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My problems with Shadow, in concept and execution

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49 minutes ago, batson said:

So Shadow being the creation of Eggman's never before heard of grandfather is, again, exactly the kind of thing that if a fan-character had that backstoy then people would roll their eyes at it.

It could just be a story thing...

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9 minutes ago, Wraith said:

What are you even talking about?

I'm really trying not to sound like some power scaling nerd obsessed with power levels and whatnot, so I'll just try keep it as simple as possible; you said Sonic beat all of those characters, and they probably were never above him in power to begin with. Fine.

All I said was that there's no implications that Sonic was above any of those characters in their debuts. That's it. And no, this isn't me expecting them to focus on something like that, because I know it's a video game, but for the sake of argument, I'm trying to ignore the fact that Sonic is a video game for now. 

 

14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Power scaling only matters if you care for it to matter. And I don't think it does in sonic land. Silver could like, look at sonic and snap his neck. Or shadow could...I dunno break his spine in the stopped time. Those things wont happen, but they could. Whether those potential things are relevant to your perception of those characters are up to you.

Also its not accurate? Most of sonic's bouts against shadow are inconclusive and they don't fight much in general. Silver was clearly above and beyond sonic's capabilities at the time and shadow came in and saved his bacon. I think the only character sonic beat handily that became a regular cast member, is knuckles. So its not actually accurate.

And I dunno , I personally don't think " Not getting anything done when he's not around" doesn't mean anything. Its often plot contrivances. That are not believed by the audience, like forces.

Why are you quoting me, and not him when this response is aimed at that?

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15 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Also its not accurate? Most of sonic's bouts against shadow are inconclusive and they don't fight much in general.  Silver was clearly above and beyond sonic's capabilities at the time and shadow came in and saved his bacon. I think the only character sonic beat handily that became a regular cast member, is knuckles. So its not actually accurate. Particularly so nowadays when they aren't afraid of showing shadow being a pretty capable dude and doing things sonic can't do. Silver too, and blaze when she's around.

And I dunno , I personally don't think " Not getting anything done when he's not around" doesn't mean anything. Its often plot contrivances. That are not believed by the audience, like forces.

Sonic had to have won the fight against Shadow to destroy the eclipse cannon and confirm to the others that he was still alive. Sonic pretty decisively wore Blaze down in Rush. Sonic didn't beat Silver in 06 but did beat him along with Shadow again in Generations. 

To top all of that off, Forces shows the world collapsing without him being there. His presence in a conflict is pretty significant. 

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm really trying not to sound like some power scaling nerd obsessed with power levels and whatnot, so I'll just try keep it as simple as possible; you said Sonic beat all of those characters, and they probably were never above him in power to begin with. Fine.

All I said was that there's no implications that Sonic was above any of those characters in their debuts. That's it. And no, this isn't me expecting them to focus on something like that, because I know it's a video game, but for the sake of argument, I'm trying to ignore the fact that Sonic is a video game for now. 

 

I said it was arguable. If it's possible at all for Sonic to win fights with them then their superpowers can't actually be giving them that big of an advantage. I'm not actually trying to say Sonic always had it in the bag, just that he was always on even ground at worst. 

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10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 

I said it was arguable. If it's possible at all for Sonic to win fights with them then their superpowers can't actually be giving them that big of an advantage. I'm not actually trying to say Sonic always had it in the bag, just that he was always on even ground at worst. 

See, and I can accept this as a good interpretation but then doesn't it defeat the purpose of having those powers to begin with if they don't actually factor into anything? If Blaze or Silver weren't as fast as Sonic,it'd be one thing, because then their powers would be a way for them to close the gap, and I think believe that's the interpretation we're meant to accept, because neither Blaze or Silver are ever as fast as Sonic in spin off titles with their stats laid out. Sonic has speed, and Blaze and Silver have Fire and psychokinesis .

Things kind of get murky with Shadow, who to this very day, is still portrayed as Sonic's equal in speed bar none. 

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18 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic had to have won the fight against Shadow to destroy the eclipse cannon and confirm to the others that he was still alive. Sonic pretty decisively wore Blaze down in Rush. Sonic didn't beat Silver in 06 but did beat him along with Shadow again in Generations. 

