definitely better than that.

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

42 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I know a lot of people will be annoyed by me saying this, but I really do think part of the problem is that there a lot of Sonic fans who unironically liked the 2000's games for their awful melodramatic stories, redundant cast of characters and edgy aesthetic and are upset that those aspects haven't featured since.

I mean, to take Lost World as an example, I actually really like the art style in that game. It featured badniks which were famous in the series in a new style and introduced some new ones. It went back to the geometric shapes which made Sonic 1 and 2 famous. But so many fans just go off on one when anything vaguely classic is brought back as 'nostalgia baiting'. I mean it doesn't help when Sonic Team do genuinely nostalgia bait with Green Hill and Chemical Plant, but I think Lost World had a good balance. It did chase after Mario too much, but I actually think that did some good in at least making the badnik iconography come back in its taking cues from Mario's handling of enemies. If Lost World came out and featured Gun Robots and the aesthetic of Adventure 2, I can guarantee that loads of people would go absolutely crazy for it. It's not that they don't want Sonic to look back, it's that they want Sonic to look back to the 2000s.

It's the same with the stories. Sure, Colors story has got some bad jokes and it hasn't aged well in places, but I cannot fathom why people want to go back to the awful plots of Sonic Heroes, Black Knight and Unleashed or even the Adventure games. I mean Unleashed has good presentation and the Adventure games do have redeeming qualities, but I wouldn't say they were a good direction either. I'm going to be honest, when you play Sonic 2, you don't envisage Adventure 2's plot. And that wouldn't be too bad on its own, but I just find the whole thing so silly and hard to take serious. These cute anthropomorphic animals running around always being deadly serious and spouting exposition at each other. The new direction isn't great but it's definitely better than that.

 

Could not agree more.

The 'nostalgia pandering' critiques thrown around so often were always funny to me, because most of what fans of the 2000s era wants is precisely nostalgia pandering, just their variety as opposed to classic style. Again I don't blame them, because since the mid 2000s this series has mostly forgotten them, and for many of them the melodramatic stories, the buttrock, and characters beyond Sonic are the reason they became fans, it defined their early childhood in a similar way that the original series aesthetic defined it for classic fans. Almost everything they want, the series has been at odds with since then.

And I seriously doubt we will ever go back to that full time anyway, since the effects of that Era still have not fully dissipated. It would take a monumental 3D title to make ST have the courage to do that again. The closest I think we'll see to that is if an SA1 remake gets done (and even SA1 has a lot in common stylistically with the classic era, more so than the games after it). I'd be shocked if we saw anything like an SA3, straight out of a 2000s fan wishlist, which was a true sequel to SA2, but not a broken mess.... Because I'd say that game already happened with 06, but nobody wants a broken mess..... (and yet we still have people who love and defend that game, which I am diametrically opposed to as the worst thing to ever happen to Sonic, by far). An SA3 in that style, if it ever happens, isn't happening anytime soon. But I could see a game more like SA1 happening in the near future.

 

Edit: despite my opinions and projections, I'd be curious to know the data that Sega actually has and how they are interpreting demand for games like the 2000s era games again. Like, that fanbase is loud on social media, but does SEGA think these are the fans they need to cater, for Sonic's future? I ask because, at one point this applied to classic fans and in this series they're always trying to capture and cultivate the next generation, and keep up with current trends. Since at one point we were loud enough to get a Sonic 4 made and then eventually a Mania, at some point that may happen for 2000s fans. But social media has increased noise dramatically in that time. 

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Problem with Lost world is that it didn't do anything to create a real identity to the Lost world.
I mean, it's the titular central setting, and could have been a great location.

But Lost World never shows interest in making it's levels be anything more then random aesthetics in limbo with no thought or weight to them.
Hence why a lot of people, including me, dismiss them as either nostalgia pandering, Mario Rip offs or utterly random.
I would have had mor tolerance for these elements if there was any attempt to make the Lost world feel more like a genuine setting rather then just the generic Mario world themes with the occasional Casino or donut level inbetween.

There's nothing wrong with these themes in and on themselves, in fact Lost world technically had a built-in reason for why the setting could be random- it's the Land of illusion according to the Japanese manual. Perfect oppurtunity to use that as a plot point, but alas. Nothing is made of it. They're just random shapes in the sky. Just "level" because it's "Videogame". An insult to a series with such rich envirements.
Give me South Island, or Station Square, or Space Colony Arc, or Color's intergalactic amusement park any day of the week over "Shapes and colors in limbo" land.

That, to me, is the real underlying reason why I'm dismissive and irritated by nostalgia pandering. If it's used legitmatly like a real location, just like the Classic games actually did, then fine. But there's this aggresive lack of context or thought to it. Aesthetics just for the sake of aesthetics that makes everything feel so soulless. ESPECIALLY when the setting seems to be a vital element to the game, like The Lost World. It's right there in the title, it's what the game is about. The lost continent.
I don't mind revisiting Green Hill if we're legitamatly back in South island. Or it's a new Green Hill esque beach strip on a diffrent island. But that isn't how it's often used, it's just a soulless aestehtic floating in limbo that you revisit because it was in that other game too.

But Mario does it, so Sonic should do it too. Sonic games seem to steal all the bad ideas from Mario games and none of the good ones.

[Plasme]

1 hour ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Problem with Lost world is that it didn't do anything to create a real identity to the Lost world.
I mean, it's the titular central setting, and could have been a great location.

But Lost World never shows interest in making it's levels be anything more then random aesthetics in limbo with no thought or weight to them.
Hence why a lot of people, including me, dismiss them as either nostalgia pandering, Mario Rip offs or utterly random.
I would have had mor tolerance for these elements if there was any attempt to make the Lost world feel more like a genuine setting rather then just the generic Mario world themes with the occasional Casino or donut level inbetween.

There's nothing wrong with these themes in and on themselves, in fact Lost world technically had a built-in reason for why the setting could be random- it's the Land of illusion according to the Japanese manual. Perfect oppurtunity to use that as a plot point, but alas. Nothing is made of it. They're just random shapes in the sky. Just "level" because it's "Videogame". An insult to a series with such rich envirements.
Give me South Island, or Station Square, or Space Colony Arc, or Color's intergalactic amusement park any day of the week over "Shapes and colors in limbo" land.

That, to me, is the real underlying reason why I'm dismissive and irritated by nostalgia pandering. If it's used legitmatly like a real location, just like the Classic games actually did, then fine. But there's this aggresive lack of context or thought to it. Aesthetics just for the sake of aesthetics that makes everything feel so soulless. ESPECIALLY when the setting seems to be a vital element to the game, like The Lost World. It's right there in the title, it's what the game is about. The lost continent.
I don't mind revisiting Green Hill if we're legitamatly back in South island. Or it's a new Green Hill esque beach strip on a diffrent island. But that isn't how it's often used, it's just a soulless aestehtic floating in limbo that you revisit because it was in that other game too.

But Mario does it, so Sonic should do it too. Sonic games seem to steal all the bad ideas from Mario games and none of the good ones.

I agree in terms of the Lost Hex isn't particularly different or unique, but then you could say the same thing about Little Planet and I don't see people complaining about that. Both are just mysterious worlds that pop up to give Sonic a new adventure, not much more than that. Except the Deadly Six are supposed to live on the Lost Hex, so if anything it has more identity than Little Planet. Well, the Deadly Six kind of pop up everywhere now, so they threw that out.

And also, when did most of the Classic Sonic games have context? There's no reason for why you go to Labyrinth Zone from Spring Yard, or from Star Light to Scrap Brain. A lot of the levels in Sonic 2 don't make much sense. What exactly is Metropolis Zone and what is its purpose when Eggman has Wing Fortress and Death Egg? Sonic 3 was the only game to care about context, and then it sometimes discarded it if need be (Carnival Night to Ice Cap). Even Sonic Mania does this. I don't really see how going from a desert to a 'dessert' land is much different from the way the Classics games handled it honestly. I mean it's more unusual by putting it as an act, but I just saw that as a fun joke. I mean sure, you can criticise it, but it's not something which Lost World is particularly egregious in. 

