Sonic fans have no idea how to make the franchise work well in 3D.

[Wraith]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

The general public are, at best, simply indifferent to the Pontac and Graff and Sonic stories in general. The main group of people who criticize them are the group who preferred the storytelling from before.

 

I'm talking about the Sonic fanbase there

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'm talking about the Sonic fanbase there

Well that depends on who you ask then. When Colors came out, it was praised to hell and back as "a return to form", with minority opinions being that it was cringe and bad writing but they were mostly drowned out by the amount of praise.

Things have obviously flipped now, but it's no different from what happened with the 2000 era games. Contrary to popular belief, they weren't always considered the pinnacle of writing and by 06, people were burnt out on them which led to the current writing direction.

 

Look at it this way, Sonic Forces is the Sonic 06 to Sonic Colors' Sonic Adventure. That alone should explain how the reception to these games goes. Initially praised for their "innovation" until their flaws became more prominent and people became less forgiving.

 

@Roger_van_der_weide hit the nail on the head. It doesn't matter what direction this series goes if the quality isn't up to par. They could remake Sonic Adventure and it could still have all of its issues and we are right back at square one. 

This isn't a "Fans don't know how 3D Sonic" works issue, this is an issue with the series on fundamental level.

[Plasme]

27 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This is what's called a "Vocal Minority", emphasis on vocal. 

This is a really common fallacy which is used online.

I don't hear this kind of thing from 5% of the most vocal fans online, I hear it from people in real life who are only vaguely interested in Sonic. I know someone who hasn't played a Sonic game since Sonic Heroes and she comes out with absolutely everything I posted.

The "vocal minority" of fans have created e a dominant ideology which most casual fans largely buy into.

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, Plasme said:

This is a really common fallacy which is used online.

I don't hear this kind of thing from 5% of the most vocal fans online, I hear it from people in real life who are only vaguely interested in Sonic. I know someone who hasn't played a Sonic game since Sonic Heroes and she comes out with absolutely everything I posted.

The "vocal minority" of fans have created e a dominant ideology which most casual fans largely buy into.

And guess what, I know people that never played the series since the classic titles and loved Sonic Colors, funny how that works right?

This is why trying to generalize opinions never works unless you can cite a sample size of some kind.

If you have no proof of this "dominant ideology" then your word is honestly bullshit and only based on your own personal experiences, and I can just say that my experiences were different. So it's my word against yours at the end of the day and neither of us can prove our findings.

That's why I said this something too broad to generalize as one common consensus.

 

[Plasme]

Just now, Kuzu said:

And guess what, I know people that never played the series since the classic titles and loved Sonic Colors, funny how that works right?

This is why trying to generalize opinions never works unless you can cite a sample size of some kind.

If you have no proof of this "dominant ideology" then your word is honestly bullshit and only based on your own personal experiences, and I can just say that my experiences were different. So it's my word against yours at the end of the day and neither of us can prove our findings.

That's why I said this something too broad to generalize as one common consensus.

 

I only can't prove it because no one has done large surveys of Sonic fan opinions. You can't prove that the fanbase is fragmented either. All we can go on is anecdotal evidence.

Except people talk about the fragmented nature of the fanbase as if it's a fact.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I only can't prove it because no one has done large surveys of Sonic fan opinions. You can't prove that the fanbase is fragmented either. All we can go on is anecdotal evidence.

Except people talk about the fragmented nature of the fanbase as if it's a fact.

I can't prove it unless I take a sample of opinions sure, but as I said here, all of these different continuties served as someone's introduction to the series and they based their perceptions of the series around that.

Sure, like Wraith said, people can like multiple things about Sonic but there's always going to be some level of bias because that's simply human nature.

Someone who grew up on SATAM might prefer the Freedom Fighters to Team Sonic from the games, even if they don't necessarily hate the latter. Some might prefer classic 2D gameplay to 3D gameplay and vice versa. 

That's a divided opinion, and Sonic Team have tried to appeal to each of these groups at some point, which just causes those groups to shout and want the series catered to them over the others.

[Tornado]

47 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I only can't prove it because no one has done large surveys of Sonic fan opinions. You can't prove that the fanbase is fragmented either. All we can go on is anecdotal evidence.

Except people talk about the fragmented nature of the fanbase as if it's a fact.

