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Kuzu

Why Shadow matters

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14 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

As for them being afraid of shadow mean anything. I don't think its that, I think shadow is a symptom of a larger issue(s). They are afraid of " canon" , they want to be able to plop these characters anywhere and just make em go, and that's it. And shadow's not that character, his character's existence implies canon. While yes he's an extremely versatile character, you can't just up and change him without people noticing and getting upset and sega is currently experiencing this. Unless they strait up say " we are rebooting sonic these past games don't matter" ( they never will ) , people will expectations of that character based on past experiences .

You just don't notice with other characters because a lions share of them can be ignored. Some of them are noticeable, blaze is a good example. But the idea is to make things more simple. Issue is, shadow's in a very particular situation where you can't really make him simple, and you can't ignore his past because even his debut game is one of the most mythologized games in sonic period and kind of in the general video game populous.

They can't simplify his character down

They can't pretend his past doesn't exist

So what can they do, just put him in shit. Now obviously they could just... write better stories and occasionally include shadow in those. But they don't want to , they want very simple non offensive content. Even forces that is supposed to be harkening back to another era is simpler and worse version of it.

If I were in a more dire mood I would suggest this character may eventually just go away because they can't fit him in their vision clearly. But a few things have given me a bit more hope that wont happen.

But Yeah I don't think its a shadow thing. I think he just gets hit hard because they want to unilaterally go in another direction and what he is does not work in that direction.

 

I'm glad someone else mentioned it as it's been something in the back of my mind for awhile now.

I still believe that the Mania and "Main" split would help with this. As much as I personally think the actual classic games had interesting plot and characters in it's own right, over the years many Classic fans want simple plot and characters instead. So why not have Mania stick with the simple but stylish feel, and the "main" titles  (whatever we end up calling them) go for the more story and character approach? It doesn't have to always be serious either, I think a more balanced tone would be best. You can still have jokes, just know when is best to use them. Maybe that's simplifying things too much, but I don't think people would mind the jokes as much as long as there was something interesting around it.

I find Shadow in a very interesting situation. He feels like the type prime for a spin off series so he doesn't hog the spotlight from Sonic (My comparison would be Mega Man vs Mega Man Zero), but due to the reception of his game this likely won't happen. It really is funny in a sad way, his popularity brought him back from the dead, but it also keeps him from being in the newer games as often.

As much as I like Shadow, I'd rather he be used well occasionally than shoved into every game but has no reason to be there. I think that it's natural for characters to rotate based on where Sonic's adventures take him, and even more so now that we are missing all of the spin off titles we used to get. As for being added to Forces, I wasn't against his episode existing. I found it a unique way (for Sonic) of giving him something to do without him having to overshadow Sonic in the main story. I think if they had fleshed it out a bit more it could have been great. I think having someone to bounce off besides Sonic was interesting (even if they kind of did it in 06).

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16 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I don't actually agree with any of this; Shadow's story is only relevant up until it's resolved. That was the entire point of the game's ending, Shadow moving forward with his life without being burdened by the past. 

His story does only serves to tell you where he came from, but not how his actual character is supposed to be. At his fundamental core, he is "Dark Sonic", he's Dark Sonic with a significant backstory, but he is mainly dark Sonic first and foremost. . 

No, the specific details of Shadow's backstory and character arc need not be the focus of the plot anymore. But, whether the story dives into his history or not, his character is still shaped by his experiences. There's no mention of Gerald, Maria, the Ark, Black Doom, or amnesia in Sonic '06 but everything about Shadow in that game, his mission to guard Earth, his protectiveness of his friends, his determination to control his own fate, the way the world sees him, and even his status as a GUN agent all build off what came before. That's what makes stuff like his sociopathic behavior in Free Riders or his I hate friendship attitude in Rise of Lyric so galling. They're not just poorly written, they're fundamentally at odds with everything Shadow that made Shadow who he was, even before his character development.

 

16 hours ago, Kuzu said:

People get get hung up on his backstory because its where most of the character's appeal is from, but his backstory is no longer relevant to the direction the series is headed towards. And I can get how can how that be frustrating if you're a fan of how he was portrayed in that time period, but Shadow needed to either be changed to fit in with the trends like Sonic, or just left behind and forgotten and there's just way too much potential for the character for the latter to happen. 

I used to be pissed off too at how his character has been utilized, but I also started to understand that his character was beginning to stagnate by the end of the PS3/X360/Wii Generation. Sonic is a contemporary series and constantly changes itself to fit with the current times, and Shadow is no different. 

