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PhoenixtheJackal

Why is everyone taking Infinite Seriously, a Discussion about Infinite's character, and why he's in my top 5 characters.

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5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

If Forces was structured like an actual Adventure game, with dual scenarios focusing on Sonic & Shadow dealing with Eggman and Infinite respectively, while still maintaining the polish of later games. I would have loved the shit out of it, and I think it would have done a lot to erase the stain that 06 made by showing that those elements weren't inherently bad.

I agree. I'd just add that the first step to proving that those elements weren't inherently bad would be to stop talking about them in such hushed tones whenever they come up.

If we agree that Sonic 06, Sonic Forces etc. aren't entirely worthless then I hope we eventually stop talking about them like they are. 

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It's been, what, 15 years? I don't think '06 is relevant because all we've gotten since then is an idiotic over-correction where the focus is solely on Sonic and everyone else is just in the background. Forces is just a continuation of that over-correction rather than repeating '06's missteps (the only thing I'd really relate it to '06 on are aspects of Infinite's design and the tone), and it seems to do things that were inherent problems with most of the 3D games that Wraith already pointed out like the automation.

Like, what are we gaining talking about these games when all we've seen is Sega's unwillingness to try anything that isn't safe and marketable to people who don't really care about a lot of things most active Sonic fans do.

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I feel it's important that we need to start learning how to divide the pros and cons from these games so we can understand the things that we need to keep, and the things that need to be left behind. Anytime we're talking about these games, we talk about them in absolutes when there's something to learn from each game, even the bad ones as much people don't want to admit it. 

Yes, even 06 has things we can learn from if we can be civil enough to discuss what they actually were instead of people treating the mere idea of referencing them as bad. Most of us are adults here, I think we can do that much at least. 

3 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

It's been, what, 15 years? I don't think '06 is relevant because all we've gotten since then is an idiotic over-correction where the focus is solely on Sonic and everyone else is just in the background. Forces is just a continuation of that over-correction rather than repeating '06's missteps (the only thing I'd really relate it to '06 on are aspects of Infinite's design and the tone), and it seems to do things that were inherent problems with most of the 3D games that Wraith already pointed out like the automation.

Like, what are we gaining talking about these games when all we've seen is Sega's unwillingness to try anything that isn't safe and marketable to people who don't really care about a lot of things most active Sonic fans do.

Well like I said, the over-correction is a direct response to 06; whether we like it or not, it's still influencing the direction of the series to this very day, hence why we keep referencing it lol. 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well yea, but those problems became most apparent in 06, and the later problems are in direct response to it. There's nothing wrong with brainstorming and coming up with new ideas, but it's also important to not fall into old pitfalls because we're tired of hearing about it. 

If Forces was structured like an actual Adventure game, with dual scenarios focusing on Sonic & Shadow dealing with Eggman and Infinite respectively, while still maintaining the polish of later games. I would have loved the shit out of it, and I think it would have done a lot to erase the stain that 06 made by showing that those elements weren't inherently bad.

Story is kind of subjective; but the gameplay is certainly the most divisive part of those games. The problem is, Sega has no idea what makes this series tick, and fans are pretty divided on what exactly are the problems that need to be addressed whether it's the writing quality or the gameplay. We're basically up a creek without a paddle, and nobody knows where to actually go.

I don't know the best course, because at the rate it's going Modern Sonic will die and it'll just be classic (I don't hate the classic series or anything, but I like the 3d Sonic games more, I do like Mania, the advance games etc.), but what is needed is for one Sonic Fans to stop sucking lol, but also it needs to look at the Adventure Games, Unleashed, Generations, and Colours see why they're loved Adventure was the freedom of Gameplay, and the Chao Garden, the 3 good 3d Boost games are generally loved for the Speed and Exileration of the style, Generations is loved for it's Level design and all the different pathways in levels with the dash of nostalgia, Colours made Water interesting instead of just slowing you down, and dropping the Gimicks just boosting, and for why certain aspects are hated, in the Adventure Games all the characters except for Sonic and Shadow had slow Gimicks, Searching for emeralds, being in a Mech, etc. Unleashed had the Wearhog a God of War knock off that was about precision platforming and the battle theme every 5 minutes, Colours has too many 2d sections that aren't super good some are but some aren't, Generations is basically what caused every game to have green Hill and looking back 2d Sonic isn't super great in Generations it's not a Chore but it's not overwhelmingly fun, and mostly universally hated stuff 06 was a broken mess where everyone controls terribly and are slow, Shadow ruined Shadow's character, and has really tedius missions and 11 endings all except 1 are non cannon and you have to get all 10 endings to get the true ending, and it has bad level design, Boom is hated because it's a really boring slow Colectathon game, and Forces isn't exactly hated but everyone agrees it has really boring level design. And if Sega addressed this stuff and tried to combine the good aspects with a good amount of time I think it would be a good game, but they always seem to remove and add the wrong things, instead of learning what's bad about said things

Edit: And good aspects of Shadow is I think the controls were a Step Up from Heroes, and like it or not the Gunplay is really fun and well implemented IMO, 06 is really hard to salvage not because it has no redeemable qualities because it's clearly unfinished so until all the 06 remakes are finished it's hard to know what to pull from it, actually making the Humans fit in with Eggman is something to pull, and Boom was trying something but poorly implemented it

Edited by PhoenixtheJackal
To add positives to the hated games

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14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well like I said, the over-correction is a direct response to 06; whether we like it or not, it's still influencing the direction of the series to this very day, hence why we keep referencing it lol. 

