Sonic 30th predictions

[Roger_van_der_weide]

10 hours ago, Badnik Mechanic said:

The obvious explanation... 

it's not tied to a game, it's tied to popular movies and even a Christmas film. Like I said in the video, it's paralleling star wars. The chao in space segments contain pretty much multiple story elements from Star Wars, what big film was released a few days after? Star Wars.

However it also has a subplot of Eggman trying to steal the christmas gifts. Which in itself is a mini parallel to The Grinch, he's even dressed in a Santa suit.

Not everything has to be tied to a game.

Good point.
In fact, such a good point I already brought it up in the very message you responded to.

 

On 4/7/2020 at 6:30 PM, Roger_van_der_weide said:

I suppose the answer is that Sega wanted to ride the coattails of Star Wars, like that video implied.

But never mind this. I'm more then happy to believe that all the Sonic adventure rumors are clunky, stretched and likely fake. Sonic Adventure fans are  setting themselves up for a likely dissapointment. Sure. But here's the thing.


Let's say only 35% of the promotion Sega does is based on Sonic adventure. The rest is based on Classic Sonic, Modern Sonic, Movie Sonic, Boom Sonic.
So thinking that they're hinting toward something Sonic Adventure related is silly, they're promoting so much more.

However, the other things promoted are real, relevant, and have gotten new products. Adventure doesn't. So I can't make the point that All promotion is made for Sonic adventure, but I can make a case that a disapproperiate amount of promotion is used for something utterly obsolete.
Hence Adventure fans still expect something to happen.


Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not using this as an argument that there is a Sonic adventure remastered coming. This is probably just a side effect that Sonic adventure is just one of the more memorable and interesting products that's a good foundation for a ton of jokes and memes. As opposed to the dead wasteland that is the modern Sonic scene.


So alright. Adventure fans overthinking silly internet memes and expecting the occasional music remix to be some kind of elaborate puzzlepiece of a treasure map rather then just innocent fun. They're overthinking themselves into empty hype.

Sure. But uh, hey Sonic PR team? Yeah, Adventure fans are morons who deserve misery, but you guys ALSO see this coming, right?
You do see how everytime you make a big splash about Sonic adventure pushes them more and more into getting excited for a nonexistant product?
And you do realize that once the bubble bursts, they're going to be furious about this, right?
I mean, sure, they all deserve it. It ain't your fault they take it all so serious. But nonetheless, PR Team, do you WANT there to be a lot of angry Sonic fans furious about something you helped cultivate?



Look, I don't care. I'm already detached and burned out on Sonic, so I'm just sitting here with my popcorn waiting for the whole situation to explode.
Cynical jerk that I am at this point, I actually prefer Sega to come up with a dumb Wisp Puzzle pink donut land garbage game since I think they need to burn their fingers some more to shape up. Much rather watch that hypothetical game crash and burn then having to brave Modern Sonic Team's brilliant interpretation on how Sonic adventure can be improved.

But no matter how much it's the dumb Sonic Adventure fans doing this to themselves, I have zero symphathy or pity for Sega's own team who cultivated this situation to begin with. You keep reminding people of an era of Sonic that's long begone and Sega has no interest in revisiting, you're accidently hyping people for a product that doesn't exist, even if you're just having an innocent chuckle that was intended to be a friendly gesture to the fans. Sure.
Hope you don't mind me having a non-innocent chuckle when the sitatuation explodes.


So basically, never mind whether I BELIEVE that Sonic Adventure remastered is coming or not, I hope for Sega's PR Team's sake that it is. Or at least some other legit Adventure esque product. Because there's going to be a backlash when there isn't, and as much as it's the fans fault for being dumb, Sega's team is just as dumb by not seeing this potential trainwreck coming a mile away.

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Good point.
In fact, such a good point I already brought it up in the very message you responded to.

 

But never mind this. I'm more then happy to believe that all the Sonic adventure rumors are clunky, stretched and likely fake. Sonic Adventure fans are  setting themselves up for a likely dissapointment. Sure. But here's the thing.


Let's say only 35% of the promotion Sega does is based on Sonic adventure. The rest is based on Classic Sonic, Modern Sonic, Movie Sonic, Boom Sonic.
So thinking that they're hinting toward something Sonic Adventure related is silly, they're promoting so much more.

However, the other things promoted are real, relevant, and have gotten new products. Adventure doesn't. So I can't make the point that All promotion is made for Sonic adventure, but I can make a case that a disapproperiate amount of promotion is used for something utterly obsolete.
Hence Adventure fans still expect something to happen.


Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not using this as an argument that there is a Sonic adventure remastered coming. This is probably just a side effect that Sonic adventure is just one of the more memorable and interesting products that's a good foundation for a ton of jokes and memes. As opposed to the dead wasteland that is the modern Sonic scene.