I've got to agree with @Shadowlax here. It sounds less like Shadow had to change and more like you're trying to justify having giving up on the him. Shadow's character shouldn't have to be warped beyond recognition just because Sonic Team has no interest in being competent. 

Side Note: If Sonic had spent the 2010s chasing current trends, rather than 90s nostalgia, I think we'd have seen it leaning into the trappings of the Adventure era rather than trying to distance itself from them. Large, colorful casts of superpowered characters, each with their own interconnected stories to tell has kind of been the big thing for the last decade.

 

16 hours ago, Kuzu said:

He has always been primarily a foil to Sonic first and foremost. His backstory is secondary to that. 

I've got to disagree. Shadow may have been conceived as a contrast to Sonic but he's always been his own character first. Even in SA2, the game that really played up Sonic vs Shadow, the rivalry is mainly from Sonic's side while Shadow is focused on doing his own thing. Shadow still acts as a foil to Sonic but, as with Knuckles, its just one aspect of who he is and far from the most defining. Unlike Metal Sonic or Jet, Shadow is perfectly capable of standing as a compelling character in his own right, and still would be even if Sonic didn't exist. 

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14 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

No, the specific details of Shadow's backstory and character arc need not be the focus of the plot anymore. But, whether the story dives into his history or not, his character is still shaped by his experiences. There's no mention of Gerald, Maria, the Ark, Black Doom, or amnesia in Sonic '06 but everything about Shadow in that game, his mission to guard Earth, his protectiveness of his friends, his determination to control his own fate, the way the world sees him, and even his status as a GUN agent all build off what came before. That's what makes stuff like his sociopathic behavior in Free Riders or his I hate friendship attitude in Rise of Lyric so galling. They're not just poorly written, they're fundamentally at odds with everything Shadow that made Shadow who he was, even before his character development.

 

To be fair, Rise of Lyric and even the other Boom stuff was a different universe. Also, I heard the Japanese version apparently implies Lyric did something to him prior to that fight given the filter.

14 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Side Note: If Sonic had spent the 2010s chasing current trends, rather than 90s nostalgia, I think we'd have seen it leaning into the trappings of the Adventure era rather than trying to distance itself from them. Large, colorful casts of superpowered characters, each with their own interconnected stories to tell has kind of been the big thing for the last decade.

 

 

Oh man, the irony of it all.

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8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Yo homie it sounds like you just gave up. Shadow was literally fine and was being portrayed in updated settings fine. The comics exist as proof of that. Maybe maybe I would agree with you if ian flynn didnt exist, or evan Stanley, bunches of fan content. Even shit like twitter take overs, heck sonic goddamn forces. If these didn't exist, I might agree. But they do and he does work.

Which means the issue isn't shadow. Its who's controlling him. You like many fans have been beaten for over the head for so long with sega/sonic team's incompetence. That you started to think there was something inherently wrong with the franchise and its parts. But no, it's just sega.

You know what speaks to why you are so wrong.  Modern sonic is currently having a dramatic arc where characters have motivations and shadows,  the character literally built for that, is the only one that is bad. Not because of some inherent flaw. Or the times have changed.It's because sega made him that way.

You gave up and now blaming shadow instead of sega. You taking on a corporations argument as a consumer. And its flawed. Because they are gonna screw up more things. If they keep screwing up game tails are you gonna tell me tails isnt fitting sonic anymore?

No. No one at Sega/ST in exec positions or positions of creative power, has had an interesting thought about shadow, heck a lot of this series in years. It speaks volumes that the community manager, not a writer the community manager. Wrote a better more modern jokey shadow for a bit than sega has in years.

You gave up because you think the the company in charge isnt gonna provide you the quality you want. And that's cool, problably healthier than a lot of sonic fans means of coping. But dont sit here and try to blame this character for being unfitting when there are examples of him working fine. If not better.

Shadows weird because they want to capitalize on nostalgia without understand what made it work  and without too much work. They don't want to try, they dont want to commit time. And that has nothing to do with shadow.

Because again people litterally have the ability to make him work right now.

Ok soapbox sadie, calm down. You literally missed the point of what I was saying and then changed the subject entirely. I didn't say that Shadow didn't fit the series, nor have I given up on anything. I said his character was stagnating. By the time 2010 rolled around, 06 aside, his character was roughly going nowhere and that was true for literally most of the cast as well. 

Yes, I know Sega/ST sucks, I've literally known this since forever, I don't need to be told this. But I've learned it's important to not confuse their incompetence with my own personal biases and that their incompetence should be judged on a case by case basis, and not as a whole. Do I like how they're currently handling the series? Not at all. But I'm not a fucking employee at Sega and screaming into the empty void that is the internet within this toxic fanbase isn't really helpful either.  So I'm just gonna make my own judgments and go with the flow.