And here I thought this thread, with its OP full of absurd points that anyone who has been part of the fanbase since Unleashed came out would know firsthand were nonsense, was predicated on how factual it was that the fanbase collectively keeps changing its mind.

[Wraith]

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Look at it this way, Sonic Forces is the Sonic 06 to Sonic Colors' Sonic Adventure. That alone should explain how the reception to these games goes. Initially praised for their "innovation" until their flaws became more prominent and people became less forgiving.

 

Sonic Colors was getting shit long before Sonic Forces was coming along. 

There are trends you can observe with the franchise's reception but not everything comes down to that. The games that get the most shit get shit due to their individual narrative choices. 

[DryLagoon]

5 hours ago, Plasme said:

I only can't prove it because no one has done large surveys of Sonic fan opinions. You can't prove that the fanbase is fragmented either. All we can go on is anecdotal evidence.

I don't know how large you are looking for, but there was a survey awhile back posted here that had some interesting replies.

 

[Kuzu]

41 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Colors was getting shit long before Sonic Forces was coming along. 

There are trends you can observe with the franchise's reception but not everything comes down to that. The games that get the most shit get shit due to their individual narrative choices. 

Yes, and the same was true for Sonic Adventure long before 06 had come out with the DX port.

Not everything is a trend true, but there are blatant patterns that have been occurring in the series in its three decade span.

Both Sonic Adventure and Sonic Colors were praised for taking the series in a new direction and deviating from their predecessors. The flaws of these games became magnified over time without significant improvements being made, which culminated in a game that highlighted all of their flaws and none of the pros.

So many people I know both in and out of the fanbase have praised Sonic Colors and it served as the game that got them interested in the series again after the Adventure era of games had turned them off. It is one of the very few Sonic games with both a good critic score and user score on Metacritic. How can a game that got so much praise now just be considered "trash" is honestly baffling to me and it feels like it's trying to retroactively make something out worse than it actually was.

And it's mainly the Adventure fanbase that I see doing this by accentuating the game's flaws. I understand that it's not the preferred direction of the series, but I feel like after Lost World got middling reviews and then Forces, the Adventure fans felt vindicated and were like "a-hah, we told you these games were all trash". And I get where it stems from because the Adventure games went through the same ordeal of going from being praised to being retroactively being considered trash by the time 06 rolled around and Colors served as the game that fully vindicated Adventure hate.

 

 

I don't want to tell people how they should feel. Maybe you really do feel Sonic Colors was a trash game and feel Adventure was a hidden gem that was unjustly hated. I'm just pointing out that this isn't the first time this has occurred is all, because Adventure WAS initially praised when it had come out (It was the best selling game on the Dreamcast for god's sake) I've been in this series for over 15 years, and I've seen a lot of shit in that time span so I sympathize with fans who feel the series has abandoned the traits that got them interested in the series, but saying "Sonic Colors was always bad" just does not reflect its critical and fanbase reception.

 

[A Peep]

As divided as the fanbase is, almost everyone is saying the same things, no green hill, no 2D in 3D games, the new stories suck, no wisps, less automation. In this forum alone, you’ll probably see at least 5 posts saying the same thing. Plus, when was it the fans’ job to make a sonic game? While most 3D fan games are just test areas, the very few that get past that stage (Sonic GT, Robo Blast) have more effort and are more fun that any of the sonic from the last 8 years (besides Mania) usually done with with less than a sixth of developers games such as Lost World & Forces have. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

11 hours ago, Plasme said:

People can say the fanbase is fragmented as much as they like but that doesn't stop me from hearing the same complaints over and over again.

'No more Green Hill', 'No more Solo Sonic', 'I don't like Sonic's cocky new persona', 'I want Tails to be like he was in Adventure', 'I want more open levels', 'I want more serious stories',  'I want more 3D', etc etc

I hear this all the time online in different Sonic vommunities and even in real life. What's more annoying is that people usually say this as if they are the first person to come up with and they are being profound.

Sure, you get people like Diogenes who actually have different opinions on how the story should be handled, but they are very rare. The vast majority of fans conform to the above.

And before you attack me, consider, do you agree with the vast majority of the points above? You almost certaimly do. If you don't, I bet you already know that your views are a bit eccentric in the fanbase.

