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10 minutes ago, Almar said:

Be honest, enough of the vocal/online attitude towards Adventure Era/Intended Amy roots largely in meme/Western interpretations like Sonic Shorts and Adventure's dub combined with Westerners that don't "Get" what she's supposed to be.

She wasn't meant to be some wise mature warrior maiden. Not level-headed. In many ways she was just a younger and girl Sonic (who if you recall was meant to be a punkass, not Jesus). She could lead her little posse in Heroes when she was out smashing things since they were Cream (little girl not assertive enough to say no) and Big (doesn't give a damn). That's a far cry from being a pencil pusher in some rebel army. 

Well said. Adventure-era Amy is such a specifically japanese type of character that it appears difficult for many westerners to "get" her. In Japan, Adventure-era Amy is basically a well established stereotype, while in the west, a lot of people find her odd, annoying and borderline offensive.

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Heroes Amy I didn't mind, I think they struck an okay balance of her keeping that stereotypical but colourful personality but still allowing her to be competent enough to justify her presence. Team Rose were obviously the ragtag misfit group of the cast in that game, with all their ambitions for chasing the main plot being more personal and of indirect consequence (the Chaotix edge close in that regard too, though their battle largely conveys them as the 'bullies' of the feud so to speak). All of them have a gratifying sense from proving their worth in the end, even if Amy's 'goal' is the least accomplished since of course it's just chasing Sonic again, making her the 'big sister/heart' of the group whose keeping everyone's spirits up was vital to keep her important to the dynamic here, you could buy characters like Cream and Big would need that boost at times.

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Yea, that's something I've come to realize lately as well; Adventure-era Amy is an extremely Japanese specific character. This is kind of went over everyone's heads though at the time, so she they made her extremely abrasive and most fan content was just mocking those traits. Pretty sure when she was designed, they intended for her to be "cute" and lovable. 

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Yea, that's something I've come to realize lately as well; Adventure-era Amy is an extremely Japanese specific character. This is kind of went over everyone's heads though at the time, so she they made her extremely abrasive and most fan content was just mocking those traits. Pretty sure when she was designed, they intended for her to be "cute" and lovable. 

Well, yeah. Almost every personality we've seen during the Adventure (from Sonic's to Shadow's to Knuckles' to Blaze's to Amy's) wasn't anything different from what we'd see in, say, an average shonen anime during that time. It's just that some had an easier time translating over in the West compared to Japan. Hell even though I'd make the argument that Amy has more fans than detractors in the Western fanbase nowadays, I've never really seen or heard of any divisiveness about her from the fans in Japan.

Quote

Yeah, your debut sticks with you. Unless you're knuckles. Or Silver. Or Vector. Or

In all fairness, so people still DO hold Silver's debut appearance against him. But then again, some Sonic fans still hold Knuckles portrayal in games that happened after his debut against him, same with Shadow or Amy or comic/toon characters like Sally or hell, even Tails nowadays.

It's a very weird & tricky thing because a character's debut will deliver first impressions for many people, but at the same time, there's people inside & outside the Sonic fandom that'll prop up anything that portrays a character in a negative light whether it's before or after their debut as a reason to dislike them & disregard any positives they bring to the table. Amy isn't alone in this, but she has been one of the worst victims of this due to the fact that there had been a decent amount of Sonic content that didn't exactly handle her the best, especially during the 2000s.

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Amy is a strange case however because she didn't really get much of a fanfared debut. Most of the Sonic cast are known for getting pushed as the 'big new character' when they first appear, with their arc and prominence in promoting more or less making them co-lead to Sonic. Even Cream is the first character you unlock in Sonic Advance 2. A lot of the most iconic characters in other medias are similar, eg. Sally, Chris. This tends to make their first impressions much more of a 'make or break' situation.