Yes, Shadow CAN work, I don't need to be told this; but there are many different ways he can be used and none of them are inherently wrong (Except Boom, shit is trash). 

9 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Time out.

You mean the same exact 90’s that gave us the grim dark SatAM Robotnik that would fit right at home with the tone Shadow partially brought with him several years later? And that’s just one example.

Not to gripe at you because it’s actually worthwhile for you to point out, but at the same this is pretty hypocritical at best or ignorant at worst in hindsight to how people categorize themselves as a certain type of fan from a certain era but pigeonhole it to one aspect while disregarding everything else of that era like they don’t represent the franchise as opposed to literally everything else when the only critieria for that is preference—and hey, everyone has them, but that doesn’t invalidate the other things outside of that preference that represents the franchise.
 

I grew up in the 90s and was an avid Sonic fan. And during that period, we had Sonic in the manner of Looney Tunes with AoSTH, Sonic in the form of an underground militia with SatAM, and Sonic as a prince in Underground. Not to speak for everyone on what they like, but if you grew up with Sonic in the 90s, at least here in the US, it wasn’t just the games that influenced your Sonic fix as you were exposed to far more than that out there given how that was the main period Sonic was the bigger juggernaut than Mario before his fall. And regardless of which you happen to be a fan of or the direction the series is going in now, you’d think with these things being wildly different representations of the franchise that a character like Shadow wouldn’t be that alien in the series general. It’s been far more flexible in the past that someone like Shadow wouldn’t be that alien compared to the stuff that came after him—and sometimes even that.

And the truth is, he wouldn’t. If you rewind the clock back two decades, I find it hard to believe Shadow wouldn’t fit somewhere in the series. He could very well have easily been a character somewhere in SatAM or Underground at the very least, and funny enough without even changing his backstory all that much barring a few details. And quite frankly, this idea that things weren’t that grim in 90s before Shadow came along is pretty asinine and dishonest when you consider the entirety of the 90s-era of Sonic as a franchise, because much of the grim aspects were already there before Shadow was even on the drawing board.
 

Shadow just happens to be a staple of an old paradigm shift like a lot of things, and just as much a representation of his time as what came before him. And the stuff he brought with him isn’t any less alienating that the many directions the franchise went before or even after his debut.

It's a case by case basis, and yea, maybe I shouldn't worded that as if I was speaking for everyone because there are plenty of fans who grew up with the 90's and were perfectly fine with Shadow. The main point was to highlight how divisive of a character he was in general, not to say that he was a  bad fit for the series. 

As you said, he represented a huge paradigm shift for the series and influenced it for a couple of years which is what contributed to his divisive status. 

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9 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Time out.

And the truth is, he wouldn’t. If you rewind the clock back two decades, I find it hard to believe Shadow wouldn’t fit somewhere in the series. He could very well have easily been a character somewhere in SatAM or Underground at the very least, and funny enough without even changing his backstory all that much barring a few details. And quite frankly, this idea that things weren’t that grim in 90s before Shadow came along is pretty asinine and dishonest when you consider the entirety of the 90s-era of Sonic as a franchise, because much of the grim aspects were already there before Shadow was even on the drawing board.

The likes of Sonic SatAM and Underground are so far removed from the games that they might as well be Sonic in name only. Saying Shadow would fit in them and therefore things should be super grim is more unintentionally damning of him than anything.

In terms of the actual canon stuff that matters, the games, the darkest they really got back then was Sonic CD's Bad Futures, and even that's a lot more subtle in terms of its implications than "lol we shot a child in the back!!", despite encompassing the entirety of a stage's presentation. Not that I think Maria's death was a bad move period, but I think it could've been handled in a way that fit the series better, and without treading too far into SA1's own character death (though Tikal was more of a last-ditch sacrifice than anything). I've said this numerous times, but the bulk of SA2's gist is just ST reusing Burning Ranger's endgame, because I guess they figured nobody played Burning Rangers. But I think Burning Rangers' endgame has a better setup and resolution, and it's not like BR is devoid of darker elements itself either, because man, poor Tillis. I dunno. I used to think Shadow was utter pish, but I don't hate him as much as I used to now, I just think he lost a lot of impact once SEGA corporate saw money-signs in their eyes post SA2, with other canons like the comics left to pick up a lot of the slack. You can salvage stuff from his other appearances, with ironically Sonic 06 probably being one of my favourites for him, but it's very much salvaging stuff.