 

No he didn't actually. That along with mural thing is fan speculation. Given how shadow is content with just letting the plan get blowed up until amy jogs his memory about his best friend not wanting him to murder all of humanity. They literally could have just fought and shadow just stopped caring. Shadow's goal was to blow up the planet. Heck that would actually play in to his personality in that game, because he's more than willing to screw with people and then bounce. All those games fights are up to the audience, so I cant tell you are wrong. But trying to paint that as " canon" is inaccurate.

Generations is also weird because Generations uh " canonnonicity  is weird" if you ask a guy on this site who used to work for sega it wasn't supposed to be canon just a weird time romp. Along with that , its kind of very clear all the fights you have are characters ripped from specific periods in time and then you fight them in those times. Which aren't the current versions. IE, how sonic now can just beat perfect chaos with no emeralds.  The current versions of these characters would most likely put up just as much of a fight as they did then. If not more in the case of shadow , because he has a bunch of crazy bullshit now.

Blaze is a good point though.

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To top all of that off, Forces shows the world collapsing without him being there. His presence in a conflict is pretty significant. 

Sure I guess but given how poorly received the characters were in that game and how shadow had to effectively be removed from it to make the plot work. It speaks to how the idea you are suggesting is , well bad.  And along with the rest of the game, is a misinterpretation of what made previous games special. Particularly those with serious stories. Forces is an example, but its an example that's so awful that it proves that it shouldn't be a thing.

 

That said , none of this matters. I have found definitive proof on twitter that shadow's concept is perfect and he is a perfect boi. Thus invalidating the claims of the OP

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3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

 

That said , none of this matters. I have found definitive proof on twitter that shadow's concept is perfect and he is a perfect boi.

You right.

 

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

See, and I can accept this as a good interpretation but then doesn't it defeat the purpose of having those powers to begin with if they don't actually factor into anything? If Blaze or Silver weren't as fast as Sonic,it'd be one thing, because then their powers would be a way for them to close the gap, and I think believe that's the interpretation we're meant to accept, because neither Blaze or Silver are ever as fast as Sonic in spin off titles with their stats laid out. Sonic has speed, and Blaze and Silver have Fire and psychokinesis .

Things kind of get murky with Shadow, who to this very day, is still portrayed as Sonic's equal in speed bar none. 

Like I was saying earlier they were characters made to push Sonic at the time. He just usually figures out how to beat them one way or another. Or let Amy and Shadow bully them into stopping in Silver's case.

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51 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm not really saying its an issue, I'm just making a point; but Blaze canonically can do everything Sonic can do, but has fire powers on top of that. So like...what does Sonic have if Blaze is already as fast as him?

You're looking at it backwards. It's not what Sonic can do that Blaze can't, it's what Blaze can do what Sonic can't. You know, cause he's the main character. Sonic is the measuring stick, not Shadow/Silver/Blaze, whoever. Blaze and Silver and Shadow need these extra abilties specifically to stand out compared to Sonic. 

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41 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If you're just gonna conflate two issues that have nothing to do with each other to justify your hatred of Shadow, then I don't really see any point in talking about this any more.

Just say you hate Shadow dude and leave us alone.

I actually don't hate Shadow. I actually appreciate a lot of what Sega was obviously trying to do with him and the game he debuted in. They tried to keep the Sonic series cool, which is something that the series should always strive for (and something that they sadly abondoned in certain games of the 2010's) and they tried to do that partially by introducing a cool new character. And with that character's backstory, they tried to widen the scope of what themes that the series could tackle. Those are admirable goals. I just think their execution ultimately failed and that they ended up creating a character that was ill-thought out, clichéd, over-the-top and downright silly. And then they went ahead in the following games and gave him an absolutely nonsensical storyline that tainted the character further. Shadow, to me, is a character born out of the marriage between good intentions and bad decisions. But I don't hate him. Over the years, I've actually grown rather nostalgic towards what the character embodies; namely an era of Sonic games where Sega had the ambition to keep the series cool and steeped in attitude. I quite enjoy it when Shadow shows up in modern games, because he admittadly brings a fresh air with him that stands out against the comedic and juvinile narratives of most current Sonic games. The cutscenes with Shadow was my favorite part of Rise of Lyric, for instance.

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2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You right.

 

I am look at this

Shadow's perfect. In concept and execution This speaks to the narrative depth and power that this character exudes in large quantities. 

2 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

You're looking at it backwards. It's not what Sonic can do that Blaze can't, it's what Blaze can do what Sonic can't. You know, cause he's the main character. Sonic is the measuring stick, not Shadow/Silver/Blaze, whoever. Blaze and Silver and Shadow need these extra abilties specifically to stand out compared to Sonic. 

