Is the TMNT fandom as fractured as Sonic's?

[Austroid]

Something that's been on my mind for awhile is: Why doesn't the TMNT fandom seem to get any negative attention like the Sonic fanbase?

Going through the different incarnations we've got: the original comics, '87 cartoon, '90s live action movies, '90s Next Mutation show, 2003 cartoon, 2007 CGI movie, 2012 Nick cartoon, the Michael Bay live-action movies, and currently Rise of the TMNT. (You could also probably count the different comic runs done by Archie and IDW for good measure.)

Most if not all have their own devoted sub-fanbases. Some like the darker comics and shows, some like the more light-hearted stuff, others fall more in-between. With all these varying comics/shows/movies differing in designs, tone, writing, etc. why doesn't it seem like the fandom has the kind of problems we Sonic fans so often get accused of? (Like we don't know what we want, we're never happy, etc.) 

I'd like to know what you guys think!

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I like to imagine because TMNT as a franchise appeals to both adults and children of all ages. Sonic does that too, but the games are more family-friendly in general and can be enjoyed by anyone, while TMNT has specific material that suits niches and appeals specifically to different demographics. 

If you want a goofy but fun show, the 80s show has you covered. If you want a good retelling of the comics, TMNT 2003 is not only faithful, but it balances humour and darker themes perfectly. The 2012 show is especially excellent at striking a fine balance of darker storytelling, and lighter storytelling, and still making it fit. Especially when you consider the Season 2 or the Season 4 finales. 

If you want full on gritty and dark - you can pick up the original Mirage run. If you want something fairly serious, but also with a lot of fun - IDW's got you covered, etc. Hell, TMNT 1990 is a great film that is a lot of fun, has a lot of heart, and faithfully retells one of the darkest stories of the Mirage run.

Sonic is fairly limited by the franchise it's in. When it chooses a direction to go, generally all other media has to adhere to it. Especially nowadays, where SEGA has placed a lot of restrictions and guidelines on how things tend to work.

In comparison, TMNT seems to have been granted a lot more freedom. Nick/Viacom hold the rights to it, and during the same period of time, they not only had 2012 and Rise going - two different shows tone-wise, but they also allowed IDW to make two different comics to appeal to two different demographics - you have the regular IDW run, with darker storytelling and more serious writing to appeal to those who enjoy that take, while they also did comics based on 2012 and Rise for those who wanted a lighter or funner take.

I think that's really a key point. As a longtime fan of the Turtles, I find them to be much more flexible as a franchise, and that's because they're generally granted the freedom to be flexible, and experiment.

And being fair, the Turtles have struck out a lot, and typically for the same reason Sonic tends to do a lot. You'll find a lot calling out the likes of Next Mutation, Michael Bay's films, TMNT3, and Fast Forward/Back to the Sewers, and that's because instead of having faith in what worked before, executives or other creatives stuck their noses in to try take the Turtles in directions that don't work. Fast Forward/Back to the Sewers were gimmicky attempts to boost ratings, Next Mutation is written as a bad Power Rangers show with Turtle suits, and ruins several important aspects to the Turtles for the sake of implying Venus can get with one of them romantically. TMNT 3 is an utterly terrible cornball fest with horrible writing, and Michael Bay's films attempted to nostalgia pander while not understanding the core characterisation, and having terrible characters/writing on top of that (See - Casey Jones).

But that's simply a luxury Sonic isn't afforded. There tends to only be one vision of the franchise in terms of tone allowed at once. The closest to a break we've gotten from that in the longest time was first Archie, and then IDW with the current Zombot arc, and even that's arguably since Forces tried to move the main series back to a darker place than the likes of Lost World before it.

The result of that is since there's only generally one kind of direction/tone allowed at any one time, only one category of fans are getting what they want, and that leads to others arguing about what direction the series should take, and why the series was better when that direction was being taken. It's fairly understandable as well when you also have other aspects like terrible writing creeping their way into the series, meaning even when a particular direction is being followed, you'll see people still split because while they might like said direction, it isn't being utilised or written as you want.

Plus, it kind of helps that TMNT despite the strike outs tend to have a lot of passion placed into it by their creative teams. Rise of the TMNT was easily the biggest example - everything looked bad about it beforehand, all of the character changes, all of the mean spirited alterations to relationships, getting rid of established villains, etc. But it turns out that the creators were still dedicated to these characters, and implemented changes to show while different, it's still the franchise we love. Hell, Splinter was downright hateable during the first season, only for it to be recently revealed that...

Spoiler

He does love the turtles, so much so that he turned into a mutant to save them from being enslaved by the main villain. The reason he acts so callous in the series is due to the fact he's depressed and suffering PTSD from his days in the Battle Nexus (something I did not expect to see them reference at all).

Sonic frankly hasn't had that for the longest time. The closest we have is Ian Flynn, who is a great writer, but is limited to only the comics and the occasional episode of Boom. Boom's writers were pretty good as well, even if they did go too far with the meta humour/fourth wall breaks at times. But in terms of the games, it's obvious Potac and Graff couldn't care less. They admitted they didn't play any games beforehand/did any research, and it painfully showed, as characters were either flanderised into bad characters doing things for the sake of pushing the plot forward (Sonic and Tails in Lost World), or couldn't handle difficult things with any real tact (Boom Knuckles in general - he can be funny if the writers know where to draw the line with his stupidity. Potac and Graff did not, leading to some very cringe-worthy lines in Shattered Crystal).

