Why is everyone taking Infinite Seriously, a Discussion about Infinite's character, and why he's in my top 5 characters.

[Wraith]

They could have also switched Infinite's beef with getting his ass kicked over to Sonic and tied the whole thing together neatly. 

[Kuzu]

I can't really see Sonic being as callous to Infinite the way Shadow was, so it would have to be done in a way that doesn't make Sonic seem like too much of an asshole to lose sympathy.

Honestly tho, given how the game is presented, I'd just tie Infinite to both Sonic and Shadow and have it represent two sides of the conflict.

Shadow is the one who destroyed Infinite's image of his own superiority and mocked him over it, and Sonic is the symbol of hope for the planet. So Infinite could have a beef with both of them as they both represent Infinite's ideal image of proving himself to the strongest around.

[PhoenixtheJackal]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I can't really see Sonic being as callous to Infinite the way Shadow was, so it would have to be done in a way that doesn't make Sonic seem like too much of an asshole to lose sympathy.

Honestly tho, given how the game is presented, I'd just tie Infinite to both Sonic and Shadow and have it represent two sides of the conflict.

Shadow is the one who destroyed Infinite's image of his own superiority and mocked him over it, and Sonic is the symbol of hope for the planet. So Infinite could have a beef with both of them as they both represent Infinite's ideal image of proving himself to the strongest around.

Definitely wish Infinite was more focused on Shadow and Sonic was just incidentally involved, and I'm not saying I'd be opposed to him being a better character, but that I kinda like how he was in forces

[Kuzu]

Sonic should not be a secondary character in a game that's ostensibly about him. That was one of the primary issues from the older games and I don't feel we need to repeat them.

If you have to keep Infinite's focus on Shadow, then Eggman needs to be more prominent to give Sonic an actual enemy to fight given its Eggman's takeover.

[Shadowlax]

hmm I disagree with you @Wraith infinite's shadow connection outside of his old team is just about the only interesting thing about him. Its something last minute sure. But it works way better than just a sonic beef. Infinite in no uncertain terms is a shadow derivative. They tried to do shadow, again...again. From his " i'm the ultimate mercenary" to his original backstory him being entirely made by eggman his influence is very clear. The issue is , nothing is done it.

It should be the focus of his character. They have as other's have mentioned on page one. Accidentally wandered onto an interesting character who can essentially be " what if shadow's traits but not tho" his friends are dead, he doesn't give a fuck. Shadow kind of hates who his is and his power infinite actively thrists for the power shadow has and actively continues to augment his body to achieve such things and it never quite happens. I think if in future if infinite comes back, I kind of would like that. That sort of character, doesn't exist in sonic. And I think it would be kind of neat if done well

 

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic should not be a secondary character in a game that's ostensibly about him. That was one of the primary issues from the older games and I don't feel we need to repeat them.

If you have to keep Infinite's focus on Shadow, then Eggman needs to be more prominent to give Sonic an actual enemy to fight given its Eggman's takeover.

...There's plenty of fiction where the " main " character takes backseat to other things going on. If it makes the game interesting then fuck it why not. Who cares. I would play a game where the focus was on tails and sonic's name on the cover it was fun and good. who cares

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

hmm I disagree with you @Wraith infinite's shadow connection outside of his old team is just about the only interesting thing about him. Its something last minute sure. But it works way better than just a sonic beef. Infinite in no uncertain terms is a shadow derivative. They tried to do shadow, again...again. From his " i'm the ultimate mercenary" to his original backstory him being entirely made by eggman his influence is very clear. The issue is , nothing is done it.

It should be the focus of his character. They have as other's have mentioned on page one. Accidentally wandered onto an interesting character who can essentially be " what if shadow's traits but not tho" his friends are dead, he doesn't give a fuck. Shadow kind of hates who his is and his power infinite actively thrists for the power shadow has and actively continues to augment his body to achieve such things and it never quite happens. I think if in future if infinite comes back, I kind of would like that. That sort of character, doesn't exist in sonic. And I think it would be kind of neat if done well

I mean that works too. Tying it to Sonic was just me trying to work with the game's overall disinterest in Shadow but you can go the other way and expand everything. Sonic Forces is a game that takes place on a global scale.