I just don't think there's any real solution to this problem. There are numerous sub sects of the fanbase and all of them feel strongly about what they think the main problems are. There are a number of ways to move forward with the franchise and find success but it really.has nothing to do with asking us fans about it, because if you ask us we will never agree. 

 

There a line in your OP that is a perfect highlight of this. You claim that after every release fans change their mind about what the problem is. In reality thats not true at all. The same fans who wanted Adventure style game play to come back after colors in 2010 are the same ones who are complaining about the exact same stuff right now. They never changed their tune and have only gotten louder the more they feel they are ignored. Same goes for the classic fans. I'm one of those, and even though there are many of us who like aspects of the modern titles since adventure, we have mostly thought for the longest time that the best way to handle the series is simply to focus on translating the classic gameplay and world (to be sure, some classic fans don't think that style of game can be made in 3D, but I doubt they are a majority) And there are even more modern fans who prefer the boost games who disagree and think that to continue along the path of generations style games is the way to go. And to be sure, it's not like there isn't overlap in these fanbase. I myself like games across sonics entire history. But the foundations of these arguments usually work on the assumption that the style they want has a obvious blueprint in their opinion, that if followed would make everything better. There is no way to have a unified discussion in these conditions. We are left with echo chambers who think the world should agree with them or they're just haters (adventure fans are the loudest one right now). 

 

If I were Sega, I would do my own careful analysis of the series and develop my own vision for what to do with the series based on what I think is best for Sonic. Because ST listens to us too much without ever understanding really how to address all of our issues simultaneously (because it's impossible and they should forever stop doing it) and gets stuck in the mud too often. They created this monster and the only way to defeat it, is by not feeding it. Feeding it is making titles without a clear vision and operating without an identity, so in essence throwing ideas at the wall and continually fracturing the fanbase more and more. 

 

They really need to rewrite their sonic Bible and for the mainline series stick to its principles. And there's no sense in shooing off fans, so when budgets get larger due to more success, make spinoff titles that cater more to the interests of fans who like games in the alternative styles that branch off of the main path. There is a place for almost any fan in the franchise. But you have to know what the main path is, or else you'll never get anywhere, and set a priority list, so that eventually everything is handled in proper order. See: Mania and Forces. One did it exactly in this manner, and the other did the complete opposite and the post release results show this clearly. 

[Kuzu]

Well I guess now is as good of a time to bring up a video that I have resonated with recently. 

Game Apologist is, as the name suggests, a person who focuses on finding the good in bad games. And that alone should tell you that he's dabbled in the Sonic series; so far though he has only touched the classic titles. What I like about this channel though is that despite identifying himself as a classic Sonic fan, he understands and sympathizes with the other sects of the fanbase who feel their voices aren't being heard (i.e. the Adventure fans). This video calls into question just what direction should the series try to strive for in light of the recent success of the movie, and what that means for Modern and Classic Sonic. It's a good watch and I recommend if you got twenty minutes to spare (we all know you do btw, you guys are quarantined just like me) 

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I just don't think there's any real solution to this problem. There are numerous sub sects of the fanbase and all of them feel strongly about what they think the main problems are. There are a number of ways to move forward with the franchise and find success but it really.has nothing to do with asking us fans about it, because if you ask us we will never agree. 

The solution is to just make different types of games that appeal to different groups. And media in general. This isn't a new thing and a pretty common tactic with franchises. And it just litterally worked with sonic mania. Not only is its solvable, not only has it been done in media. Sonic just did it to wild success.

I do think asking the fans are ascertaining preference is a way to go, especially if they keep nostalgia mining. However the issue is, they need to come to terms with on some cases people want different stuff. Again mania exists partially because people wanted that thing. The idea that appealing to fans just stops at classic era stuff and shouldn't be applied to anything else is baffling.

Not to generalize too harshly. but classic fans litterally yelled about a thing, for decades and just got the thing. And the thing when gotten was wildly successful. The idea this just wouldn't happen with 3d games or shouldn't is strange

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

The solution is to just make different types of games that appeal to different groups. And media in general. This isn't a new thing and a pretty common tactic with franchises. And it just litterally worked with sonic mania. Not only is its solvable, not only has it been done in media. Sonic just did it to wild success.

I do think asking the fans are ascertaining preference is a way to go, especially if they keep nostalgia mining. However the issue is, they need to come to terms with on some cases people want different stuff. Again mania exists partially because people wanted that thing. The idea that appealing to fans just stops at classic era stuff and shouldn't be applied to anything else is baffling.