That's fair, it just feels like a dead horse where there's nothing productive coming out of it anymore and I've been in this fandom long enough that I'm just tired of hearing about it. I don't really see Sega playing it so safe as some ongoing response to a 15 year old game, I just see it like they don't care because they've worked on a formula to just make Sonic as inoffensive and forgettable as possible. Maybe I am wrong and that is part of an ongoing response though.

 

I do agree maybe the start is to stop talking about them in absolutes like you and Wraith are saying.

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6 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

That's fair, it just feels like a dead horse where there's nothing productive coming out of it anymore and I've been in this fandom long enough that I'm just tired of hearing about it. I don't really see Sega playing it so safe as some ongoing response to a 15 year old game, I just see it like they don't care because they've worked on a formula to just make Sonic as inoffensive and forgettable as possible. Maybe I am wrong and that is part of an ongoing response though.

 

I do agree maybe the start is to stop talking about them in absolutes like you and Wraith are saying.

I think it's important for Sonic Team to look at every bad Game, to learn why it was bad, to learn even if it's been 15 years , 6, 16, 24 (Sonic Blast), etc. to give Sonic a Better Future

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I've always ironically loved Infinite. He's so edgy that you can't take him seriously. He's like the embodiment of the ow the edge meme. His backstory is so ridiculously over the top that I just gotta love it. I do have to admit that he has an unironically cool design. Overall Infinite's an enjoyable character. Just not unironically.

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4 hours ago, PhoenixtheJackal said:

All of the Zeti were so one note, Infinite is kinda one note but he's actually interesting at least,

Uh, yeah, for the most part. Zavok is the closest to being a character in his own right and some like Zor have hints of material that could be expanded on, but yeah.

In what way?

4 hours ago, PhoenixtheJackal said:

and I love his theme so much, but I just really like that he's basically a 12 year old

Uh huh... 😐

 

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I found him moving on from Shadow one of the biggest missed opportunities actually. Him and Sonic have no real personal connection besides just being the villain and hero respectively; it's not a very interesting relationship.

Fair enough.

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

With him and Shadow, there's actually some pathos there. But I understand that it takes the focus off Sonic, and that was one of the biggest criticisms of 06 that Shadow had more of a personal connection to the plot than Sonic did. But then I question why even give Shadow that personal connection at all if it wasn't going to go anywhere.

Because it's a DLC starring Shadow and that's just how those old stories worked.

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37 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh geez, can we NOT have another dragged out argument that goes nowhere but away from the topic?

Sorry about that, I didn't mean for it to turn into a discussion of Modern Sonic just, about Infinite, so yeah sorry, just like I just really was like oh if it was written like this other game it be good and other people did the same and it's a thing so super sorry

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33 minutes ago, PhoenixtheJackal said:

Sorry about that, I didn't mean for it to turn into a discussion of Modern Sonic just, about Infinite, so yeah sorry, just like I just really was like oh if it was written like this other game it be good and other people did the same and it's a thing so super sorry

Don't worry, it's just we had this happen in a different thread several days ago and with one of the same people too.

It is more relevant here admittedly, but you know. Just don't want things to get too out of hand.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Don't worry, it's just we had this happen in a different thread several days ago and with one of the same people too.

It is more relevant here admittedly, but you know. Just don't want things to get too out of hand.

Luckily it seemed mostly like a reasonable discussion going nowhere lol

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6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Silver lining: I believe we are at crossroads where if sega wants this 3d thing to be a thing. They need to move past this over correction and I think they kinda understand.

 

I made a post for this so this discussion doesn't completely go off the rails, but I think they're doing alright Forces wasn't great but it's far from bad

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It (3D Sonic) needs someone who can hold a game, series, to one direction that builds on what came before solidly rather than doing too much at once (see Forces, which really suffered from how the game had to fit being both a Generations 2 and it being an obvious pandering to the Adventure fans or Westerners even with its little shown Eggman Won scenario) . And has a solid and decently planned out vision for what is and isn't in the setting (unlike Iizuka who says silly stuff like the moon only showing one side or Sonic coming from another planet).