Lost World's levels may be random environments in the sky, but Sonic 2's levels are random environments on south island.

I liked the way Lost World brought classics badniks back, and we hadn't seen some of them in ages, like the Madmole, Cluckoid and Penguinators. It's way more interesting to me than what Sonic had used in the 2000s and in recent games like Forces (where they brought back only the staples and 'militarised' them. It was like Sonic was bringing back his old classic enemies back, and most crucially, they introduced a bunch of new ones that fit into the old style. Not much different than what Sonic 2 had done.

[Sonic Fan J]

Level transitions are one thing, but one of my big problems with Lost World's levels is weight. The weird tubular blobs in the sky had no sense of weight or place to them. Then, for the most part neither Eggman nor the D6 felt like they had any impact on said environment. For as little context as the pre adventure games had if you didn't read the instruction manuals, at least the levels had weight and you could feel the presence of the characters in them. The only levels in Lost world that had any sense of weight to them for me were the Zelda levels, which probably isn't a surprise since those levels were as heavily infused with the Zelda atmosphere as could be done for a Sonic game. But as a result they were vastly superior levels in my opinion and it sucks to me that I'll never have access to them on Steam.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

My biggest issue with Lost World by far is the controls. I finally picked it up a year or so ago on PC, and those controls make absolutely no intuitive sense whatsoever. Sonic games should always be simple to pick up and play and it was very unfun to try mastering that game. The core ideas though obviously had a lot of potential. If the game had been marketed better and multiplatform, I think we might be in an unleashed to generations situation where they just fixed the games problems instead of throwing it out. 

I remember at the time, Sonic Team thought so too. Both webber and Iizuka were pretty confident in the game before it came out, stressing that they understood the need for momentum based gameplay from the classics in several interviews. And even after the game came out and didn't do well, Webber still said he believed the game had a lot of potential. And watching the Zelda DLC, I really thought so too, at least from a pure platforming perspective. I think it's the reason Iizuka wanted to go away from the Boost games in the first place, because he believed they'd found something better and more sustainable. He said That partially, anyway, shortly after Generations in some interview about moving on from that formula. Although since then.... Utopia looks a lot more sexy to me. And I'm willing to bet ST knows about utopia and thinks so too. It's the wave of the future for Sonic IMO, a Utopia type structure, like a Sonic breath of the Wild. It'd be nuts. 

 

Even though that formula as a whole isn't likely to come back, I think the parkour definitely will, and the need for 3D platforming will be met in the future even if it's not the next title. 

[DryLagoon]

I can tell this is going to be a point where we won't agree.

Seriously? Colored blocks is all it takes to please you? That's like me saying Sonic would be better and accurately representing all of Adventure if he still had SOAP shoes.

I've said before that I want them to take inspiration from the ideas Adventure brought and combine it with other things, not just reuse it. It wouldn't be better if the Egg Carrier came back or the Ark came back, because those locations were part of their own games and are done with.

I'm tired of people conflating a story that has any depth to it as being "edgy". Shooting Maria was edgy. Sonic caring about his friends and their safety wasn't or Tails learning to believe in himself. I get mad because these stories toss all of those things away and for what? To please people that never cared to begin with? If story matters so little, then why not just skip it?

I think I need to take a break.

[Wraith]

50 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

 

I'm tired of people conflating a story that has any depth to it as being "edgy". Shooting Maria was edgy. Sonic caring about his friends and their safety wasn't or Tails learning to believe in himself. I get mad because these stories toss all of those things away and for what? To please people that never cared to begin with? If story matters so little, then why not just skip it?
 

In general grouping an entire decade's worth of games with their own aesthetic and storytelling nuances into a bundle and calling them edgy is pretty dismissive. I don't take the "edgy" or "melodrama" complaints seriously anymore because of this. Sonic Adventure, Sonic Heroes, the Advance games and Rush are not tonally out of lockstep with Colors or Generations. The difference comes down to having a structured narrative versus the lack of one. But there's no nuance in these types of discussions because for the longest time 3D Sonic wasn't even considered worth analyzing due to the decisions it made on the surface level and that attitude still persists in a lot of the fanbase.

Once it clicked to me that Lost World is probably the Sonic game most guilty of the characters needlessly moping, arguing and even spouting edgy bullshit but it was constantly given a pass because it featured checkerboards and didn't have Shadow in it I realized there was no genuine critique going on with most of the older guard in the fanbase. Just a concentrated push to get Sonic back to how they remembered it in the 90s with basically no regard for anything afterward and no interest in future-proofing it with modern ideas and design decisions. 

Listen to the people that are actually enthusiastic about these games instead of turning your nose up at their metacritic scores and maybe you'll find out why Sonic's sales are still dropping despite appealing to the elusive "general public". Maybe you'll find out why Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations all but disappeared entirely from mainstream conversation before the decade was even over despite appealing to the elusive "general public". 
 

[DabigRG]

13 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

 

I do find it funny that this video instead of debunking SA1R rumors, it reinforces them despite trying the opposite.

 

But the video does actually reinforce the idea that there's an "Adventure-something" coming, otherwise what the hell is coming? We have no clue, literally those are the only clues we have, and of course as it's said in the video, they did this with Mania, plus the sub-brand image promotion, which hasn't happened here yet.

 

Having not watched the video among other things just yet, how?

12 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

I've said it several times, but I really do wonder if they will keep both the Mania line and the main Modern titles going forward. The English social media tends to focus most on Classic Sonic since Mania came out, while the Japanese social media focuses more on Modern Sonic as Sega's mascot. It might be another case of SoA vs SoJ.

I'd imagine that has to do with Christian Whitehead and Tyson Hesse being American based compared to Forces and the franchise itself originating in Japan.

[DabigRG]

7 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Problem with Lost world is that it didn't do anything to create a real identity to the Lost world.
I mean, it's the titular central setting, and could have been a great location.

But Lost World never shows interest in making it's levels be anything more then random aesthetics in limbo with no thought or weight to them.
Hence why a lot of people, including me, dismiss them as either nostalgia pandering, Mario Rip offs or utterly random.
I would have had mor tolerance for these elements if there was any attempt to make the Lost world feel more like a genuine setting rather then just the generic Mario world themes with the occasional Casino or donut level inbetween.

There's nothing wrong with these themes in and on themselves, in fact Lost world technically had a built-in reason for why the setting could be random- it's the Land of illusion according to the Japanese manual. Perfect oppurtunity to use that as a plot point, but alas. Nothing is made of it. They're just random shapes in the sky. Just "level" because it's "Videogame". An insult to a series with such rich envirements.
Give me South Island, or Station Square, or Space Colony Arc, or Color's intergalactic amusement park any day of the week over "Shapes and colors in limbo" land.

That, to me, is the real underlying reason why I'm dismissive and irritated by nostalgia pandering. If it's used legitmatly like a real location, just like the Classic games actually did, then fine. But there's this aggresive lack of context or thought to it. Aesthetics just for the sake of aesthetics that makes everything feel so soulless. ESPECIALLY when the setting seems to be a vital element to the game, like The Lost World. It's right there in the title, it's what the game is about. The lost continent.
I don't mind revisiting Green Hill if we're legitamatly back in South island. Or it's a new Green Hill esque beach strip on a diffrent island. But that isn't how it's often used, it's just a soulless aestehtic floating in limbo that you revisit because it was in that other game too.

But Mario does it, so Sonic should do it too. Sonic games seem to steal all the bad ideas from Mario games and none of the good ones.

Yeah, that's a serious letdown that's in the background. I mean, not all of it is bad--Silent Forest certainly has a different feel for Sonic--but they really ran with the Lost World thing both in story and in level aesthetics more. 

If the Lost Hex is ever revisited, I hope they quietly ignore half of that in favor of establishing some new, more unique things.

6 hours ago, Plasme said:

I agree in terms of the Lost Hex isn't particularly different or unique, but then you could say the same thing about Little Planet and I don't see people complaining about that. Both are just mysterious worlds that pop up to give Sonic a new adventure, not much more than that.

