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5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Just to address this part; dude literally guards the most powerful object in the setting that is usually a direct target of the villains that want to abuse it's power, and is directly connected with the other seven powerful objects. Regardless of how much focus its gets in the story, that's a pretty important role to have don't you think.

Absolutely not. It had a role for a story arc and has sense not mattered. And why Should it. That adventure is behind Sonic as he moves on to his next one. So no, Knuckles and his pretty rock don't mean a thing since that story arc ended.

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1 minute ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Absolutely not. It had a role for a story arc and has sense not mattered. And why Should it. That adventure is behind Sonic as he moves on to his next one. So no, Knuckles and his pretty rock don't mean a thing since that story arc ended.

You asked what his role was and I gave it to you; if you don't think that's important, then that's a different issue entirely. 

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11 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

...her debut nickname was Rosy the Rascal...

Should this come back?

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Just to address this part; dude literally guards the most powerful object in the setting that is usually a direct target of the villains that want to abuse it's power, and is directly connected with the other seven powerful objects. Regardless of how much focus its gets in the story, that's a pretty important role to have don't you think.

It's not really a reason for him to...be around.

That's why the thing he guards is no longer important enough to come back or be acknowledged over the multiple scattered plot macguffins which are better.

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1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

It's not really a reason for him to...be around.

That's why the thing he guards is no longer important enough to come back or be acknowledged over the multiple scattered plot macguffins which are better.

I didn't say it was a good reason for him to be around; the question was "What is Knuckles` role and how does it tie into the series" anything beyond that is a different issue. 

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You asked what his role was and I gave it to you; if you don't think that's important, then that's a different issue entirely. 

 

Just now, Kuzu said:

I didn't say it was a good reason for him to be around; the question was "What is Knuckles` role and how does it tie into the series" anything beyond that is a different issue. 

I asked what was his role in the story of Sonic the Hedgehog was, not what his role was in the setting. Cause you know what, if you put Knuckles in his role he disappears instantly from the story of Sonic the Hedgehog. He has no ongoing place in that story. When you are being told the stories of Sonic the Hedgehog, who exactly is Knuckles to be in every single one of them? He shouldn't be because his story is over. Despite his popularity, like Shadow, he was not made as a recurring character. Because of that, just like Shadow his fans are never happy, because he has no point when he shows up and is horribly mishandled. But that's the type of episodic roadshow Sonic's story is. if you they weren't made to follow Sonic then as son as their story arc is over they serve no further purpose. So yeah, Knuckles has an important role in the setting, but in the ongoing story of Sonic the Hedgehog he has known and has no value as a result.

7 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Should this come back?

It informs a lot about her narrative role so I think it should. that and SEGA needs to reclaim it from what Archie did to it.

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10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Ok, I'm going to come out and say that I never found Amy to be a particularly interesting character, even before how she was currently written. She was always just kind of there to me, and I was always way more invested in the likes of Rouge and Blaze, because they had much more interesting personality and motives. Being nice and supportive aren't inherently bad traits, but as you said, they never really did anything with them, so they're not really a huge factor in Amy's character in order for me to really care. 

...Did you miss all the parts wherein I highlighted Amy's being a Genki Girl and Hot Blooded, in addition to being nice and supportive? Cause Amy was never just nice and supportive. Or at least, she stopped being just nice, supportive, and smitten with Sonic after the Adventure games. By the time of Zero Gravity, I'd argue Amy had just as much personality as Rouge and Blaze, but had the misfortune of her crush on Sonic being played up by the writers to the point of coming off as having little personality, even though there were plenty other elements to Amy. Did you not pay attention to Amy's characters in games beyond the Adventure series or something? I'm just wondering where this "Amy has only ever been nice and supportive" when plenty of side material and the main series games demonstrated that she's also excessively energetic and emotional (major apologies if this offends, I'm not trying to give you crap. Just trying to understand your perception)

37 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

...and the audience is much more likely to sympathize with a character who participates in the action, than one who just kind of sits on the sidelines while contributing very little.

...That describes 2010's!Amy far more than it does 2000's!Amy... Amy sure as heck wasn't sitting on the sidelines and contributing very little in Heroes, Battle, Sonic X, and Zero Gravity. And while her appearances in other material of the 2000's was unfortunately not much, her contributions weren't that little. Adventure 2, her confronting Shadow and giving him a heartfelt speech (which incidentally reminded him of Maria's true wish to him) is what caused him to save the planet from his and Gerald's revenge scheme. Sonic 06, she saved Sonic from getting killed by Silver the first time with a fierce glare and subsequently made Silver question his "killing Sonic to save the future"

Compare with 2010's: Generations, Amy becomes a damsel like everyone else and simply cheers Sonic on in the final boss. Lost World, Amy is literally standing on the sidelines alongside Knuckles while Sonic and Tails trek the Lost Hex, with her most important role being giving them an update on the slowly dying planet. Forces, Amy is Knuckles' second in command, which may technically be a higher role than all previous appearances, yet she still contributed little in such a position. Only in IDW is Amy truly participating in the action and contributing much

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27 minutes ago, D.H said:

I also feel like that part of it comes down to Blaze actually having a spotlight role in two whole games, where the most Amy has ever gotten was 2 side-stories in Adventure 1 & Heroes. You could make an argument that Blaze is a more inherently interesting character, but imo it's kinda hard to tell when one has had two starring roles with her character development arc starting & completing, while the other had a character development arc start, before it was dropped in favor of sticking them on the sidelines for 15 years, before claiming she's "matured" without actually showing her character becoming more mature. 

But I suppose it doesn't matter either way, since Blaze rarely shows up & Amy has been so underutilized lately. I also think SEGA missed the boat on doing stories with Amy & Blaze, but that's for another thread.

Blaze got to be empowered by the player in her debut. You could play her, and she was fun to play. That's going to increase audience attachment. The Dimps/Rush team did a great job with her, and then Sonic Team mostly left her flapping in the wind to make cameos in cut-scenes or brief playable sections or only playable in ensemble games, just like Amy. 

