Abortion

[The Conductor]

So, I recently went with a friend of mines to the hospital while she was having an abortion.

Later that day, I checked on her Bebo and she had TONES of messages calling her a murderer ect. And I defended her, I'm prochoice and think that if a woman doesn't feel capable of taking care of a child then she should be allowed to termanate the pregnancy, after all as the Bible says; If a man does not get his share of happiness……then I say a baby born dead is better off. It does that baby no good to be born…….It never sees the light of day or knows what life is like, but at least it has found rest.

But I am curiouis what do you guys think of Abortion?

[Blue Blood]

I'll say this and then sit back in order to avoid the potential war that'll break out:

Nothing wrong the idea of abortion. Nothing wrong with it at all. I think there should be stricter laws regarding when you can have it done in the UK (they let you do it even when the is old enough to foetus feel pain), but ultimately any woman should have the right to have one. Of course, it shouldn't be a substiute for contraception, but it's something that has enabled many people to live their life how they want. If you don't approve of abortion, then don't have one. Respect other peoples beliefs. Try and talk them round once if you feel you should, but otherwise keep your noses out.

[Tornado]

I feel Roe v. Wade should be overturned, but I have no problem with abortion by itself. I totally support the women's right to choose.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Tornado

[Random Rhyme]

I would hate to see a choice like abortion be taken lightly. At least think about it, like REALLY think about it before you decide to go that route. Don't just jump to the choice of abortion.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Shade737

[Mollfie]

It's her body, and her choice.

I do however think that 24 weeks to far, far too late. That's a baby. Just google '24 week fetus' and look at the images. I would link to an image by I think some people might find some images upsetting so it's your call.

I also think that girls, young girls, should be made much more aware of what an abortion actualy is, what they really do, and how it affects the woman afterwards. I know some girls who see it as a quick fix, when it really isn't and it can really screw you up.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Mollfie

[Nemain]

I'll say this and then sit back in order to avoid the potential war that'll break out:

Nothing wrong the idea of abortion. Nothing wrong with it at all. I think there should be stricter laws regarding when you can have it done in the UK (they let you do it even when the is old enough to foetus feel pain), but ultimately any woman should have the right to have one. Of course, it shouldn't be a substiute for contraception, but it's something that has enabled many people to live their life how they want. If you don't approve of abortion, then don't have one. Respect other peoples beliefs. Try and talk them round once if you feel you should, but otherwise keep your noses out.

This is true. In short and without going into the terms of it, the gestation limit for abortion in the UK is TWENTY-FOUR WEEKS. The cut off point for premature babies being considered viable in the UK is 22 weeks. So at the moment in this country women are allowed to abort what by medical standards is a VIABLE BABY, not just a "foetus". The age limit needs to be lowered, at least to below 22 weeks if not lower still, unless there is a drastic medical reason that suddenly happens past the cut off date.

I am all for pro choice. Women have the right to decide what to do with their body. It is them that have to go through the pain of childbirth and the stress of the baby on the body. However, there must be a very good reason for the abortion. Abortion is -not- a form of widely available birth control, it is something that must only be done with very good (preferably) medical reasoning. I will not go into those medical reasons as each case varies so wildly, but in short if the kid isn't going to be able to survive after being born or the mother is likely to die if the pregnancy goes on, then those for example would be good reasons to terminate. Sadly in my area of the UK it seems like it has become an acceptable form of birth control, a throwaway thought, and that is wrong. Women, particularly the younger girls, are not prepared for the emotional drain an abortion is. Abortion should never be taken lightly and unfortunately all too often it is.

[CapnCloudchaser]

I'm split between pro-life and pro-choice. The idealist in me is pro-life, but the more cynical part of me is pro-choice.

I kinda believe that there are only certain circumstances where abortion should be allowed, such as medical reasons (Relating to either the child or the mother), under-age pregnancy and rape. Everything else is just carelessness in my opinion. That is to say, that people should be more careful with their contraceptives if they don't want children and know they will only end up aborting. Yes, mistakes can happen, but only to the stupid. My 16 year old niece had a daughter because she was ill whilst on the pill. Was she unfortunate or stupid? Personally, if I had even the slightest doubt that my contraceptives were not working properly, then I would use two methods or different methods. That may sound harsh, but why end a potential life just because you made a mistake?

