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7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You still didn't answer my question.

It goes both ways. You're still dancing around what he said. Everyone else on the "New Amy is the best" club actually took the time to explain themselves. While you just twist people's words and avoid answers.

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9 minutes ago, Misfit The Hedgehog said:

It goes both ways. You're still dancing around what he said. Everyone else on the "New Amy is the best" club actually took the time to explain themselves. While you just twist people's words and avoid answers.

I'm asking questions in regards to the main topic subject. Literally everyone else I've asked has given me no issues on this. If you have nothing substantial to say in regards to the topic, then please leave me alone before I report you to the mods.

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5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm asking questions in regards to the main topic subject. Literally everyone else I've asked has given me no issues on this. If you have nothing substantial to say in regards to the topic, then please leave me alone before I report you to the mods.

So now I'm just picking on you but you made this wild accusation that I was comparing a cartoon hedgehog to Martin Luther King even after I kept saying that wasn't what I meant. But I'm the one picking on you? Fine. Report me. All I did was call you out for dancing around what other people had to say.

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23 hours ago, Misfit The Hedgehog said:

Nowadays she's just... there. 

Like every other character besides Sonic in the past 15 or so years. Included in name, but not in character or personality.

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11 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

That's not a distinction that really matters, especially when Amy earned the title by default.  She's the main heroine technically, but she's realistically the 4th team sonic character. This franchise has never been a girl power one.

 

I dunno. Both comic series were a bit indulgent with girl power sometimes, to the point of sometimes getting rather obnoxious about it. The games admittedly don't do it much, aside from some gender cliches for personality traits, it's actually decent naturally easing in new characters that don't feel like in-your-face gender balance (Wave, Cream, Marine, and Blaze's genders feel irrelevant to their actual roles at least). Amy is more divisive in that regard though because she was blatantly designed to be the token girl and her design and personality befit that. Not that feminine characterisation is bad, but it goes back to the problem of them sometimes failing to give her more of a role beyond 'the girl'. 

Even her two cases of derailment befit this stereotype, either being the psychotic tsundere who busts the male cast's balls non-stop or taking the positive discrimination route where she has a saner but pretty undercooked role.

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19 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I dunno. Both comic series were a bit indulgent with girl power sometimes, to the point of sometimes getting rather obnoxious about it. The games admittedly don't do it much, aside from some gender cliches for personality traits, it's actually decent naturally easing in new characters that don't feel like in-your-face gender balance (Wave, Cream, Marine, and Blaze's genders feel irrelevant to their actual roles at least). Amy is more divisive in that regard though because she was blatantly designed to be the token girl and her design and personality befit that. Not that feminine characterisation is bad, but it goes back to the problem of them sometimes failing to give her more of a role beyond 'the girl'. 

Even her two cases of derailment befit this stereotype, either being the psychotic tsundere who busts the male cast's balls non-stop or taking the positive discrimination route where she has a saner but pretty undercooked role.

Even her roles where she's at her "best" just have as a normal, sweet girl and not much else. 

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Gameverse Amy is really just a designated protagonist at this point.

Like, it's obvious ST wants her to be Sonic's waifu mascot but she was never really intended to be a hero in the same league as Sonic or even Tails in the way Blaze is. So she's either just playable in ensemble and party games, has a bit part like in Rush, or gets a forced role like in IDW.

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4 hours ago, Misfit The Hedgehog said:

So now I'm just picking on you but you made this wild accusation that I was comparing a cartoon hedgehog to Martin Luther King even after I kept saying that wasn't what I meant.

 

17 hours ago, Misfit The Hedgehog said:

I mean, that's the basis for a selfless character and hero. Are you going to complain about MLK's speeches because all it did was motivate others?

Wild indeed.

If you're going to throw around names like that on this forum then you better be crystal fucking clear on exactly how you're using them. Throwing them into a half baked jab at someone clearly not being one of them.

Considering this your one and only warning to cut this shit out and only stay on topic.

 

And @Fire-N-Space, if I or another mod have to hide another one of your little off topic jab post then you can expect an official action very soon afterwards.