Bar the obvious exception of Mania and Generations, and maybe Runners if you're feeling good, it doesn't feel like there's passion there, while TMNT almost always has passion in their projects, and in the ones that do fail, they tend to fail due to lack of passion in the characters and franchise, and when that happens, fans do bring it up and criticise it. Hell, TMNT Out of the Shadows is a prime example of that.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Well Mirage Comics Vs 80s "Fred Wolf" carton fight did exist but that was pre-internet days, so flames were smaller.

When 2003 "4Kids" cartoon came out, 80s kids already moved on. If they watched the cartoon, they appreciated darker tone.

And by NIck/IDW/Rise TMNT turtles fans accepted that fact that their franchise is at constant flux. Even if they don't like the current tone, they know it will change soon (in comparison, we're stuck with terrible written silly tone).

And lastly, most of mainstream TMNT stuff is good, if not great. Only exception are several all movies and not-that-mainstream Archie comics (also let's face it, no 80s cartoon aged gracefully). Because of that TMNT doesn't "need fixing" and isn't punching bag of internet like us, so fans aren't as bitterer.

...hey, it's another self-flagellation topic. *takes a shot*

[Kuzu]

Ironically enough, the closest the fanbase ever had to being "united" was in the 90's. There were multiple Sonic properties and each fandom stayed in their lane.

 

Wanted to play the games, you had that. Preferred SATAM, you had that too. STC was there and the comics.

 

But starting with Sonic Adventure, Sega decided that every property had to be derived from the games and all of those sub series slowly faded out with the exception of Archie. The games became the "pinnacle" so to speak.

 

But yea, TMNT is allowed to do whatever the fuck it wants and has multiple forms of media that cater to different demographics. Sonic's primary form of media has, and always will be, the video games and those will always serve as the basis for the rest of the series. 

[Plumbers_Helper]

As someone who used to frequent the most popular TMNT forum for many years, which I recommend avoiding because the forums are horribly moderated so users are basically free to be as hateful and cruel as they want, I can definitely say the TMNT fandom is just as, if not more, fractured then the Sonic fan base.

Probably the most...passionate is the original Mirage Comics fans. Anything less accurate then source material is seen as a childish abomination. I remember one user on the forums in particular who took every opportunity they had to complain how stupid the idea of "rainbow headbands" for the Turtles are. As some of you know, in the original comics the Turtles all wore red head bands. This guy would go on and on about how red was more stealthy, allowed the group of four to look like they had more member then they do, how the red color is representative of the Hamato clan, etc.

For some, the original 80s cartoon is an enjoyably goofy show in a similar vain to the 60s Batman show, for others it's a terribly written show that forever ruined the public perception of the franchise. The original movie is either a well made visual effects marvel that pays respects to both the original source material and the original cartoon, or nothing more then "Danny the movie". The 2003 4Kids series is either a good adaption of the original comics that manages to successfully add it's own unique takes on the franchise, or a terribly watered down adaptation that just makes the original stories look even worse. The last one in particular reminds me of how some Sonic fans feel about the Adventure adaptations in Sonic X. I remember at one point a writer for the 2012 CG series joined the forum to answer questions for the fans and was bombarded with so much negative criticism that he eventually left the forum for good.

I want to say this is just my experience so you're mileage may very. Obviously every fan base have those one or two fans that bring everyone down and I don't want to make the entire TMNT fan base look bad, but let's just say I feel more comfortable here then I ever did in the TMNT forum that I am intentionally leaving unnamed.

[batson]

On 4/3/2020 at 8:31 PM, Plumbers_Helper said:

For some, the original 80s cartoon is an enjoyably goofy show in a similar vain to the 60s Batman show, for others it's a terribly written show that forever ruined the public perception of the franchise.

Well that just doesn't make any sense. The 80's cartoon is the only reason most people got into TMNT in the first place. Oh sure the Mirage comic's have their obscure following of nerds, but go out into the real world and ask people if they know about TMNT and easily 90% of those people will think about the 80's cartoon, and the majority will think of it fondly.

[MetalSkulkBane]

4 minutes ago, batson said:

Well that just doesn't make any sense. The 80's cartoon is the only reason most people got into TMNT in the first place. Oh sure the Mirage comic's have their obscure following of nerds, but go out into the real world and ask people if they know about TMNT and easily 90% of those people will think about the 80's cartoon, and the majority will think of it fondly.

Imagine being fan of gritty serious comic, where characters actually evolve and age, actions have consequences. It's niche, but that makes it special, like being part of exclusive club.
And suddenly it gets cartoon and everyone says "Oh you're TMNT fan? Of that silly cartoon for kiddies?" And now your franchise sold out, everywhere you look you see caricature of your favorite thing and (as far as you know in 80s) in the future Turtles will for ever be for little kids.
(Just to be clear: I don't think in those categories, but I understand how someone else could use this logic)

I mean situation with Sonic Colors is kinda similar.