On the other hand, we have way too many people on the planet as it is anyway. Why bring a life into the world that you know will be miserable, especially when there are so many homeless miserable children as it is? I also believe that overpopulation is a big problem, but there isn't that much we can do about, as the population always needs to keep growing in order to support the elderly and the economy :\

[Rusty Spy]

To be honest, there needs to be a very good reason for abortion, medical reasons and the like. One that, if the pregnancy were to go on, could threaten the life of either the baby or the mother or was a result of some form of abuse, i.e rape.

If it was an accident, a result of carelessness between two teens, then the baby should at least be put up for adoption as early as possible if the parent(s) couldn't care for the baby under any circumstances, or if the baby would be too much on the family. There's no need to abort a baby when there are many more solutions to such a problem, especially when dealing with such a heavy issue like such. But if a dangerous situation calls for such, than the appropriate action should be taken.

As for laws about abortion, it'd be fair to set up a criteria for women to meet in order to be allowed abortion, i.e if continuing the pregnancy could put parent or child in danger, or if other methods such as adoption and the like were completely out of the question.

[Roarey Raccoon]

The problem with the abortion issue, in a legal sense, is how swamped it is with ethical beliefs. The facts should be the basis of any legal decisions regarding abortion. The fact is that a fetus lacks a consciousness and an ability to feel pain so an abortion isn't the taking of a human life but the preventing of one. Once you go beyond this it becomes a very personal issue, something that should be tackled on a case-by-case basis. You're not going to fit all these women and partnerships with their multitudes of circumstances and beliefs under one blanket and expect anything positive to come from it. Whether you are for or against it is up to you, but what you think about the issue should only matter if you are the one having the baby. Otherwise you're sticking your nose where it doesn't belong and getting in the way of peoples lives.

I wouldn't be so supportive of abortion if children were always looked after when they were born, but we can't even protect them or serve their needs, so creating a set of circumstances which ensures even more children are born into a world in which their parents don't want/can't look after them then it's just making things worse. Abortion certainly isn't a nice thing by any standards, but it's better than making more unwanted children.

Oh and I really do object to calling the anti-abortion stance "pro-life". It's only in favour of women giving birth and once that has happened everybody fucks off and leaves the mother to deal with it. Sounds more like "pro-arrogance" to me.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Roarz

[Vasco]

Oh and I really do object to calling the anti-abortion stance "pro-life". It's only in favour of women giving birth and once that has happened everybody fucks off and leaves the mother to deal with it. Sounds more like "pro-arrogance" to me.

My thoughts exactly. It's as though you support death if you want women to have that choice.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

More importantly than levelling an opinion, I have to kudos Omega on the topic sub-title choice. LOL.

I'll confess to being a cold-hearted bastard and not principally concerned about either the mother or the fetus-child's wellbeing in this case. My pro-unborn-baby-murder stance derives simply from the fact that the world is facing overpopulation and food and land are growing scarce. One less baby means one less person I might have to barge out of the way during a bread riot 20 years down the road.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Dr. Good Girl]

Abortion is a personal choice and I would never judge anyone for doing it. People are always debating about this subject, and are trying to rid of abortion. Even if abortion is illegal, it will still happen. It's not something that is ever going to stop. Women will just go straight to back alley abortions if they have too or if they're just that desperate, which will risk the mother dying too.

The world population now is 6.4 Billion. In 2050 it will rise to an extreme 9 billion. That's triple the amount of humans who will constantly eat, and drink, and pollute. The earth is already over populated anyway. I know I'm putting this kind of bluntly...