Not to generalize too harshly. but classic fans litterally yelled about a thing, for decades and just got the thing. And the thing when gotten was wildly successful. The idea this just wouldn't happen with 3d games or shouldn't is strange

Just saying "Make games that appeal to people" is too broad of a statement to make and offers no insightful information on what exactly is it that they should do.

[Shadowlax]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Just saying "Make games that appeal to people" is too broad of a statement to make and offers no insightful information on what exactly is it that they should do.

Ok.  I dont think it's that complicated

Do sonic mania but for different shit. It's clear that most of the of sonic dudes at sega are gone.  But they can find other studios and people who can and may understand elements as to what made those games appeal those fans.

You can make a sonic adventure type game, and a heroes type game and a gents type game  just instead of trying to mash elements of other sonic together to for the broadest appeal possible. Focus on them. Manis works because its unapologetically a classic sonic game. If they made an unapologetic adventure game that was good, it would mostly do well. Sonic games in the past weren't burdened as much with needing the widest appeal. And using those elements to make games in the future, they should be treated the same.

[Kuzu]

16 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Ok.  I dont think it's that complicated

Do sonic mania but for different shit. It's clear that most of the of sonic dudes at sega are gone.  But they can find other studios and people who can and may understand elements as to what made those games appeal those fans.

You can make a sonic adventure type game, and a heroes type game and a gents type game  just instead of trying to mash elements of other sonic together to for the broadest appeal possible. Focus on them. Manis works because its unapologetically a classic sonic game. If they made an unapologetic adventure game that was good, it would mostly do well. Sonic games in the past weren't burdened as much with needing the widest appeal. And using those elements to make games in the future, they should be treated the same.

If it was as simple as "Make X game" we wouldn't have to ask this fucking question to begin with :V

You need to be specific; actually define what needs to change, even if it boils down to shit that only you personally would care about. I know its not fans jobs to come up with these ideas, but half of the reason we scream our lungs at each other is because none of us can ever define what exactly is it that we want. "I want an Adventure game" does not explain what exactly is it from the Adventure games that you want. "I want an Adventure game" can be interpreted, in the worst charitable light mind you, that you want all of the clunkiness and everything else bad from them too. 

So yes, it is a bit more complicated than "Make X game" they've made plenty of games that appeal to different groups and none of them have succeeded :V

[Shadowlax]

28 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If it was as simple as "Make X game" we wouldn't have to ask this fucking question to begin with :V

You need to be specific; actually define what needs to change, even if it boils down to shit that only you personally would care about. I know its not fans jobs to come up with these ideas, but half of the reason we scream our lungs at each other is because none of us can ever define what exactly is it that we want. "I want an Adventure game" does not explain what exactly is it from the Adventure games that you want. "I want an Adventure game" can be interpreted, in the worst charitable light mind you, that you want all of the clunkiness and everything else bad from them too. 

So yes, it is a bit more complicated than "Make X game" they've made plenty of games that appeal to different groups and none of them have succeeded :V

I don't think anyone is saying game development easy. I know first hand it isn't. What I am saying the base premise isn't that complicated. I didn't say actually executing it wouldn't require time , money , talent a desire to even do the thing in the first place.

Also want needs to be changed in an adventure game. Yesh, you got time?

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think anyone is saying game development easy. I know first hand it isn't. What I am saying the base premise isn't that complicated. I didn't say actually executing it wouldn't require time , money , talent a desire to even do the thing in the first place.

Also want needs to be changed in an adventure game. Yesh, you got time?

It's better than screaming at other about which is better adventure or colors, so by all means. 

[Shadowlax]

6 hours ago, Kuzu said:

It's better than screaming at other about which is better adventure or colors, so by all means. 