I agree that Amy & Blaze would be a great pair — narratively, and also as a playable duo in the games. I would make Amy into Blaze's sidekick, rather than continue the Advance route of Cream as Amy's sidekick. 

That's because, as it's been pointed out, Amy in the role as "mature" is a bit of a dead end for her, and I agree with that her Genki Girl traits are the core of the character to build out from (and like I said earlier I definitely like the idea of Amy getting into witchy spell stuff, not being a super expert mage, but like a Studio Gibli type of witch) 

So I would make Amy into a huge enthusiastic fan of Blaze as much as she is for Sonic. Amy as the Tails to Blaze's Sonic allows her the opportunity to be the goofball / rascal / comic relief to the more serious Blaze.  It's why Cream doesn't work as Amy's sidekick. If Amy's the mature one, then Cream is... what? Really nice and sensitive? There's no contrast, really. 

 

This helps two fold

1) It removes Amy from the other dead-end (defining her only by her crush on Sonic) to make her crush be more about being a SUPER FAN of the abilities and achievements. We could establish Amy as being a huge heart-shaped-eye fan of what Blaze can do, too, and it recontextualizes Amy's obsession with Sonic as being more aspirational, like Tails view of Sonic, but different in that she's a fan of LOTS of heroes, not JUST Sonic (but Sonic is her FAVORITE). 

(Imagine Amy tagging along on Blaze's adventures, finally getting to be like Sonic just like she dreamed, but her own independent version... but all she does is point out how much cooler Sonic would've done that to Blaze, which quickly annoys her.)

2) It prevents either Amy or Blaze from having to be the Only Girl in the core group. I think Sonic Mania did a good job demonstrating that 5 main/playable characters is actually a really nice sweet spot... but whereas Mighty and Ray are kind of obviously "first draft" versions of Knuckles and Tails, Blaze and Amy are much more unique and offer more possibilities. Furthermore, by pairing Blaze & Amy as a team, it creates opportunities for a new group dynamic that has some more purpose other than "All of Sonic's Friends, Together"

Imagine the box art for a hypothetical Sonic game with this cast.

Sonic is front and center, giving us some hand gesture and grin. Tails and Knuckles are on one side, giving us the familiar Blue / Orange / Red team colors. Amy and Blaze are on the opposite side, bringing Purple and Pink. So, rather than Ray/Mighty being different shades of yellow and red, it's a completely new dash of energy that makes everything work together better than the sum of its parts. 

...

Sonic / Tails / Knuckles / Blaze / Amy is a powerhouse cast, imo, that allows every character to be their truest version and provides multiple interesting pairings to further all kinds of stories.  Knuckles and Blaze have a lot in common, so do Tails and Amy. Every pairing in this group is interesting.

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21 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

I asked what was his role in the story of Sonic the Hedgehog was, not what his role was in the setting. Cause you know what, if you put Knuckles in his role he disappears instantly from the story of Sonic the Hedgehog. He has no ongoing place in that story. When you are being told the stories of Sonic the Hedgehog, who exactly is Knuckles to be in every single one of them? He shouldn't be because his story is over. Despite his popularity, like Shadow, he was not made as a recurring character. Because of that, just like Shadow his fans are never happy, because he has no point when he shows up and is horribly mishandled. But that's the type of episodic roadshow Sonic's story is. if you they weren't made to follow Sonic then as son as their story arc is over they serve no further purpose. So yeah, Knuckles has an important role in the setting, but in the ongoing story of Sonic the Hedgehog he has known and has no value as a result.

 

Well yea, because he's not meant to be apart of Sonic's story, he has his own story and goals to follow. Are you going to say that it's a bad thing for characters to have goals and personality traits that don't revolve around the main character? 

18 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

...Did you miss all the parts wherein I highlighted Amy's being a Genki Girl and Hot Blooded, in addition to being nice and supportive? Cause Amy was never just nice and supportive. Or at least, she stopped being just nice, supportive, and smitten with Sonic after the Adventure games. By the time of Zero Gravity, I'd argue Amy had just as much personality as Rouge and Blaze, but had the misfortune of her crush on Sonic being played up by the writers to the point of coming off as having little personality, even though there were plenty other elements to Amy. Did you not pay attention to Amy's characters in games beyond the Adventure series or something? I'm just wondering where this "Amy has only ever been nice and supportive" when plenty of side material and the main series games demonstrated that she's also excessively energetic and emotional (major apologies if this offends, I'm not trying to give you crap. Just trying to understand your perception)

...That describes 2010's!Amy far more than it does 2000's!Amy... Amy sure as heck wasn't sitting on the sidelines and contributing very little in Heroes, Battle, Sonic X, and Zero Gravity. And while her appearances in other material of the 2000's was unfortunately not much, her contributions weren't that little. Adventure 2, her confronting Shadow and giving him a heartfelt speech (which incidentally reminded him of Maria's true wish to him) is what caused him to save the planet from his and Gerald's revenge scheme. Sonic 06, she saved Sonic from getting killed by Silver the first time with a fierce glare and subsequently made Silver question his "killing Sonic to save the future"

Compare with 2010's: Generations, Amy becomes a damsel like everyone else and simply cheers Sonic on in the final boss. Lost World, Amy is literally standing on the sidelines alongside Knuckles while Sonic and Tails trek the Lost Hex, with her most important role being giving them an update on the slowly dying planet. Forces, Amy is Knuckles' second in command, which may technically be a higher role than all previous appearances, yet she still contributed little in such a position. Only in IDW is Amy truly participating in the action and contributing much

I literally did not deny anything you said dude, I just said that I didn't find any of it particularly interesting; you can rattle off all of her personality traits and how important they are, but I just...never found anything she did to be particularly interesting. Like, they had something going starting in Adventure 1, but they never ever followed up on it and she just...existed. I'm sorry, and I can tell Amy is a character that you like a lot, but she just..was never one I was really interested in and they haven't really done much to alleviate that. Ok, I kind of liked what they did with her in Boom admitely, because she's a much more active character there in my opinion, but that's about it. 