And don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of killing babies, especially if they're at the stage of developing nerves. But I'm still not sure how much pain they really do feel in the process or if they do feel any. This is kind of why we need to use protection, and condoms. That can help a lot.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

The world population now is 6.4 Billion. In 2050 it will rise to an extreme 9 billion. That's triple the amount of humans who will constantly eat, and drink, and pollute. The earth is already over populated anyway. I know I'm putting this kind of bluntly... And don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of killing babies, especially if they're at the stage of developing nerves. But I'm still not sure how much pain they really do feel in the process or if they do feel any. This is kind of why we need to use protection, and condoms. That can help a lot.

...but failing that, kill them before they can fight back during a 2050s bread riot.

Ahhh, the ethics of expediency. You are truly the best kind of ethics.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Oh and I really do object to calling the anti-abortion stance "pro-life". It's only in favour of women giving birth and once that has happened everybody fucks off and leaves the mother to deal with it. Sounds more like "pro-arrogance" to me.

^This.

Honestly, if you're going to help raise the baby, then by all means support pro-life. But if you don't care about the mother and child after birth, and most of us don't unless we going to actually take care of the newborn, then why would you be so worked up in an abortion. Further more, why is it any of their business in the first place? I don't see THEM with an accidental/un-ready pregnacy, and I'm willing to bet many of them would see differently if they were in their shoes.

...I don't even want to know what it's like in the first place.

But at the end of the day, if it's not your body, it's not your choice. You don't have any right to tell someone what they should do, or have any control over their body, so despite what other horrors she could do to her self, she's free to treat her body however she wants.

[Pelly <3's U]

I'm pretty much pro-choice all the way.

I don't really believe there should be a ton of limits and restrictions placed on them. A time limit one seems fair to me but when you start getting into the whole 'is your reason good enough to justify you making a decision that will hugely affect your life,' things are getting much much to black and white. You are not the person having the abortion and you have no idea the circumstances around it no matter how much you want to think you do.

Also one of the silliest things I have ever heard, and I honestly have no idea how an idea like this sticks (well propaganda), is that whole abortion being used as birth control argument. Ignoring the finacial aspects of this, even in places where there are high multiple abortion rates (such as NYC) studies have shown that this is mainly among the poorest and most uneducated people who often have little access to contreception anyways (plus not to mention the highest rates of sexual assault). Even if someone does have multiple abortions it doesn't mean they weren't using any forms of contraception as no forum of contraception is 100%. Plus even with constant contraception a woman with an average sex life is almost garenteed to have at least one accidental pregnancy as no BC method is 100% as of now. The whole argument to me seems stupid though, if there was a woman with a consistent sex life and no other form of birth control she would statisticly be having 1-2 abortions per year to control her pregnancies....which is not what studies show at all.

Anyways though despite everything I've said in the past paragraph (and I have a lot more I could say about it with the amount of research I've done on the subject) I think I should be very clear in stating my own personal views. I do not in fact care if a woman is getting abortions as a form of birth control, or getting them because of rape, or incest, or because her life is at risk, or because she doesn't want to raise a child, or just because she feels like it. To me I have no desire to judge anyone for whatever reasons they decide to get an abortion, I still say safe accesable abortions should be available to all women.

Of course in actuality I care far more about underlying social problems that cause most of these 'hot button' issues then the actual issues themselves.

[Sarge]

I had to get my chuckles from the subtitle of this topic. Nice one, buddy XD.

I agree completely with Roarey's "pro-arrogance" comment. I also want to add that the day women cannot make the choice to do what they want with their bodies is the day I begin to lobby a law against people smoking and drinking. Sure, it doesn't affect me at all, but fucking dammit, I HAVE A GOOD CAUSE AND I WANT TO FEEL GOOD ABOUT MYSELF!

If you couldn't guess, I would be roped into the "pro-choice" group. Not sure what the big deal honestly is. I've always viewed a the featous at nothing more than a parasite, feeding off the mother's body until it can fight its way into the world.

I had a lot more to say on the subject, but honestly, until some gun-hoe zealot gets in here, its going to be a bunch of "pro-choice" people agreeing with each other. I'll save the fun stuff for a debate .