So alright. Adventure fans overthinking silly internet memes and expecting the occasional music remix to be some kind of elaborate puzzlepiece of a treasure map rather then just innocent fun. They're overthinking themselves into empty hype.

Sure. But uh, hey Sonic PR team? Yeah, Adventure fans are morons who deserve misery, but you guys ALSO see this coming, right?
You do see how everytime you make a big splash about Sonic adventure pushes them more and more into getting excited for a nonexistant product?
And you do realize that once the bubble bursts, they're going to be furious about this, right?
I mean, sure, they all deserve it. It ain't your fault they take it all so serious. But nonetheless, PR Team, do you WANT there to be a lot of angry Sonic fans furious about something you helped cultivate?



Look, I don't care. I'm already detached and burned out on Sonic, so I'm just sitting here with my popcorn waiting for the whole situation to explode.
Cynical jerk that I am at this point, I actually prefer Sega to come up with a dumb Wisp Puzzle pink donut land garbage game since I think they need to burn their fingers some more to shape up. Much rather watch that hypothetical game crash and burn then having to brave Modern Sonic Team's brilliant interpretation on how Sonic adventure can be improved.

But no matter how much it's the dumb Sonic Adventure fans doing this to themselves, I have zero symphathy or pity for Sega's own team who cultivated this situation to begin with. You keep reminding people of an era of Sonic that's long begone and Sega has no interest in revisiting, you're accidently hyping people for a product that doesn't exist, even if you're just having an innocent chuckle that was intended to be a friendly gesture to the fans. Sure.
Hope you don't mind me having a non-innocent chuckle when the sitatuation explodes.


So basically, never mind whether I BELIEVE that Sonic Adventure remastered is coming or not, I hope for Sega's PR Team's sake that it is. Or at least some other legit Adventure esque product. Because there's going to be a backlash when there isn't, and as much as it's the fans fault for being dumb, Sega's team is just as dumb by not seeing this potential trainwreck coming a mile away.

 

I.... Don't think it'll be nearly the trainwreck you suggest if no adventure thing comes out. Nobody ever told you there was going to be one. Youre saying you understand this but get upset anyway. I don't get it, honestly. There really haven't been that many references compared to the other Sonic properties. And I'm saying this, despite me thinking that an adventure type game is actually reasonable possibility based on the timing and the growing fan noise in recent years. I think some of you are fighting against themselves. You cannot blame SEGA for your own mental prison, when they never, ever said they were going back to Adventure. Iizuka recently said he might want to revisit it again someday. That is the only direct statement made about it, in probably the last decade. 

It'd be different if they actually did say it, you know? They've done that to classic fans in the past because they know the fundamental importantance of classic to the series history. But then, they literally said it verbatim. They did no such thing here. In fact, in the last few years, Iizuka has said more times than not he's not sure he'd want to go back in that direction anytime soon. So really, you should not have any expectations until they show you otherwise.

 

Doesn't mean you should stop asking for it, of course you should if it's what you really want. Also, I'd be interested in an SA1 remake too if that's what SEGA decides to do for 2021, so I'm not fighting against you. Just don't get hyped up over anything until you have a real reason to. If the franchise' s history has taught you anything, it should be that. 

[Sonic Fan J]

Sorry for the delay @UpCDownCLeftCRightC, but I got them from the Sonic News wiki though I suddenly can't find it there. Fortunately it just seemed to be lifted straight from the VGsales wiki so here's the link to that (https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic). I know VGsales is not a reliable source but it was what I found when I was looking for data actually on 06's sales. It is interesting to hear though that Iizuka and others weren't happy with it (so why exactly did you ship even with a new CEO who claims to want quality and to win back the trust of Sonic fans?). I find that rather curious to be honest.

And I guess it is true that SEGA have distanced themselves as fast as they could, with Infinite being off limits in the IDW comics and not being used in places where it makes sense like TSR.

You know, it's funny you should mention that about Sonic 2 @Plasme. I only played it once at a friends house back before 3&K and only knew of Tails really through game magazines and the cartoons. I knew more about Knuckles before I finally was able to play 2,3, an K on Sonic Jam on the Saturn and actually soak the two of them up more. To me, Sonic CD was the definitive Sonic game back in the nineties as that's the one I ended up playing besides the original during it's debut window. But that doesn't mean I wasn't aware of how huge Sonic and Tails were. I still remember reading the magazine article claiming that Sonic was more globally recognizable than Mickey Mouse and having my mind blown.