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12 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

Adventure 1 established Amy as being bored out of her skull with mundane life; explicitly lamenting about how every day is the same old thing, and reminiscing about chasing bad guys and blowing them away. Granted, looking at the cutscene again, Sonic is a big part of the fun factor... But it's not too much of a stretch to infer that Amy wants a life of adventure. And later in her story, Amy acknowledged that Sonic's "always rescuing her" and stated she should be more independent. And then, of course, there's the ending of her Adventure 1 story, which had her declare that she's going to try her best and to make Sonic respect her; implying the the motivation to become her own hero, if only so she can better help and protect those in need like that Flicky, in addition to becoming more independent 

Alas, the games afterwards didn't really follow through with this narrative for Amy 😑 But at least there's a canon basis for "old Amy" having wants besides loving Sonic. Just unfortunate that the writers hyper-focused on the "loves Sonic" motivation, rather than having that just be one of her wants, but there you go 

So here's a funny thing; that's a translation hiccup. While she does talk about Sonic always rescuing her and laments it, she never talks specifically about being independent in the original script. 

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I wouldn't say hate for me, just don't care. She's super boring and uninteresting now. She's more the token girl character than ever before. I do very much understand why reverse Peppy/Peach wasn't peoples cup of tea. I don't mind because it's something that was completely new at the time. It's always the man trying to rescue the princess or trying to save someone they love etc. But with Amy she was the one with the crush with the boy this time and he wants nothing to do with it. It's the most anti Mario relationship. Mario is about saving his beloved peach from the dragon turtle ala knights.castles, dragons and princesses. Sonic may have to sometimes save Amy but she tends to be more capable more often than Peach and she is the one with the romantic feelings. It's humorous to me as well as an original relationship that isn't overdone. It's only when it got too ridiculous for its own good when people I feel got really annoyed.

I like the idea of her trying to win Sonic over, it's just when it's done at inappropriate times is the problem. Or at least she should more acknowledge if one of her flirt attempts is coming at a bad time just so she's more self aware about it. Then she doesn't come off one track minded and end up annoying people. I wouldn't mind if she giggles or has a good time if Sonic has to carry her to escape a situation fast, and Sonic just mentions as a joke if she tries anything he'll drop her. It'd be cute with more personality than "strong woman" is "strong woman". I do miss the fangirl but understand why it was changed. I could maybe go with this new direction if she wasn't so darn boring and uninteresting now with nothing to offer beyond just existing.

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1 hour ago, HywelAtTheMoon said:

I didn't mind it when she lost her temper in Sonic Boom, as it was warranted. Back in the 2000s, it felt as if she got angry for any tiny reason. Her scary mode was a fixture, and it got boring fast.

Pretty much. Games Amy admittedly wasn't QUITE so bad outside spin offs (again Riders 1 was a warranted rage mode Amy moment) but they really seemed to go with this psychopath bend to her during this era, in Sonic X and pre-reboot Archie everyone seemed shrewdly afraid she'd turn rabid at any point, and even villains that would goad the likes of Sonic and the equally horrid tempered Knuckles would cower like babies before her. I get it was mostly gag driven, but done so consistently, it really dehumanised her and I don't think it really helped this image of her as a stalker and a nuisance. Everyone's chemistry with her was either being annoyed or afraid of her.

Maybe it's simply because I'm not big on 'ball busting' archetypes, at least not ones that are somehow assumed to be LIKEABLE (the likes of Miss Piggy and Angelica Pickles for example are little tyrants, but their respective universe seems far more self aware they are essentially the bullies/jerks of the cast and are far more willing to give them their comeuppance or let others stand up to them at times, anime examples like Amy tend to be rampant, and sadly they seldom ever evolve from the gag and let them get punished or called out for it). Amy works short tempered, but I prefer it as a human frustration or brattiness she has to be genuinely riled up to reach, with the cast having the balls to undermine her, not treat her as this unstoppable demon head. Vector calling Amy a 'lil' brat' was classic, same for everyone ripping on her when her busybody antics get Sticks kidnapping. Amy's temper should be fallible.

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

So here's a funny thing; that's a translation hiccup. While she does talk about Sonic always rescuing her and laments it, she never talks specifically about being independent in the original script. 