[Nemain]

I must admit to being rather conservative in my first post, treading the water if you like. After reading some more of these replies, I feel more able to share some of my views in more depth.

The overpopulation problem is a very real one. Part of my studies as an environmental geologists is physical resource management. That includes stuff like supply and demand of essential things to live across countries and where the problems like. The projected population of 9 billion in less than a hundred years is estimated to be us reaching the carrying capacity of the Earth - i.e. the number of humans the land can support before there are shortages. What this means is sure, we will still have our supermarkets and stuff, but expect to see a LOT more empty shelves before delivery days as there will be proportionately a lot more sales even in a region such as Europe where the birth rate is notably lower than in Asia. In areas that are not as developed but with high populations, for example India, there will be widespread famines and water shortages. The food and water availability in these places is already critical and the rise in populations there due to traditions of large families is going to push them over the edge very quickly.

What may surprise you is that overpopulation is already a known problem in Britain. You may think "Oh, but there's no shortages of food or water!", but you're only half right. There is a map by region produced by the water authorities that shows the water surplus or defecit of every region. What that means basically is how much water is used compared to how much is input each year. The north and Scotland have a large water surplus, the midlands and Wales a small surplus, the south west is break even and the south east has a moderate defecit. The London area is the driest in England and sees the least rainfall yet has the greatest demand for water, and already this is causing problems let alone with more population turning up either from ourselves or from the huge net immigration figures per year. There are plans to pump water from the north to the south in the making, and I don't even want to begin to think of how much that would cost... Surely that money is better spent on managing the resources we already have and modifying the old leaky Victorian plumbing systems. Maybe, just maybe, we should start thinking about placing numbers on the amounts of migrants that can come in each year? Immigration alone has increased the population nearly 2 million in the last 10 years. While I am all for immigration and enjoy the freedom Europeans have to move, when a country our size is getting close to a million new people a year with immigration and births it doesn't take someone clever to figure that that's just not going to work much longer...

----

Apologies for the length of that. Overpopulation is a real problem the UK is facing and I just wanted to share a few points I've picked up over my studies. This is another reason that abortion should be allowed and why every woman has the right to a safe and freely available abortion. Why be made to bring a child into a rapidly ever more unsustainable world?

No woman should be judged if she has had an abortion. It takes a lot of courage to go and get one and it's a very emotional affair for most. Just because the pregnancy is unwanted doesn't mean the woman doesn't care. I've supported friends through terminations and the overwhelming emotions are guilt and regret. What would it have been like if it was born? Have I done the right thing? Am I a bad person? It is punishment enough to have to go through such a harrowing experience without the short mindedness of people going LOL YOU MURDERER. I am sure if put in the same position these people wouldn't be as willing to judge.

I also agree that abortion should be available as an option where every other method of contraception has failed. Jangy brings up the valid point that no form of contraception is 100% foolproof. Most are 98-99% effective, so these things can and do happen to people that genuinely try. Even the Pill, one of the most effective forms of contraception, is affected by things like sickness and timing of taking them. Where people have tried to responsibly prevent a pregnancy and still ended up with one, abortion is also an option for these people and that right shouldn't be taken away. Likewise in a poorer area where contraception isn't readily available, abortion is better than an underprepared individual (educationally and emotionally in a lot of ghettos) being stuck with a baby they will struggle to look after financially. What makes me sad though is people that readily have unprotected sex knowing the consequences and see abortion as the easy way out, and that is what happens a lot here. People should at least try to prevent a pregnancy before considering abortion a viable option, but equally if partakers of casual unprotected sex were denied an abortion imagine the numbers of babies that would be born...

Again, I also agree with the point of pro-life not really thinking about the mother. Does pro-life think about the mother once the baby is born? In a situation of an unwanted pregnancy being unable to have an abortion is surely going against the basic rights the mother has when it's her body and the baby is basically a parasite living off said body (yes to the previous poster that pointed that out!)? Sure the baby is fine but the mother has essentially been forced into something she didn't want. What about rape victims, should they be made to keep the baby their attacker fathered? Adoption is an option for unwanted pregnancies, yes, but how harrowing is it to have to go through the ordeals of pregnancy and then just give the baby away? And even then, is there a guarantee it won't just be stuck in care waiting for adoptive parents, or just bounced around foster parents as it grows up? If the unplanned pregnancy is at an early enough stage, termination is the kindest thing for both the baby and mother.