[Red Hot Jack]

I don't think it is possible, that Forces sold not even 2k copies. I doubt it, sure it didn't do much but I really doubt it's less than Lost World. Sega Sammy were "content" about its performance from what I remember. The game was out on 4 platforms, so that's why I doubt it. Also considering they completely ignored M&S Tokyo or back in 2016 Fire and Ice, now those must have been big bombs. Meanwhile sure, Mania did a lot more, passing 1 million downloads before Plus physical release (from what I remember). Anyway, I don't care too much because Forces kinda deserved a flop, we should support Sonic games but not encourage if they suck. I just think they aren't too dumb and realised the fans liked the only good parts of the game, the more popular ones I can think of are the Avatar concept plus Infinite (mostly for design and theme reasons). 

About Infinite: he's popular, I don't think he's gone for good. He is seemingly dead ATM that's maybe why he is off-limits for comics and mobile games. He still appeared in the tabletop game, in Ultimate as a spirit, in the recent Monopoly Gamer which I do find interesting, he didn't disappear completely unlike Sticks, who Sega wants forgotten and buried, pretending Boom never existed. That's the difference.

Also reminder that even Classic Sonic and Avatar are off-limits in the comics, doesn't mean they are gone. I suspect it's a case of big restrictions a la Shadow. Heck, after Orbot & Cubot, the only new characters that have been available in the comics are the Zeti.

[Sonic Fan J]

2 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

I don't think it is possible, that Forces sold not even 2k copies.

Fortunately you don't have to believe that. The chart listed the number in millions so 0.121 would read as one hundred twenty-one thousand. Hopefully that clarifies things for you.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

@Sonic Fan JI've been wanting for years to get a more accurate source on video game sales. Spent an hour yesterday searching through old magazines in the 90s actually. It's really interesting to go back and see the enormous impact Sonic games had on the landscape once. Hard to believe now, but from 1992-1994 he was actually beating Mario in the market, lifting Sega to higher sales than Nintendo over a few years, and was seen as more popular by many. Of course I knew this as a kid, Sonic was plastered everywhere, but seeing the series now you might never believe that. It's just so different now.

If anyone is interested, just search Wikipedia for game sales in the year 1992,3,or 4 and follow the magazine links at the bottom. We'll actually there are a number of magazine and newspaper articles from that time that state it directly. If I have time soon I'll organize it myself, was thinking about creating a separate thread for it anyway. I'm trying to do it for pretty much the entire Sega console run, from Sonic 1 to SA2 DC. 

[knuckles20]

On 4/8/2020 at 2:26 PM, Kuzu said:

If you don't care about the games having a plot, or any extra characters, fine that is perfectly valid, but you can do one of two things in that case; 1) Get some insight on why people care about this particular aspect that you feel is unimportant or 2)If still don't care after that, just politely bow out of the conversation if it's a subject you don't care about. What you shouldn't do is tell people who do care about plot and characters that their preferences aren't important for the series, because all that is going to do is piss people off and turn them against you. 

Agreed. I have no problem with fans who enjoy Sonic CD, Colors or Mania. My problem comes from condescending fans telling me that I need to stop asking for more engaging plot, more characters playable and that I'm not a real fan because of my lack of interest in playing the classic games and still consider Adventure 2 my favorite Sonic game. Dealt with this in the 06 fallout and I'm still not buying any of that crap.

[Sonic Fan J]

19 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

@Sonic Fan JI've been wanting for years to get a more accurate source on video game sales. Spent an hour yesterday searching through old magazines in the 90s actually. It's really interesting to go back and see the enormous impact Sonic games had on the landscape once. Hard to believe now, but from 1992-1994 he was actually beating Mario in the market, lifting Sega to higher sales than Nintendo over a few years, and was seen as more popular by many. Of course I knew this as a kid, Sonic was plastered everywhere, but seeing the series now you might never believe that. It's just so different now.

If anyone is interested, just search Wikipedia for game sales in the year 1992,3,or 4 and follow the magazine links at the bottom. We'll actually there are a number of magazine and newspaper articles from that time that state it directly. If I have time soon I'll organize it myself, was thinking about creating a separate thread for it anyway. I'm trying to do it for pretty much the entire Sega console run, from Sonic 1 to SA2 DC. 

Let me know if you ever do since supposedly even investor reports don't have the exact numbers and I know NPD data is usually lacking in digital sales data.

And yeah, I miss those days with Sonic at his prime. I grew up surrounded by that and Sonic Adventure two became the peak of everything I had known. Then Heroes came along and spat on everything in the first "back to the roots" approach after eth ports got slammed (if I'm remembering my release date history accurately). It was also when I first started seeing people conflating Sonic with Mario and learned that my Japanese bias had painted the franchise in a totally different light from most.

But my rambling aside, That sounds like it'll be an interesting thread. I look forward to seeing it.