Sonic CD had more unique locations, color schemes, and memorabilia though. By Genesis era standards, which is more forgivable because of both imagination and limitation.

Quote

Except the Deadly Six are supposed to live on the Lost Hex, so if anything it has more identity than Little Planet.Well, the Deadly Six kind of pop up everywhere now, so they threw that out.

I mean, that's supposed be because they're implicitly coming and going between the two worlds to do battle.

That is another issue with the story though: the Lost Hex is presumably where the Zeti have lived for centuries if not millennia. And yet, there's not really much indication of what makes it their home aside from Master Zik explicitly calling Tropical Coast his garden and the comics calling Eggman's Base Zeti Castle.

Quote

And also, when did most of the Classic Sonic games have context? There's no reason for why you go to Labyrinth Zone from Spring Yard, or from Star Light to Scrap Brain. A lot of the levels in Sonic 2 don't make much sense. What exactly is Metropolis Zone and what is its purpose when Eggman has Wing Fortress and Death Egg? Sonic 3 was the only game to care about context, and then it sometimes discarded it if need be (Carnival Night to Ice Cap). Even Sonic Mania does this. I don't really see how going from a desert to a 'dessert' land is much different from the way the Classics games handled it honestly. I mean it's more unusual by putting it as an act, but I just saw that as a fun joke. I mean sure, you can criticise it, but it's not something which Lost World is particularly egregious in. 

Again, Genesis. They hadn't fully implemented cutscenes into the game just yet. Even then, it's not really that hard to think about what's what.

Spring Yard and Star Light I'm admittedly a little confused by, but Marble and Labyrinth are obviously areas that are just a part of South Island.

And Scrap Brain and Metropolis were obviously built by Eggman as bases why he works on his true plans.

Quote

Lost World's levels may be random environments in the sky, but Sonic 2's levels are random environments on south island.

Westside. South was the first game.

Quote

I liked the way Lost World brought classics badniks back, and we hadn't seen some of them in ages, like the Madmole, Cluckoid and Penguinators. It's way more interesting to me than what Sonic had used in the 2000s and in recent games like Forces (where they brought back only the staples and 'militarised' them. It was like Sonic was bringing back his old classic enemies back, and most crucially, they introduced a bunch of new ones that fit into the old style. Not much different than what Sonic 2 had done.

Yeah, the Badniks were pretty well-implemented and a welcome return.

It's just that they either weren't enough to really improve the game or get lumped in with the nostalgia accusations by some.

[Jango]

14 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

 

I do find it funny that this video instead of debunking SA1R rumors, it reinforces them despite trying the opposite.

There is nothing confirmed though, you are right, @Badnik Mechanic, there is literally nothing implying a SA1 remake if not for Iizuka saying in an interview he would like to remake it, which led to fans believing it was coming, but I don't think he would spoil like that the next game announcement, plus of course the trend of remaking games, which is a bit more reasonable, but there is no actual proof.

But the video does actually reinforce the idea that there's an "Adventure-something" coming, otherwise what the hell is coming? We have no clue, literally those are the only clues we have, and of course as it's said in the video, they did this with Mania, plus the sub-brand image promotion, which hasn't happened here yet.

I do find it really suspicious about the "leaked" recording, so let's say that is false, still the hints they've scattered around social media are the exact same thing they've done before Mania. 

So what the video here does is listing all the stuff they posted, and then, it doesn't actually go to opinion zone, but into sophist critical philosophy, so it kinda mocks people for thinking a SA1 remake is coming and since they claim it as basically confirmed, it's not so I don't really blame you for teasing them.

But if those social media things aren't hints I don't know what they are, if they are meant to be red herrings, if they have actual purpose, because it's a lot of money they spent into it, between the not mentioned Irish the Hedgehog story recap, Chao in Space, the fact that SEGA put Big and the Chao group in TSR, there were a few more Chao memes in the twitter, including Cheese and Chocola.

Plus: The video only adds heat to fuel the discussion lol, that's why it does the opposite result of debunking it, everyone is talking about it, there is buzz as the folks of Tails Channel said, it's viral for some reason, but it certainly does not confirm anything, just that people want it so badly.

Only Iizuka outright said "I would like to remake SA1", SEGA didn't announce anything or even hint at it, they hinted at something Adventure though, just like Classic themed social media stuff with Mania, even more expensive posts here. 

I also think there is a new classic title coming, because I have noticed those season posts with the clock, plus numerous Classic Metal Sonic posts, which make me guess he's gonna be an important antagonist in that game.

But they are all rumors and speculation for now. Yes. Just not baseless.

This video will age well.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Jango

[Roger_van_der_weide]

13 hours ago, Plasme said:

I agree in terms of the Lost Hex isn't particularly different or unique, but then you could say the same thing about Little Planet and I don't see people complaining about that. Both are just mysterious worlds that pop up to give Sonic a new adventure, not much more than that. Except the Deadly Six are supposed to live on the Lost Hex, so if anything it has more identity than Little Planet. Well, the Deadly Six kind of pop up everywhere now, so they threw that out.

And also, when did most of the Classic Sonic games have context? There's no reason for why you go to Labyrinth Zone from Spring Yard, or from Star Light to Scrap Brain. A lot of the levels in Sonic 2 don't make much sense. What exactly is Metropolis Zone and what is its purpose when Eggman has Wing Fortress and Death Egg? Sonic 3 was the only game to care about context, and then it sometimes discarded it if need be (Carnival Night to Ice Cap). Even Sonic Mania does this. I don't really see how going from a desert to a 'dessert' land is much different from the way the Classics games handled it honestly. I mean it's more unusual by putting it as an act, but I just saw that as a fun joke. I mean sure, you can criticise it, but it's not something which Lost World is particularly egregious in.

Fair enough, this is a tough and murky subject. I am inconsistent on it myself, it isn't a black and white situation. Altough I think you misunderstood me on some details.

It's not really about Plot reasons. I don't need a plot reason why Sonic goes trough Labyrinth zone. I know South Island is a location filled with ruins, and Sonic happens to traverse trough one. Sure, makes sense. Robotnik blocked off easier roads to Scrap Brain zone offscreen or something, sure, whatever. The location looks natural in the envirement, so it works well enough.

The story can help, but it isn't relevant. And when I say "Story', I mean that in the loosest of sense. So not necesairely "10 minute cutscene of Tails reading a monologue about the lore of the world". It can be something as simple as a level transition, world map giving context, background details. Sonic CD is rich in detailed backgounds (Especially with the time travel component) and has a worldmap. That gives it weight, like SonicFan J says.
And yes, Sonic Lost world also has a world map, but it doesn't seem very interested in giving shape to the levels I'm seeing in-game. They're not represented at all. So it never feels like a proper world map. It's a gameplay element, not anything designed to create meaning to the Hex.

But I am inconsistent, now I think about it. I'm nicer toward Sonic Advance 2, that also has weird locations like Music plant. Tough it helps Sonic advance 2 isn't so tied to a specific location. And Music plant is just one zone in an otherwise more down to earth set of locations. So fine, there happens to be a weird music theme'd island smackdab in the middle of nowhere. Probably one of Robotnik's wacky scemes again. Not a big fan of it, but the game does have more grounded locations whenever it matters. And I welcome some visual variety, if you don't over do it.

Like I said, all Lost world had to do was confirm The Hex is a world of illusions and the Zeti can screw around turning the landscape in any kind of weird visual for their amusement, and it can get away with anything. Context helps. And would help with the level design too. Imagine if the Zeti are actively using the illusions to screw with Sonic's head during the levels, especially the boss levels? Playing up his fears and desires? Could put a fun twist and a dramatic spin on the zany levels.

Also not helping Lost World is that I'm really dissapointed the levels didn't have more wide open platform heavy area's for Sonic to really showcase his parkours abilities in.
If I enjoyed the gameplay more and the levels felt more immersive, I think I would have been more tolerant toward them too.
But that's an entirely diffrent matter.

