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Plasme

I want a true Solo Sonic game.

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49 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Ever since Sonic 2, this quality of the franchise has been thrown away because Sonic and Tails is the default. Also, Tails features to save the day when you beat Eggman in both Sonic 2 and 3, even if you play as Sonic alone.

This is the weirdest part to me. You mention Amy and Metal don't count even though they appear in game (and in the ending in Amy's cases), but Tails saving Sonic...undermines Sonic or Sonic's rivalry with Eggman, I guess? Even though in both 2 and S&K, Sonic has just defeated Eggman?

I understand Sonic struggles with handling subplots with other characters but that doesn't mean they just shouldn't exist.

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Uh, you do know that Shahra was supposed to be working with Erazor right?

13 minutes ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

Sonic and the Secret Rings has one of my favorite stories in the entire franchise, not just the games. I loved the twist at the end with how Shahra was the Erazor Djinn's lamp brought to life through his magic. Because she was the lamp he spent thousands of years trapped in she understood all his pain and torment and still sympathized with him despite how much his anger twisted him. That's why when Sonic wished for a dying Shahra "to go back to the way you were!" Erazor Djinn's lamp was restored, Shahra granted Sonic's wish before she "died".


It's a really clever revelation that I never see any one mention online.

Wth 0_o

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37 minutes ago, Wraith said:

How would you all make the dynamic between Sonic and Eggman more interesting/meaningful? I never saw a point in escalating it because eventually the two have to reset back to some sort of status quo so we can go back to business as usual, but I don't have much of a problem with how their rivalry is handled in the games anyway. Sonic's friends being present or not they usually have good enough chemistry in the games where they're actually speaking.

This is something I was thinking about recently, actually.

Eggman is supposedly a genius, so I don't see why he isn't several steps ahead of the main cast very often. He needs to be leveraging Sonic's weaknesses against him, and I don't mean his inability to swim: his "act first, think later" tendencies and his concern for helping people (friends, small animals) are huge traits just begging to be exploited, and ironically the only time I can remember this being used against him was in Sonic Lost World by the Deadly Six.

I want to see Sonic in genuine trouble when facing off against the main villain. The status quo protects Sonic and his closest friends from ever completely losing, but I don't think I've ever felt Eggman was ever really in control of any situation. I could cite the classic games' final bosses as exceptions, but honestly that's because I'm able to read into it how I want with the lack of dialogue. I would love to see Eggman anticipate Sonic's actions for once and use it to his advantage, ya know? 

Likewise, from Sonic's perspective, it feels like there's not much to go on aside from him wanting to stop Eggman for it's own sake. I don't think he's doing it to protect peace or save the animals or anything at this point because you never see him caring about that. Except Sonic Lost World. I'm not saying it needs to be significantly more complicated than "Eggman does a bad thing, Sonic goes to stop him," but it'd be nice to see him pick up a Flicky and pat him on the head to comfort it, give a sad passing glance at a forest Eggman burned down, something. 

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Just want to point out; Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, and Unleashed are all moments when Eggman actually does outsmart Sonic. Particularly in Adventure 2 when he legitimately almost succeeded. Even as an adult, that scene really stands out as one of the few times Eggman was actually ahead of the game and Sonic had no idea he was being played. 

I'd say Adventure 1 as well to a lesser extent, because Eggman spends the entire game fucking over Sonic; any time Sonic got a Chaos Emerald, Eggman would sweep right in and swipe them, and Sonic kind of gets genuinely frustrated about it. Eggman only really loses because Sonic refuses to stay down. 

 

It's very distinct how Eggman's actions actually directed hindered and affected Sonic's progress through the game, and I feel that's a good way of making the conflict more personal. 

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11 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

This is something I was thinking about recently, actually.

Eggman is supposedly a genius, so I don't see why he isn't several steps ahead of the main cast very often. He needs to be leveraging Sonic's weaknesses against him, and I don't mean his inability to swim: his "act first, think later" tendencies and his concern for helping people (friends, small animals) are huge traits just begging to be exploited, and ironically the only time I can remember this being used against him was in Sonic Lost World by the Deadly Six.