[The Man On The Inside]

Just reading a few posts here and there in this thread. It's interesting to say the least. I am one of the "I can remember the good old days" people I guess. Basically up until 2005/6, it seemed that the way Sonic was discussed was that of a legitimate icon meant to be taken seriously as a AAA IP. There was a lot more respect from the wider gaming populace.

I think it would be fair to assume that all Sonic fans, regardless of age, or what their first game was, or what their views are on extra characters/plot etc. would want that respect to come back.

Lower review scores is fundamentally the root cause of the change in attitude. Surely that's a fair statement, right? Therefore, doesn't it follow that a sustained period of 9/10 or higher review scores would, over time, shift the direction back? Think about how different the conversations on Sonic would be in 2030 if, from now on, Sonic Team-developed exclusively 3D Sonic games all got 9s or higher from IGN and so on. 

Now you could say "but guys, in order to get higher review scores, Sega would have to appease a games media permeated by a purely dogmatic and totally irrational rejection of anything Sonic tried to be after 1994! Dooming the franchise to a series of Green Hill remakes and very little 3D gameplay!" 

To that, I'm not gonna say "but you're wrong", rather, "I hope you're wrong". I used to say similar stuff: "It doesn't matter how well-designed/polished the extra characters' gameplay is, or how well the story works, their existence in the first place triggers reviewers so they must go". I'm not so sure that this is true now to be honest. I feel like there are a few non-Sonic characters you could get away with. By that I mean characters that, if handled extremely well, wouldn't negatively affect reviewers simply by being playable. Tails and Knuckles definitely. Shadow if he's more of a "re-skin" of Sonic. Maybe Amy, Maybe Blaze. Again, if done well.

Basically there's a "habitable zone" if you like, of acceptable tone, stories, characters and gameplay. But here's the thing, that habitable zone isn't just "run right and bop Robotnik on the checkerboard hill without talking", it still has large unexplored regions. I say this as someone who fits the description of "classic fan played Sonic in the 90s during early childhood got betrayed by dark age blah blah blah".

A story involving all of the aforementioned characters could be done well if it stays in that zone. I think the Avengers movies capture what I mean - our heroes hilariously bickering with each other, personalities clashing but ultimately winning the day, precisely light-hearted enough to be endearing but still with real stakes and low points. With an adherence to classical story structure of course.

I'm not saying I want the next game (or any game) to be like what I just described. More that I think that it's now possible to lift the "Sonic only" restriction, the "less 3D" restriction and the "simpler stories" restriction and still be within the habitable zone such that high (90+) Metascores are still possible. Most of the other dark age restrictions still apply though.

TL;DR: We all want Sonic to be legitimised like he was. Consistently high (90+) review scores for 3D Sonic games, developed by Sonic Team, by way of "classic physics 3D" is what I believe would give us that, even with six playable characters and a big story.

[Drisaac]

Sonic 30th's anniversary...oh boy.

i honestly don't even know where to start to tackle this discussion, not a lot of video game franchises can live long enough to tell the tale and yet here we are, 30 years of sonic.
there's too much stuff that needs to be discussed, so let's try with a one piece at a time

The Sonic Adventure remake

Let's start off with the hot topic of this time period, the remake.

The sonic adventure saga is one beloved by many, so much that it became its own piece of the fanbase known as the adventure era, and with tons of people who still cherish it to this day.

Like many people have already said in this thread, there is still no proof that said remake is going to happen, with many people even going as far as to say that SEGA is hyping up (with social media posts and Sonic's animations, like chao in space) people for a product that doesn't exist, and that once the truth comes out that an adventure remake was never in the works many are going to be mad about it.

Personally i consider myself as an Adventurefag, as i really enjoyed sonic's gameplay in 2, but i wouldn't hold it against SEGA if the rumors of the remake turn out to be fake, if anything, i hope they are, but i can see how this could enrage a lot of people, since adventure fans are still pretty active and still hoping that adventure 3 happens, someday.

But if instead the rumors turn out true and we get the remake as celebratory game for the 30th anniversary... the only things that come to my mind are only the ways they can fuck it up, and not how great it could come out.

I'll say it now: i don't trust SEGA, nor sonic team, they have a track of too many bad games and too many bad decisions in this decade, they cannot be trusted, for no reason at all, and believe there's absolutely NO WAY they could possibly make a good remake of adventure 1, not even close.

I can't, i just can't, i cannot picture how the same people who brought us the disappointing forces could be working on the remake of a game still beloved by many, it's literally a per-announced disaster, it's insanity.

Which is why i hope, from the bottom of my heart, that the adventure rumor is fake and not real, i hope that we don't get the adventure remake because this could prove that there's still someone sane of mind left at SEGA (and/or sonic team) that can speak up and say "no, we shouldn't try to remake this game, we are not capable of it" and hopefully recognize that remaking adventure is a suicidal mission they have no chances of winning.