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I've got to agree with @Shadowlax here. It sounds less like Shadow had to change and more like you're trying to justify having giving up on the him. Shadow's character shouldn't have to be warped beyond recognition just because Sonic Team has no interest in being competent. 

Side Note: If Sonic had spent the 2010s chasing current trends, rather than 90s nostalgia, I think we'd have seen it leaning into the trappings of the Adventure era rather than trying to distance itself from them. Large, colorful casts of superpowered characters, each with their own interconnected stories to tell has kind of been the big thing for the last decade.

 

I've got to disagree. Shadow may have been conceived as a contrast to Sonic but he's always been his own character first. Even in SA2, the game that really played up Sonic vs Shadow, the rivalry is mainly from Sonic's side while Shadow is focused on doing his own thing. Shadow still acts as a foil to Sonic but, as with Knuckles, its just one aspect of who he is and far from the most defining. Unlike Metal Sonic or Jet, Shadow is perfectly capable of standing as a compelling character in his own right, and still would be even if Sonic didn't exist. 

 

Once again, I did not give up on him but I'm also not going to scream and rant on why isn't he being portrayed in the exact specific way I want him to be. You need to be open-minded about this type of stuff otherwise you're never going to be satisfied. I will call out when he's treated like shit, and I have, many times. I think he's trash in Boom, and trash in the comics but those are only two examples out of an entire decade. But, I do love his his initial appearance in IDW because it's the first time in a long time that him and Sonic have had a legit interesting dynamic after it felt like the  two had nothing really in common any more. 

You may feel like Shadow can stand completely on his own as a character and I agree with that, but being "Dark Sonic" is just as integral a part of his character as being his own person. It defeats the entire purpose of him looking similar to Sonic to begin with and he just becomes another character in the fold who just happens to look like Sonic. 

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2 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Side Note: If Sonic had spent the 2010s chasing current trends, rather than 90s nostalgia, I think we'd have seen it leaning into the trappings of the Adventure era rather than trying to distance itself from them. Large, colorful casts of superpowered characters, each with their own interconnected stories to tell has kind of been the big thing for the last decade.

I'm getting the mental image of Sonic Adventure Time and I'm not sure what to think.

Also if this devolves into an argument about Maria again I'm leaving the thread. lol

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

 I think he's trash in Boom

Why? I think he's funny? It's a good riff on how melodramatic he was in the 2000s.

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1 hour ago, Plasme said:

Why? I think he's funny? It's a good riff on how melodramatic he was in the 2000s.

He's trash because he literally serves no other purpose than as a meta joke. No interesting dynamics or personality traits to speak of.

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3 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

The likes of Sonic SatAM and Underground are so far removed from the games that they might as well be Sonic in name only.

Yeah, so are AoSTH, Sonic Boom, the Sonic OVA, and the Sonic Movie.
 

None of these subsets fully resemble the games, sometimes altering them to the point there’s only a vague semblance. So I’m not sure why this is somehow a unique case only when regarding SatAM and Underground when this is a thing that happens in just about any alternative setting of the franchise that still goes on to this current day.

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Saying Shadow would fit in them and therefore things should be super grim is more unintentionally damning of him than anything.

If only I actually said that last part, because the main point I was saying was that this series was flexible enough in the 90s that a character like Shadow wouldn’t be anywhere near as alienating as Kuzu was saying given how diverse things were back during that era and that the tone was already there to begin with in the franchise during the 90s long before Shadow even came into the picture (and had it flanderized with his own game).

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Yeah, so are AoSTH, Sonic Boom, the Sonic OVA, and the Sonic Movie.
 

None of these subsets fully resemble the games, sometimes altering them to the point there’s only a vague semblance. So I’m not sure why this is somehow a unique case only when regarding SatAM and Underground when this is a thing that happens in just about any alternative setting of the franchise that still goes on to this current day.

SatAM and Underground's approach were more relevant to my point. Not saying the others resemble the games any more than they do. 

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If only I actually said that last part, because the main point I was saying was that this series was flexible enough in the 90s that a character like Shadow wouldn’t be anywhere near as alienating as Kuzu was saying given how diverse things were back during that era and that the tone was already there to begin with in the franchise during the 90s long before Shadow even came into the picture (and had it flanderized with his own game).

I'm pretty sure Kuzu was discussing the game universe and how Shadow fits into the games primarily, not how he'd theoretically fit into the weird-ass take on the universe something like SatAM created; the furthest I feel like the thread moved to that from the off was the Archie discussion, but even that was closer to the games, moreso later on (which is what the discussion here focused on as far as I could tell - Flynn's run). The tone 'was already there in the 90's', sure, but it was mostly just overt in material very far divorced from the universe we're discussing. 