Amy on the other hand was a slow burner. She wasn't really the co-star of Sonic CD, even among the NPCs, Metal was the more promoted new addition. She was just in obscure spin offs for the remainder of the classic era, not even being fully playable until Adventure, and even then she doesn't really get a game she's top billing. Advance 1 was probably the nearest to being her equal billing with Sonic and even then she's the last on the roster. As such Amy kinda ended up one of those character that was just accepted as small but crucial element of the franchise. I think this is why most fans who aren't annoyed by Amy are mostly on the 'Oh, yeah, she's cool I guess' field with her.

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3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Amy is a strange case however because she didn't really get much of a fanfared debut. Most of the Sonic cast are known for getting pushed as the 'big new character' when they first appear, with their arc and prominence in promoting more or less making them co-lead to Sonic. Even Cream is the first character you unlock in Sonic Advance 2. A lot of the most iconic characters in other medias are similar, eg. Sally, Chris. This tends to make their first impressions much more of a 'make or break' situation.

Amy on the other hand was a slow burner. She wasn't really the co-star of Sonic CD, even among the NPCs, Metal was the more promoted new addition. She was just in obscure spin offs for the remainder of the classic era, not even being fully playable until Adventure, and even then she doesn't really get a game she's top billing. Advance 1 was probably the nearest to being her equal billing with Sonic and even then she's the last on the roster. As such Amy kinda ended up one of those character that was just accepted as small but crucial element of the franchise. I think this is why most fans who aren't annoyed by Amy are mostly on the 'Oh, yeah, she's cool I guess' field with her.

I could be wrong about this but wasn't Cream's inclusion in Adv2 more of a "promoting Sonic Heroes" thing? But yeah, I can agree to Amy being a very weird case in that regard. Unlike pretty much every other character in the series except the likes of Big The Cat, Marine etc. Amy has never really been giving a "top billing" role so to speak in the games, usually being put on the sidelines for another character that gets more spotlight & I guess part of that comes down to that never really being Amy's role in the franchise. It is something I would like to see change, but that's for another thread.

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5 minutes ago, D.H said:

I could be wrong about this but wasn't Cream's inclusion in Adv2 more of a "promoting Sonic Heroes" thing? But yeah, I can agree to Amy being a very weird case in that regard. Unlike pretty much every other character in the series except the likes of Big The Cat, Marine etc. Amy has never really been giving a "top billing" role so to speak in the games, usually being put on the sidelines for another character that gets more spotlight & I guess part of that comes down to that never really being Amy's role in the franchise. It is something I would like to see change, but that's for another thread.

That's probably a significant reason why as you said; she was never meant to be a major character ala Tails and Knuckles. But she became so ingrained with the series over time that it's hard to picture her not being around. She became the de-facto fourth member of Team Sonic in the fandom, and eventually Sega caught on and just started promoting her along with the Classic Trio. 

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Gonna address these rapid fire because encumbered to swipe up the screen for exact quotes

1. I'm of two minds on Amy not fitting today's standards in that you probably shouldn't be too too concerned about that if you're not doing much with her anyway. A little bit of good can help sure, but we likely wouldn't be having this conversation.

2. Amy being a damsel is certainly something that's very uncommon to consider beyond the nitty gritty of her debut. Her feelings for Sonic and her tendency to be annoying for some take far more precedent among other things.

3. Part of the appeal Knuckles among other characters had that Amy overall kinda lacks is something and somewhere to BE in the series, even if that sometimes leans more on setting than the other thing. All she really has to her name is her infatuation, occasionally her craziness, and her hammer--which considering an apparent dislike of it, well we've kinda got an uphill battle.

4. Amy's role in the Restoration was essentially being customer service for one of those charity organizations with the Tshirts. 

5. Tangle isn't associated with much of the negativity Amy(or Charmy and Marine for that matter) gets because she was openly marketed as a "REAL kickbutt female character" unlike the ones that came before her and you don't even have to hear her voice.

2 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

She was also the only character who didn't get captured in Advance 2, so it's a give and take.

Assuming ZERO wasn't holding her in the Special Zone for some reason.

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

. Team Rose were obviously the ragtag misfit group of the cast in that game, with all their ambitions for chasing the main plot being more personal and of indirect consequence (the Chaotix edge close in that regard too, though their battle largely conveys them as the 'bullies' of the feud so to speak). 