That's all i got to say about the adventure remake, moving on:

The next game

Obviously if it's not a remake we are getting then of course it must be a brand new game.

Now, i could go on and on discussing about what i wish to see in the next sonic game, i could spent entire paragraphs discussing about what type of gameplay i wish to see, what characters i hope receive more spotlight and attention, what playable characters there are, but deep down all those words would be wasted, because in reality, i only want one thing:

I want a good sonic game.

That's it, this is all i want, i want a good game, i don't care about what gameplay style they use, i don't care about what characters appear or which ones are playable, i don't care what the story is like, all i really want is a good sonic game.

I'm pretty sure I'm only the who feels like this, but the truth is I'm tired, many sonic fans are tired, the sonic community is a community of people who are mentally drained because they have been disappointed too many times to try and take the future with optimism, we are drained because we know that disappointed is always hiding behind the corner and we must keep our guard on at any given time, it's the reason why we are all cynical and burned out for sonic.

Which is why i hope that we get a good game, just a good game.

In conclusion

A 30th anniversary is not something that is easy to celebrate, especially if you are a franchise who's currently on a streak of bad games, 2017 was meant to be the make or break point for SEGA, it was meant to be the year in which SEGA either finally makes a good game or many people are going to quit because they realized that sonic was not a series it was worth following, and they blew it up, the 30th anniversary instead is....well, i don't even know what the 30th anniversary is meant to be at this point.

Sonic Forces was a disappointing game, but ruining something like a 30th anniversary could be a tragedy that's equal, if not superior, than 06, I'm not even sure how fans would react to it, if by extreme rage towards SEGA or just straight up admit defeat and give up, it is honestly pretty scary to think about.

It's sad really, an anniversary should be a moment in which fans celebrate all the journey they traversed so far and look forward to the future, but instead we are here, miserable and cynical as always, and instead of discussing about what surprise SEGA has in store for us we are here instead discussing how big of a train wreck the anniversary could potentially be, it's sad really.

Whatever happens next year only time will tell, for now the only thing we can do is behave in the same way we have been since a few years now: keep our heads down, and hope the train wreck isn't too loud.

[Red Hot Jack]

Besides lack of talent by ST, there are a series of problems with a SA1 remake: I keep saying, SEGA doesn't have the budget and resources for something so big, the game offered a lot and currently Sega releases cheap games with medium to low budget, I know this is the anniversary but apparently from that data Forces sold shit, after the failures of Lost World and Boom, they will no doubt have no money to make something huge happen. It's impossible if we look at it this way, the money made by Mania will be for the next Classic game, so don't count on that to make up the budget for a main Modern game. Other problems: alternate playstyles that weren't Sonic were not received well by reviewers, which made Sega come back to Sonic only, I just don't see them go back again to shooting and combat styles. They are gonna play it safe.

Third issue: SA series doesn't represent the franchise anymore, it has changed, evolved, Amy is not obsessed with Sonic anymore, Tails is a tech genius and not a Sonic-like active hero, Shadow is kept as a villain or anti-hero, Knuckles has moved past Angel Island and has done other things, Sonic is also no longer a rebel type a la SA2, Eggman has gone way more mad with his plans, he has his idiotic minions, plus we have new Modern elements like the Wisps and Zavok, that Sega wants as permanent features. And of course the chaos emeralds are no longer essential elements in Sonic stories, but they have gone back to being extras. 

That's why I think a SA remake would just not work, besides it having high chance of sucking. If they remade SA1 they wouldn't be able to represent the image of the current franchise (not even Shadow could be a part of it), let alone do justice to the original game.

I would expect a game with the Modern elements Sega is trying to make as iconic and recurring themes, so what will they bring back? Possibly the human world and Chao, especially the tiny creatures are heavily being hinted at.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

2 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

Besides lack of talent by ST, there are a series of problems with a SA1 remake: I keep saying, SEGA doesn't have the budget and resources for something so big, the game offered a lot and currently Sega releases cheap games with medium to low budget, I know this is the anniversary but apparently from that data Forces sold shit, after the failures of Lost World and Boom, they will no doubt have no money to make something huge happen. It's impossible if we look at it this way, the money made by Mania will be for the next Classic game, so don't count on that to make up the budget for a main Modern game. Other problems: alternate playstyles that weren't Sonic were not received well by reviewers, which made Sega come back to Sonic only, I just don't see them go back again to shooting and combat styles. They are gonna play it safe.

Third issue: SA series doesn't represent the franchise anymore, it has changed, evolved, Amy is not obsessed with Sonic anymore, Tails is a tech genius and not a Sonic-like active hero, Shadow is kept as a villain or anti-hero, Knuckles has moved past Angel Island and has done other things, Sonic is also no longer a rebel type a la SA2, Eggman has gone way more mad with his plans, he has his idiotic minions, plus we have new Modern elements like the Wisps and Zavok, that Sega wants as permanent features. And of course the chaos emeralds are no longer essential elements in Sonic stories, but they have gone back to being extras. 