But what I missed the most with Lost World is something that ties it all together. Something that gives the Hex it's own identity. But The Zeti have no house, or palace, or city. Eggman didn't even have a base, other then lightbulbs in black room.
Well okay, to be fair, the semi-final level has a fortress. Too bad it looks so aggresively Mario-esque with little to no hints of Eggman or Zeti personality to it that it's too little, too late.
There's nothing that gives Hex it's own shape. No central location. Nothing that's HEX. It only has the level design, the weird tubes flying in the sky.

In the end, it leaves me with nothing but the bare naked level tropes. Mario Lava land. Sonic Green Hill Zone land.
And that's when I get dismissive toward them.
Green Hill Zone for the sake of Green Hill Zone, rather then it being a legit landscape.
To Sonic Lost World's credit, it does have a unique art style that's instantly recognisable. But it leaves nothing to the imagination.


But yeah, this is all murky and I'm not even sure if I truly understand it, but something just feels off. Especially in the larger context of all the other Nostalgia heavy games around Lost world. It's not fair toward the game, but it having Generations, Mania and Lego Dimensions hovering around it doesn't help at all.
It puts more pressure on Lost World to have a really strong identity, being the only Original Sonic game in a long time. I have been a lot more tolerant with Green Hill Zone esque locations in other Sonic games, Sonic advance 2 once again gets a pass.
Seaside hill did, up until the spinoff games kept repeating it too often for my liking.

Lost world has the really bad luck to be released inbetween all the nostalgia games that overplayed that trope, so like I said before, there was more pressure on that game to be unique then most other Sonic games have.

It's a shame, I wish I could love Sonic Lost World, I love a lot of its ideas. And some of the reasons why I'm dismissive toward that game are not fair and are more about circumstances. But it all adds up. Fair or not.

[Kuzu]

Reading this whole topic and this is kind of all that I see.

 

Y'all so quick to throw each other under the bus without even compromising on the things that you liked. Classic fans are so quick to turn their noses up at literally every game in the 2000's and just label it off as "edgy trash" (Even though that literally only counts for what, three games in an entire decade?) while Adventure fans talk about trash and soulless the modern games have been. (Even though people have publicly admitted to liking these games)

There is some level of nuance to be had that I don't think people really consider because they're tired of feeling  attacked for their preferred version of Sonic. Yes, you can like more than one specific version of this franchise, crazy I know :V What are y'all gonna do if there is a new game with a new direction and it's still mediocre and features nothing from Classic, Adventure, or Modern? Gonna turn on them too?

 

 

For my part, I probably have a bigger bias towards the Adventure titles, but Sonic 3 is also my favorite game in the series (Seriously, I played that shit to death) and Sonic Generations is easily one of my favorite 3D Sonic games. I thought Colors had a pretty unique atmosphere and scaling down the stakes was good. I loved Shadow's story arc, 06 has some real good presentation value. Forces gave us Infinite, an antagonist with some actual pathos that DOESN'T become an antihero in the end. Mania is the Saturn game that we never had. etc etc. I could go on about all of the things about the series that I love.

 

I think these types of discussions would go a lot better if instead of trying to talk down to each other like "MY thing is better than YOUR thing" and just talked about WHY we love the things about this series that we do, these conversations wouldn't be so...combative. Lord knows I've been able to find more I love about the Classic and Modern games, and reflect that the Dreamcast games weren't as flawless as I thought they were. There's room in this series for all of us to co-exist, but we should find some level of common ground. Hell, we should be banding together to get some actual quality control in this franchise; doesn't matter what the series does (classic, adventure or modern) if the games never get beyond just "Alright" 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Reading this whole topic and this is kind of all that I see.

 

Y'all so quick to throw each other under the bus without even compromising on the things that you liked. Classic fans are so quick to turn their noses up at literally every game in the 2000's and just label it off as "edgy trash" (Even though that literally only counts for what, three games in an entire decade?) while Adventure fans talk about trash and soulless the modern games have been. (Even though people have publicly admitted to liking these games)

There is some level of nuance to be had that I don't think people really consider because they're tired of feeling  attacked for their preferred version of Sonic. Yes, you can like more than one specific version of this franchise, crazy I know :V What are y'all gonna do if there is a new game with a new direction and it's still mediocre and features nothing from Classic, Adventure, or Modern? Gonna turn on them too?

 

 

For my part, I probably have a bigger bias towards the Adventure titles, but Sonic 3 is also my favorite game in the series (Seriously, I played that shit to death) and Sonic Generations is easily one of my favorite 3D Sonic games. I thought Colors had a pretty unique atmosphere and scaling down the stakes was good. I loved Shadow's story arc, 06 has some real good presentation value. Forces gave us Infinite, an antagonist with some actual pathos that DOESN'T become an antihero in the end. Mania is the Saturn game that we never had. etc etc. I could go on about all of the things about the series that I love.

 

I think these types of discussions would go a lot better if instead of trying to talk down to each other like "MY thing is better than YOUR thing" and just talked about WHY we love the things about this series that we do, these conversations wouldn't be so...combative. Lord knows I've been able to find more I love about the Classic and Modern games, and reflect that the Dreamcast games weren't as flawless as I thought they were. There's room in this series for all of us to co-exist, but we should find some level of common ground. Hell, we should be banding together to get some actual quality control in this franchise; doesn't matter what the series does (classic, adventure or modern) if the games never get beyond just "Alright" 

Kuzu, this isn't a new revelation though. Your attempt to harmonize is admirable but you have to realize we've been at this for so long because there are actual fundamental differences in our basis for how we perceive the series. And in this franchise, the most infamous divide came around the time of the dreamcast's death. This is covered well in the geek critique's review on the adventure games, specifically SA2. If you were exposed to the series prior to release of SA2 and were a SEGA console kid, there's a very high chance you see the foundation of the series completely differently than someone who started with SA2B as a Nintendo kid. It can't be understated and this is what plasme posted about. It's really not something that can be reconciled. Almost everything that the former sees as Sonic's identity, the latter doesn't and vice versa. There is no bridge. You can say you like aspects of other games all you want but at your core.... If you're a SEGA/classic Era fan, how Sonic is defined for you is always in direct conflict with gamecube/adventure Era fan. Watch his video if you haven't for more clarification. 

Believe me, I've tried to get people to realize over and over, through the years, that there are actually core aspects of what both parties want (in this example) that are the exact same thing. For instance, one of the key things SEGA/classic era fans (not that we're an exact monolith) have always wanted from the series, is a true translation of the feeling of Sonic's momentum mechanics into 3D. I'd argue that this is by far the most important thing to us about the games, everything else is secondary. It defined the games, one of the primary characteristics that differentiated Sonic from all other platformers. In my many conversations with Adventure fans over the years, they want the same thing. Even if they are okay with boost, they greatly prefer the adventures more direct sense of momentum from slopes, attempts at more open and varied level design. We should have had public conversations about this a long time ago, and settled that, okay, this is clearly a crucial thing to this series we agree upon and if we focus, we can all get SEGA to pay attention, our voice will be even louder. As long as the focus remains here, we could potentially actually help our devs focus much better!

But, we commonly, vehemently disagree about so much else, many things that are deal breakers for some fans, like having tons of extra characters in games and melodramatic stories, which I could not care less about... To me it's just zero significance to talk about Cream or Rouge or someone else when the gameplay is still broken, it sounds ridiculous. Even when the gameplay is fixed, I don't particularly prefer plots like SA2, or any games after it which spend more time exploring the other characters outside of Sonic than he himself, to me its irritating and distracting from the fun bits. But other fans think it is essential and I can't blame them for it, it's their foundation. 

And it's not like this means people can't like things across eras. We all do. But there's a difference between that and our personal definitions for Sonic because we will always run back to that in arguments, or in asking what we want from the franchise. I maintain that a good developer would not listen to us because it does not really help him to list individual complaints and try to meet them all because solving one set will just create another set of problems for another fan. 