I like how that fight was primarily down to Espio being shady af and Cream(and thereby Big) rightfully getting angry. And Charmy just sorta rolls with it, the little shit. :lol:

36 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Amy is a strange case however because she didn't really get much of a fanfared debut. Most of the Sonic cast are known for getting pushed as the 'big new character' when they first appear, with their arc and prominence in promoting more or less making them co-lead to Sonic. 

 

Amy on the other hand was a slow burner. She wasn't really the co-star of Sonic CD, even among the NPCs, Metal was the more promoted new addition. She was just in obscure spin offs for the remainder of the classic era, not even being fully playable until Adventure, and even then she doesn't really get a game she's top billing. Advance 1 was probably the nearest to being her equal billing with Sonic and even then she's the last on the roster. As such Amy kinda ended up one of those character that was just accepted as small but crucial element of the franchise. I think this is why most fans who aren't annoyed by Amy are mostly on the 'Oh, yeah, she's cool I guess' field with her.

No, she really wasn't.

Hell, as I really starting getting into the franchise, I had two questions: 1. What animal is she? and 2. Da heck is Sonic CD?

27 minutes ago, D.H said:

I could be wrong about this but wasn't Cream's inclusion in Adv2 more of a "promoting Sonic Heroes" thing? But yeah, I can agree to Amy being a very weird case in that regard. Unlike pretty much every other character in the series except the likes of Big The Cat, Marine etc. Amy has never really been giving a "top billing" role so to speak in the games, usually being put on the sidelines for another character that gets more spotlight & I guess part of that comes down to that never really being Amy's role in the franchise. It is something I would like to see change, but that's for another thread.

It was because she would help make the game feel fresher compared to it's predecessor. She also doubled as an easy mode.

Heck, wasn't Marine on the cover of Rush Adventure and promoted as a major player for the initial Archie tie-in?

 

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1 hour ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Amy also help keeps the Sonic series from being nothing but action men and women which I get tired of seeing. 

Isn't she technically an Action Girl  too though?

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20 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Isn't she technically an Action Girl  too though?

Amy's more love, shopping and being romantic but in Boom or IDW  she's a action girl.

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3 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Amy's more love, shopping and being romantic but in Boom or IDW  she's a action girl.

You know characters can do more than one thing, right? If those three seasons of Totally Spies I watched taught me anything, it's that being a girly girl doesn't impede action at all. 

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You know characters can do more than one thing, right?

I love seeing my favorite all characters hobbies and how those do or do not contrast with their main narrative role.

They may seem real.

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12 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I love seeing my favorite all characters hobbies and how those do or do not contrast with their main narrative role.

The may seem real.

Same, I like seeing hero characters who have their own proactive hobbies and goals besides 'doing hero stuff' (or you can reconstruct it like Boom Sonic where 'doing hero stuff' IS their hobby :P).

Like I would have loved something like say, a comical story with Bunnie trying to create her dream of becoming a hair stylist and maybe some minor antagonist interfering with it. Or Omega going nuts waiting for more badniks to shoot.

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18 minutes ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

Doesn't Boom Amy predate Relic, though?

I know right? Isn't that funny?

 

7 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Same, I like seeing hero characters who have their own proactive hobbies and goals besides 'doing hero stuff' (or you can reconstruct it like Boom Sonic where 'doing hero stuff' IS their hobby :P).

Like I would have loved something like say, a comical story with Bunnie trying to create her dream of becoming a hair stylist and maybe some minor antagonist interfering with it. Or Omega going nuts waiting for more badniks to shoot.

There was that a cooking backup story with Sally and I think Mighty Ray that didn't get released.

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41 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

You know characters can do more than one thing, right? If those three seasons of Totally Spies I watched taught me anything, it's that being a girly girl doesn't impede action at all. 

I never said they couldn't you can like cute things mainly and still take part in the action.

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I don't think Amy having a crush on Sonic is really the problem most have.