That's why I think a SA remake would just not work, besides it having high chance of sucking. If they remade SA1 they wouldn't be able to represent the image of the current franchise (not even Shadow could be a part of it), let alone do justice to the original game.

I would expect a game with the Modern elements Sega is trying to make as iconic and recurring themes, so what will they bring back? Possibly the human world and Chao, especially the tiny creatures are heavily being hinted at.

Good post.

However I think this is part of the reason many people think the next title is going to be somewhat of a reboot. Even putting aside the Adventure stuff for a second, it's become pretty clear that Sonic Team is interested in not only keeping Mania as a part of the franchise, but incorporating elements of it in their main games. I don't actually know what that means to them, none of us do, which is what makes us nervous. But the point is, they are evaluating the direction of their games and have said so themselves. Even if the next game is not an Adventure style game, I'd be pretty surprised if they maintained course. There's literally no reason to, since Forces did not do well critically and the sales, according to some, were not what they wanted.... Merely what they accepted given they knew they had a dud. (Of course this latter point is based on rumors and bits here and there.)

Even before Forces released, people forget, Sonic Team had already stated they wanted to move away from the boost formula (mind you, for a lot of the same reasons we fans discuss) , which is why they made Lost World. https://sonicretro.org/2013/08/08/sos-2013-takashi-iizuka-interview/

A lot of people forget that. The only reason they went back to it with Forces, IMO, was because Boom was a disaster and they needed to release something proven. 

 

Again though, overall I'm with you. The only reason I think an Adventure remake is a reasonable possibility at some point, is because Sonic Team definitely listens to its fans. They always do. They care about pleasing us, especially Iizuka. But they don't always have the resources they need and are continually confused by the fanbase which is very split and asking for different things which contradict each other. 

The most likely scenario is that the next game goes in a different direction than the 2010s did. Right now, we're left to speculate. We will probably start to get hints soon enough. 

 

[Plasme]

35 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Good post.

However I think this is part of the reason many people think the next title is going to be somewhat of a reboot. Even putting aside the Adventure stuff for a second, it's become pretty clear that Sonic Team is interested in not only keeping Mania as a part of the franchise, but incorporating elements of it in their main games. I don't actually know what that means to them, none of us do, which is what makes us nervous.

 

We have no idea if Sonic Team are interested in Mania beyond what it was in 2017. We know Stealth no longer works at SEGA and I get the impression that EveningStar is working on their own project.

[Kuzu]

Forces established that they are willing to move things back to an Adventure style setting; It has more playable characters and the darker tone that most Adventure fans are looking for. It's just kind bogged down by trying to be too much like Sonic Colors/Generations. 

I do think Forces was the swan song for Boost though; what playstyle they design next is anyone's guess. I'd honestly prefer them to try Adventure style again, but it's just as likely that they will make something else. 

Mania is kind of weird though; Whitehead and his team no longer work at Sega it seems, and they don't seem t be interested in making any type of sequel for Mania. Whether that means Sega will try to do so with their own in-house team remains to be seen. (Please for the love of god, don't do this) 

[Red Hot Jack]

I agree with everything Kuzu said. Except... Why wouldn't they build on the success of Mania? It was so successful, they better sort the stuff with Evening Star because if they want to follow up on that formula, they need them.

But with Forces' reception, I think they should just scrap the boost formula and 2D + Classic Sonic in 3D games. However... another hypothesis, if there isn't a new Mania coming by the Mania team, as you are suggesting, no doubt Classic Sonic will show his ass off AGAIN in the next 3D game... Meh.

Adventure style Sonic gameplay is the way to go, I agree, add new things and mechanics maybe, I just need 3D and exploration.

Returning from Adventure I can also see the Chao Garden obviously, and I believe they will try again with some old zones twisted, but this time from the SA series like Emerald Coast and Final Rush, plus a lot of brand new zones with new elements, returning villains... I say use the potential from Forces, give Chaos returning and new forms, have Metal Sonic and Shadow in rival style fights, add Zavok and Eggman with new mechs to play with, I'm not sure about Infinite, probably not but it sounds like they are keeping it quite for his potential return.

From Forces I would also keep playable Shadow as Hard Mode and explore the vast potential of the Avatar feature, a.k.a. some of the few good ideas of the game, or at least customizing Sonic in some way.

This is what I'd do with the next game.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Plasme said:

We have no idea if Sonic Team are interested in Mania beyond what it was in 2017. We know Stealth no longer works at SEGA and I get the impression that EveningStar is working on their own project.