 

So there are two main solutions to this problem for developers: one, create and maintain a divide by sectioning off the brand and catering to each subsection differently (what has been happening recently). This is probably the easiest thing to do but it's also the most limiting. Two, create a new concept that combines aspects of both into one, realizing you won't catch all fans but you may catch enough and create something impactful enough to inspire new fans and move forward. This is harder to do but I think it is the path with the most potential. 

[Kuzu]

29 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Kuzu, this isn't a new revelation though. Your attempt to harmonize is admirable but you have to realize we've been at this for so long because there are actual fundamental differences in our basis for how we perceive the series. And in this franchise, the most infamous divide came around the time of the dreamcast's death. This is covered well in the geek critique's review on the adventure games, specifically SA2. If you were exposed to the series prior to release of SA2 and were a SEGA console kid, there's a very high chance you see the foundation of the series completely differently than someone who started with SA2B as a Nintendo kid. It can't be understated and this is what plasme posted about. It's really not something that can be reconciled. Almost everything that the former sees as Sonic's identity, the latter doesn't and vice versa. There is no bridge. You can say you like aspects of other games all you want but at your core.... If you're a SEGA/classic Era fan, how Sonic is defined for you is always in direct conflict with gamecube/adventure Era fan. Watch his video if you haven't for more clarification. 

Believe me, I've tried to get people to realize over and over, through the years, that there are actually core aspects of what both parties want (in this example) that are the exact same thing. For instance, one of the key things SEGA/classic era fans (not that we're an exact monolith) have always wanted from the series, is a true translation of the feeling of Sonic's momentum mechanics into 3D. I'd argue that this is by far the most important thing to us about the games, everything else is secondary. It defined the games, one of the primary characteristics that differentiated Sonic from all other platformers. In my many conversations with Adventure fans over the years, they want the same thing. Even if they are okay with boost, they greatly prefer the adventures more direct sense of momentum from slopes, attempts at more open and varied level design. We should have had public conversations about this a long time ago, and settled that, okay, this is clearly a crucial thing to this series we agree upon and if we focus, we can all get SEGA to pay attention, our voice will be even louder. As long as the focus remains here, we could potentially actually help our devs focus much better!

But, we commonly, vehemently disagree about so much else, many things that are deal breakers for some fans, like having tons of extra characters in games and melodramatic stories, which I could not care less about... To me it's just zero significance to talk about Cream or Rouge or someone else when the gameplay is still broken, it sounds ridiculous. Even when the gameplay is fixed, I don't particularly prefer plots like SA2, or any games after it which spend more time exploring the other characters outside of Sonic than he himself, to me its irritating and distracting from the fun bits. But other fans think it is essential and I can't blame them for it, it's their foundation. 

And it's not like this means people can't like things across eras. We all do. But there's a difference between that and our personal definitions for Sonic because we will always run back to that in arguments, or in asking what we want from the franchise. I maintain that a good developer would not listen to us because it does not really help him to list individual complaints and try to meet them all because solving one set will just create another set of problems for another fan. 

 

So there are two main solutions to this problem for developers: one, create and maintain a divide by sectioning off the brand and catering to each subsection differently (what has been happening recently). This is probably the easiest thing to do but it's also the most limiting. Two, create a new concept that combines aspects of both into one, realizing you won't catch all fans but you may catch enough and create something impactful enough to inspire new fans and move forward. This is harder to do but I think it is the path with the most potential. 

Bullshit. I grew up on Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, and played the shit out of Sonic 3 & Knuckles when I got Sonic Mega Collection; I didn't need to grow up from 1991 to understand that the game was good, or that it was fundamental to who Sonic was. And I have watched that video, and in later videos, Geek goes on to say that just because he has a preference for the classic titles and aesthetics doesn't mean that sheer love for the Dreamcast titles wasn't valid.

This idea that we're all just unpleasable and can never be satisfied is just a huge self-fulfilling prophecy that feeds into why this fanbase is the way it is; we all believe we're fundamentally different can never get along, and so we act upon on it and make it so. I can't tell you how sick I was of being forced "pick a side" in this fandom when there was something that I have loved from every era. Can't be a classic fan without being called a "nostalgia purist who is afraid of change", can't be an adventure fan without being called "a fan who grew up in the wrong era of games" so I just thought "Screw both of them" and kept to myself. 

Yes, what we define as integral in this series will always be fundamentally different and our priorities will always lie elsewhere, but rather than using that as fuel to divide us and go to "war" with each other, we should just respect our differences while trying to understand why we feel the way we do. Now yea, this is easier said than done and requires years of experience and maturity to actually practice and I already know most of this fanbase skewers extremely young; younger fans simply do not have the ability to do this and will always be way more passionate and extreme when they feel what they love is being unfairly treated, especially towards whom they consider "Boomers". But that just means that us, being the actual adults (I hope) to understand this, respect how they feel, and not look down on them about it simply because they feel differently. Doing that will simply breed yet another generation of toxic fans who will do the same thing the previous two generations did. 

If you don't care about the games having a plot, or any extra characters, fine that is perfectly valid, but you can do one of two things in that case; 1) Get some insight on why people care about this particular aspect that you feel is unimportant or 2)If still don't care after that, just politely bow out of the conversation if it's a subject you don't care about. What you shouldn't do is tell people who do care about plot and characters that their preferences aren't important for the series, because all that is going to do is piss people off and turn them against you. 

 

There's literally no reason some of us should be at each other's throats when there are things that we can all agree on, or just agree to disagree on. But I'll tell you one thing, I'm tired of feeling what I like about the series is wrong, or that I'm not allowed other things outside of the stuff that I grew up with. It's  tiresome and a large reason why I have distanced myself from the fanbase, because it's just misery. The Shadow topic I made was literally one of the most enjoyable things I have done in a while because it's the first time in a long time where I just gushed about something I loved about this franchise which I haven't felt for years. 

[Sonic Fan J]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

What are y'all gonna do if there is a new game with a new direction and it's still mediocre and features nothing from Classic, Adventure, or Modern? Gonna turn on them too?

You forgot what happened to BOOM! when it was revealed.

But seriously, a lot of what you say is on point. I just think it's easier for us to complain as when the change doesn't fit what you think fits it sits wrong with us. I mean, I'm pretty vocal myself about not liking Sonic as a stand up comic and the stories and world having no weight (Forces is weird in that it tried and dropped the ball, yet that flower on a clear game title screen is one of my favorite things in any Sonic game, but only because of the 25 years that led up to it), but I'd like to help you see a different angle that Classic Fans are potentially looking from, and that is invalidation. @UpCDownCLeftCRightC actually kind of touches on it here.

Now I'm one of the lucky ones though who turned my back on western Sonic due to actually playing CD back in '93, but for a lot of westerners, especially Americans like myself, western interpretations defined who Sonic was. Sometimes conflating Sonic with Mario's aesthetic when looking back defines the series pre-Adventure. The thing is though, the Japanese side of things didn't even exist to them regardless pre-Adventure. Then here comes Sonic Adventure which is completely controlled by the Japanese side and it is so wrong from the get go. Sonic and the others are completely redesigned, Robotnik is now Eggman, you have humans everywhere, absolutely nothing from western media is represented at all. Now there are actually sound reasons to all of this, but to a bunch of kids growing up on Western Sonic and suddenly having Japanese Sonic shoved down there throats with no context or compromise is pretty jarring. But it gets worse when you look at Western Sonic trying to compromise and mix in Japanese Sonic only for Japanese Sonic to completely disregard Western Sonic. It's a case of being invalidated. Being told that everything you know and care about is wrong. That your childhood doesn't matter. That is what the Adventure era represents to pure Western Sonic fans from the nineties. If you can experience that and not feel disdain you are a rare soul in this world of ours.

But you know, from the Adventure fan side you'll notice that the divide is even more unusual. One of the things I've noticed is that Adventure fans are far more likely to embrace the Japanese storytelling and Lore compared to Western Sonic fans who actually enjoy the more projectable friendly post Unleashed games compared to the Adventure fans who can't stand them. Of course some of the defining differences is that a lot of the post Unleashed Games are made with tremendous amounts of western input and influence. As an aside, Forces is one of the few games (if not the only) that has tried to merge the projectable friendly western approach with the highly involved Japanese storytelling approach. But maybe by this point in the argument you might notice that I'm starting to point out a different faction war then Classic/Adventure/Modern. If you haven't let me clarify.