[Kuzu]

8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

...There's plenty of fiction where the " main " character takes backseat to other things going on. If it makes the game interesting then fuck it why not. Who cares. I would play a game where the focus was on tails and sonic's name on the cover it was fun and good. who cares

I know this is down to personal preference at the end of the day, but I think it's really inappropriate to sideline the literal face of the franchise in a game about his arch enemy's takeover of the planet to focus on a secondary character and a new villain.

If this was a spin off about Shadow, fine. But it's a Sonic anniversary title, and I think that should be respected at the very least.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

I know this is down to personal preference at the end of the day, but I think it's really inappropriate to sideline the literal face of the franchise in a game about his arch enemy's takeover of the planet to focus on a secondary character and a new villain.

If this was a spin off about Shadow, fine. But it's a Sonic anniversary title, and I think that should be respected at the very least

Sonic is the main character of this franchise but he's not the only character the fans love. 

[StaticMania]

18 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic should not be a secondary character in a game that's ostensibly about him.

If Sonic needs any other comparisons to Dragon Ball, this ain't one of the good ones.

[Wraith]

Sonic was only not the center of attention for one spinoff and one main game in 2005-2006 but you'll be damn sure we'll be hearing about how much of a mistake it was for the rest of our lives.

It wasn't enough that Secret Rings, Black Knight, Unleashed, Colors Gens, and Lost World are all focused on his psychology, temperament, philosophy or some summation of why he's great. Let's continue brow-beating and finger wagging about how he's the main character every time someone suggests a subplot.

[PhoenixtheJackal]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I know this is down to personal preference at the end of the day, but I think it's really inappropriate to sideline the literal face of the franchise in a game about his arch enemy's takeover of the planet to focus on a secondary character and a new villain.

If this was a spin off about Shadow, fine. But it's a Sonic anniversary title, and I think that should be respected at the very least.

I like Sonic, but he's basically been the only character in games since Unleashed, and no one else gets love in the 3D games, except spin-offs, and it would've been more of an Anniversary if more characters got love, the 2 adventure games have a decent amount of playable characters, so if there was like the main game, Episode Shadow being more about Infinite and Shadows relationship, and like an Episode Infinite where Pre Mask Infinite was playable or What Infinite did after his loss would feel more like an anniversary cuz it has multiple stories like the Adventure games, and having Shadow have more than a few cutscenes, and Stuff

[Kuzu]

14 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic is the main character of this franchise but he's not the only character the fans love. 

I understand that, but I said he was the face, not just the main character. If it's not a game about Sonic, fine. I didn't mind it in Shadow's game because that dealt with issues that weren't relevant to Sonic at all. It wouldn't make sense for him to have a prominent role there.

But this is an anniversary title, a literal celebration of the franchise as a whole, so yes, I do feel that Sonic, as the main representation of the series, should be the center of it and not a (admittedly very popular) secondary character.

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic was only not the center of attention for one spinoff and one main game in 2005-2006 but you'll be damn sure we'll be hearing about how much of a mistake it was for the rest of our lives.

It wasn't enough that Secret Rings, Black Knight, Unleashed, Colors Gens, and Lost World are all focused on his psychology, temperament, philosophy or some summation of why he's great. Let's continue brow-beating and finger wagging about how he's the main character every time someone suggests a subplot.

You trying to strawman people isn't going to help your case at all.

 

 

Fuck man, I love Shadow and I do think he deserves better. I've gone on record multiple times saying that I love him. But that doesn't mean Sonic's role shouldn't be respected either.

[StaticMania]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic was only not the center of attention for one spinoff and one main game in 2005-2006 but you'll be damn sure we'll be hearing about how much of a mistake it was for the rest of our lives.

The impact of such screw-ups just leave such a mark...

It's a deep one too, so deep that neither SEGA or the fans can simply ignore it.

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I understand that, but I said he was the face, not just the main character. If it's not a game about Sonic, fine. I didn't mind it in Shadow's game because that dealt with issues that weren't relevant to Sonic at all. It wouldn't make sense for him to have a prominent role there.

