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2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And that's my point; is her main worth as a character not in what she does or her own goals, but in how she motivates others to act?

I mean, that's the basis for a selfless character and hero. Are you going to complain about MLK's speeches because all it did was motivate others?

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4 minutes ago, Misfit The Hedgehog said:

I mean, that's the basis for a selfless character and hero. Are you going to complain about MLK's speeches because all it did was motivate others?

Are you seriously trying to equate a fictional female character with a real life civil rights activist?

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8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Are you seriously trying to equate a fictional female character with a real life civil rights activist?

Far from it. I'm using a real-life situation to make you understand where I'm coming from. 

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Just now, Misfit The Hedgehog said:

Far from it. I'm using a real-life situation to make you understand where I'm coming from. As you may know, art imitates life.

What you just said is a false equivalence; what the hell does Amy Rose, a fictional female character from Sonic the Hedgehog, have to do with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. a real life civil rights activist? What point are you trying to make and that connection is there to make this huge leap in logic.

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24 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Are you seriously trying to equate a fictional female character with a real life civil rights activist?

Yeah, I about to say, holy shit.

Then again, his rival is apparently a correlation for an interloper, so :shrug:

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16 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

What you just said is a false equivalence; what the hell does Amy Rose, a fictional female character from Sonic the Hedgehog, have to do with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. a real life civil rights activist? What point are you trying to make and that connection is there to make this huge leap in logic.

No, you're the one who is trying to make this big leap in logic that's not as big as you're making it. It's called a real-life connection. They teach you in school how to do those in argumentative essays with fictional stories to get in the character's head and world. There's no "equivalence". Wtf are you talking about?

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4 minutes ago, Misfit The Hedgehog said:

No, you're the one who is trying to make this big leap in logic that's not as big as you're making it. It's called a real-life connection. They teach you in school how to do those in argumentative essays with fictional stories to get in the character's head and world. There's no "equivalence". Wtf are you talking about?

Perhaps using him specifically was a tipping point that could've been avoided.

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I'm going to leave this topic now for the sake of my sanity, because this is a subject that has no business here and I have no interest in dignifying it. 

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11 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Perhaps using him specifically was a tipping point that could've been avoided.

Tell me how I was wrong. I don't mean that in an arrogant-"prove me wrong" way. I actually want to know so I know how to avoid this in the future. Because I honestly didn't mean it in THAT way ( even though something tells me that the other dude knew I didn't, but still, he/she might've really took it the wrong way)

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22 minutes ago, Misfit The Hedgehog said:

 

 

Tell me how I was wrong. I don't mean that in an arrogant-"prove me wrong" way. I actually want to know so I know how to avoid this in the future. Because I honestly didn't mean it in THAT way ( even though something tells me that the other dude knew I didn't, but still, he/she might've really took it the wrong way)

Perhaps using someone more in line either demographic or personality wise could've gotten the same point across? Might even help someone learn something, depending on how lesser known.

Someone fictional is optional as well.

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Basically, despite the fact that Amy is much more involved in the action now, and "independent"  the topic's main subject is how that she has lost her interesting traits and feels her being more involved in the action makes her "boring". 

 

That.....can't be true. Amy's last playable appearance in a main series game was 06. She didn't become a boring character unti either generations, lost world, or forces, which she all did nothing in.

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15 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

That.....can't be true. Amy's last playable appearance in a main series game was 06. She didn't become a boring character unti either generations, lost world, or forces, which she all did nothing in.

Yeah if anything I think her playable segregation was one of the most satisfying originally. I LOVE her unique gameplay in Sonic Advance 1, and how she is essentially the 'lethal joke character'. It really fits a character who tries extra hard to keep up with Sonic and prove her spunk despite technically being the 'normal' one among a load of deformed guys with special powers.

I suppose this also makes her more intelligent current depiction more relevant (it's easy to forget that Amy wasn't originally just 'AMY SMASH!!!' with her hammer after how most interpretations after conveyed her), but if anything she fits more as such in the actual combat part of things.