I don't mean they are literally trying to make Mania 2. There is no evidence for it. I'm just stating that they are going to incorporate elements from Mania into their 3D formula. 

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-23-sonic-mania-and-its-impact-on-the-future-of-the-sonic-series

This is what they've said more than once. The thing to be nervous about is what lessons they actually take from the game. To be honest, I don't belive we will ever see a straight on Mania 2, even if we get another 2D classic game again. It's just not the MO of the recent Sonic Team under Iizuka, they like to switch up styles. 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Forces established that they are willing to move things back to an Adventure style setting; It has more playable characters and the darker tone that most Adventure fans are looking for. It's just kind bogged down by trying to be too much like Sonic Colors/Generations. 

I do think Forces was the swan song for Boost though; what playstyle they design next is anyone's guess. I'd honestly prefer them to try Adventure style again, but it's just as likely that they will make something else. 

Mania is kind of weird though; Whitehead and his team no longer work at Sega it seems, and they don't seem t be interested in making any type of sequel for Mania. Whether that means Sega will try to do so with their own in-house team remains to be seen. (Please for the love of god, don't do this) 

Yep, my thoughts exactly. I think they are willing to start bringing adventure related elements back to the series gradually. Maybe this is their way of testing the waters for a future title, who knows. But they are not ignorant of the adventure fanbase. They hear you loud and clear but they cannot just abandon the future of the series and shift back to those games without strong consideration of what they plan to do for the future. I think they really want to find something to build on they think works for the majority, not just adventure fans or just classic fans. 

 

I also agree about the end of boost. Like I posted before, they already stated directly they wanted to move on from it before and DID. People seem to forget that. But Boom was almost like a second Sonic 06 in how bad it was and they needed to do something to ensure that the series wouldn't be completely destroyed. I totally get what they did and why to be honest. 

1 hour ago, Jack at Home said:

From Forces I would also keep playable Shadow as Hard Mode and explore the vast potential of the Avatar feature, a.k.a. some of the few good ideas of the game, or at least customizing Sonic in some way.

This is what I'd do with the next game.

I've thought about this before. Instead of making another game with the adventure title, I think I might build a new game similar to that style of Sonic gameplay as a testing grounds of sorts. Start with just Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles gameplay. And then have a shadow be the post game hard mode. I think if they really wanted to revisit adventure, I'd do it like this as a warm up, foundational game. 

(not that I think this is necessarily the best direction, but if it happened to be the one they chose, I would approach it like this) 

[Drisaac]

Exactly, what gave you guys the idea that the boost formula might have reached the end of the line ? Like are there been interviews with Iizuka in which he said he wanted to test something new (or something related to adventure) gameplay wise ?

[Red Hot Jack]

Not with Iizuka, that interview Up posted is with Nakamura, aka the director behind Forces and '06 (I think), he hasn't worked on all Sonic games, but more occasionally, with Forces it was because Iizuka was working on supervising Mania, I believe. So I wouldn't count that interview with Shun Nakamura as proof, because he isn't a Sonic regular, I'm not sure about his role though, after what happened with those 2 games he made, I kind of hope he isn't back, same with the director Miyamoto who also did Colors/Lost World and Forces, from what I remember he made questionable decisions with linearity in gameplay and level design, plus the very basic and kiddy art style from those games, Lost World mostly.

So the next game will be impacted by:

Iizuka's leadership as usual

The Fact that Christian Whitehead (& Evening Star Team) is apparently gone and working on original projects

The collaborations with Tee Lopes, Tyson Hesse, various artists

The success of Mania, Classic Sonic and 2D gameplay

The flop of Forces and the directions of Miyamoto and Nakamura

The backlash of Classic Sonic in 3D games

The restructuring SEGA is doing with its teams, possibly that the old Sonic Team has worked on other Sega projects recently

The desire from fans (as well as Iizuka) for more Adventure style and Chao Garden content

 

The result = ???

Those are supposed to be the hints and bts facts which we can speculate on, but I have still no idea what game may come from them.

[Drisaac]

1 hour ago, Jack at Home said:

So the next game will be impacted by:

Iizuka's leadership as usual

The Fact that Christian Whitehead (& Evening Star Team) is apparently gone and working on original projects

The collaborations with Tee Lopes, Tyson Hesse, various artists

The success of Mania, Classic Sonic and 2D gameplay

The flop of Forces and the directions of Miyamoto and Nakamura

The backlash of Classic Sonic in 3D games

The restructuring SEGA is doing with its teams, possibly that the old Sonic Team has worked on other Sega projects recently

The desire from fans (as well as Iizuka) for more Adventure style and Chao Garden content

If the next game is going to be impacted by ALL of those things, then yeah, it's a huge shot in the dark to attempt to guess what it's going to come out, i just hope that the next game is not going to be a mixed bag that attempts to do too many things instead of only doing one great thing. What i'm asking from ST is focus, tons of it, we shall see how it turns out

[Jango]

20 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

Besides lack of talent by ST, there are a series of problems with a SA1 remake: I keep saying, SEGA doesn't have the budget and resources for something so big,

Hm. When are we supposed to get some news? April?