Well then... SEGA of Japan, I prefer your original scripts over the English translations overall, but this is one instance I prefer the translation 

In any case, the point I was trying to make with my first post was that "old Amy", for all her faults, at least had a clear character and personality: that of a bubbly and enthusiastic girl who has a fierce side but easily one of the most compassionate characters, and harbors romantic affection for Sonic. It's a shame that the writers ultimately focused too much on the "loves Sonic" aspect to the point of being her sole motivation with few exceptions, but point is that "old Amy" had qualities that can make her a genuinely interesting character and even drive a story, had they been pursued and executed well. Her energy and emotion gave her traits for us to relate to and thus be invested in, as well as something to bounce off of other characters for interesting dynamics and chemistry. She had a long-term goal that gave her something to strive for, and could have more long-term goals added on (namely becoming a more capable hero to better help others). And old Amy's character definitely be challenged; most obviously by putting her affection for Sonic into question, but also shaking up her optimism, and so on

With current Amy though... There's nothing from her to make a story out of. Nothing to strive for aside from being "independent", nothing to challenge her on, and no actual personality and emotion to be invested in. And this new characterization doesn't exactly solve her apparent lack of a role; she's still just there. So I can't understand how and why people view this as an improvement for Amy's character when, in any other series, this is clear-cut regression. We took a character who had quirks and characteristics, and turned her to one with none of that just because one of those quirks got overplayed. Old Amy could be one dimensional, but now she's got no dimension. Or in the case of IDW, turned Amy into a different character mostly contrary to how she had been established and consistently behaved, which I can't call a true improvement

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38 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

Well then... SEGA of Japan, I prefer your original scripts over the English translations overall, but this is one instance I prefer the translation 

In any case, the point I was trying to make with my first post was that "old Amy", for all her faults, at least had a clear character and personality: that of a bubbly and enthusiastic girl who has a fierce side but easily one of the most compassionate characters, and harbors romantic affection for Sonic. It's a shame that the writers ultimately focused too much on the "loves Sonic" aspect to the point of being her sole motivation with few exceptions, but point is that "old Amy" had qualities that can make her a genuinely interesting character and even drive a story, had they been pursued and executed well. Her energy and emotion gave her traits for us to relate to and thus be invested in, as well as something to bounce off of other characters for interesting dynamics and chemistry. She had a long-term goal that gave her something to strive for, and could have more long-term goals added on (namely becoming a more capable hero to better help others). And old Amy's character definitely be challenged; most obviously by putting her affection for Sonic into question, but also shaking up her optimism, and so on

With current Amy though... There's nothing from her to make a story out of. Nothing to strive for aside from being "independent", nothing to challenge her on, and no actual personality and emotion to be invested in. And this new characterization doesn't exactly solve her apparent lack of a role; she's still just there. So I can't understand how and why people view this as an improvement for Amy's character when, in any other series, this is clear-cut regression. We took a character who had quirks and characteristics, and turned her to one with none of that just because one of those quirks got overplayed. Old Amy could be one dimensional, but now she's got no dimension. Or in the case of IDW, turned Amy into a different character mostly contrary to how she had been established and consistently behaved, which I can't call a true improvement

Yeah. There's a reason why despite her faults, Amy's bubbly & energetic personality is mostly what people associate her with in fan-works & whatnot. 

I don't hate the current portrayal of Amy (especially since she's been so downplayed over the last decade that it's hard to really get a full grasp of her current personality), but she did have a distinct character, role in the Sonic universe & a personality as her "Genki Girl" self & you can write stories surrounding that interpretation of Amy. The current version of Amy Rose has had so little focus that it's really hard to figure out what you could do with her from a story perspective outside of being another cheerleader for Sonic or telling Sonic where to go next, ala Sonic Forces.

 

Spoiler

Also not sure how much of a popular opinion this is, but I'd like a game (small 2D spin-off would be fine) where we actually get to see Amy have a bigger role besides being a tag-a-long or being a cheerleader for Sonic. Despite being around for 25 years & being part of the main 4, Amy has never really had much of a big role in the games like some of the other characters in the series.