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13 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

That.....can't be true. Amy's last playable appearance in a main series game was 06. She didn't become a boring character unti either generations, lost world, or forces, which she all did nothing in.

I'm mostly speaking on the whole here, counting things like the comics, Boom, and IDW. She doesn't do anything in the games anymore, so it's not really relevant to talk about. 

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4 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

Considering the games had degraded anyone not named Sonic or Eggman into Sonic worshippers that can't do jack without him, that complaint isn't unique to Amy.

This.

Its hard to draw too many conclusions from Forces, Gens and Lost Word simply because the extended cast hasn't really been given a role. Outside of Eggman and Tails... and maybe Silver, the rest of the cast hasn't had the opportunity or screen time to show much of anything in terms of character traits.

 

Amy has been relegated to narrative bench-warmer. They contribute next to nothing and were never intended to (for these games). And when they are allowed to contribute, its mostly just to raise the stakes for someone else. Without an active role in the story there are only so many conclusions we can come to here.

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I also don't like the new Amy that much. I've never been a big fan of her, but now especially it feels as if she's shoehorned into the main cast and her contribute to the game's story is not much different than what Tails could have done.

Amy used to be a secondary support character, not a main one... and I think it was a better suit for her. People keep bringing her talks to "bad guys" in Sonic Adventure as reference of her former personality, but I'm not really convinced that it was really the case.

I played SA1 ages ago, so I didn't remember precisely... because of this I watched the cutscenes of Gamma's story on youtube, and I think that Amy's actions aren't the trigger of Gamma turning good... also I'm pretty sure that Tails or even Sonic himself in the same situation would have acted in a similar way as her.

Gamma had a Tikal vision the moment he got Froggy with the emerald inside... also, he looked sadly at E103 when the other robots who failed to get Froggy were teleported away, because E103 contains the other flicky brother. The consciousness of the flicky inside him started to emerge when he touched Froggy with the emerald, or maybe it was a thing since the beginning because he was flawed, who knows... Amy's interaction is not the trigger.

In fact, the first sentence Amy says to him is "Go away!", not exactly a nice sentence (and in the rest of the discussion during the prison scene, Amy talks with a cool attitude, similar to Sonic).

Sonic Battle is an example of a similar situation where the whole cast of characters acts to Emerl similar to how Amy did to Gamma in SA1. Sonic protects and frees flickies and other animals since his debut game.

That scene on the Egg Carrier when Amy stops Gamma from attacking Sonic is pretty sweet, but I'm sure that other characters would have done similar things in the same situation, it's not because of Amy's personality.

Now, a more appropriate scene to highlight Amy's former (and IMO better) personality is the scene when she sneaks into Prison Island and frees Sonic from jail in SA2. She still shows the crush by joking about the marriage, but she also shows being surprisingly competent and useful, but a bit crazy too.

Now she sits near a computer and searches for informations, plans stuff, coordinates people and all... meh, it feels a bit forced and flat; Tails and Rouge would be more suited to do that stuff, part time along with their other traits. Being overly "mature" is a bit out of character IMO, she feels like a whole different character completely now.

Also, to people who (at the times of Sega Forums mostly) complained that Cream "stolen" some traits of Amy's personality and made her more bland... I always thought it was not true, but ironically it's starting to become true recently, especially in some panels of IDW Sonic (I didn't read it but I had the chance to see some panels, and I also occasionally read stuff in the dedicated thread so I know more or less what's going on). I think they got Cream's personality pretty right in the comics, but occasionally there are moments where she acts more like Amy, like that scene when she brings tea to Amy and cheers her up with lots of optimism and "you are a hero" thing... that's just a very Amy thing. But I don't care much about comic characterization since comics are not canon, I just hope it doesn't become a trend in the main games too, give the optimism and trust in others traits back to Amy and let Cream be her own character (I remember that in Sonic Rush the two coexisted without overlapping... I get that there was a crazy yandere fangirl scene of Amy but there also was a talk of her about friendship that helped Blaze to change her personality and open herself up to others).