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1 hour ago, Tracker_TD said:

SatAM and Underground's approach were more relevant to my point. Not saying the others resemble the games any more than they do. 
 

That’s more cherry-picking than anything then.

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I'm pretty sure Kuzu was discussing the game universe and how Shadow fits into the games primarily, not how he'd theoretically fit into the weird-ass take on the universe something like SatAM created; the furthest I feel like the thread moved to that from the off was the Archie discussion, but even that was closer to the games, moreso later on (which is what the discussion here focused on as far as I could tell - Flynn's run). The tone 'was already there in the 90's', sure, but it was mostly just overt in material very far divorced from the universe we're discussing. 

I know what he said, and I’d like for you to do the same for what I was saying instead of directly quoting me out of context.

I directly quoted the part where he specifically said “But I can understand that if you grew up in the 90’s with Sonic, this type of stuff would feel extremely out of place a  alienating to you...”

To which I’m saying that is far from the case given the fact of the matter is that during the 90s it wasn’t just about the games that people pigeonhole that period of franchise as—90s Sonic had a wider range of multimedia spanning anywhere he could, such as three cartoons and two comic series among others that each had major differences from the games as much, and much of what people tend to associate with Shadow divisive parts was already there and not as divisive back then as they were post-SA2.
 

In other words, not all of us who grew up in the 90s would find it as alienating given what the franchise exposed us to as the 90s wasn’t strictly about the games for Sonic. Things were diverse enough that Shadow wouldn’t be anymore alienating than walking, talking Hot Dog People were in AoSTH.

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1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Yeah, so are AoSTH, Sonic Boom, the Sonic OVA, and the Sonic Movie.
 

 

I would just like to point out that the OVA is about as game accurate as the animations get.

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Just now, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

So is Sonic X, but you don’t really get any points just for having elements from the games.

I meant in terms of both tone and aesthetic, but yes.

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2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

He's trash because he literally serves no other purpose than as a meta joke. No interesting dynamics or personality traits to speak of.

That doesn't make him trash, it just means it doesn't suit your taste.

He's not supposed to be meaningful in Boom, he's supposed to appear in a few episodes to be a rival to Sonic and provide meta-humour He serves that role pretty well.

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17 minutes ago, Plasme said:

That doesn't make him trash, it just means it doesn't suit your taste.

He's not supposed to be meaningful in Boom, he's supposed to appear in a few episodes to be a rival to Sonic and provide meta-humour He serves that role pretty well.

Is this really something that needs to be pointed out? 

Besides that point, I've never heard a single positive thing about Boom incarnation, so I get the feeling he wasn't very liked to begin with.

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Is this really something that needs to be pointed out? 

Yeah it does, because 'trash' indicates bad quality, not subjective disagreement.

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42 minutes ago, Plasme said:

That doesn't make him trash, it just means it doesn't suit your taste.

He's not supposed to be meaningful in Boom, he's supposed to appear in a few episodes to be a rival to Sonic and provide meta-humour He serves that role pretty well.

Eh, he was more of a Season Finale villain thing.

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20 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Yeah it does, because 'trash' indicates bad quality, not subjective disagreement.

I do think it's bad quality though, but I think it goes without saying that it's my opinion and no one else's.

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5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Ok soapbox sadie, calm down. You literally missed the point of what I was saying and then changed the subject entirely. I didn't say that Shadow didn't fit the series, nor have I given up on anything. I said his character was stagnating. By the time 2010 rolled around, 06 aside, his character was roughly going nowhere and that was true for literally most of the cast as well. 

Then instead of needing to be changed...do something with them. That doesn't support your case of needing to be changed. That supports that they should do something with the characters. Infact given the time at the moment is " cash in on nostalgia " not changing him and doing things with specifically shadow might be a pretty good idea.

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Yes, I know Sega/ST sucks, I've literally known this since forever, I don't need to be told this. But I've learned it's important to not confuse their incompetence with my own personal biases and that their incompetence should be judged on a case by case basis, and not as a whole. Do I like how they're currently handling the series? Not at all. But I'm not a fucking employee at Sega and screaming into the empty void that is the internet within this toxic fanbase isn't really helpful either.  So I'm just gonna make my own judgments and go with the flow.

To be fair here.  And i'm not advocating for you to do this , I want to be clear. But classic fans did yell into the void and not only got the thing they want, in trying to appeal to them screwed up and removed whole parts of the franchise for long periods of time. So it worked.  The void yelling did work. You probably should do something healthy. But youtube man yelling about why sonic friends suck and the good ol' days got the job done.