 

• Don't treat it like it needs to be some technical marvel that is meant to boost a console. You all aren't in the console business anymore. There were a lot of decisions that were made at that time that were contextualized because you ( sega ) had a console. You don't. And there are gameplay issues specifically in things like parts of sonic's level in sa1 just being not fun because they needed variation because you wanted to show off how much stuff you could do. But it ended up being I had to pole dance on a bunch of iciles very slowly , fuck around in a not fun casino ,  and roll around in air carrier luggage compartment. Having a more sa2 approach whether it be a remake of the first two adventures or a new one , where the levels are more focused around navigation and speed and not " what can we do " will make more focused levels.
• Embrace the musical variety of adventure era games past. Sonic's musical catalog isn't worse on a quality level , but its more narrow. And I guess technically that makes sense there are a lot less playable characters. But if we are getting back to that embrace that diverse musical genre.
• Hey, keep the chao world rewards separate if there is a chao world. If you make the chao world good, most people just want to play it.
• COSTUMES COSTUMES COSTUMES. You see that crash bandicoot racing game that kicked the shit out of TSR part of the reason is there is content for it. You need to be less averse to dressing the characters and to your credit you kinda are with speed battle ( or now just sonic forces) . Keep that up, bring it to the game. Give me more incentive to play through your game more.
• Speaking of content, well lets have a talk about hubworlds. To be or not to be. Here's the deal. If you are gonna do hubworlds whether its an adventure 1 remake or a future game. You need to make it extra interactive and fun to explore, I have never thought hubworlds in sonic have ever been executed well. But I don't think its impossible , but time and effort need to be made to make you feel more included in that world and its goings on. My character specific personal stuff, quests, npc's ect, to make it feel like the world is truly reacting to you. Whoever you are playing is. However like in a sa2, remake or you go in a sa2 direction in a future game. I feel like the levels themselves should be interesting enough and varied enough to keep you entertained with out the need of the hubworld. It should immerse you in where you are.
• Speaking of content like lets talk about story. Specifically remake stuff. If you remake 1 and 2 you all may need to change things. Like in sa1, maybe big doesn't need to be playable. And froggy's emerald stuff mostly doesn't really require a playable big. Maybe that focus could instead be used on giving us more echidna information and more stuff in the past. Or like sa2, we know's shadow isn't going to die. Heck a bunch of the stuff said in the original sa2 effectively got reconnected by his continued existence. I would say embrace it, instead of a story about eventual self sacrifice making it about someone powering through and surviving and learning to live a new life afterward. Don't be afraid tto make story changes is all i'm saying

These are some things I dunno man, i'll think of more later

[DryLagoon]

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

• Don't treat it like it needs to be some technical marvel that is meant to boost a console. [...] But it ended up being I had to pole dance on a bunch of iciles very slowly , fuck around in a not fun casino ,  and roll around in air carrier luggage compartment. Having a more sa2 approach whether it be a remake of the first two adventures or a new one , where the levels are more focused around navigation and speed and not " what can we do " will make more focused levels.

I did like the casino though. The pinball felt like the 3D version of the 2D slots. (and if you really hated it if you lost all your balls you could go to the underground with a lot of rings that was like a mini level itself.) I mostly agree with the rest. I do think some balance of the two could work (not about gimmicks but in the sense of SA2's trick system and exploration missions with SA1's wider looking levels and hubworlds).

Quote

• Embrace the musical variety of adventure era games past. Sonic's musical catalog isn't worse on a quality level , but its more narrow. And I guess technically that makes sense there are a lot less playable characters. But if we are getting back to that embrace that diverse musical genre.

I can respect them wanting to keep a theme per character, but it depends on how they do things level wise. In the past we had SA1 with characters sharing the exact same music for different versions of the same levels, and SA2 having similar but different scenery for levels with different music. I'm not sure if it's been suggested before, but something I've seen in other media is to assign an instrument or style to a character, and then use that for them. So instead of making a brand new song, you could have a remix of the stage based on which character is playing it. So Sonic with guitar, Tails with that electronic sound, Knuckles with a rap/backing beat, Shadow with his SA2 style or harder guitar, Rouge with bossa nova and female backing vocals, and so on. I think this video does a good job at explaining it. That way you could still have the style but also have a shared feeling for that level if it is a shared one. It doesn't have to be a super strict rule either, as some of the more notable tracks came from straying from the style a bit. (like the Sonic Rush tracks)

Quote

Hey, keep the chao world rewards separate if there is a chao world. If you make the chao world good, most people just want to play it.

I'm not sure they have control over the PS/Xbox achievements if that's what you mean. Otherwise I think using the animals and rings makes it feel more Sonic-like and gives you something to actually use them for. But since it's in game they would likely always count it for 100%. I wouldn't mind if they gave Chao more goals and split it as it's own thing to 100%. Chaos Chao would definitely be the end game then considering how long it takes to get one.