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4 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yeah if anything I think her playable segregation was one of the most satisfying originally. I LOVE her unique gameplay in Sonic Advance 1, and how she is essentially the 'lethal joke character'. It really fits a character who tries extra hard to keep up with Sonic and prove her spunk.

I suppose this also makes her more intelligent current depiction more relevant (it's easy to forget that Amy wasn't originally just 'AMY SMASH!!!' with her hammer after how most interpretations after conveyed her).

This is getting to what I was referring to before; Amy's contributions are generally seen as "minor" in the games she participates in, so people probably don't see any merit in her personality traits beyond "Loving Sonic". 

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1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

I'm mostly speaking on the whole here, counting things like the comics, Boom, and IDW. She doesn't do anything in the games anymore, so it's not really relevant to talk about. 

Yeah, but Adventure 2 aside, Amy was always involved in the action, even in things like Riders. It's not like she became more involved or anything. Amy's main contribution in IDW (fighting Metal Sonic) was literally a homage to Heroes, where she did the exact same thing. 

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11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This is getting to what I was referring to before; Amy's contributions are generally seen as "minor" in the games she participates in, so people probably don't see any merit in her personality traits beyond "Loving Sonic". 

Well admittedly Amy's story in Adventure 1 is probably the least relevant to the big picture. I mean I don't mind it being more small indirect consequences throughout a more personal quest (like Big sort of was I guess), but after losing Birdie's emerald and helping Gamma, that was about it, and Gamma himself was mostly irrelevant afterwards. I mean both stories were still good in how more character driven they are and all but yeah, even Amy's last level they kind of had to shoehorn in.

This is maybe why the retro games' more free form campaign modes suit Amy well. If you want her to save the day completely, you can just choose her.

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7 minutes ago, Iko said:

 

Also, to people who (at the times of Sega Forums mostly) complained that Cream "stolen" some traits of Amy's personality and made her more bland... I always thought it was not true, but ironically it's starting to become true recently, especially in some panels of IDW Sonic (I didn't read it but I had the chance to see some panels, and I also occasionally read stuff in the dedicated thread so I know more or less what's going on). I think they got Cream's personality pretty right in the comics, but occasionally there are moments where she acts more like Amy, like that scene when she brings tea to Amy and cheers her up with lots of optimism and "you are a hero" thing... that's just a very Amy thing. But I don't care much about comic characterization since comics are not canon, I just hope it doesn't become a trend in the main games too, give the optimism and trust in others traits back to Amy and let Cream be her own character (I remember that in Sonic Rush the two coexisted without overlapping... I get that there was a crazy yandere fangirl scene of Amy but there also was a talk of her about friendship that helped Blaze to change her personality and open herself up to others).

Oh, so that DID happen! Okay, I been sorta wondering if Sega were trying to give them a close dynamic that was never really there and quietly retconing her in Cream's place there.

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4 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Yeah, but Adventure 2 aside, Amy was always involved in the action, even in things like Riders. It's not like she became more involved or anything. Amy's main contribution in IDW (fighting Metal Sonic) was literally a homage to Heroes, where she did the exact same thing. 

If that was the case, how come her reputation is so much worse than Sonic, Tails, or Knuckles? How involved is she actually is something I've been thinking about; in SA1, her campaign has the least to do with the main conflict outside of getting kidnapped for Sonic to rescue her. Heroes isn't really storydriven at all, but she is leading a team but it should  be noted that her levels are the easiest in the game. Outside of one or two scenes in 06, she's not really relevant there either. Same in Unleashed, and that leads to where we are in the current era. 

So overall, her contributions are kinda negligible when put under scrutiny, which is why people don't really give her any credit and just accuse her of stalking Sonic, the Flanderization of those traits didn't really help that percpetion either. 

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8 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Yeah, but Adventure 2 aside, Amy was always involved in the action, even in things like Riders. It's not like she became more involved or anything. Amy's main contribution in IDW (fighting Metal Sonic) was literally a homage to Heroes, where she did the exact same thing. 

Did she fight Metal Sonic?