Now lets get to my main point here, " But I've learned it's important to not confuse their incompetence with my own personal biases" , that's a adult reasoned mature take. A take that has come with time and maturity to understand that changes in direction in a franchise isn't always some sort of attack. The issue is, that change isn't immune to criticism, and the change isn't that good. Its actually the result of obfuscating issues rather than anything genuine IMO, because as soon as that became less viable , they just went back to nostalgia mining. My point being , that line, good healthy. Does not apply currently with thing is doing bad.

 

 

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Yes, Shadow CAN work, I don't need to be told this; but there are many different ways he can be used and none of them are inherently wrong (Except Boom, shit is trash). 

Hey man boom shadow had a cool... gloves and boots. ( Just want to again point out , that I do not blame anyone working on any boom anything for shadow kinda. Boom was supposed to be a bigger thing that expanded on shadow and it just didn't.  So like the cartoon version was based ....3 scenes from two video games instead of a larger story being built in the background of that cartoon. Boom shadow sucks ass , but he like the rest of boom kind of got the floor taken out from under them)

I don't think the current video game/comic shadow is being used correctly. And while I can't say it inherently wrong because yes on a cosmic scale nothing is objective. I can't to the massive disdain he has been getting as a good barometer that maybe its just not working for folks.

I welcome weird and wild interpretations. I have and still do advocate a 3d sonic reboot. I want them to reboot all of 3d sonic, starting with 1 and 2 remakes and change the stories dramatically. I want them to focus on the alien shit for shadow. I want them to expand on the echidna lore an do entirely new shit. I want them to actually do the metal sonic redemption arc they tried to do and gave up on. I want so much new shit ,  I want a reboot. I have read comics my entire life I am ok with people doing wild different shit. I like both the TT and TTG cartoons, I also like young justice. I can enjoy batman the brave and the bold and the white knight. I don't care about change. I care the change is bad. And I think a lot of the sonic fanbase is the same, at least when it comes to not gameplay. With how welcome movie sonic is an interpretation a full departure from a lot of sonic interpretations. A fanbase willing to welcome that into the fold and looks at current comic shadow and goes " nah that ain't it " might have less to do with change and more to do how the character has changed and why did that change need to happen.

But I also think its healthy not to blame yourself for being selfish in these situations, sometimes bad decision are made and they are just kind of bad. And its ok to call those things out. Shadow didn't need to change, sega is just bad at sonic.

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

You may feel like Shadow can stand completely on his own as a character and I agree with that, but being "Dark Sonic" is just as integral a part of his character as being his own person. It defeats the entire purpose of him looking similar to Sonic to begin with and he just becomes another character in the fold who just happens to look like Sonic. 

Considering the loud reaction to his recent comic interpetation. And recent idea's sega has had for him. The bolded might be why most people like him. He wasn't fated from the heavens to do battle with sonic. Even back in sa2, once you got past all the bullshit. He was just some dude who looks like sonic. He's a guy from another lets say " comic book " with different ideas and ways to carry himself and he just happens to look like a sonic character. He is very weird in the context of what sonic is, and got even weirder as time went on.  And that weirdness is why I think a lot of people like him.

So I dunno if sega feels like he needs to change, instead of trying to pair him down. Embrace the weirdness. Though " embrace the weirdness " is what I have been saying about the franchise for.. a while

 

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Is this really something that needs to be pointed out? 

Besides that point, I've never heard a single positive thing about Boom incarnation, so I get the feeling he wasn't very liked to begin with.

There are some who say boom shadow is ok because

1) They have never liked his character and that's what they think his character is

2) It is a comedy and he should not be taken seriously.

The latter I do not agree with, I mean yes the TV show is a comedy and should not be taken serious. But I mean that doesn't explain the game incarnation, but also TV show shadow isn't funny. No seriously, I recently watch those episodes , the jokes made about shadows character or shadow does to others for the most part aren't funny. I would argue they are the least funny episodes of the bunch. Boom Shadow has no personality , he's just aggressive. So none of the ideas bounced off of him even in joke form go anywhere.  And to be fair  , isn't there fault. The TV show folks were dealing with an incomplete product.

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57 minutes ago, Plasme said:

That doesn't make him trash, it just means it doesn't suit your taste.

He's not supposed to be meaningful in Boom, he's supposed to appear in a few episodes to be a rival to Sonic and provide meta-humour He serves that role pretty well.

That's why he isn't good

He doesn't have to be the most important character in the wolrd. But everyone else even the little guys serve some sort of purpose even comedically. Shadow serves none and even on a comedic level he does not function because of that. The meta-humor doesn't even work because the shadow we are witnessesing isn't the same shadow it works less because of that.