Quote

COSTUMES COSTUMES COSTUMES.

I love the costumes. I would treat it partly as an event thing (unlocked during things like Christmas) and partly as an achievement thing (do this task, unlock this costume). You could also just make it a shop thing. But I think it makes it fun to earn, and could be an easy way to add things like Classic Sonic without changing the gameplay. (maybe even could apply classic sound effects when equipped as well) The mobile games already have this down, so I'd look at them and Sonic Channel for inspiration. (as well as SA2 and Sonic Rivals of all games had some cool ones) Speaking of things from Adventure and mobile games, level overlays for Holidays would be nice to see again.

Quote

Speaking of content, well lets have a talk about hubworlds.

Something I haven't seen mentioned is level based side quests. Like maybe a human lost their necklace at the beach level, and you race to find it. I'm not 100% sure on it, but it'd be one way to make them feel more connected.

Quote

Or like sa2, we know's shadow isn't going to die. Heck a bunch of the stuff said in the original sa2 effectively got reconnected by his continued existence. I would say embrace it, instead of a story about eventual self sacrifice making it about someone powering through and surviving and learning to live a new life afterward. Don't be afraid tto make story changes is all i'm saying

I'd only agree with this if they actually wrote Shadow well again. Otherwise it comes off as super petty for him to go from humble and changed to "I'm the ultimate!" and so on. I feel like since the game is about legacy I still like the idea of clone Shadow being canon. (meaning the original Shadow did die, but a clone is made by Eggman and decides to try and follow in the original Shadow's image, even if flawed at doing so) Shadow's true existence was already left vague in the original so this wouldn't be too different (as in leaving it open if he was the same one on the Ark with Maria or not).

[Roger_van_der_weide]

I think the better point with Mania is that that game had focus.
It knew exactly what it wanted to be, what the audience was, and what they wanted.
It had a very specific goal, specific focus. Make a Classic style game. And went 100% for that.

Compare that to Forces that was trying to do it's own thing, throw in a half assed classic Sonic to appease classic fans, shove in Shadow and a half assed story to appease the Adventure fans. There's no focus, no identity, just a pile of things.

So that's where I'd agree with Shadowlax.
Do it Mania style. Make the occasional spin off directly tailored to a specific flavor of Sonic.
Much rather have Sega either stop appeasing fans and just make what Sonic Team genuinely wants to make (If they genuinely want to make it, chances are we genuinely want to play it, even if it's a new direction)
Or if they DO want to appease us, then SIT the *$& DOWN, take a good hard look at what people want and how those games operated, and genuinely make a game that carries on that DNA structure and evolve it further. Don't just grab surface level nostalgia and brainlessly shove it in a game where it doesn't fit.

These fake attempts to appease me as an Adventure fan just piss me off.
And It's impossible for me to respect and love the new ideas Sonic Team has since none of their new ideas ever had a chance to breathe. Technically I love what Sonic Lost World Tried to do, but boy does is that game making it hard for me to see it's qualities.
Can hardly mock fans for mostly delivering singular tech demo levels when Sonic Team themselves can't carry most of their ideas trough an entire game either.

[DryLagoon]

It's repeating a bit, but the only spinoff we got since Forces besides Olympics is Team Sonic Racing and it feels like they really tried to combine the Hero system of Sonic Heroes with their kart spinoff series.

If we get another spinoff some day I'd love to see them attempt a fighter again looking at Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle for inspiration.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

It's repeating a bit, but the only spinoff we got since Forces besides Olympics is Team Sonic Racing and it feels like they really tried to combine the Hero system of Sonic Heroes with their kart spinoff series.

If we get another spinoff some day I'd love to see them attempt a fighter again looking at Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle for inspiration.

I want a fighter. I would want a more regular kind of fighter though. There is a fan made one  that plays like the marvel vs series that is gettting regularly updated that's pretty cool

[Kuzu]

Also, I'm going to retract my earlier statements about this fanbase being too divided; @Plasme and @Wraith do have a point that while we may have different biases on what we prefer out of the series, we're all here for Sonic at the end of the day. And I think most of us would be down for whatever direction Sega pulled with Sonic if it maintained the type of focus and quality that a game like Mania had. 

Even if you're not a fan of Classic Sonic, most really cannot deny that Mania is simply well made game and that's a significant reason why people loved it.