Maybe it's because I'm just a stupid dumb boy, but I honestly prefer characters who can be both dynamic and rounded in equal measures, but Amy as a whole is woefully underdeveloped and undercooked. I'm not saying that I hate her or that she shouldn't be apart of the series, and I want them to develop her more. But the fact is is that they haven't and it's really not doing any favoris in getting me to care about her. 

I literally said too that I don't think what they've done with her recently isn't even an improvement, so we're on the same page there lol. We just kind of disagree on how good of a character she was; you think she was amazing, and I just think she was just alright. I kind of get the feeling you think I hate her when at worst, I'm just kind of indifferent. 

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14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well yea, because he's not meant to be apart of Sonic's story, he has his own story and goals to follow. Are you going to say that it's a bad thing for characters to have goals and personality traits that don't revolve around the main character? 

If he's not meant to be apart of Sonic's story and no longer has his own story or goals, then why is he still around?

That's the actual problem when implying he has more of a reason than Amy to be in the games or the core 4, from Heroes onward he practically doesn't.

He's just fun.

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3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

Well yea, because he's not meant to be apart of Sonic's story, he has his own story and goals to follow. Are you going to say that it's a bad thing for characters to have goals and personality traits that don't revolve around the main character? 

You know @Kuzu, this is why you get accused of twisting what people are saying. You do realize that it's because Knuckles has his own story and goals to follow that he has no place in Sonic's story, right? In that case why exactly should he be in Sonic's story beyond the point their stories intersected. This isn't a question about what I value in a character, it's a question about why should Knuckles be present when he has reasons to not be. I think Knuckles had a very cool story arc in 3&K and adventure. It's my preferred interpretation of. Thing is though, once Chaos was dealt with Knuckles place in Sonic's story was over without having to shoehorn him in. You take him out of Adventure 2 and the story doesn't even change. The only thing he contributed was immediately countered by the Bio Lizard like it didn't matter. When you remove that from him you have to ask what role does he serve in Sonic's story and there is none. He has to be there for his own reason independent of Sonic. And while there is nothing wrong with that, stop and ask yourself if he should even be there if that is case. If he has no narrative potential in Sonic's story, should he be in a Sonic story? The obvious answer is no. That he's role in the world is tied to a rock that doesn't even have a use in most Sonic stories only further removes him. Amy meanwhile is a character who is supposed to follow Sonic and possesses a nickname that tells you she should be causing trouble. This makes her an antagonist, creating further obstacles for Sonic, the protagonist, to overcome. That is a narrative purpose in the story of the character who the franchise is named for. Knuckles, when fulfilling his role, has no none.

So for the record, I think every character needs to have something that makes them them. The thing is though, if what makes them them gives them no reason to be an ongoing part of Sonic's story, then they don't actually matter. So please, stop trying to twist what people are saying so you can internally vilify them for your personal narrative. In fact, I would appreciate it if you could explain to me how me seeing Knuckles as narratively useless if his big rock isn't involved as saying it's bad thing for characters to have their own stories and goals. Because we both know that's a loaded question and has no bearing on what I was talking about. It reads like you are in utter disbelief that someone would call Knuckles meaningless and reacted defensively to paint me as some sort of mad man. It's frankly insulting and dishonest.

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Just now, StaticMania said:

If he's not meant to be apart of Sonic's story and no longer has his own story or goals, then why is he still around?

That's the actual problem when implying he has more of a reason than Amy to be in the games or the core 4, from Heroes onward he practically doesn't.

He's just fun.

Because he's popular and people would riot if he was removed :V

I wasn't implying that he has more reason than Amy to be around, but it's kind of weird to just be like "He has no purpose and should just be removed and Amy is so much more better than him" 

Like, why is Knuckles even apart of the subject now?

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15 minutes ago, Moose the Cat said:

Blaze got to be empowered by the player in her debut. You could play her, and she was fun to play. That's going to increase audience attachment. The Dimps/Rush team did a great job with her, and then Sonic Team mostly left her flapping in the wind to make cameos in cut-scenes or brief playable sections or only playable in ensemble games, just like Amy. 

I agree that Amy & Blaze would be a great pair — narratively, and also as a playable duo in the games. I would make Amy into Blaze's sidekick, rather than continue the Advance route of Cream as Amy's sidekick. 

That's because, as it's been pointed out, Amy in the role as "mature" is a bit of a dead end for her, and I agree with that her Genki Girl traits are the core of the character to build out from (and like I said earlier I definitely like the idea of Amy getting into witchy spell stuff, not being a super expert mage, but like a Studio Gibli type of witch) 

So I would make Amy into a huge enthusiastic fan of Blaze as much as she is for Sonic. Amy as the Tails to Blaze's Sonic allows her the opportunity to be the goofball / rascal / comic relief to the more serious Blaze.  It's why Cream doesn't work as Amy's sidekick. If Amy's the mature one, then Cream is... what? Really nice and sensitive? There's no contrast, really. 

 

This helps two fold

1) It removes Amy from the other dead-end (defining her only by her crush on Sonic) to make her crush be more about being a SUPER FAN of the abilities and achievements. We could establish Amy as being a huge heart-shaped-eye fan of what Blaze can do, too, and it recontextualizes Amy's obsession with Sonic as being more aspirational, like Tails view of Sonic, but different in that she's a fan of LOTS of heroes, not JUST Sonic (but Sonic is her FAVORITE). 

(Imagine Amy tagging along on Blaze's adventures, finally getting to be like Sonic just like she dreamed, but her own independent version... but all she does is point out how much cooler Sonic would've done that to Blaze, which quickly annoys her.)