Problem is, while Boom (and to some extent, IDW) handle it more like this:

4AF18D53-E30A-47CF-9F74-D9A8F70D40F9.jpeg.479d0113dcce1addfb5b358fce5c1b12.jpeg

Or this:

A38C6398-EE8F-44AF-B468-53FC47E305A6.jpeg.d62f08ffb42e6b38321fa605e0c3854b.jpeg

The game version ended up more like this:

32FC9622-0D1E-4939-BEFD-E99ED542F01D.jpeg.efb4b8a96cdc1097449f9857e7cb2f0e.jpeg

As for IDW, she's been fairly active there. Yes, she does coordinate the Restoration, but she gets out in the field a lot, too. 

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Those are 3 of the same image type yes...?

11 minutes ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

Problem is, while Boom (and to some extent, IDW) handle it more like this:

It may not even be accurate to say that...

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@DabigRG - Too much to quote that's unrelated but wanted to respond  

Re: Blaze and Cream

Totally.

Glad you like the potential of Blaze & Amy as a duo... you're right that Amy doesn't need to be a sidekick, and actually I take back where I was going with Cream, because she works as Amy's friend or sidekick, too. I liked them in Advance 3, they've had a couple of good moments otherwise I think although can't remember anything specifically but must've had moments in Sonic X.... I don't think they've meaningfully interacted in IDW, and I think that's part of the issue is that Amy has felt pretty isolated. Even when she's leading the Restoration, it's her just talking at a room of characters or Sonic, and just delivering exposition. There's not many new relationship bridges being built toward Amy, but that could change.... she did just have a full issue adventure (with great art!) fighting in the field with Tails versus the fat monster from Lost World during the Metal Virus, and that was pretty cool. 

Either way I think it'd be good to have more organic female friendships between the characters so that every interaction between them doesn't feel like "Girls Rule!" and Amy could be the key to opening that up more.

If Sonic games/stories keep up the Teams of 3 motif, I think I'd take Team Rose and swap Big for Blaze. Keeps the cute "ABC" but now has at least one 'badass' character instead of an entirely 'cute' team. (Some characters like Sonic are both, others are more one than the other like Cream)

Team Rose is my favorite of the team names besides Chaotix, but you could make the team more equal with a name that plays on the ABC thing. Team Alpha. Team Alpha Rose. The Alpha Girls. Eh maybe that's just a nickname they give themselves, I'll stick for now with proposing changes I actually really believe in. 

Team Rose

Amy, Blaze, Cream. 

Amy Rose — The leader. The passionate fangirl. The lifelong enthusiast with a big empathetic heart, and an equally strong fury when her friends are threatened. She's like Blossom in Powerpuff Girls.

Playstyle: Technical

Existing Abilities: Hammer jump and Piko smash.

New Skill: Spell cast.  This makes Amy a new style of gameplay in Sonic that's already proven to work in other games. Button brings up menu, doesn't pause gameplay, costs rings. You can find new spell pages hidden in levels, and in special stages.

"RPG menu character" could be used for anyone, but here's why I like it for Amy — it honors her character development (becoming more of an organizer who brings people together) while also calling back to her origins (debuting in the game with magic time travel and a chained up little planet, plus the tarot/mysticism aspect from her Sonic Jam and Sonic CD bios), and it is not an inferior move of another character, but wholly unique to hers. Amy lacks a clearly defined moveset beyond the hammer moves from Adventure and Heroes and Advance 3. And, with respect, "Hammer Girl" is a fine start but it just isn't enough. I think she's all about the "Tools" but not in a mechanical way like Tails, but a meta-spiritual way, like Amy.

Amy Rose casting magic spells would be both New and Surprising, but it doesn't come out of nowhere and it's clearly built on what's come before.

Blaze the Cat— The power. The brooding protector. The guarded heart, hiding herself with caution to guard mysterious secrets. She's like Buttercup in Powerpuff Girls.