I want to see Sonic in genuine trouble when facing off against the main villain. The status quo protects Sonic and his closest friends from ever completely losing, but I don't think I've ever felt Eggman was ever really in control of any situation. I could cite the classic games' final bosses as exceptions, but honestly that's because I'm able to read into it how I want with the lack of dialogue. I would love to see Eggman anticipate Sonic's actions for once and use it to his advantage, ya know? 

Likewise, from Sonic's perspective, it feels like there's not much to go on aside from him wanting to stop Eggman for it's own sake. I don't think he's doing it to protect peace or save the animals or anything at this point because you never see him caring about that. Except Sonic Lost World. I'm not saying it needs to be significantly more complicated than "Eggman does a bad thing, Sonic goes to stop him," but it'd be nice to see him pick up a Flicky and pat him on the head to comfort it, something. 

Yeah this is a good post. I didn't put this in my post but the height of their chemistry IMO was the very beginning of Sonic Unleashed where it turns out Eggman was willing to put up an entire fleet for the sake of leading Sonic on. It's a shame they don't carry that energy through for the rest of the game because picking on Sonic's securities wrt the werehog would have been some great stuff. 

Just treating the core conflict like it matters more and  having the two take more personal shots at eachother, that would be good. I... don't think you need to eliminate sideplots entirely to start doing this stuff though.

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What I want is a game with multiple (well made) playable characters and side characters that serve the purpose of the (well written) story significantly enough so that there's no legitimate excuse to just call them "Sonic's shitty friends". 

Seriously, I don't like many of these side characters, but they've already been introduced, so I'd prefer they not just be a 1-time thing, for the most part. The only thing I dislike more than creating crappy characters is for them to just be scrapped almost immediately after. If the only legacy a character left on the franchise is that they were considered a "shitty character", then giving them the boot doesn't really help the image of the franchise much cause the damage was already done. They should be brought back for at least one more game and have their previous faults fixed to try and undo that previous damage. Everyone thought Ahsoka Tano sucked at first with the Clone Wars was at it's very early stages but now everyone loves that character. Apply the same principle to Sonic's less respected cast and maybe then will the shitty friends meme die off.

For example, I don't like Silver much at all, but that doesn't mean I don't think he could be properly utilized for progressing the plot of a story and being integral enough and enjoyable enough of a character, playable or otherwise, for me to like him. I'll leave it up for you to decide if he did that in Sonic Forces. IMO, he didn't, but I'm at least glad they kinda tried. 

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A good way of making the conflict personal is having Eggman's actions actually have a consequence, the things Eggman does through the plot directly affect Sonic's progress, generally through hinderance. Eggman should constantly be trying to screw Sonic over and hinder his progress as much as possible. This naturally gives Sonic more motivation to want to beat him. 

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22 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Just want to point out; Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, and Unleashed are all moments when Eggman actually does outsmart Sonic. Particularly in Adventure 2 when he legitimately almost succeeded. Even as an adult, that scene really stands out as one of the few times Eggman was actually ahead of the game and Sonic had no idea he was being played. 

Especially since the game sort of implies that he was siccing Shadow on Sonic, beyond just because it was making GUN think Sonic was doing all those crimes, because he knew that Shadow was pissing Sonic off and causing him to do stupid shit without thinking.

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11 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

This is something I was thinking about recently, actually.

Eggman is supposedly a genius, so I don't see why he isn't several steps ahead of the main cast very often. He needs to be leveraging Sonic's weaknesses against him, and I don't mean his inability to swim: his "act first, think later" tendencies and his concern for helping people (friends, small animals) are huge traits just begging to be exploited, and ironically the only time I can remember this being used against him was in Sonic Lost World by the Deadly Six.

I want to see Sonic in genuine trouble when facing off against the main villain. The status quo protects Sonic and his closest friends from ever completely losing, but I don't think I've ever felt Eggman was ever really in control of any situation. I could cite the classic games' final bosses as exceptions, but honestly that's because I'm able to read into it how I want with the lack of dialogue. I would love to see Eggman anticipate Sonic's actions for once and use it to his advantage, ya know? 

Likewise, from Sonic's perspective, it feels like there's not much to go on aside from him wanting to stop Eggman for it's own sake. I don't think he's doing it to protect peace or save the animals or anything at this point because you never see him caring about that. Except Sonic Lost World. I'm not saying it needs to be significantly more complicated than "Eggman does a bad thing, Sonic goes to stop him," but it'd be nice to see him pick up a Flicky and pat him on the head to comfort it, give a sad passing glance at a forest Eggman burned down, something. 