At the end of the day, a mothers choice should never be taken away. She has the right to access abortions freely no matter the reason, and it should be a comfort they are available if all else has failed. Why put the lives of expectant mothers at risk and disallow abortion when desperation will lead to them going to backstreet abortion clinics and getting it done there? Surely the mother's life is worth more than the risk of death from dodgy abortion techniques.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Nemain

[pooshoes]

The abortion debate is one of the most tired and boring discussions ever. This shit has been done to death.

All that ever happens is that people choose which side of the fence they want to stand, then argue about complete metaphysical bullshit like "What constitutes life?" in order justify their point of view. This mostly comes from a moral stand point, which is usually from the 'Killing babies is wrong/OK' pool of thought. All complete bollocks.

Whether abortion should be illegal or not, my opinion is thus:

One of the roles of a national government is to ensure the health and wellbeing of its citizens. If abortion is made illegal, they will be carried out not with the specialised equipment and in the hygienic conditions of a hopstial. They'll be done in a back alley warehouse by some bloke called Dave using a bottle of chloroform and a rusty coathanger. There is the choice of going abroad to get it done, but that's usually hideously expensive. Not exactly what the majority of prospective abortees are looking for. A responsible government would not allow this kinda of shit to happen.

TL;DR - I eat babies.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Pooshoes?

[Agent York]

Personally I think the issue more than abortion is that people need to stop having sex if they are not ready for the potential consequences. On one hand, I support them having a choice. On the other, that kid could of been something, they could of had a life, change some for some people, sure it could of been bad, but that's like not giving someone a chance at life. It's like not giving them a choice, it's us deciding that thanks to the consequences of our own fucking actions they were made, they did nothing wrong, and we just cut them short because they were made by us being stupid.

People are arrogant, I know I am. But what I do know I try to use. I am happy to be alive. I try my best to be me. My younger brother was almost aborted. I love Him more than anything. It's easy to label them off as not human yet, but when reality hits you that these "things" could of grown up into wonderful people, and that we just swapped from them the chance to be something, thanks to our own inconsiderate and selfish actions, that someone really close to you could of never existed thanks to this, it really hits you hard.

People need to accept the consequences of their actions. They need to realize what we're doing and what might happen if we do it, and stop being so selfish and wrapped up in our own thoughts and concerns. No matter how you spin it, you just robbed your own child of their life. Thanks to your actions, they had to pay with their own lives.

I support choice, but I don't support abortion. I support the choice of you having sex that night, cause if you have sex, you might have a kid. Fucking teach these people so we don't treat fetuses as anything but what they are; Our own fucking children.

I might spark something, but I appreciate too man people that are alive. I realize I might be triggering debate here, but I just know how I feel.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Rice Golem

[-Mark-]

I personally don't see a problem with it if it's done very, very early on, when the foetus is barely what one could even consider 'alive'. If it can't feel pain, if it hasn't got formed organs or a brain, then fair enough. If you leave it to a stage where it's practically a fully-formed baby, then no. That is just murder, I'd say.

In fairness, I don't see what excuse many women could have for leaving an abortion that late. They should know by the time they discover their pregnancy whether they actually want and can cope with the baby or not. Admittedly there is a possibility of them changing their mind later on, but then that's a very difficult matter.

[turbojet]

I personally don't care what other people do,but I, myself,wouldn't advocate myself supporting it for any female. I'm pro-choice,but for reasons other than the normal. I believe that if you made abortion illegal,that wouldn't stop people from performing the procedure. In fact, it would just be more dangerous for the woman as well as the baby.