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17 minutes ago, Almar said:

It (3D Sonic) needs someone who can hold a game, series, to one direction that builds on what came before solidly rather than doing too much at once (see Forces, which really suffered from how the game had to fit being both a Generations 2 and it being an obvious pandering to the Adventure fans or Westerners even with its little shown Eggman Won scenario) . And has a solid and decently planned out vision for what is and isn't in the setting (unlike Iizuka who says silly stuff like the moon only showing one side or Sonic coming from another planet).

Rumor has it it actually started off as a spinoff around the Avatar system before being adjusted to by the Sonic Main series anniversary title.

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If Episode Shadow was longer and spanned the whole story from Shadow's POV giving closure to what we got I don't think there'd be a problem. Sonic's story also starts with Infinite, and I thought he and Infinite had a good dynamic considering. That'd give him a connection to all the main characters - Sonic was defeated by him, Shadow sort of created him in a way, and the Avatar was frightened by him. He does play more of an active role than Eggman but that makes sense if this is meant to be his first appearance like characters such as Silver, Blaze, Shadow etc. before him.

Erm. Classic Sonic is connected to Infinite because of the Phantom Ruby because of Mania? Yeah, we all know he's shoehorned in here.

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51 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Rumor has it it actually started off as a spinoff around the Avatar system before being adjusted to by the Sonic Main series anniversary title.

I thought it started as Classic, Modern, and Boom Sonic together as a celebration of the anniversary, but changed their mind cuz Boom (game) wasn't received well

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3 minutes ago, PhoenixtheJackal said:

I thought it started as Classic, Modern, and Boom Sonic together as a celebration of the anniversary, but changed their mind cuz Boom (game) wasn't received well

That was another theory due to Sonic team having the three depicted together at some convention years beforehand.

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7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That was another theory due to Sonic team having the three depicted together at some convention years beforehand.

That makes the most sense as to why Classic Sonic was there if Avatar was Boom Sonic all 3 Sonics would be all like "Aww Yeah this is Happening", except classic who happily bounce, then Drop Dash to Show Modern Sonic hey I took the Air Dash but ground

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4 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

Erm. Classic Sonic is connected to Infinite because of the Phantom Ruby because of Mania? Yeah, we all know he's shoehorned in here.

My man literally does a " poochie returns to his home planet"

 

 

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I dunno. I probably would have been able to find Infinite humorously edgy and entertaining on his own had I remained oblivious to his backstory, because it just destroyed any chance I may have had of taking him seriously in any light after I witnessed it. Someone as hilariously try-hard as him would have worked better balanced out as someone who could also back it up by feeling as genuine a threat as they could to the characters in a game like Sonic Forces where the plot IS supposed to be based around the most intense and genuine a threat you can get.

However, it didn't really matter to me how strong he was or what he did to help Eggman take over the world after witnessing those scenes in Episode Shadow. 

God, it was just... so embarrassing and pathetic. I can't stand looking at him anymore. He's such a joke. Say what you will about the Zeti, but goddamn did that scene of them taking over Eggman's shit and trying to murder the dude feel intense. At least Zavok wanting to turn Tails into a robot felt a bit inspired compared to using the Phantom Ruby to make weird giant slug versions of himself or to just make himself bigger. Plus, the only mopey bullshit you got from them was from Zor, and that was literally supposed to be a joke. I can take him seriously as a villain because the game felt more self-aware about what they were doing with him. 

Funny or not, self-aware or not, I can't take him seriously as a villain now. If he shows up again, he's gonna come off like the missing 4th member of Team Rocket unless they overhaul him something fierce.

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5 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I dunno. I probably would have been able to find Infinite humorously edgy and entertaining on his own had I remained oblivious to his backstory, because it just destroyed any chance I may have had of taking him seriously in any light after I witnessed it. Someone as hilariously try-hard as him would have worked better balanced out as someone who could also back it up by feeling as genuine a threat as they could to the characters in a game like Sonic Forces where the plot IS supposed to be based around the most intense and genuine a threat you can get.

However, it didn't really matter to me how strong he was or what he did to help Eggman take over the world after witnessing those scenes in Episode Shadow. 

God, it was just... so embarrassing and pathetic. I can't stand looking at him anymore. He's such a joke. Say what you will about the Zeti, but goddamn did that scene of them taking over Eggman's shit and trying to murder the dude feel intense. At least Zavok wanting to turn Tails into a robot felt a bit inspired compared to using the Phantom Ruby to make weird giant slug versions of himself or to just make himself bigger. Plus, the only mopey bullshit you got from them was from Zor, and that was literally supposed to be a joke. I can take him seriously as a villain because the game felt more self-aware about what they were doing with him. 

Funny or not, self-aware or not, I can't take him seriously as a villain now. If he shows up again, he's gonna come off like the missing 4th member of Team Rocket unless they overhaul him something fierce.

what was embarrassing and pathetic specifically

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26 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I'm not weak. I'm not. I'M NOT WEAK! rrrrRRRRAAAAAAUAAFHFHFGH!

That made me laugh so hard hearing Liam O'Brien going hardcore with such a bad line was so funny, bless his heart he tried his best but yeah

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