In the first case, that sorta makes sense when you consider the characterizations and operations of the two. Eggman is generally more about overwhelming botpower and big conquest rather than setting elaborate traps or personally impeding Sonic these days. Meanwhile, the Deadly Six(or really just Zavok and Zik) were out to destroy above anything else as far as we're told and have made a art out of gauging their opponents strengths & weaknesses so they can find a way to best them. One is focused on domination while the others are more about subjugation.

Perhaps a clearer Sonic vs Eggman story IS in order.

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3 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Especially since the game sort of implies that he was siccing Shadow on Sonic, beyond just because it was making GUN think Sonic was doing all those crimes, because he knew that Shadow was pissing Sonic off and causing him to do stupid shit without thinking.

Like leaving Amy by herself :V

 

For real, they used to be really good at just having Eggman fuck shit up through the plot, and then they just stopped after Colors. 

 

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Sonic Unleashed begins with Eggman outsmarting Sonic and the stakes being very real. You also only play as Sonic in that game. 

I mentioned this in another thread but I think the solo game I'd really love would be one for Knuckles

He has a very unique moveset, but has very rarely received level design dedicated to those abilities. A whole game built around climbing/gliding/treasure hunting would be very cool and different while still retaining that Sonic feel.

 

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13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

For real, they used to be really good at just having Eggman fuck shit up through the plot, and then they just stopped after Colors. 

Does kidnapping Elise count as "Porking poop up" in the 2006 game?

B'cuz other than that he doesn't really accomplish anything.

And succeeding that is Unleashed which only has it at the start of the game.

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And I want people to stop making "Sonic & Eggman only" topics. But we can't always get what we want! Hahaa!

Seriously tho there is no appeal to the whole Sonic only thing. It is boring/lame and nothing else. I want to see the company start using the other characters in more meaningful ways, not less. I am dead tired of all these only Sonic is playable games... and no, the avatar character & multiple versions of Sonic was not a fix, it was poorly side stepping the problem.

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22 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Eggman's ass was benched by Heroes. Let's not blame everything on the funny alien game

I can somewhat excuse Heroes because it's not actually Eggman, and in Shadow and 06, he's not the main villain driving the plot. 

That said, I can say this started in Unleashed so yea...

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23 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

And I want people to stop making "Sonic & Eggman only" topics. But we can't always get what we want! Hahaa!

Seriously tho there is no appeal to the whole Sonic only thing. It is boring/lame and nothing else. I want to see the company start using the other characters in more meaningful ways, not less. I am dead tired of all these only Sonic is playable games... and no, the avatar character & multiple versions of Sonic was not a fix, it was poorly side stepping the problem.

Oh hey, haven't seen you in a while!

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1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

Eggman is supposedly a genius, so I don't see why he isn't several steps ahead of the main cast very often. He needs to be leveraging Sonic's weaknesses against him, and I don't mean his inability to swim: his "act first, think later" tendencies and his concern for helping people (friends, small animals) are huge traits just begging to be exploited, and ironically the only time I can remember this being used against him was in Sonic Lost World by the Deadly Six.

I think this is why it worked well in SA2. Thanks to the dual nature of the story Eggman was allowed to get away with more of his plans than if we were only playing as Sonic.

While it was partly Sonic's fault for leaving Amy alone on the Ark, Eggman saw a chance to lure Sonic and took it. He specifically used her to force Sonic to give him the last emerald he needs. We also see him mess with the characters in the fake emerald scene. If you play Dark story we already know that Eggman knows the emerald is fake, because the reading showed two emeralds when there should only be one left not in his possession at this point. Eggman gets Tails to reveal that the emerald is indeed a fake by bluffing. (and if you play Hero first you think Tails actually did cause Eggman to catch on) Sonic still thinks he has the upper hand at this point, wanting to both trick him with the emerald and save Amy, but then Eggman reveals where he had Sonic place it was actually where a capsule was and goes to shoot him into space.

While this is mostly one scene of him against Sonic in particular (there are other examples of this being one of his most thought out plans, even if it can be over the top), it goes to show it can be engaging when done right. As much as I enjoy the Gerald backstory, this scene has little to do with it. It's just Eggman with a big plan and using his tricks to manipulate Sonic and his friends to get what he wants.