Of course if a woman is raped then that is a justification,but my girlfriend was raped when she was 13. She had her whole life taken from her in an instant. She could have had an abortion and not bear the bastard's child,but she chose not to. Everytime we hear something about abortion, she gets really passionate about it. She always said that having the baby was the greatest moment in her life despite the circumstances. Now she regrets even thinking about abortion.

I still am pro-choice,but abortion is still pretty drastic and one shouldn't use it as a callous method of birth control. Thats all I'm going to say about this.

[Pelly <3's U]

In fairness, I don't see what excuse many women could have for leaving an abortion that late.

How about not having enough money? What about them not even knowing they are pregnant right away? Once again there are many circumstances in the world and you really can't pretend to know all of them.

Still the vast majority of abortions in the US (haven't researched other countries) are done before 12 weeks.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Honestly, if women are having abortions as a means of birth control, that's one thing they need to do some serious evaluating of their choices pre-abortion.

I don't believe that the government should have any control over a woman's body for this kind of stuff because I see the embryo and fetus as different from each other.

Anybody remember that topic about a 9-year-old Brazillian girl who was raped, impregnated, and threatened to be ex-communicated if she were to get an abortion? That's one of those serious issues that are resolved by ridiculous means. Why should she be forced to give birth when she didn't give any consent in the first place?

That's a really big issue, in that people are trying to enforce control into things they have no right to and wasting a lot of energy on it altogether. Unless you're the parent of a woman living under your roof, you can't tell her what she should and shouldn't do with her body. And I'm certain these same folks in power who want this control would not like it if they were under control by someone else.

I'll be honest, the thought that I could've been aborted sends chills up and down my spine. But it was my mother's decision to give birth to me. But who's in control over the woman's life and what to do with it? You, the Pope, the government, or her?

EDIT: Also, isn't it dangerous for a 9-year-old to be giving birth to a baby?

Edited September 14, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[TheGerkuman]

One of the roles of a national government is to ensure the health and wellbeing of its citizens. If abortion is made illegal, they will be carried out not with the specialised equipment and in the hygienic conditions of a hopstial. They'll be done in a back alley warehouse by some bloke called Dave using a bottle of chloroform and a rusty coathanger.

This is the reason why I accept the legalisation of abortion, even if I personally don't agree with it in principle. Of course, since as a guy I'm not capable child, my views don't seem to matter to anyone. Certainly not to the law.

[Vertekins]

I've always been against fetal abortion and always will be.

It comes to something when the US can pass the unborn victims of violence act, a law that stipulates that a crime against a pregnant woman is considered a crime against two people and yet abortion is still legalised. And NO ONE in this topic, me included, has any idea of whether or not a fetus can feel pain. Matter of fact, the controversy surrounding abortion also settles on the matter over whether or not a fetuses' nervous system is sufficiently developed enough to percieve pain from termination methods.

I know a story of a severely disabled young woman whose mother attempted to terminate whilst she was still in utero. The method was the one in which the fetus is fed a corrosive-like liquid to burn it's insides (I believe this method of termination is no longer availiable but I may be wrong). The method instigated premature labor instead and she was born severely damaged but alive and against all odds survived. That woman is now a pro-life activist and strives to illegalise abortion whilst suffering from terrible pain caused from permanent internal injuries inflicted by the method used to abort her.

Personally, the excuse that a fetus is brushed off as some embryonic parasite as if to belittle it's existence or to justify abortion even more sickens me. Yeah, have your severely premature less-than-24-weeks gestation child in your hands and brush it off as some parasite. That's not even the correct terminology if you think about it because a woman's system changes enough when she is pregnant to ensure that the child is not a strain, such as her blood volume increasing by 40% on average. 'Eating for two' is also a falsehood. Pregnancy is not a parasitic illness.

There was a very recent news report in the paper about a woman who birthed a 21 week old child, begged medical personnel to offer medical assistance to the child and had it denied in the most cruel way possible. All because he was a week younger than the UK's law that stipulates that only children of 22 weeks gestation and above can be offered medical support if born. The fact that children of 22 weeks gestation can be saved by medical intervention and yet children up to 24 weeks can be aborted is frankly, horrific.