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6 minutes ago, Iko said:

I also don't like the new Amy that much. I've never been a big fan of her, but now especially it feels as if she's shoehorned into the main cast and her contribute to the game's story is not much different than what Tails could have done.

Amy used to be a secondary support character, not a main one... and I think it was a better suit for her. People keep bringing her talks to "bad guys" in Sonic Adventure as reference of her former personality, but I'm not really convinced that it was really the case.

I played SA1 ages ago, so I didn't remember precisely... because of this I watched the cutscenes of Gamma's story on youtube, and I think that Amy's actions aren't the trigger of Gamma turning good... also I'm pretty sure that Tails or even Sonic himself in the same situation would have acted in a similar way as her.

Gamma had a Tikal vision the moment he got Froggy with the emerald inside... also, he looked sadly at E103 when the other robots who failed to get Froggy were teleported away, because E103 contains the other flicky brother. The consciousness of the flicky inside him started to emerge when he touched Froggy with the emerald, or maybe it was a thing since the beginning because he was flawed, who knows... Amy's interaction is not the trigger.

In fact, the first sentence Amy says to him is "Go away!", not exactly a nice sentence (and in the rest of the discussion during the prison scene, Amy talks with a cool attitude, similar to Sonic).

Sonic Battle is an example of a similar situation where the whole cast of characters acts to Emerl similar to how Amy did to Gamma in SA1. Sonic protects and frees flickies and other animals since his debut game.

That scene on the Egg Carrier when Amy stops Gamma from attacking Sonic is pretty sweet, but I'm sure that other characters would have done similar things in the same situation, it's not because of Amy's personality.

Now, a more appropriate scene to highlight Amy's former (and IMO better) personality is the scene when she sneaks into Prison Island and frees Sonic from jail in SA2. She still shows the crush by joking about the marriage, but she also shows being surprisingly competent and useful, but a bit crazy too.

Now she sits near a computer and searches for informations, plans stuff, coordinates people and all... meh, it feels a bit forced and flat; Tails and Rouge would be more suited to do that stuff, part time along with their other traits. Being overly "mature" is a bit out of character IMO, she feels like a whole different character completely now.

Also, to people who (at the times of Sega Forums mostly) complained that Cream "stolen" some traits of Amy's personality and made her more bland... I always thought it was not true, but ironically it's starting to become true recently, especially in some panels of IDW Sonic (I didn't read it but I had the chance to see some panels, and I also occasionally read stuff in the dedicated thread so I know more or less what's going on). I think they got Cream's personality pretty right in the comics, but occasionally there are moments where she acts more like Amy, like that scene when she brings tea to Amy and cheers her up with lots of optimism and "you are a hero" thing... that's just a very Amy thing. But I don't care much about comic characterization since comics are not canon, I just hope it doesn't become a trend in the main games too, give the optimism and trust in others traits back to Amy and let Cream be her own character (I remember that in Sonic Rush the two coexisted without overlapping... I get that there was a crazy yandere fangirl scene of Amy but there also was a talk of her about friendship that helped Blaze to change her personality and open herself up to others).

This was a good read. But the difference between Sonic and Amy in those two instances is Sonic is usually quick to action with other robots to protect an harmless animal. Amy, on the other hand, never attacked the robot that chased her in her Sa1 campaign until she had to. Then there's the Gamma story. Matter of fact, in both Sonic and Tails's stories, they both were ready to take Gamma out.

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2 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well admittedly Amy's story in Adventure 1 is probably the least relevant to the big picture. I mean I don't mind it being more small indirect consequences throughout a more personal quest (like Big sort of was I guess), but after losing Birdie's emerald and helping Gamma, that was about it, and Gamma himself was mostly irrelevant afterwards. I mean both stories were still good in how more character driven they are and all but yeah, even Amy's last level they kind of had to shoehorn in.

You're starting to understand the issue here; most of the time, even when Amy is present, she really doesn't contribute a whole lot. Even in SA2, her biggest moment in the entire game...is motivating Shadow to act and help out the heroes, while she remains on the sidelines. She even spends the whole game complaining about how she doesn't get to do anything, and the second she's left by herself, she gets taken hostage...

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