Western/Japanese.

This right here is the divide that hurts this franchise more than anything and cannot be reconciled if you were introduced to Sonic pre-Adventure and remained unaware of the Japanese side until Adventure. Everyone after either has internet access to clarify for them or latched onto heavily Japanese controlled games with no reference for the western material to begin with. Excluding straight Modern fans who aren't affected by this divide, Western/Japanese divide is the fulcrum on which the entire so called Classic/Modern conflict is based. And it's ironic in a way, because Sonic was finalized as a collaboration between the West (specifically SoA) and Japan. Yet, it was an American who came in after who changed all of that and is credited as the reason Sonic took off in west as well as he did. Yet, this character who is a mixture of western rubber hose animals characters and Japanese aesthetic and story telling can't be reconciled. To an extent I think it's what drives such a strong demand for the Freedom Fighters to be added to the games. If they just make one appearance, suddenly, that Western Sonic only childhood is validated and everything can come back together again. I doubt it's that simple though regardless of the powers that be, because years of pure hatred simmering under the surface is unlikely to dissipate so readily, especially since most ideas that made the FFs compatible come long after Adventure first reared it's head.

Now to be fair, barely holds together for people who were only in it for the gameplay. But the Western/Japanese divide does still work to the extent that western players only playing for the gameplay are going to have a hard time putting up with the Japanese need to give in depth reason to action. Most creatives can't just say this is happening and be good with that. There has to be some reason and when you divorce the gameplay and reason you get the disassociation between world and narrative that Lost World suffers from. This is obviously fine for someone who can play a game entirely for gameplay divorced of everything else that completes the experience for others, but for those others, it just sits completely wrong and destroys the experience. At that point no amount of a good gameplay can satisfy that group. And of course, more often than not that group grew up affected by Japanese Sonic and not Western, bringing the divide front and center to continue preventing reconciliation

Anyway, that was a bit of a rant, but I hope it provides you with a different way to think about and see where a lot of the animosity can come from. It's really just a hypothesis, but it's one based on my observations and experience both with this fanbase, and human nature. It would be nice if we could reconcile things, and frankly I still think having an arcade and story mode in the same game would solve most problems pretty easily. Either way, I'm glad I'm one of the few who has been with Sonic since the beginning and found out about the Japanese allowing me to turn my back on the Western side. It's allowed me to appreciate the western side these days, but it also allowed me to not be caught in the division caused by Adventure. Rather, I loved it and Adventure 2. It wasn't until People started remembering Sonic as Mario come Heroes that I started to notice the divide, which to this day I think has only grown worse.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

40 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Bullshit. I grew up on Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, and played the shit out of Sonic 3 & Knuckles when I got Sonic Mega Collection; I didn't need to grow up from 1991 to understand that the game was good, or that it was fundamental to who Sonic was. And I have watched that video, and in later videos, Geek goes on to say that just because he has a preference for the classic titles and aesthetics doesn't mean that sheer love for the Dreamcast titles wasn't valid.

This idea that we're all just unpleasable and can never be satisfied is just a huge self-fulfilling prophecy that feeds into why this fanbase is the way it is; we all believe we're fundamentally different can never get along, and so we act upon on it and make it so. I can't tell you how sick I was of being forced "pick a side" in this fandom when there was something that I have loved from every era. Can't be a classic fan without being called a "nostalgia purist who is afraid of change", can't be an adventure fan without being called "a fan who grew up in the wrong era of games" so I just thought "Screw both of them" and kept to myself. 

Yes, what we define as integral in this series will always be fundamentally different and our priorities will always lie elsewhere, but rather than using that as fuel to divide us and go to "war" with each other, we should just respect our differences while trying to understand why we feel the way we do. Now yea, this is easier said than done and requires years of experience and maturity to actually practice and I already know most of this fanbase skewers extremely young; younger fans simply do not have the ability to do this and will always be way more passionate and extreme when they feel what they love is being unfairly treated, especially towards whom they consider "Boomers". But that just means that us, being the actual adults (I hope) to understand this, respect how they feel, and not look down on them about it simply because they feel differently. Doing that will simply breed yet another generation of toxic fans who will do the same thing the previous two generations did. 

If you don't care about the games having a plot, or any extra characters, fine that is perfectly valid, but you can do one of two things in that case; 1) Get some insight on why people care about this particular aspect that you feel is unimportant or 2)If still don't care after that, just politely bow out of the conversation if it's a subject you don't care about. What you shouldn't do is tell people who do care about plot and characters that their preferences aren't important for the series, because all that is going to do is piss people off and turn them against you. 

 

There's literally no reason some of us should be at each other's throats when there are things that we can all agree on, or just agree to disagree on. But I'll tell you one thing, I'm tired of feeling what I like about the series is wrong, or that I'm not allowed other things outside of the stuff that I grew up with. It's  tiresome and a large reason why I have distanced myself from the fanbase, because it's just misery. The Shadow topic I made was literally one of the most enjoyable things I have done in a while because it's the first time in a long time where I just gushed about something I loved about this franchise which I haven't felt for years. 

It's not that the dreamcast/GameCube love isn't valid, that's not my point. It's easy for me to acknowledge that some fans simply have a different referemce point for the series than I do. The difficult thing to handle for many fans, is when the direction of the series seem to shift away from the thing they see as their default. It's the reason so many adventure fans have been so loud the past few years. It makes them feel hopeless and starts flame wars because we yell at Sonic Tram about them not giving us what we want and eventually yell at each other for not agreeing. There is a very natural conflict because if we don't speak up, we get ignored for a very long time and this is not satisfying. @Sonic Fan J elucidated this nicely with the western/Japanese analogy. 

And wasn't suggesting that there are actual dividing lines between eras, that's not reality. My top 5 sonic games span across the entire history of the franchise from classic, to adventure, to boost... So even though I regard the classic Era as the peak, I still enjoy others almost as much. What I am saying is that, since the series has seemed to flounder so much without a stable sense of direction, fans are always arguing about which direction should be taken. And we will generally always return to our default, it's inevitable. I can appreciate the hell out of unleashed, colors, generations. I very much do. But if I'm being honest, the thing I want most in this franchise is still for the series to successfully translate the classic gameplay into 3D, into a concept similar to Sonic Utopia, or at the very least like SA1 but in a much more focused manner. And I'm never not going to feel this way. I've gotten used to accepting every sonic title that comes out just because I'm a huge fan and have been since day 1. I support sonic when he's good, even if it's not my vision. But I'm not going to stop wanting what I want. And I don't expect another fan to either. The best we can do is agree to disagree, when we find ourselves at odds about this. But again, it's the best we can do.

We can listen to each other moan about how great our favorite games were but that all depends on how much it harmonizes with our idea of sonic from the beginning. No matter what anyone tells me, there is basically nothing anyone can do to get me to appreciate another fan's view that Sonic 06 is a hidden masterpiece... or an obvious one, to some... Seriously, that fanbase exists as you probably know. I'm sorry, I cannot take those people seriously at all, that game is a catastrophe. See what I mean? I could have also said "the soundtrack to that game wasn't half bad" and it'd be true for me, it actually wasn't.... But the conversation ends there. It's not like we can go much further, I'm not going to force myself to appreciate something I genuinely do not because someone else does and neither should they for me. Sometimes in life, we have much to gain from listening to others and learning more about things we wouldn't have otherwise known or listened to. Sometimes we don't. It's not always clear when this applies.

If you're advocating for more civility I'm right behind you but I think that's the best we can do on a wider basis. 

[Kuzu]

Any franchise that tries to modernize itself is always going to receive pushback from the pursits; but this series didn't make a name for itself by playing it safe and sticking with "what works". Much like the title character, it succeeded by blazing it's own path and not caring what others thought about it, and sure enough, it succeeded. 