[Drisaac]

19 minutes ago, Jango said:

Hm. When are we supposed to get some news? April?

There was meant to be a panel at SXSW but obviously got cancelled due to the concern about the COVID-19 pandemic, then they claimed that they will still do the sonic panel, but in a new form and probably completely online, i just hope we will hear more about it soon, april 20th could be a hint because of the sonic 2020 campaign, but i doubt whatever news we will get from that is going to be related to the panel

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

8 hours ago, Drisaac said:

Exactly, what gave you guys the idea that the boost formula might have reached the end of the line ? Like are there been interviews with Iizuka in which he said he wanted to test something new (or something related to adventure) gameplay wise ?

It wasn't an "idea". Iizuka stated it directly and in more than one interview. Here's one I posted before:

https://sonicretro.org/2013/08/08/sos-2013-takashi-iizuka-interview/

So yes, ST has definitely wanted to move on from it. But 2014's Boom happening changed things, is my strong guess. Before that game, they were on a winning streak and had a lot of confidence. 

 

6 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

Not with Iizuka, that interview Up posted is with Nakamura, aka the director behind Forces and '06 (I think), he hasn't worked on all Sonic games, but more occasionally, with Forces it was because Iizuka was working on supervising Mania, I believe. So I wouldn't count that interview with Shun Nakamura as proof

I have to dig it up, but Iiuzka has said the exacr same thing as Nakamura in interviews. That ST is looking to the future based on what happens with Mania and it will help guide the direction of the series. The only reason I posted the nakamura one is because he specifically talked about how it would change elements of some of the games. 

And also, Nakamura is a contributing member of ST. It absolutely is proof of something if he is a contributing member who has worked on multiple games both current and previously. It doesn't matter if he's not the head of ST, he is fully aware if what the (former) team is doing and thinking since he's part of the discussions, as he said himself. 

[Red Hot Jack]

55 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

It wasn't an "idea". Iizuka stated it directly and in more than one interview. Here's one I posted before:

https://sonicretro.org/2013/08/08/sos-2013-takashi-iizuka-interview/

So yes, ST has definitely wanted to move on from it. But 2014's Boom happening changed things, is my strong guess. Before that game, they were on a winning streak and had a lot of confidence. 

 

I have to dig it up, but Iiuzka has said the exacr same thing as Nakamura in interviews. That ST is looking to the future based on what happens with Mania and it will help guide the direction of the series. The only reason I posted the nakamura one is because he specifically talked about how it would change elements of some of the games. 

And also, Nakamura is a contributing member of ST. It absolutely is proof of something if he is a contributing member who has worked on multiple games both current and previously. It doesn't matter if he's not the head of ST, he is fully aware if what the (former) team is doing and thinking since he's part of the discussions, as he said himself. 

Uhm, okay then. Mania influences in ST? I wonder in what form... or what the final result will be. 

A 3D Classic? Like Utopia??

5 hours ago, Jango said:

Hm. When are we supposed to get some news? April?

Where are you going with this, I saw the status update. You are convinced there is a SA remake.

[Jango]

52 minutes ago, Jack at Home said:

Where are you going with this, I saw the status update. You are convinced there is a SA remake.

About that. There's no better response that I can give than just wait and see.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

Ugh, an SA remake tugs at my heart strings. Yall need to stop hyping this up... You're gonna make me fangasm. If an SA remake gets announced I'm going to be really hyped. My favorite Sonic games ever are S3K.... Then a virtual tie between S2 and Adventure 1. I still remember what it was like as a kid, reading all the magazine scans of Sonic running around in Lost World and sky deck, etc, seeing all the 3D models for the first time. In my life, I've never been more hyped for a game than that, pretty much that entire year leading up to the game release. And then I had to wait to actually play it on my friend and my cousins dreamcast. It was so groundbreaking at the time, no videogame looked better than Sonic Adventure. This would bring those feels right back up. 

I just have to weigh this against my clearer thoughts, that a concept like Utopia is probably the way to go in 3D. 

Ugh I hate you guys. You're turning me into one of you, looking for clues and misinterpreting shit Aaron says. 

 

Edit: just so I'm clear, as I said before, this is not what I'm expecting, even though it is possible. Some of you just reminded me of my days as a little gradeschooler, waiting for SA1 to come out. These were the pre-Sonic cycle days, when antipacting a Sonic game was actually a very pleasant experience, as back then most people still expected excellent titles.