But this is an anniversary title, a literal celebration of the franchise as a whole, so yes, I do feel that Sonic, as the main representation of the series, should be the center of it and not a (admittedly very popular) secondary character.

Infinite being tied to Shaodw doesn't do anything to harm any potential Sonic or Eggman friction though. It might actually be a good idea to get him out of the way. 

And the "anniversary" distinction is just a label. Sonic Riders is also an anniversary title. It doesn't come with any special obligation that other Sonic games don't already have. 

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You trying to strawman people isn't going to help your case at all.

Are you going to respond to that post or nah?

 

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

The impact of such screw-ups just leave such a mark...

It's a deep one too, so deep that neither SEGA or the fans can simply ignore it.

Letting such mistakes color the series and discussion around it 5 years afterward is ridiculous. 10 years later and it's laughable.

At year 15 it's pathetic. Get it together yall. Move on. 

[StaticMania]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Letting such mistakes color the series and discussion around it 5 years afterward is ridiculous. 10 years later and it's laughable.

At year 15 it's pathetic. Get it together yall. Move on.

I'm not being as serious here,  not a fan of that kind of mindset myself.

Mostly due to repetitive points...people like to bring up Nex Gen a lot.

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, PhoenixtheJackal said:

I like Sonic, but he's basically been the only character in games since Unleashed, and no one else gets love in the 3D games, except spin-offs, and it would've been more of an Anniversary if more characters got love, the 2 adventure games have a decent amount of playable characters, so if there was like the main game, Episode Shadow being more about Infinite and Shadows relationship, and like an Episode Infinite where Pre Mask Infinite was playable or What Infinite did after his loss would feel more like an anniversary cuz it has multiple stories like the Adventure games, and having Shadow have more than a few cutscenes, and Stuff

I'm fine with Shadow having his own campaign dealing with Infinite while Sonic deals with Eggman, and then they converge in a final story. Sonic is still a prominent character in the Adventure games, even as other characters have their own subplots going on, and Adventure 2 is specifically about his rivalry with Shadow. 

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Infinite being tied to Shaodw doesn't do anything to harm any potential Sonic or Eggman friction though. It might actually be a good idea to get him out of the way. 

And the "anniversary" distinction is just a label. Sonic Riders is also an anniversary title. It doesn't come with any special obligation that other Sonic games don't already have. 

Are you going to respond to that post or nah?

 

 

Like I said, if Shadow has an entirely separate campaign while Sonic deals with Eggman, fine. That's acceptable. I just disagree with the notion that Sonic should take a backseat in this game.

And being a mainstream title, it comes with much bigger expectations than a simple spin off would like Riders. That's why more people focus on 06 than Riders despite both being out in the same year,. 

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

I'm not being as serious here,  not a fan of that kind of mindset myself.

Mostly due to repetitive points...people like to bring up Nex Gen a lot.

Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. 

 

Its not that 06 should be ignored; its that the series learned all of the wrong lessons from it and never addressed any of the issues with the game itself, and just kind of swept them under the rug. 

[PhoenixtheJackal]

13 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Letting such mistakes color the series and discussion around it 5 years afterward is ridiculous. 10 years later and it's laughable.

At year 15 it's pathetic. Get it together yall. Move on. 

Thinking about it there's kinda a point, 06 was rushed and thus was broken had multiple stories, everyone was saying I don't wanna play as Sonic's stupid friends, most games after that were just Sonic, Sonic Boom originally was Sonic Synergy had so much ambition was being developed for Ps4 and Xbone, then Sega Signed a deal with Nintendo forced the developers to make the game for Wii U which was incompatible with the engine they were using, Sega still said rush together a Wii U Game, and it was a boring game, with Comic Sans in cutscenes, sounds like the same issue as 06, and Forces feels rushed even if  it wasn't

[StaticMania]

Quote

Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. 

This is mostly what I mean...

It's time to harden up and focus on SEGA's new mistakes, the old one's are just chocolate frosting on top of what they do now.

Quote

...with Comic Sans in cutscenes...

I didn't realize SA2 was a non-SEGA developed Wii U game...