 

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29 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

Well then... SEGA of Japan, I prefer your original scripts over the English translations overall, but this is one instance I prefer the translation 

In any case, the point I was trying to make with my first post was that "old Amy", for all her faults, at least had a clear character and personality: that of a bubbly and enthusiastic girl who has a fierce side but easily one of the most compassionate characters, and harbors romantic affection for Sonic. It's a shame that the writers ultimately focused too much on the "loves Sonic" aspect to the point of being her sole motivation with few exceptions, but point is that "old Amy" had qualities that can make her a genuinely interesting character and even drive a story, had they been pursued and executed well. Her energy and emotion gave her traits for us to relate to and thus be invested in, as well as something to bounce off of other characters for interesting dynamics and chemistry. She had a long-term goal that gave her something to strive for, and could have more long-term goals added on (namely becoming a more capable hero to better help others). And old Amy's character definitely be challenged; most obviously by putting her affection for Sonic into question, but also shaking up her optimism, and so on

With current Amy though... There's nothing from her to make a story out of. Nothing to strive for aside from being "independent", nothing to challenge her on, and no actual personality and emotion to be invested in. And this new characterization doesn't exactly solve her apparent lack of a role; she's still just there. So I can't understand how and why people view this as an improvement for Amy's character when, in any other series, this is clear-cut regression. We took a character who had quirks and characteristics, and turned her to one with none of that just because one of those quirks got overplayed. Old Amy could be one dimensional, but now she's got no dimension. Or in the case of IDW, turned Amy into a different character mostly contrary to how she had been established and consistently behaved, which I can't call a true improvement

Ok, I'm going to come out and say that I never found Amy to be a particularly interesting character, even before how she was currently written. She was always just kind of there to me, and I was always way more invested in the likes of Rouge and Blaze, because they had much more interesting personality and motives. Being nice and supportive aren't inherently bad traits, but as you said, they never really did anything with them, so they're not really a huge factor in Amy's character in order for me to really care. 

And I understand that she has her fans, and it's not even her fault for how she's been written and I don't think the writers had it out for her either. She just kinda...fell to the wayside and nobody ever thought to flesh her character out all that much. And I'm not saying how shes' written now is necessarily an improvement, but from a surface level, the audience can see that she is participating more now, which gives the impression that she's contributing more than just being nice and cute hence the more positive reception. 

 

 

Once again, I'm not saying that she's a bad character or how she's written now is any way better. But I also never cared much about her to begin with, and the audience is much more likely to sympathize with a character who participates in the action, than one who just kind of sits on the sidelines while contributing very little. There's a reason Tails has gotten a lot of flak lately over that. 

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7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 the audience is much more likely to sympathize with a character who participates in the action, than one who just kind of sits on the sidelines while contributing very little. 

Thing is, has she really "participated in the action" lately? She wasn't in Sonic Colors (the console version at least), was completely on the sidelines for Generations alongside the rest of the non-Sonic & Tails cast, Lost World she (as well as Knuckles) was stuck on Sonic's World while Sonic & Tails did most of the action on the Lost Hex & she was playing the role of second in command to Knuckles in Forces. Amy was the most involved in Sonic Forces among her post-Unleashed appearances, but she's been very much on the sidelines over the last few years.

Not that she's alone in that regard (I mean Shadow might as well have disappeared from the franchise until Forces after 06), but she has yet to really get involved in the action. I mostly put it down to the writers not really having any idea what to do with the cast outside of Sonic, Tails & Eggman, but Amy felt more involved in the action (or was at least had more scenes) back in the 2000s

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2 minutes ago, D.H said:

Thing is, has she really "participated in the action" lately? She wasn't in Sonic Colors (the console version at least), was completely on the sidelines for Generations alongside the rest of the non-Sonic & Tails cast, Lost World she was stuck on Sonic's World while Sonic & Tails did most of the action on the Lost Hex & she was playing the role of second in command to Knuckles in Forces. Amy was the most involved in Sonic Forces among her post-Unleashed appearances, but she's been very much on the sidelines over the last few years.

Not that she's alone in that regard (I mean Shadow might as well have disappeared from the franchise until Forces after 06), but she has yet to really get involved in the action.

That's why I said it's surface level; but after seeing her as an obnoxious brat obsessed with Sonic for so long, the audience probably thought anytime she wasn't doing that  was an improvement. 