Playstyle: Power

Existing Abilities: Hover, Fire Boost/Fireballs 

New Skill: Kick flip. Her other abilities are all tied to her Sol magic, which has a cooldown timer. The kick flip is her one ability just as a cat, and reveals to us that, when the chips are down, Blaze is a street-fighter. She's got her Sol magic abilities so she uses them, but even if she weren't a magic princess, she's still got the mindset that she would kick your ass, anyway. I think Blaze is a winner, even if she has to kick and scratch to get what she wants.

You might be thinking it would make just as much sense, or more, to swap Amy and Blaze's styles and new skills (Blaze learning witch spells seems more suited to her existing powers and portrayal, and Amy's hammer does seem like a power ability) but the reason I didn't is because I think this way is truer to the overall spirit of each character, and especially in how to define them relative to each other.

Cream & Cheese — The speedster. The sweet child. The innocent with an unflappable sense of carefree fun, although has an most extreme rage if pushed to it. She's like Bubbles in Powerpuff Girls.

Playstyle: Speed

Existing Abilities: Flying with her big rabbit ears, Chao Attacks

New Skill: Bunny Hop. This is more of a refinement on her existing move-set. She uses her ear-flapping flying to push herself forward with Boost-level speed, and her big bunny feet extended out which destroys enemies or boxes.  

Cheese would be automated at first, for new players, so he's just kind of like buzzing around you at all times, and automatically homing in on any enemies on screen to take them out before you even get there. You can take over his movements at any time or just redirect him with the R-stick. Cheese would have a cooldown, and can get tired quicker if he's traveling further distances around the screen. When Cheese is tired and recovering in his cooldown animation, if you continue running and jumping, he returns to floating beside you but stationary and panting. When he's ready again, he stands up straight and resumes. However, if you stop when he's tired, and press down or something, Cream can give Cheese a quick cuddle/hug that insantly restores him. 

The idea with Cream & Cheese is to make her the easiest character to play, so she's over-powered with the Chao Attacks and invincible speed bursts. Cream's bunny hop doesn't have a cooldown, so you can really "cheese" through this hypothetical game by just spamming bunny hop, letting Cheese clear your path, and stopping for brief seconds to give him a super quick hug before continuing on. 

(Again, you could swap these all around. If you give Cream the ability to call in Gemerl, she could be the Power character, or she could be more about flying, and make Blaze the speed character. I can see an argument for any of these characters in any of the playstyles, but I gave it some thought and feel these are the ones that would best accentuate each character's strengths and uniqueness.)

And the other alignments, without going into it:

Team Sonic

Sonic the Hedgehog - speed

Miles "Tails" Prower the Kitsune - technical

Knuckles the Echidna - power

Team Dark

Shadow the Hedgehog - speed

Silver the Hedgehog - technical

Metal Sonic - power

Team Chaotix

Rouge the Bat - technical  (sorry Charmy I think Rouge is better for these guys, and she really needs new friends too)

Espio the Chameleon - speed

Vector the Crocodile  - power

Team Rose

Amy Rose - technical 

Blaze the Cat - power

Cream the Rabbit with Cheese the Chao - speed

Team Leftovers

Big the Cat - technical 

Mighty the Armadillo - power

Ray the Flying Squirrel - speed

Team Destructix

Fang the Sniper, aka Nack the Weasel- technical

Bean the Dynamite - speed

Bark the Polar Bear - power

Team Tiny

Charmy Bee - speed

Light Chao - technical

Dark Chao - power

Team Machine

Neo Metal Sonic - speed

Omega - power

Gemerl - technical 

Team Royale

Princess Elise - power

Princess Sara - speed

Princess Sally with NICOLE - technical

Team Could You Imagine if Sega Actually Leveraged The Existing Sonic Character IPs They Already Own?

Antoine the Coyote - speed

Bunnie Rabbot - power

Rotor the Walrus - technical 

Team People Would Lost Their Actual Minds, Especially People Who Want More Female Characters In the Franchise

Sticks the Badger - power

Tangle the Lemur - speed

Whisper the Wolf - technical

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