[PhoenixtheJackal]

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

This is mostly what I mean...

It's time to harden up and focus on SEGA's new mistakes, the old one's are just chocolate frosting on top of what they do now.

I didn't realize SA2 was a non-SEGA developed Wii U game...

I specifically said Sonic Boom

[Kuzu]

I know people are tired of hearing about Shadow and 06, but the reason why we never stop hearing about them is because the series has yet to actually address the problems that they brought to the series. They still have no idea how to utilize additional characters in a way that isn't intrusive without just writing them out altogether, and they still have no idea how to actually write a decent plot. About the only thing that the games have improved on was the gameplay, and even that's debatable from some people. Until this series actually addresses the elephant in the room, we're never going to be able to move on from them and they will continue to cast a shadow over the series until then. 

 

And no, the solution is to not bury our heads in the sand and just pretend like they never happened. 

[StaticMania]

4 minutes ago, PhoenixtheJackal said:

I specifically said Sonic Boom

That is true...

Quote

And no, the solution is to not bury our heads in the sand and just pretend like they never happened. 

Then at least only bring them up when they're relevant.

[Wraith]

Problems inherent to 3D Sonic nowadays either started before Soinc 06(Automation, shallow gameplay) or started as a result of trying not to be like Sonic 06. There's actually not much to gain from bringing it up all the time. Especially if it's just to try and stifle people from brainstorming on a forum that's supposed to be fun. 

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Then at least only bring them up when they're relevant.

The subject we were talking about was having the primary character of the series reduced to a secondary role in a game celebrating his own series; the only comparison to make is literally 06 as that's the only other game that did that. 

[PhoenixtheJackal]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I know people are tired of hearing about Shadow and 06, but the reason why we never stop hearing about them is because the series has yet to actually address the problems that they brought to the series. They still have no idea how to utilize additional characters in a way that isn't intrusive without just writing them out altogether, and they still have no idea how to actually write a decent plot. About the only thing that the games have improved on was the gameplay, and even that's debatable from some people. Until this series actually addresses the elephant in the room, we're never going to be able to move on from them and they will continue to cast a shadow over the series until then. 

 

And no, the solution is to not bury our heads in the sand and just pretend like they never happened. 

Plot is irrelevant if the writing is good, Sonic and Chip's friendship in Unleashed was great, Colours I thought had a really enjoyable story, and I liked the story of the 2 good Riders games, the 2 Rush Games had really good stories, they didn't have mind blowing plots but good writing, what Sonic needs is Sega to stop Rushing and just take time on a game and look at the well received 3d games and figure out why they're so loved and then learn

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Problems inherent to 3D Sonic nowadays either started before Soinc 06(Automation, shallow gameplay) or started as a result of trying not to be like Sonic 06. There's actually not much to gain from bringing it up all the time. Especially if it's just to try and stifle people from brainstorming on a forum that's supposed to be fun. 

Well yea, but those problems became most apparent in 06, and the later problems are in direct response to it. There's nothing wrong with brainstorming and coming up with new ideas, but it's also important to not fall into old pitfalls because we're tired of hearing about it. 

If Forces was structured like an actual Adventure game, with dual scenarios focusing on Sonic & Shadow dealing with Eggman and Infinite respectively, while still maintaining the polish of later games. I would have loved the shit out of it, and I think it would have done a lot to erase the stain that 06 made by showing that those elements weren't inherently bad.

2 minutes ago, PhoenixtheJackal said:

Plot is irrelevant if the writing is good, Sonic and Chip's friendship in Unleashed was great, Colours I thought had a really enjoyable story, and I liked the story of the 2 good Riders games, the 2 Rush Games had really good stories, they didn't have mind blowing plots but good writing, what Sonic needs is Sega to stop Rushing and just take time on a game and look at the well received 3d games and figure out why they're so loved and then learn

Story is kind of subjective; but the gameplay is certainly the most divisive part of those games. The problem is, Sega has no idea what makes this series tick, and fans are pretty divided on what exactly are the problems that need to be addressed whether it's the writing quality or the gameplay. We're basically up a creek without a paddle, and nobody knows where to actually go.