Also this

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4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

No he didn't actually. That along with mural thing is fan speculation. Given how shadow is content with just letting the plan get blowed up until amy jogs his memory about his best friend not wanting him to murder all of humanity. They literally could have just fought and shadow just stopped caring. Shadow's goal was to blow up the planet. Heck that would actually play in to his personality in that game, because he's more than willing to screw with people and then bounce. All those games fights are up to the audience, so I cant tell you are wrong. But trying to paint that as " canon" is inaccurate.

The game doesn't explicitly confirm it but considering Shadow tells him "I can't let you live" it wouldn't make much sense for him to just stop caring and walk away.

1 minute ago, thumbs13 said:

You're looking at it backwards. It's not what Sonic can do that Blaze can't, it's what Blaze can do what Sonic can't. You know, cause he's the main character. Sonic is the measuring stick, not Shadow/Silver/Blaze, whoever. Blaze and Silver and Shadow need these extra abilties specifically to stand out compared to Sonic. 

Characters can have unique traits to help them stand out without also having everything that the main character has.

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5 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

You're looking at it backwards. It's not what Sonic can do that Blaze can't, it's what Blaze can do what Sonic can't. You know, cause he's the main character. Sonic is the measuring stick, not Shadow/Silver/Blaze, whoever. Blaze and Silver and Shadow need these extra abilities specifically to stand out compared to Sonic. 

And that makes sense for Silver and Blaze, who if we take spin off stat spreads into account, are canonically slower than Sonic. But Shadow is not lol. In almost every appearance, he possess damn near every ability that Sonic has, and his stat spread consistently puts him and Sonic as equals in terms of speed to this very day. 

That's where the question comes from; Shadow, canonically speaking, can do everything Sonic can. 

 

10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

 

That said , none of this matters. I have found definitive proof on twitter that shadow's concept is perfect and he is a perfect boi. Thus invalidating the claims of the OP

This is factually true. 

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Like I was saying earlier they were characters made to push Sonic at the time. He just usually figures out how to beat them one way or another. Or let Amy and Shadow bully them into stopping in Silver's case.

What's your take on Shadow still being considered Sonic's equal, or if he even is at all?

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Just now, Kuzu said:

What's your take on Shadow still being considered Sonic's equal, or if he even is at all?

Shadow can do everything Sonic can, but can he do it as well? I'd say no, based on everything we've seen. There's no piece of flavor text confirming that or anything but that seems like the logical way of looking at it. Shadow's extra powers give him an edge that Sonic can balance out by just being better than Shadow at the things they DO have in common. 

I feel very strongly that Shadow isn't a problem child and most of the critiques made against him are made in poor faith or aren't really all that well thought out. This whole thing where people try to say he invalidates Sonic with his superpowers is just one of them. 

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1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Shadow can do everything Sonic can, but can he do it as well? I'd say no, based on everything we've seen. There's no piece of flavor text confirming that or anything but that seems like the logical way of looking at it. Shadow's extra powers give him an edge that Sonic can balance out by just being better than Shadow at the things they DO have in common. 

I feel very strongly that Shadow isn't a problem child and most of the critiques made against him are made in poor faith or aren't really all that well thought out. This whole thing where people try to say he invalidates Sonic with his superpowers is just one of them. 

I'd honestly agree this was the case and I wish it was something they made more apparent in gameplay; but I don't know how you actually would go about doing it. 

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Just now, Wraith said:

Shadow can do everything Sonic can, but can he do it as well? I'd say no, based on everything we've seen. There's no piece of flavor text confirming that or anything but that seems like the logical way of looking at it. Shadow's extra powers give him an edge that Sonic can balance out by just being better than Shadow at the things they DO have in common. 

I feel very strongly that Shadow isn't a problem child and most of the critiques made against him are made in poor faith or aren't really all that well thought out. This whole thing where people try to say he invalidates Sonic with his superpowers is just one of them. 

Can't wait for shadow to show up in in the third sonic movie film trailer and for those poor faith arguments to intensify.

Just now, Kuzu said:

I'd honestly agree this was the case and I wish it was something they made more apparent in gameplay; but I don't know how you actually would go about doing it. 

You mean more power use in gameplay?

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3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'd honestly agree this was the case and I wish it was something they made more apparent in gameplay; but I don't know how you actually would go about doing it. 