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The structure of the plot could be changed up a bit.

Eggman tended to get more victories when his plans were in progress and not so darn close to completion.

It's like in recent games, Sonic is only stopping the last part of his plan which is conveniently the longest part and gives Sonic enough time to win.

In Sonic Unleashed Eggman gets the jump on Sonic and releases Dark Gaia (which is what he wanted already) and at some point in the story builds Eggman Land as if...he won already. But his actual plan is controlling Dark Gaia and he never does that, and that would not have happened regardless of Sonic's actions.

In Sonic Colours he's made an entire amusement park already and the ONLY thing he needs is the alien juice that mind controls people for some reason, he's literally one step away from winning until Sonic gets there. There are no real lasting victories he can achieve outside of keeping the mind controlled Tails.

In Generations since he sent everyone to the void to begin with the only thing he had to so was...defeat Sonic. In Lost World Sonic pretty much stops "his" plan before it could really begin. In Forces he wins total control of the world apparently and while Infinite apparently causes some off screen casualties, his only goal again is now to dispose of Sonic and friends.

He's kind of like Bowser now, he gets his wins at the beginning and then things snowball for him from there.

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3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

The structure of the plot could be changed up a bit.

Eggman tended to get more victories when his plans were in progress and not so darn close to completion.

It's like in recent games, Sonic is only stopping the last part of his plan which is conveniently the longest part and gives Sonic enough time to win.

In Sonic Unleashed Eggman gets the jump on Sonic and releases Dark Gaia (which is what he wanted already) and at some point in the story builds Eggman Land as if...he won already. But his actual plan is controlling Dark Gaia and he never does that, and that would've happened regardless of Sonic's actions.

In Sonic Colours he's made an entire amusement park already and the ONLY thing he needs is the alien juice that mind controls people for some reason, he's literally one step away from winning until Sonic gets there. There are no real lasting victories he can achieve outside of keeping the mind controlled Tails.

In Generations since he sent everyone to the void to begin with the only thing he had to so was...defeat Sonic. In Lost World Sonic pretty much stops "his" plan before it could really begin. In Forces he wins total control of the world apparently and while Infinite apparently causes some off screen casualties, his only goal again is now to dispose of Sonic and friends.

He's kind of like Bowser now, he gets his wins at the beginning and then things snowball for him from there.

Pretty much. That is a very good point indeed.

Of course, as I mentioned earlier, the Adventure duology and even some of the Classics had the actual progress of his plan be smaller scale and align with what the hero/antihero/playable characters were doing. As such, there was more interaction, battling, and even outpacing involved between them.

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

How would you all make the dynamic between Sonic and Eggman more interesting/meaningful? I never saw a point in escalating it because eventually the two have to reset back to some sort of status quo so we can go back to business as usual, but I don't have much of a problem with how their rivalry is handled in the games anyway. Sonic's friends being present or not they usually have good enough chemistry in the games where they're actually speaking.

 

Emphasize how Eggman's actions go against Sonic's personal values. Sonic loves freedom and can't stand injustice. Eggman enslaves innocent creatures and uses them to try and achieve world domination. Sonic loves the thrill of the fight but Eggman's actions and goals are also anathema to everthing Sonic stands for. If you took that and used it to make Sonic's battles with Eggman as charged as his confrontation with Merlina was their dynamic would be far more interesting.

 

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Just want to point out; Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, and Unleashed are all moments when Eggman actually does outsmart Sonic. Particularly in Adventure 2 when he legitimately almost succeeded. Even as an adult, that scene really stands out as one of the few times Eggman was actually ahead of the game and Sonic had no idea he was being played. 

I'd say Adventure 1 as well to a lesser extent, because Eggman spends the entire game fucking over Sonic; any time Sonic got a Chaos Emerald, Eggman would sweep right in and swipe them, and Sonic kind of gets genuinely frustrated about it. Eggman only really loses because Sonic refuses to stay down. 

 

It's very distinct how Eggman's actions actually directed hindered and affected Sonic's progress through the game, and I feel that's a good way of making the conflict more personal. 

23 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I think this is why it worked well in SA2. Thanks to the dual nature of the story Eggman was allowed to get away with more of his plans than if we were only playing as Sonic.