2) It prevents either Amy or Blaze from having to be the Only Girl in the core group. I think Sonic Mania did a good job demonstrating that 5 main/playable characters is actually a really nice sweet spot... but whereas Mighty and Ray are kind of obviously "first draft" versions of Knuckles and Tails, Blaze and Amy are much more unique and offer more possibilities. Furthermore, by pairing Blaze & Amy as a team, it creates opportunities for a new group dynamic that has some more purpose other than "All of Sonic's Friends, Together"

Imagine the box art for a hypothetical Sonic game with this cast.

Sonic is front and center, giving us some hand gesture and grin. Tails and Knuckles are on one side, giving us the familiar Blue / Orange / Red team colors. Amy and Blaze are on the opposite side, bringing Purple and Pink. So, rather than Ray/Mighty being different shades of yellow and red, it's a completely new dash of energy that makes everything work together better than the sum of its parts. 

...

Sonic / Tails / Knuckles / Blaze / Amy is a powerhouse cast, imo, that allows every character to be their truest version and provides multiple interesting pairings to further all kinds of stories.  Knuckles and Blaze have a lot in common, so do Tails and Amy. Every pairing in this group is interesting.

Hmmm...... I don't know about making Amy a sidekick for Blaze (since I feel like both don't really need to stick to the idea of a sidekick/main character thing SEGA has with Team Sonic & even Team Dark), but I will say that since Amy & Blaze are supposed to be friends (I think) I'd like to see the two's friendship explored & expanded. They're basically two polar opposites with a strong sense of justice so there's a ton of untapped potential for story there. 

All that said, I do love the idea of a game where Sonic/Tails/Knuckles/Amy/Blaze were the main cast with each of them getting some moments to shine. 

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4 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

You know @Kuzu, this is why you get accused of twisting what people are saying. You do realize that it's because Knuckles has his own story and goals to follow that he has no place in Sonic's story, right? In that case why exactly should he be in Sonic's story beyond the point their stories intersected. This isn't a question about what I value in a character, it's a question about why should Knuckles be present when he has reasons to not be. I think Knuckles had a very cool story arc in 3&K and adventure. It's my preferred interpretation of. Thing is though, once Chaos was dealt with Knuckles place in Sonic's story was over without having to shoehorn him in. You take him out of Adventure 2 and the story doesn't even change. The only thing he contributed was immediately countered by the Bio Lizard like it didn't matter. When you remove that from him you have to ask what role does he serve in Sonic's story and there is none. He has to be there for his own reason independent of Sonic. And while there is nothing wrong with that, stop and ask yourself if he should even be there if that is case. If he has no narrative potential in Sonic's story, should he be in a Sonic story? The obvious answer is no. That he's role in the world is tied to a rock that doesn't even have a use in most Sonic stories only further removes him. Amy meanwhile is a character who is supposed to follow Sonic and possesses a nickname that tells you she should be causing trouble. This makes her an antagonist, creating further obstacles for Sonic, the protagonist, to overcome. That is a narrative purpose in the story of the character who the franchise is named for. Knuckles, when fulfilling his role, has no none.

So for the record, I think every character needs to have something that makes them them. The thing is though, if what makes them them gives them no reason to be an ongoing part of Sonic's story, then they don't actually matter. So please, stop trying to twist what people are saying so you can internally vilify them for your personal narrative. In fact, I would appreciate it if you could explain to me how me seeing Knuckles as narratively useless if his big rock isn't involved as saying it's bad thing for characters to have their own stories and goals. Because we both know that's a loaded question and has no bearing on what I was talking about. It reads like you are in utter disbelief that someone would call Knuckles meaningless and reacted defensively to paint me as some sort of mad man. It's frankly insulting and dishonest.

Because you brought him up when he's not even the subject of the topic, so I'm confused about why are you trying to use him to prop up Amy's importance as a character when I only really used him as an example to make a point about Amy. I want to remind you again, you requested that somebody give you an answer, and I did. If you didn't want somebody to push back, then you shouldn't have asked the question to begin with. 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things here, but it reads like you're upset that Knuckles is more popular both within and out of the fanbase and enjoys preferential treatment from Sega as a result when you feel like he doesn't deserve it and that Amy has more to offer than him. If I'm wrong, let me know because I might just be reading too much into things. But I don't get the point of writing an entire essay with the main point being "ahaha Amy is better than your precious Knuckles", and you yourself admitted that you typed that up in anger. 

If what I said angered you, then I apologize, because I'm not trying to intentionally piss anyone off. But I'm not going to sugarcoat how I feel either because it hurts some people's feelings. If what I said angered you (and once again, this is not my intention.), then take a break and come back with a clear head and argue the points that you don't agree with.

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24 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I literally did not deny anything you said dude, I just said that I didn't find any of it particularly interesting; you can rattle off all of her personality traits and how important they are, but I just...never found anything she did to be particularly interesting. Like, they had something going starting in Adventure 1, but they never ever followed up on it and she just...existed. I'm sorry, and I can tell Amy is a character that you like a lot, but she just..was never one I was really interested in and they haven't really done much to alleviate that. Ok, I kind of liked what they did with her in Boom admitely, because she's a much more active character there in my opinion, but that's about it. 

Maybe it's because I'm just a stupid dumb boy, but I honestly prefer characters who can be both dynamic and rounded in equal measures, but Amy as a whole is woefully underdeveloped and undercooked. I'm not saying that I hate her or that she shouldn't be apart of the series, and I want them to develop her more. But the fact is is that they haven't and it's really not doing any favoris in getting me to care about her. 

I literally said too that I don't think what they've done with her recently isn't even an improvement, so we're on the same page there lol. We just kind of disagree on how good of a character she was; you think she was amazing, and I just think she was just alright. I kind of get the feeling you think I hate her when at worst, I'm just kind of indifferent. 