Hindsight is 2020 but we are currently in the year of everthing's on fire 2020, and last year 2019 seeing people be very critical of reducing shadow to just a rival. To meta commentary on the thing people seem to not focus to much on in regards to this character seems to be missing the mark.

You have this character who is super overyly serious to the degree in which sometimes he feels like he is out of another franchise, and you do nothing with that as a joke premise in the age of cinematic universes , feels like you missed free joke real estate. So much humor just...missed

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9 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

I'm glad someone else mentioned it as it's been something in the back of my mind for awhile now.

I still believe that the Mania and "Main" split would help with this. As much as I personally think the actual classic games had interesting plot and characters in it's own right, over the years many Classic fans want simple plot and characters instead. So why not have Mania stick with the simple but stylish feel, and the "main" titles  (whatever we end up calling them) go for the more story and character approach?

Because Sonic is based on a universal image of being fast, fun and stylishly paced and portrayed. Classics remain popular over modern titles because how ground breaking and overly ambitious with its gameplay without detracting from the true dynamic of the fast action factor and mastery of controlling the character. Shadow suffers sadly in being a alternative stray from that despite being exact template of sonics gamestyle,  his character ruined sonic for many people because he made the series to coventially long winded and pretentious with grit. Add to the fact that he has to copy Sonic for any chance of remaining relevant as a character in a sonic gameplay based game, it leaves him unreliable in being a unique experience to many sonic long running fans, even with his story.

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It doesn't have to always be serious either, I think a more balanced tone would be best. You can still have jokes, just know when is best to use them. Maybe that's simplifying things too much, but I don't think people would mind the jokes as much as long as there was something interesting around it.

I dont mind seriousness balanced with humor, take shadow for example. Shadow represents a dry wit coupled with his smug indifference and arrogance. It would be much better if his written in a way where his character doesnt suffer from being made the joke of a situation hes serious in though, make his honor evident from how hes written in his own ways than about his ways. The archie series I hate because shadow treated like knuckles as a single target mockery of on character trait, being angsty or to sonic a crybaby. Shadow should be the witty snarky one who's maturity is always allowing to mock and glib at things always foolish around him plus his ego Is always trying to stay on top of things so he has a sense of self importance and will belittle someone trying to upstage him. Sure characters can make fun if that, but i expect shadow to do the same thing with greater awareness on what's happening, he was to much of a patsy to everyone's making fun of him, even knuckles roasts him and everyone roasts knuckles.

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I find Shadow in a very interesting situation. He feels like the type prime for a spin off series so he doesn't hog the spotlight from Sonic (My comparison would be Mega Man vs Mega Man Zero), but due to the reception of his game this likely won't happen. It really is funny in a sad way, his popularity brought him back from the dead, but it also keeps him from being in the newer games as often.

Shadows popularity is grossly misconceived and misunderstood. Shadow is popular but hes not a main star of the series like tails or knuckles. Shadow represents a opportunity for fan appeal but due to his controversial ties, hes held back and acts like a black sheep as a popular main stay. Hes not in many new games because its most likely shadow viewed as a indifferent and unlikely character to market to sonic future games, and has to be basically featured with sonic the main lead in mind as a clone or as a rival, I think this limits on how much he has a stable reputation with the fans imo. I also think sega has given up on shadow to, they probably dont care for him and push him aside from important roles in plots like forces, and that's because they hate his backstory and abandoned it, all he does it tie to sonic plot basically. At least Knuckles is still around to play as sonics core companion with amy and knuckles, shadow doesnt even play a important role in sonics life unless it's a side game or a guest appearance.

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As much as I like Shadow, I'd rather he be used well occasionally than shoved into every game but has no reason to be there. I think that it's natural for characters to rotate based on where Sonic's adventures take him, and even more so now that we are missing all of the spin off titles we used to get.

That's funny, I believe shadow needs to be in more games to stabilize his popularity and stop being misinterpreted by fans as useless or important. Hed be alot less controversial if he actually did as much important things as Sonic and Eggman and was actually well written but sonic team cant seem to have the ability to do that.

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As for being added to Forces, I wasn't against his episode existing. I found it a unique way (for Sonic) of giving him something to do without him having to overshadow Sonic in the main story.

Shadow has never overshadowed Sonic, even in his own debut. 

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I think if they had fleshed it out a bit more it could have been great. I think having someone to bounce off besides Sonic was interesting (even if they kind of did it in 06).