And you gotta understand, the alternate media plays a role in this too; you have Boom and the IDW comics which have also reinforced that perception about Amy as well. 

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1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

That's why I said it's surface level; but after seeing her as an obnoxious brat obsessed with Sonic for so long, the audience probably thought anytime she wasn't doing that  was an improvement. 

And you gotta understand, the alternate media plays a role in this too; you have Boom and the IDW comics which have also reinforced that perception about Amy as well. 

Which is a fair assessment, but it also speaks to how people perceive certain characters in the series. It reminds me of how some people initially thought the story of Sonic Colors was a mass improvement over previous titles when it came out because of surface level reasons, rather than the actual contents of the story. At least from what I saw.

Boom, IDW (& post-SGW Archie) helped that perception of current Amy being an improvement over her, but I think it also says something that some of Amy's best moments in those continuities featured traits that wasn't too dissimilar from her older self. 

Spoiler

I also think that post-SGW Archie & IDW Amy (mainly herself in issue 2) reached the best balance between Amy's energetic, Sonic-loving & bubbly self & her developing maturity, but that's likely just me.

 

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2 minutes ago, D.H said:

Which is a fair assessment, but it also speaks to how people perceive certain characters in the series. It reminds me of how some people initially thought the story of Sonic Colors was a mass improvement over previous titles when it came out because of surface level reasons, rather than the actual contents of the story. At least from what I saw.

Boom, IDW (& post-SGW Archie) helped that perception of current Amy being an improvement over her, but I think it also says something that some of Amy's best moments in those continuities featured traits that wasn't too dissimilar from her older self. 

  Reveal hidden contents

I also think that post-SGW Archie & IDW Amy (mainly herself in issue 2) reached the best balance between Amy's energetic, Sonic-loving & bubbly self & her developing maturity, but that's likely just me.

 

I feel like if more writers were interested in developing those traits, she'd be way better off but I can understand why they wouldn't be interested in her; after all, why develop the girly girl character whose main traits are being nice and loving the main character, when you have a much more active female character and one with a defined goal that separates her from the main character. 

One is just more inherently interesting to both authors and the audience, and I feel that's why Blaze enjoys a much more positive reception than Amy does. 

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I'm growing rather irritated with of this thread. Besides losing my response which was written out in anger anyway at the sheer derision of Amy that this thread has been harboring (yeah guess what, I'm a bleeding Amy Rose), there is the abject derision of her. It's especially bad when Knuckles is said to carry more narrative importance than her when is a one off character whose story was resolved. I would really like someone to explain to me the ongoing narrative role the Guardian of the Master Emerald living alone o his island has in the story of globe trotting adventurer Sonic the Hedgehog whose eyes are always on the next adventure or challenge. Can you please tell me? And no, rival and super hero save the world nonsense is not an acceptable answer because that is not who Sonic or Knuckles are. Either way I'm sure those are the arguments you'll bring so I better get my popcorn ready.

So how am I going to defend a character with even less narrative purpose than Knuckles, easy, by pointing at that her character role is to follow Sonic. that is her character role, just watch the bloody video here and listen to bloody Hoshino tell you.

Did you hear it? Did you hear that her character foundation is a girl with limitless energy and optimism, you know, that has been removed from her character? Did you hear that what she wants, you know the thing that you say she doesn't have, is to be with Sonic without slowing him down? DID YOU HEAR THAT?! So why does that work better than bleeding bloody Knuckles. Well maybe if you were listening to the man you would hear who Sonic is too. Now tell me who the heck Knuckles is and why he should always be in Sonic's bloody adventures. There isn't a single narrative or character reason to justify it. But you know what, Amy does at least have the character reason, despite the fact that nearly every bloody person want removed from. I don't know, but taking a character who is a girly tomboy and actively makes the decision to pursue what they want and telling them can't do that, they can't want, and the can't be a girly-girl or a tomboy because everything about you is a blind miserable take on a character whose every drop of positive energy and being good shows that it is okay to be you even if who you are is contradictory. that is a great image for girls to have in a world where everyone is telling you you can only be one way, you know, what every single one of your are telling Amy to be. How woke and progressive if you. If there's a problem here is that they never gave her the ability to keep up and partake. If Tails is bleeding Robin than she needed to be bloody batgirl. That makes her more valuable than Knuckles narratively and as a role model for the audience. It shows the target young boy demographic that a girl can partake, even if she is girly, and it shows girls that they can no matter what anyone tells them. And she does it by having the bloody freedom to be her bloody self.