Okay, fair enough lol Sorry if I was coming off hostile. It just came off to me like you were either missing or ignoring the points I and others brought up about Amy having more personality than perceived. But I'll grant, Amy's character isn't as truly developed as I'd like her to be... And I guess, if you were never interested in this character, than you're never going to see much to her in the first place until they do something with her that interests you. What that is, I have no idea. I can only hope that whatever they do with Amy that interests you (and many others) works with me. But given that you think positively of Boom!Amy and IDW!Amy, while those two incarnations do nothing but piss me off... Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree lol

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11 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

Okay, fair enough lol Sorry if I was coming off hostile. It just came off to me like you were either missing or ignoring the points I and others brought up about Amy having more personality than perceived. But I'll grant, Amy's character isn't as truly developed as I'd like her to be... And I guess, if you were never interested in this character, than you're never going to see much to her in the first place until they do something with her that interests you. What that is, I have no idea. I can only hope that whatever they do with Amy that interests you (and many others) works with me. But given that you think positively of Boom!Amy and IDW!Amy, while those two incarnations do nothing but piss me off... Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree lol

Just to show you and @Sonic Fan J that I'm not as biased against this character as you two seem to think I am, I'll bring up an Amy moment that I liked and think is pretty underrated.

 

This scene is one of the few times when Amy's actions and personality have a direct affect on another character and highlights her strengths. It shows her faith in Sonic, and how that shakes Silver's resolve to follow through with his mission to kill him. Not only that, it's one of the few times when Amy successfully defends him from another. And yes, this one scene gives her more importance to 06 than Tails or Knuckles, who actually don't do anything important at all. It is sadly overlooked because...ya know...06. But it's a nice moment. 

So can ya'll like...calm down, because I too want Amy to be a fully realized character as well on par with Tails and Knuckles so her reputation improves. And we can do that without talking down about other characters. :V

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9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Because you brought him up when he's not even the subject of the topic, so I'm confused about why are you trying to use him to prop up Amy's importance as a character when I only really used him as an example to make a point about Amy. I want to remind you again, you requested that somebody give you an answer, and I did. If you didn't want somebody to push back, then you shouldn't have asked the question to begin with. 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things here, but it reads like you're upset that Knuckles is more popular both within and out of the fanbase and enjoys preferential treatment from Sega as a result when you feel like he doesn't deserve it and that Amy has more to offer than him. If I'm wrong, let me know because I might just be reading too much into things. But I don't get the point of writing an entire essay with the main point being "ahaha Amy is better than your precious Knuckles", and you yourself admitted that you typed that up in anger. 

If what I said angered you, then I apologize, because I'm not trying to intentionally piss anyone off. But I'm not going to sugarcoat how I feel either because it hurts some people's feelings. If what I said angered you (and once again, this is not my intention.), then take a break and come back with a clear head and argue the points that you don't agree with.

Fair enough, but I brought him in regards to Amy being dismissed narratively by other users who demonstrated no understanding of her role, and that her causing trouble is her narrative contribution. Much as I like Amy, if you really break her role down she's technically an antagonist. I'll admit though it  was kind of out of left field, but Knuckles being described as a "rival" with no context or function to it in regards to his character it's why I made the comparison. And please don't misunderstand, I would never say one character is better than the other. Honestly I wouldn't even say that SEGA gives him preferential treatment. You've seen what SEGA has done to him. If that's preferential treatment I'm terrified of what would happen if SEGA went of their way to purposely ruin a character in the public eye.

But on point, I wasn't using him to prop up Amy, but rather to contrast character roles. Pretty much everyone agrees that Knuckles has no role in Sonic's stories since Adventure pretty much, yet people act like he carries more narrative importance. I'm certain you see the contradiction. Outside of Forces he's usually just extra muscle that doesn't even get used for anything nor contribute to Sonic's adventure in any meaningful way. This is a waste of his character and role in the setting. Contrast that with Amy, whose role is to follow Sonic and whose trouble causing antics directly affects the narrative. So yeah, in a Sonic focused story Amy has far more narrative weight and character reason to be there than Knuckles if his distinct plot points are not at hand. Ian Flynn understands Knuckles' role better than most and it's why in IDW he isn't present during the zombot arc until his island is the only safe pace for the heroes. He has no role in the story, and even in the story Angel Island is more important narratively than he is. Conversely, because of his role in the setting on a whole, technically even our adventure loving protagonist Sonic is actually less important than him. Really, from a setting stand point I think only Chip is actually more important than Knuckles. But Sonic's adventures aren't always elevated to the full scope of the setting, and that makes someone as important as Knuckles difficult to use because of his role. Amy however is unimportant, and her role is strangely that of an antagonist despite being one of Sonic's friends and an ally of the protagonist. Because of this though, she has far greater narrative flexibility than Knuckles which was kind of the whole point of the comparison. Knuckles is narrative useless in the story of Sonic the Hedgehog because his scope is too big and Sonic rarely interacts with that purpose of Knuckles who in turn doesn't have any reason to interact with Sonic. Amy meanwhile is entirely built to interact with Sonic and thus always affects the narrative. It may sound crazy to people, but Amy is an antagonist in most cases and chances are most people won't understand that if they can't separate hero from protagonist. Because both Sonic and Amy can be viewed as heroes, but in the story of Sonic the Hedgehog Amy is frequently an antagonist and not a deuteragonist. Sadly the deuteragonist role should be Tails' but he isn't even a character himself most times and goes largely ignored by the narrative and that is just wrong. Forces even giving him his own campaign still didn't tell a story with him and that's ridiculous.

And yeah, I got mad at this question in particular

51 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Are you going to say that it's a bad thing for characters to have goals and personality traits that don't revolve around the main character? 

Because it completely sidesteps what I was talking about and reads as if it is trying to invalidate my argument by painting me as a madman mumbling in the streets. It's not very flattering and is very easy to be taken the wrong way. You say it wasn't your intent, but it is a rigged question that could have been used to invalidate me as a madman. It's a very dangerous question to put out there because it can very easily be used to completely destroy a members credibility and ostracize them from this community. I've already experienced that because I don't like the Piko Piko Hammer and would rather not also be considered a manman on top of that.