But ever since the fallout from 06, this series has been desperately trying to please every facet of its fanbase by throwing everything we have been screaming about together in some mishmash. And because of that, it just makes us scream louder when we feel like we're being "neglected". It doesn't help that the games themselves are still of middling quality, which just reinforces to people of a certain direction is the "wrong one".

 

In short, this is basically going to keep happening so as long as Sega is insecure in what they want this series to be and desperately cling to what they think the fanbase wants. Above anything else, I think the fanbase just wants some fucking quality control and for the games to actually go beyond merely being "good". 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

44 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Any franchise that tries to modernize itself is always going to receive pushback from the pursits; but this series didn't make a name for itself by playing it safe and sticking with "what works". Much like the title character, it succeeded by blazing it's own path and not caring what others thought about it, and sure enough, it succeeded. 

But ever since the fallout from 06, this series has been desperately trying to please every facet of its fanbase by throwing everything we have been screaming about together in some mishmash. And because of that, it just makes us scream louder when we feel like we're being "neglected". It doesn't help that the games themselves are still of middling quality, which just reinforces to people of a certain direction is the "wrong one".

 

In short, this is basically going to keep happening so as long as Sega is insecure in what they want this series to be and desperately cling to what they think the fanbase wants. Above anything else, I think the fanbase just wants some fucking quality control and for the games to actually go beyond merely being "good". 

And see, here I'm going to argue with you again! (lol, j/k) 

I think an important addition to that statement though, is that Sonic blazed his own path because he successfully established his own identity, in the games at the very least. To this day, no one confuses Sonic with anything else, he's unique. This happened because Sonic's three dads knew exactly what they wanted to do with the character, thought about it carefully, and executed. And it didn't happen all at once, they refined him over several titles, until they perfected him... But this was based on a clear vision and identity. When was the last time ST did this successfully? Probably the 90s to be quite honest. (edit: generations perfected the boost formula to a degree, so I should mention that). 

If there's any real critique of the 3D Era I'd have beyond my personal tastes which are irrelevant, I'd say that Sonic Team never got the proper confidence to establish clearly what Sonic was to be, and then build on it. Part of that is the fault of classic fans and critics (d'oh! Us again... ) who had become accustomed to the series from its original form. Many of our criticisms were with things like style and aesthetic choices, which while not invalid, were also us feeling like the series belonged to us. And then our more valid criticisms like the foundational gameplay issues, got drowned out in complaints about stuff like extra characters and darker stories. And this happened again with Sonic Colors, and Adventure fans assuming our role as the new boomers (lol). 

But notice something important: 3D Sonic's problem is none of us. It's the developers not knowing what they want to do with him. I know you know this already as well. If they would pick a direction, Any direction, with confidence and the intent on making kick ass games, I'm sure that Sonic will do fine regardless of what he decides to do next. The only thing important really, is to understand what makes Sonic, Sonic, from several key perspectives... 

 

.... Oh wait now we're in trouble again

[Sonic Fan J]

9 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

.... Oh wait now we're in trouble again

Or you know, they could consult Naka, Oshima, and Yasuhara. Or heck, just read all of the old documents, For as much as SEGA wants Sonic to have a defined identity, they sure are adverse to using the one he was released with and built upon every time those three worked together. And if that's too much, Maekawa is only one man, and while his stories without corporate breathing down his neck were darker, he understood the adventure mentality with weight and whimsey well enough to also line up with that original direction Naka spearheaded. Why they are so adverse to it is ridiculous since the sales numbers more than speaks for itself is beyond me. Well, except for the whole SEGA hate's money meme.

[Kuzu]

39 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

And see, here I'm going to argue with you again! (lol, j/k) 

I think an important addition to that statement though, is that Sonic blazed his own path because he successfully established his own identity, in the games at the very least. To this day, no one confuses Sonic with anything else, he's unique. This happened because Sonic's three dads knew exactly what they wanted to do with the character, thought about it carefully, and executed. And it didn't happen all at once, they refined him over several titles, until they perfected him... But this was based on a clear vision and identity. When was the last time ST did this successfully? Probably the 90s to be quite honest. (edit: generations perfected the boost formula to a degree, so I should mention that). 

If there's any real critique of the 3D Era I'd have beyond my personal tastes which are irrelevant, I'd say that Sonic Team never got the proper confidence to establish clearly what Sonic was to be, and then build on it. Part of that is the fault of classic fans and critics (d'oh! Us again... ) who had become accustomed to the series from its original form. Many of our criticisms were with things like style and aesthetic choices, which while not invalid, were also us feeling like the series belonged to us. And then our more valid criticisms like the foundational gameplay issues, got drowned out in complaints about stuff like extra characters and darker stories. And this happened again with Sonic Colors, and Adventure fans assuming our role as the new boomers (lol). 

But notice something important: 3D Sonic's problem is none of us. It's the developers not knowing what they want to do with him. I know you know this already as well. If they would pick a direction, Any direction, with confidence and the intent on making kick ass games, I'm sure that Sonic will do fine regardless of what he decides to do next. The only thing important really, is to understand what makes Sonic, Sonic, from several key perspectives... 

 

.... Oh wait now we're in trouble again

Just as you feel Sonic 1, and Sonic Generations defined the series for the time it was, there's one game that clearly defined what the dreamcast era was and I think you and I both know what it is. 

That's right baby, this game defined an entire generation of Sonic, for better or worse and I can make a decent argument that no game since has really defined the series as much as this one has. Like you said, there was a huge split between Sega/Classic fans who grew up on Sega consoles and saw this game as the end of an era, but this being the very first game on a Nintendo console, served to define the entire series for that audience. 

Sonic Adventure still had many traits from the classic games, but it was this one that really broke away from the mold. And you can tell because it literally held the distinct honor of being the highest rated game in the series for sixteen years until Sonic Mania. I already went over how Iizuka and the American team wanted to follow up Adventure's success, and they knew this would probably be the last game that would be on a Sega console and they wanted to go out with a bang. 

The creators knew what they wanted this game to be, and regardless of you personally feel about it, you can't deny the legacy this game has achieved as it is still fondly remembered even by people who don't even engage with the franchise. It took what was good from its predecessor and streamlined it, added similar story beats, and introduced one of the series` most iconic characters. No it wasn't perfect and was pretty flawed, but the game was completely earnest in what it wanted to do, and every game afterward up until Sonic 06 had referenced in one way or another. If there's a game that defines what this series is, this is definitely one of them. 

18 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Or you know, they could consult Naka, Oshima, and Yasuhara. Or heck, just read all of the old documents, For as much as SEGA wants Sonic to have a defined identity, they sure are adverse to using the one he was released with and built upon every time those three worked together. And if that's too much, Maekawa is only one man, and while his stories without corporate breathing down his neck were darker, he understood the adventure mentality with weight and whimsey well enough to also line up with that original direction Naka spearheaded. Why they are so adverse to it is ridiculous since the sales numbers more than speaks for itself is beyond me. Well, except for the whole SEGA hate's money meme.

Because the media outlet refuses to let them forget Sonic 06, and pretty much everything since has been trying to avoid "another 06". That's kind of why people are so against the modern games. Beyond just the standard Generational gap, it feels like Sega is actively trying to shy away from the things that made Sonic...well...Sonic in order to turn him into something with more broad appeal, to please the largest amount of people possible while causing the least amount of strife. And yea, I know that can literally be said for what Adventure did to Classic as well. But contrary to popular belief, even the Adventure era still paid homage and reverence to the classics(Green Hill was in SA2, Heroes is pretty much a classic throwback through and through, the handhelds had green hill esc levels). The only games that really kind didn't were the two games that are generally considered the worst of that era (Shadow and 06 :V)

Sure, you can argue that the games since Colors aren't bad. They're actually perfectly fine for what they are in fact. But I don't see anyone going to bat for them anywhere near as much as I see people go to bat for classic or Adventure. It's been ten years since Sonic Colors and I can't tell if people actually liked Colors and how it defined the series or they're just content to just sit on the sidelines and simply not speak. 