Sonic and Shadows dynamic is getting boring. See Shadow being just a foil to Sonic is what's popular and the only thing that keeps shadow from dissolving in unconsciousness from after his debut. Which is shame, rouge has more independent emphasis on straying on her own without being tied to sonic or knuckles than Shados with the former. Must be the why shes more success with nostalgia only fans than shadow.

22 hours ago, DabigRG said:

So what the comics and his later appearances in the Dreamcast & early Modern era were?

 Comic were faulty to me, shadow had more character exploration, but it was badly rushed and made him look more a flanderized jerk when hes being just like his sa2 self to certain characters. He was also the the most incompetent and somehow more hardheaded than knuckles. I like my shadow cool,  competent and ready and prepared for anything. As for the games, he had moments where he ended things the way I liked it but had to depend on sonic himself carrying his arcs because without sonic, shados would be no where near as popular as alone.

19 hours ago, Iko said:

I admit Shadow has been my favorite Sonic character for a while, and that while lasted until he returned after his sacrifice. I really liked his role in SA2, as a "Dark Sonic" first, then developing and showing complex sides of his personality and backstory, and finally become an hero. After his return, he became the edgy guy who's everywhere because he's popular, and I don't like that type of characters.

Really though? You're instantly perceiving something about Shadow that justifies the opposite of his popularity, which is truly divisive and criticism based. Shadow I wouldnt say hes more popular than the main trio anymore, Japanese poll wise or no. He doesn't connect to any meaningful nostalgia demographics anymore, even Rouge has more going for her in fan media than Shadow, who's basically a sonic vs or shadow yaoi Fantasy niche. This is based on what I seen.

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Today, he's along with Amy and Metal Sonic one of my least favorite characters in the franchise (I'm still ok with them, I don't hate them or anything, but that's it, just ok... It's that I'm not a big fan of characters who are "Sonic but edgy", "Sonic but evil robot" or "Sonic but girl").

I think your over simplying their concepts, implying their characters are like sonic on a personality and individual stand point is also wrong. But they do represent foils to sonic character.

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I liked him because he was supposed to be an one off, but now he became one of the main characters, and SEGA clearly has no idea of what to do with him, they use him only because he looks cool and it helps them to sell more copies of their games.

I dont consider shadow a main character of the series, that implies he has universal utility in being a core focus in any game sonic is in. Like say Duncan's from the total drama series, Duncan's basically shares the main male lead role and face of the franchise along with owen.

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On a side note, I like a lot his hover shoes and the way he skates instead of running; I wish it was used in gameplay by making him the only character able to use the surface of the water as a platform (land/walk on it even at slower speed).

Yeah that was dope. I wish they brought back his saw movement, that was the only time I felt shadow was the only rival to sonic that took his own sense of speed and applied his own way to be a true equal to him.

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So I'll make a small contribution to this thread and share why Shadow matter to me.

In short, it is because unlike every other character who falls into the whimsical adventure that gets weighty at points (at least when not stuck on the stand-up comedian stage) point of Sonic has, Shadow offers a completely different look at Sonic's world. If you want to tell a story of whimsy, legend, and adventure you go to Sonic, but if you want to tell a story of character, purpose, and questioning the world you go to Shadow. To me, the reason this works is because despite being "Dark Sonic #n" the one core trait of Sonic that Shadow lacks is the devil may care out look. Sonic lives in the moment, never looks back, and doesn't dwell on regrets. He is short sighted and naïve in that way where as to Shadow everything matters. Shadow is constantly thinking in his best portrayals, both about his place in any given scenario as well as the best (read most pragmatic) way to resolve it. This everything matters approach is in such stark contrast to Sonic who embraces the it doesn't matter mentality. So to me, when Shadow is present, I expect him to have the POV as it changes the narrative tone of the story and opens unique storytelling possibilities and attitudes you would never get when Sonic is the lead.

Continuing that line of thought, and this will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I don't believe Shadow should be an in game rival of Sonic's. He should be an in studio rival whose games and ideas push the boundaries of narrative for the franchise forcing Sonic Team to push bounds of adventure, wonder, and legends. Sonic and Shadow should support each other by making the other always have to be better so we the consumer gets the best of both of them. When I see people say that console wars are foolish, I only agree so much as the antics of fanboys, but competition itself pushes the envelope in a way that can not be matched by just putting out a product on time. the need to out perform your competition allows your pride to drive you to put out the absolute best you can and I feel if you had a Shadow Team led by Maekawa that you could create that internally rivalry among the dev teams that would drive the franchise to far greater heights.

Maybe I'm crazy, but what Shadow can do for this franchise is so massive I just can't ignore him. He matters a lot to me, bot has the character who entertains me with his unique stories, and for the potential he has to elevate the entire IP to greater heights.

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