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20 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So can ya'll like...calm down, because I too want Amy to be a fully realized character as well on par with Tails and Knuckles so her reputation improves. And we can do that without talking down about other characters. :V

Okay 😅 Sorry 

Again, I don't mean to give you crap. Just when you state more than once how you never found Amy interesting, it gives off a biased impression. Wouldn't blame anyone if they thought as such with me if I stated that I was never all that interested in Blaze. She's a cool character and disproportionately underutilized. I just find Amy's character (and Cream's, since I still highly favor her) more appealing, with the untapped potential just making me focus even more on Amy, whereas Blaze had her character arc finished with the first Rush 

Speaking of that rabbit, do you feel the same about Cream, as far as wanting her to be fully realized character?? :P

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33 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Just to show you and @Sonic Fan J that I'm not as biased against this character as you two seem to think I am, I'll bring up an Amy moment that I liked and think is pretty underrated.

 

This scene is one of the few times when Amy's actions and personality have a direct affect on another character and highlights her strengths. It shows her faith in Sonic, and how that shakes Silver's resolve to follow through with his mission to kill him. Not only that, it's one of the few times when Amy successfully defends him from another. And yes, this one scene gives her more importance to 06 than Tails or Knuckles, who actually don't do anything important at all. It is sadly overlooked because...ya know...06. But it's a nice moment. 

So can ya'll like...calm down, because I too want Amy to be a fully realized character as well on par with Tails and Knuckles so her reputation improves. And we can do that without talking down about other characters. :V

And yeah, that is a scene where she has major narrative impact. It's impact in a positive as well, considering a lot of times she has negative impacts, being an antagonist as I explain above. In fact, if I really think about her frequently being an antagonist despite being one of the heroes alongside people frequently conflating hero and protagonist, then it becomes easy to see why she can come across as so annoying. But is removing her core genki girl character and desire to pursue Sonic really the best way to take her out of the particular antagonist role she plays? I kind of disagree because you might have well of replaced her with a different character. I think a better choice would have been to give her own game so you could see her in a protagonist role again like in Adventure and Heroes so you can actually see the trait that make her an antagonist to Sonic used in a good light, and maybe even highlight how she can be made an antagonist to Sonic because them. Outright removing them though is just failure as a writer to address her character and role. It also implies that the writer completely fails to recognize when she is being an antagonist and that is not a good thing for a writer to not see.

I'm also fairly positive that most users reading my recent posts are have no idea why I'm calling Amy an antagonist because they likely wrongly conflate antagonist with villain like so many wrongly conflate protagonist with hero. Just a reminder of how silly that is, Eggman is on of the protagonists of Sonic Adventure 2, and he's the franchise's main villain. Think on that for a little bit those of you who are confused and then research what an antagonist is. It'll open your eyes quite a bit to how vast story telling can be, and that you shouldn't be surprised if a pebble tumbling down a mountain side is called an antagonist.

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2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I'm growing rather irritated with of this thread. Besides losing my response which was written out in anger anyway at the sheer derision of Amy that this thread has been harboring (yeah guess what, I'm a bleeding Amy Rose), there is the abject derision of her. It's especially bad when Knuckles is said to carry more narrative importance than her when is a one off character whose story was resolved. I would really like someone to explain to me the ongoing narrative role the Guardian of the Master Emerald living alone o his island has in the story of globe trotting adventurer Sonic the Hedgehog whose eyes are always on the next adventure or challenge. Can you please tell me? And no, rival and super hero save the world nonsense is not an acceptable answer because that is not who Sonic or Knuckles are. Either way I'm sure those are the arguments you'll bring so I better get my popcorn ready.

So how am I going to defend a character with even less narrative purpose than Knuckles, easy, by pointing at that her character role is to follow Sonic. that is her character role, just watch the bloody video here and listen to bloody Hoshino tell you.

Did you hear it? Did you hear that her character foundation is a girl with limitless energy and optimism, you know, that has been removed from her character? Did you hear that what she wants, you know the thing that you say she doesn't have, is to be with Sonic without slowing him down? DID YOU HEAR THAT?! So why does that work better than bleeding bloody Knuckles. Well maybe if you were listening to the man you would hear who Sonic is too. Now tell me who the heck Knuckles is and why he should always be in Sonic's bloody adventures. There isn't a single narrative or character reason to justify it. But you know what, Amy does at least have the character reason, despite the fact that nearly every bloody person want removed from. I don't know, but taking a character who is a girly tomboy and actively makes the decision to pursue what they want and telling them can't do that, they can't want, and the can't be a girly-girl or a tomboy because everything about you is a blind miserable take on a character whose every drop of positive energy and being good shows that it is okay to be you even if who you are is contradictory. that is a great image for girls to have in a world where everyone is telling you you can only be one way, you know, what every single one of your are telling Amy to be. How woke and progressive if you. If there's a problem here is that they never gave her the ability to keep up and partake. If Tails is bleeding Robin than she needed to be bloody batgirl. That makes her more valuable than Knuckles narratively and as a role model for the audience. It shows the target young boy demographic that a girl can partake, even if she is girly, and it shows girls that they can no matter what anyone tells them. And she does it by having the bloody freedom to be her bloody self.

So what about the OP question. Yeah, IDW Amy bores me to death. And you know why, because they took her bloody foundation out from under her. Who he heck is Amy Rose without her crush on Sonic, who know the answer that either if you get rid of the girl who whose foundation is a character who has the positivity and energy to chase after Sonic. Get rid of her energy so she's mature. Get rid of her crush so she's not obnoxious. Do you actually see what this saying. You are just saying get rid of her. And don't give me that she doesn't contribute nonsense. You do know her debut nickname was Rosy the Rascal right. Do you bloody realize that means she is supposed to cause trouble. She is a narrative antagonist on the protagonist's side. Her presence is an obstacle for one reason or another that protagonist is supposed to overcome. That is a narrative tool, and considering Amy is a kind helpful girl who wants to partake the possibility of trouble she can cause is as a limitless as Sonic's bloody adventures. Show me how Guardian of the Emeralds Knuckles brings that to the narrative cause I would sure like to see how one-note role Knuckles or completely derailed Knuckles does that by being sidekick number 2. Cause you know as well as I do that he doesn't and that just like Shadow, and Silver, and Blaze you have to make the story about them so they can actually contribute. But you know what? Just like Tails, Amy contributes to Sonic's story and narrative because she is designed from the onset to be a character part of it an ongoing role. Tell me you can actually bloody see that, because if you can't, you have no grounds to describe how she should be used and should stick to just admitting you don't like and want  her removed. That would at least be honest instead if this passive aggressive nonsense and active derision of her character this thread is.