[Sonic Fan J]

17 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Because the media outlet refuses to let them forget Sonic 06, and pretty much everything since has been trying to avoid "another 06". That's kind of why people are so against the modern games. Beyond just the standard Generational gap, it feels like Sega is actively trying to shy away from the things that made Sonic...well...Sonic in order to turn him into something with more broad appeal, to please the largest amount of people possible while causing the least amount of strife. And yea, I know that can literally be said for what Adventure did to Classic as well. But contrary to popular belief, even the Adventure era still paid homage and reverence to the classics(Green Hill was in SA2, Heroes is pretty much a classic throwback through and through, the handhelds had green hill esc levels). The only games that really kind didn't were the two games that are generally considered the worst of that era (Shadow and 06 :V)

Sure, you can argue that the games since Colors aren't bad. They're actually perfectly fine for what they are in fact. But I don't see anyone going to bat for them anywhere near as much as I see people go to bat for classic or Adventure. It's been ten years since Sonic Colors and I can't tell if people actually liked Colors and how it defined the series or they're just content to just sit on the sidelines and simply not speak. 

The funny thing about the Adventure redesign is that Naka wasn't spitting on what came before at all; he was trying to save what Sonic was supposed to be from merchandising. I used to always wonder why the moved away from Oshima's Sonic until I read that interview (there's a whole thread discussing it around here somewhere) and I understood it since I never saw Sonic as cute despite how hard merchandising tried to make him out to be otherwise.

Of course I'm one of the rare ones I've said before in that I like most things Sonic pre-Colors. Post Colors not so much, but I think a lot of that is due to my Japanese Sonic bias. I never played colors though due to not owning a Nintendo console, but it was the first Sonic game I ever saw that turned me away. Despite thinking the focus on Sonic's running as it was talked about before release would make the game good, everything about it just turned me away post Unleashed. It just wasn't Sonic to me and I was so disappointed until Generations came around, and let me down it's own way. Unfortunately it's been all down hill since, yet SEGA is happy with Forces not even moving a quarter million units. The adventure games both sold over 3 millions each, yet SEGA is happy these day without even moving a quarter million and I'm told to see that as a good thing. No main Sonic Platformer has ever sold as bad as Forces, and SEGA was happy with it. I don't even know what to say to that to be honest.

[Badnik Mechanic]

On 4/7/2020 at 1:18 PM, Jack at Home said:

 

I do find it funny that this video instead of debunking SA1R rumors, it reinforces them despite trying the opposite.

But the video does actually reinforce the idea that there's an "Adventure-something" coming, otherwise what the hell is coming?

"Your video reinforces the idea that a Sonic Adventure Remake is coming, because we have no idea what is coming... so it must be a Sonic Adventure Remake."

... ... ....

There used to be a snooker table in this pub.

I mean... How do I respond to this... you literally admit multiple times in your reply that my comments are right, that everything people say points to an adventure remake is false, baseless and... doesn't mean anything.. I just.. How can even come to the conclusion that it reinforces the rumours lol?

On 4/7/2020 at 5:30 PM, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Every animated cartoon so far was to directly tie-in with a specific game in stores, Mania and Team Sonic racing.
The Chao in space video is the only one that doesn't directly advertise a relevant game.

The obvious explanation... 

it's not tied to a game, it's tied to popular movies and even a Christmas film. Like I said in the video, it's paralleling star wars. The chao in space segments contain pretty much multiple story elements from Star Wars, what big film was released a few days after? Star Wars.

However it also has a subplot of Eggman trying to steal the christmas gifts. Which in itself is a mini parallel to The Grinch, he's even dressed in a Santa suit.

Not everything has to be tied to a game.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Just as you feel Sonic 1, and Sonic Generations defined the series for the time it was, there's one game that clearly defined what the dreamcast era was and I think you and I both know what it is. 

I think you read me wrong. I wasn't saying that SA2 specifically didn't know what it wanted to be. SA2 was very distinct actually and partly why it's such a polarizing game in the franchise history. It marked the clear point of a new Era in just about every way. 

What I was saying is that ST didn't build on the main ideas of that era and perfect it. From SA1 to 06, they didn't actually build on and refine most of the important concepts, they made wholesale changes to the formula because of fan and critical response, as well as their own development issues with the game. (iizuka once recalled his own issues with the game, mostly relating to how he thought the game didn't appeal to a broad enough audience. I have no idea if that's true and I feel like I don't really agree, even though I agree with many other comments). 

SA2 was probably the peak of that era in terms of what many of those fans wanted and what's interesting is that it's so commonly the first title for most fans around that time. But my point is that it was not a perfected formula even on the basis of what they wanted. The terrible camera and collision issues had still not been worked out from SA1, the level design was still pretty narrow in comparison to what most of those fans conceptualize, especially with the suspension over bottomless pit syndrome, it really closely resembled today's boost games more than an open, fully 3D setting, despite the overall looser movement. The mechs actually took a step backwards from SA1 with their clunkyness. Even the controls had some issues with mapping (not the way Sonic moves, but the actual button inputs). On its own merits, the game hadn't nailed its own ideas down pat. And after SA2 there was a serious decline in attention to these ideas and quality in general. So even if you think SA2 was great, it clearly didn't nail everything down and where was the improvement to perfection? ST kept switching up its ideas and threw a lot of it away or just made its problems worse over time. That's my point. SA1 - SA2 - Heroes - Shadow - 06 was not a progression of perfection in regards to the things even those fans want, never mind other games in the franchises history. 

During that time period, ST kept making wide changes because they weren't confident in what they had. And they've said this themselves, it's not even my opinion. Otherwise, they would have continued to build on it until that game had a completely refined formula like Sonic 3 did. Period. 

(not comparing it to Sonic 3 in style. Just saying, it's undeniable that the progression from sonic 1 to 3, was just further and further refinement of a rough initial concept to its eventual perfection) 

56 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

yet SEGA is happy with Forces not even moving a quarter million units. The adventure games both sold over 3 millions each, yet SEGA is happy these day without even moving a quarter million and I'm told to see that as a good thing. No main Sonic Platformer has ever sold as bad as Forces, and SEGA was happy with it. I don't even know what to say to that to be honest.

Where did you get those numbers from? I was not aware of such numbers for Forces. And to your point, SA1 and 2 were top sellers for their day, so the standard has fallen quite low. Sonic games used to be expected to sell among the best of the day. Today they have fallen to niche categorization. Very disappointing as someone who was there for the series crazy heights. You can't even use the genre excuse, because Sonics peers still sell among the top in the industry. 

Even then, I do not believe them for a second that they're happy with it. I have heard from many that Iizuka was not pleased with the way Forces turned out. And it's so obvious to read through the company's actions after release. I forget who it was, but some Sega official said (not verbatim) even if the game isn't the best quality, it was only $40 as opposed to $60. So more or less, they were expecting a flop and it clearly shows. Every action they took to market the game and show any pride whatsoever, was exactly the opposite of Mania. I could go through so many examples but you've probably seen some of it yourself. 

[Plasme]

I agree with @Kuzu that Sonic Adventure 2 is an incredibly important game and introduced a lot of people to Sonic. It was the first Sonic game to launch on a relevant system for a long time, it introduced Sonic to people who never played him but had heard about him and it's a fan-beloved game. And for good reason, as flawed as I think it is, it is a good game and it has huge importance.

But there's a huge, huge, difference between SA2 and Sonic 2. SA2 was a very important game for a console's early line up. Sonic 2 was a cultural milestone and defined an entire generation. Sonic 2 is in the league of Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, Mario 64. Zelda OoT. Halo, Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty. SA2 is nowhere near on that level. 

And you know, you can talk about playing the classic games on Mega Collection, I did that and had great fun with it. But I don't think you can truly appreciate the cultural impact of Sonic 2 unless you played it when it came out. If you played Call of Duty MW2 now if the multiplayer was remastered, you aren't really playing MW2 at its height. You can't really fully appreciate what it was. And I'm using MW2 as an example because I can bet that everyone on this forum played it or at least knew about it when it was at the height of its popularity. That was Sonic 2.