While it was partly Sonic's fault for leaving Amy alone on the Ark, Eggman saw a chance to lure Sonic and took it. He specifically used her to force Sonic to give him the last emerald he needs. We also see him mess with the characters in the fake emerald scene. If you play Dark story we already know that Eggman knows the emerald is fake, because the reading showed two emeralds when there should only be one left not in his possession at this point. Eggman gets Tails to reveal that the emerald is indeed a fake by bluffing. (and if you play Hero first you think Tails actually did cause Eggman to catch on) Sonic still thinks he has the upper hand at this point, wanting to both trick him with the emerald and save Amy, but then Eggman reveals where he had Sonic place it was actually where a capsule was and goes to shoot him into space.

While this is mostly one scene of him against Sonic in particular (there are other examples of this being one of his most thought out plans, even if it can be over the top), it goes to show it can be engaging when done right. As much as I enjoy the Gerald backstory, this scene has little to do with it. It's just Eggman with a big plan and using his tricks to manipulate Sonic and his friends to get what he wants.

A thousand times this. Part of what made Eggman shine in SA2 was that he was set up in such a way that Sonic couldn't simply beat him with brute force. The heroes had to use their wits to go up against him and he wasn't resting on his laurels either; Eggman was constantly adapting to the heroes actions even as they responded to his. The doctor made himself a moving target and, consequently, made SA2's plot a much more interesting Sonic vs Eggman story than Colors' "go to amusement park, shut down generator (x5), fight Eggman, the end". It also makes SA2 one of the few times where Eggman's intelligence actually feels like a real part of his character, instead of just a excuse for why he has a bunch of fancy machines to throw at Sonic.

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8 hours ago, Plasme said:

Games let you play in the shoes of the protagonist and connect you with their struggles.

Not sure I ever felt Sonic ever having a struggle, even in Sonic 1 or CD.

If you want to feel Sonic's struggle, you'd actually want to have Sonic's friends in the game. Imagine the struggle of having to put up with such poorly written, useless characters, knowing you'd get shit done faster alone, without them annoying you and holding you back.

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5 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Not sure I ever felt Sonic ever having a struggle, even in Sonic 1 or CD.

If you want to feel Sonic's struggle, you'd actually want to have Sonic's friends in the game. Imagine the struggle of having to put up with such poorly written, useless characters, knowing you'd get shit done faster alone, without them annoying you and holding you back.

I think that's part of why they have them though. (also the state of merch in Sonic 1 was pretty funny, since there was only Sonic and Eggman they even made plush of the small animals lol) What I mean is, Sonic needs to be threatened for us to feel stakes and the best way to do that is by introducing something that bothers him. This has gone from tiny animals trapped in robots to bigger animals (his friends). Funny how the arc people are praising in the comics is literally turning big animals into robots. (although from what I hear this was done in Archie and SatAM before)

When it's just him and Eggman, Sonic doesn't mind as much. He's dealt with Eggman tons of times even before the first game. If you don't mind a Pokemon example it's like Ash going against Team Rocket compared to a Gym leader. We already know with Team Rocket that Ash will win, and while there are some occasional cases of Team Rocket being awesome and actually putting up a fight, the Gyms are more of a gamble of if they will win and with more varied Pokemon so they are more tense.

I mean as much as people give Mario for lack of story, even those games have had an expanding cast over the decades. A new character can get people more excited about a game. It allows for them to try new things without making Sonic have all these sudden new abilities.

That's why I don't get the people who only want Sonic and Eggman. Even the comics who could have done Sonic only, chose to add many new characters. Sonic vs Eggman will always be the core (even in the live action movie), but these characters are added to spice things up. (ideally)

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I normally agree with you for the most part Plame but no. I like Sonic having other characters to interact with and honestly as bad I think the Adventure games have and how I definitely never want an SA2, Shadow or 06 type storyline ever to rear it's ugly head again returning to being able to play as other characters would be nice.

I love Sonic's gameplay but like mix it up. Give Knuckles a Werehog combat system, Give Tails mini Metroidvania stages to meet the 2.5D quota, Amy...I can't think of anything that wouldn't be just a Knuckles clone TBH.

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I think some people misinterpreted my intentions. I don't want to see Sonic's friends completely disappear, I just think it would be interesting to have one game which really focused on Sonic and Eggman's rivalry, without other auxiliary characters to get in the way.

A really cool minimalist take.

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