 

I think Knuckles was brought up once as a character that has a general idea or two of who he among other characters is between appearances; he shares some of the same weirdness sure, but by comparison, Rouge and Blaze were both mentioned more often as stronger characters.

...Is that you, Skeletomaton?

.

2 hours ago, Moose the Cat said:

 

So I would make Amy into a huge enthusiastic fan of Blaze as much as she is for Sonic. Amy as the Tails to Blaze's Sonic allows her the opportunity to be the goofball / rascal / comic relief to the more serious Blaze.  It's why Cream doesn't work as Amy's sidekick. If Amy's the mature one, then Cream is... what? Really nice and sensitive? There's no contrast, really.

 

 

To be fair on that last part, Cream was never meant to be mature. Just comparatively a more underspoken realist than the overtly head over heels Amy.

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

If he's not meant to be apart of Sonic's story and no longer has his own story or goals, then why is he still around?

That's the actual problem when implying he has more of a reason than Amy to be in the games or the core 4, from Heroes onward he practically doesn't.

He's just fun.

(Note: I'm replying to you because I couldn't find a better comment and ultimately decided not to respond to the other two)

Another point of Knuckles' recurring status was that, as the rival moniker sorta covers, he is a very different person from Sonic philosophically and that played a part in the two(or at least him) butting heads at various levels. So having him be involved in some of the more status quo tripping stories made sense forma character standpoint. It's just that as that became less utilized, he still lingered as a slowly fumbling tagalong due to the cast herding that was common for a good while, plus just being a founding part of the cast at that point.

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3 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Fair enough, but I brought him in regards to Amy being dismissed narratively by other users who demonstrated no understanding of her role, and that her causing trouble is her narrative contribution. Much as I like Amy, if you really break her role down she's technically an antagonist. I'll admit though it  was kind of out of left field, but Knuckles being described as a "rival" with no context or function to it in regards to his character it's why I made the comparison. And please don't misunderstand, I would never say one character is better than the other. Honestly I wouldn't even say that SEGA gives him preferential treatment. You've seen what SEGA has done to him. If that's preferential treatment I'm terrified of what would happen if SEGA went of their way to purposely ruin a character in the public eye.

But on point, I wasn't using him to prop up Amy, but rather to contrast character roles. Pretty much everyone agrees that Knuckles has no role in Sonic's stories since Adventure pretty much, yet people act like he carries more narrative importance. I'm certain you see the contradiction. Outside of Forces he's usually just extra muscle that doesn't even get used for anything nor contribute to Sonic's adventure in any meaningful way. This is a waste of his character and role in the setting. Contrast that with Amy, whose role is to follow Sonic and whose trouble causing antics directly affects the narrative. So yeah, in a Sonic focused story Amy has far more narrative weight and character reason to be there than Knuckles if his distinct plot points are not at hand. Ian Flynn understands Knuckles' role better than most and it's why in IDW he isn't present during the zombot arc until his island is the only safe pace for the heroes. He has no role in the story, and even in the story Angel Island is more important narratively than he is. Conversely, because of his role in the setting on a whole, technically even our adventure loving protagonist Sonic is actually less important than him. Really, from a setting stand point I think only Chip is actually more important than Knuckles. But Sonic's adventures aren't always elevated to the full scope of the setting, and that makes someone as important as Knuckles difficult to use because of his role. Amy however is unimportant, and her role is strangely that of an antagonist despite being one of Sonic's friends and an ally of the protagonist. Because of this though, she has far greater narrative flexibility than Knuckles which was kind of the whole point of the comparison. Knuckles is narrative useless in the story of Sonic the Hedgehog because his scope is too big and Sonic rarely interacts with that purpose of Knuckles who in turn doesn't have any reason to interact with Sonic. Amy meanwhile is entirely built to interact with Sonic and thus always affects the narrative. It may sound crazy to people, but Amy is an antagonist in most cases and chances are most people won't understand that if they can't separate hero from protagonist. Because both Sonic and Amy can be viewed as heroes, but in the story of Sonic the Hedgehog Amy is frequently an antagonist and not a deuteragonist. Sadly the deuteragonist role should be Tails' but he isn't even a character himself most times and goes largely ignored by the narrative and that is just wrong. Forces even giving him his own campaign still didn't tell a story with him and that's ridiculous.

And yeah, I got mad at this question in particular

Because it completely sidesteps what I was talking about and reads as if it is trying to invalidate my argument by painting me as a madman mumbling in the streets. It's not very flattering and is very easy to be taken the wrong way. You say it wasn't your intent, but it is a rigged question that could have been used to invalidate me as a madman. It's a very dangerous question to put out there because it can very easily be used to completely destroy a members credibility and ostracize them from this community. I've already experienced that because I don't like the Piko Piko Hammer and would rather not also be considered a manman on top of that.

Firstly, I want to thank you for clarifying what you meant and not getting even more angry and making this topic awkward. But onto actually addressing your points.