So what about the OP question. Yeah, IDW Amy bores me to death. And you know why, because they took her bloody foundation out from under her. Who he heck is Amy Rose without her crush on Sonic, who know the answer that either if you get rid of the girl who whose foundation is a character who has the positivity and energy to chase after Sonic. Get rid of her energy so she's mature. Get rid of her crush so she's not obnoxious. Do you actually see what this saying. You are just saying get rid of her. And don't give me that she doesn't contribute nonsense. You do know her debut nickname was Rosy the Rascal right. Do you bloody realize that means she is supposed to cause trouble. She is a narrative antagonist on the protagonist's side. Her presence is an obstacle for one reason or another that protagonist is supposed to overcome. That is a narrative tool, and considering Amy is a kind helpful girl who wants to partake the possibility of trouble she can cause is as a limitless as Sonic's bloody adventures. Show me how Guardian of the Emeralds Knuckles brings that to the narrative cause I would sure like to see how one-note role Knuckles or completely derailed Knuckles does that by being sidekick number 2. Cause you know as well as I do that he doesn't and that just like Shadow, and Silver, and Blaze you have to make the story about them so they can actually contribute. But you know what? Just like Tails, Amy contributes to Sonic's story and narrative because she is designed from the onset to be a character part of it an ongoing role. Tell me you can actually bloody see that, because if you can't, you have no grounds to describe how she should be used and should stick to just admitting you don't like and want  her removed. That would at least be honest instead if this passive aggressive nonsense and active derision of her character this thread is.

And yes mods, I know this post is probably warning ready and I'm posting it anyway because this franchise and characters fend off my depression and suicidal thoughts so I am not holding back my anger over "worthless" fiction. I'm pissed off from reading this drivel of thread and making that anger known knowing the consequences.

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7 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I'm growing rather irritated with of this thread. Besides losing my response which was written out in anger anyway at the sheer derision of Amy that this thread has been harboring (yeah guess what, I'm a bleeding Amy Rose), there is the abject derision of her. It's especially bad when Knuckles is said to carry more narrative importance than her when is a one off character whose story was resolved. I would really like someone to explain to me the ongoing narrative role the Guardian of the Master Emerald living alone o his island has in the story of globe trotting adventurer Sonic the Hedgehog whose eyes are always on the next adventure or challenge. Can you please tell me? And no, rival and super hero save the world nonsense is not an acceptable answer because that is not who Sonic or Knuckles are. Either way I'm sure those are the arguments you'll bring so I better get my popcorn ready.

Just to address this part; dude literally guards the most powerful object in the setting that is usually a direct target of the villains that want to abuse it's power, and is directly connected with the other seven powerful objects. Regardless of how much focus its gets in the story, that's a pretty important role to have don't you think.

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Just now, Kuzu said:

I feel like if more writers were interested in developing those traits, she'd be way better off but I can understand why they wouldn't be interested in her; after all, why develop the girly girl character whose main traits are being nice and loving the main character, when you have a much more active female character and one with a defined goal that separates her from the main character. 

One is just more inherently interesting to both authors and the audience, and I feel that's why Blaze enjoys a much more positive reception than Amy does. 

I also feel like that part of it comes down to Blaze actually having a spotlight role in two whole games, where the most Amy has ever gotten was 2 side-stories in Adventure 1 & Heroes. You could make an argument that Blaze is a more inherently interesting character, but imo it's kinda hard to tell when one has had two starring roles with her character development arc starting & completing, while the other had a character development arc start, before it was dropped in favor of sticking them on the sidelines for 15 years, before claiming she's "matured" without actually showing her character becoming more mature. 

But I suppose it doesn't matter either way, since Blaze rarely shows up & Amy has been so underutilized lately. I also think SEGA missed the boat on doing stories with Amy & Blaze, but that's for another thread.

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