It's interesting that you see Amy as an "antagonist" with the way that you described her,  but I'm not sure I necessarily agree with it. In the most basic literary sense, an antagonist is a character that opposes the protagonist in some way, someone for him to overcome. That's not really how I would describe Amy. She never opposes Sonic, intentionally or otherwise. Her role is more akin to that of a standard Damsel In Distress to force Sonic to act. If we look at Sonic & Amy as the antithesis to Mario & Peach; Mario rescues Peach from Bowser in a classic "hero saves damsel from a reptilian creature"; the audience cares because they wish to see the damsel safe and for the hero to earn her affection, which we see when Peach usually rewards Mario with a kiss or cake after the game is over. Sonic & Amy on the other hand are...different. As her creators have said, Sonic is not interested in Amy or getting any type of reward for saving  her. Sonic saves Amy because he's heroic at the end of the day, but more often than not, Sonic is more concerned with stopping whatever Eggman is plotting while rescuing Amy feels kind of secondary. It's notable that in Sonic CD,  Amy herself only appears twice, while the game puts all of its attention on Metal Sonic as an antagonist for Sonic to overcome (hence all of those projectors that you see) and as a result, Amy feels like an afterthought; the player's focus isn't on rescuing her, but defeating Metal Sonic. So from the get-go, Amy already feels like an afterthought which isn't exactly a good first impression for a character that's going to continue recurring for years to come. And Amy would kind of reprise those roles in the Adventure games, being a damsel that forces Sonic to act. This isn't to say that she doesn't do anything else, but that's her main contributions to the main plot. The game is aware of it too because in both games, she expresses annoyance at how she's always rescued and that she never gets to do anything. You yourself described her as a hindrance and an obstacle to Sonic, but the thing is, that's not an endearing character trait...at least to the series' primary demographic of young boys. A character that's a hindrance and that the main character is actively annoyed at encountering can only be described as "The Load"

And note, this is not say that Amy is a bad character because she's a liability. She arguably still maintained audience sympathy by virtue of being a lovable and positive character that tried her best despite not quite being on the boys' level. But then her character became much more aggressive and obnoxious through stuff like Sonic X, and that audience sympathy was slowly evaporating. So now she's a liability and an unpleasant character, those aren't exactly the traits you want in a character that's supposed to be one of the good guys. To give a comparison, it's similar to the reception that Sakura Haruno of Naruto fame gets (the two characters bear an uncanny resemblance at that...), an obnoxious and violent character who's only contribution is standing on the sidelines while the boys handle the real work. It's to the point where Sakura is a meme for how badly the story treats her and how unpopular she is within the fandom. Thankfully Amy never got to that point because she was sidelined after a while, but still. But yea, that's why Amy tends to get a frosty reception; it's not that her character is bad or uninteresting, but her role just simply doesn't allow her many moments to shine, especially if you claim that she's meant to be a hindrance and a liability, you can't really expect a character like that to be that popular with the audience unless her personality was lovable enough to counteract it and even then, it would be ideal for her to actually have meaningful contributions that actually help Sonic. (like the 06 example). This is why Tails has endured, because even if he's not as capable as Sonic, he can help out in his own way that benefits him and his personality is likable. 

But I'm not done yet, because now I'm going to address Knuckles and why fandom generally gives him more narrative importance. 

----

Unlike Amy, Knuckles was an antagonist in his debut; there's no way around that, his first appearance has him stripping you of the power that you earned from Sonic 2 and then laughing at your misfortune and then spends the entire game screwing with Sonic (aka you, the player) and hindering his progress through the game. Similar to what I described with Metal Sonic, this gives Sonic and the player an extra incentive to want to beat Knuckles. So when Knuckles is betrayed by Eggman, and he leaves the sanctity of his island to Sonic, you kind of feel sorry for him, because while he was a jerk, he was just used by Eggman. And after the main conflict was over, Knuckles goes through his own scenario of keeping his island safe, and this time he does it without Sonic's help and succeeds, which establishes that he's just as capable as Sonic and serves to redeem him in the eyes of the player. That's why Knuckles enjoys so much reverence in the fanbase, even if it's mostly nostalgia; because he's the first truly dynamic character the series had going from an antagonist, to an ally, and finally becoming a hero in his own right all in his debut game. Comparing Amy and Knuckles, the latter just leaves a lasting impression on you.

Unfortunately, as you said, Knuckles doesn't enjoy that level of reverence in subsequent appearances and I feel it's mostly a combination of Sega trying to satisfy the fans of the character that want him to appear more, and not really making the effort to integrate his personality and role properly in Sonic's adventures. But the narrative role that Knuckles gets revered for so much despite his constant mishandlings is that he serves as a foil to our protagonist; foils serve the main narrative purpose of contrasting and highlighting traits that our protagonist doesn't have. You see stuff like Knuckles' strength being compared to Sonic's speed, or how Knuckles is described as a stationary mountain to Sonic's free-roaming spirit, and they have the classic Red & Blue dichotomy. Unlike Tails and Amy, who have more ancillary (but no less important!!) roles in Sonic's adventures as a sidekick and a damsel, Knuckles is capable all on his own (as his theme song so proudly describes...) and can stand on equal footing with Sonic as an ally, being the closest thing to "The Lancer". The contrasts between him and Sonic is what drives intrigue about him from fans, and that's generally what writers like Ian Flynn focus on when he's used. That's not to say he's all important and needs to appear all of the time and it doesn't necessarily make his character more important than Amy's, I'm just explaining why the fandom in general tends to put him on a pedestal regardless if he actually deserves it or not. Fandoms are weird.

 

Personally speaking, both Amy and Knuckles can serve different narrative roles and neither are particularly more important than the other; it all depends on how they're written and integrated. Both characters have been on the backburner lately though, so it's kind of hard to say what their narrative roles are when everything has been revolving around Sonic & Tails lately. 

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

You mean that one line in the scene that has unfortunate connotations that most people took from it?

Amy's reputation at that point wasn't exactly good at that point in time, so I'm not shocked people took it the wrong way. 

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Just wanted to I'm glad to see one of you acknowledge that they are different characters who can generally serve distinct purposes.

Also I'm not the only one who noticed Amy & Sakura's near sweatdrop worthy similarities. 

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1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

Just wanted to I'm glad to see one of you acknowledge that they are different characters who can generally serve distinct purposes.

Also I'm not the only one who noticed Amy & Sakura's near sweatdrop worthy similarities. 

I figured this out years ago and it still bugs the fuck out of me how similar they are. 

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