Blaze actually has a noticeably lower top speed than Sonic in Rush with better air mobility as a trade off. Similar tweaks could be made to Shadow if it's that big of a deal.

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6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

You mean more power use in gameplay?

More like showing how Shadow's speed based abilities are inferior to Sonic's; they both have the same abilities, but Sonic should naturally be more adept at using them. So I guess a more...power and less refined focus for Shadow in gameplay is a good example. 

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Blaze actually has a noticeably lower top speed than Sonic in Rush with better air mobility as a trade off. Similar tweaks could be made to Shadow if it's that big of a deal.

His game and 06 gave Shadow more of a focus on combat than speed, but then he starts deviating from the gameplay principles established by Sonic. I'm reluctant to give him more of a focus on power since that Knuckles` territory though. Honestly, him just being a skin of Sonic is acceptable at this point. 

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1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

More like showing how Shadow's speed based abilities are inferior to Sonic's; they both have the same abilities, but Sonic should naturally be more adept at using them. So I guess a more...power and less refined focus for Shadow in gameplay is a good example. 

Sonic has more natural navigational tools. You know how sonic just stopped spin dashing. Have him spin dash again.  Have sonic just be a bit faster and his navigational abilities be based more around parkour and moving around the environment.

On the opposite end, ( and this is also how you can have two types of speed gameplay) shadow has a boost system and have shadow use his abilities to navigate the environment instead of parkour

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3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

His game and 06 gave Shadow more of a focus on combat than speed, but then he starts deviating from the gameplay principles established by Sonic. I'm reluctant to give him more of a focus on power since that Knuckles` territory though. Honestly, him just being a skin of Sonic is acceptable at this point. 

Have him lean into a niche that already exists in the game. That doesn't have to be combat. It can be something simple like air mobility. 

Other than that most people wouldn't even have a problem with him playing similarly because that's exactly what he was established as doing. The only people angry would be the ones that always have an axe to grind with Shadow no matter what.

I imagine the next argument would be "If he's going to play the same, then what's the point?" Like they've never gotten a kick out of playing as Luigi in Mario before. 

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To be fair, Luigi does control noticeably different from Mario, but is still pretty much the same otherwise.. Most of the time Shadow is used, he's either a literal clone of Sonic or deviates heavily from what he can do. 

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52 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Magneto exists in his own series, and is almost never involved in Spider Man stories. 

Shadow, Silver, and Blaze all exist within Sonic's stories; it's one thing when they're not involved, but when they are, the questions begs what makes Sonic special.

Characters bring more to a team setting than just super powers. Captain America is nowhere near the power level of Iron Man, Thor, or the Hulk but he's still a vital part of the Avengers because his leadership and tactical abilities are what allows them to work as an actual team, instead of a just bunch of powerful dudes who happen to be punching bad guys in proximity to each other.

Sonic may not have Cap's tactical mind, but he has been shown to have the kind of determination that lets him push onward and claim victory, even when more powerful characters would have cut their losses, and a charisma which lets him rally others behind him and inspire them to do the same, things which Shadow lacks.

 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

"Sonic needs to be cool to adults" is still the most insane take I repeatedly see in the fanbase, probably.

How are you defining cool? If you mean "cool" in terms of being trendy, or hip, or whatever, then yeah, I agree.

If you're talking "cool" in terms of being a stylish, badass, motherfuckin' superhero then I've got to disagree. More of this please: 

 

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4 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

 

 

How are you defining cool? If you mean "cool" in terms of being trendy, or hip, or whatever, then yeah, I agree.

If you're talking "cool" in terms of being a stylish, badass, motherfuckin' superhero then I've got to disagree. More of this please: 

 

I was specifically talking about the point made by the OP that Shadow and things of his ilk get made fun of by adult gamers as if a series aimed at 11 year olds should care. There are a lot of 'adult gamers' that wouldn't touch a Mario game either but I don't see people begging Nintendo to cave for them. 

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9 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Characters bring more to a team setting than just super powers. Captain America is nowhere near the power level of Iron Man, Thor, or the Hulk but he's still a vital part of the Avengers because his leadership and tactical abilities are what allows them to work as an actual team, instead of a just bunch of powerful dudes who happen to be punching bad guys in proximity to each other.

Sonic may not have Cap's tactical mind, but he has been shown to have the kind of determination that lets him push onward and claim victory, even when more powerful characters would have cut their losses, and a charisma which lets him rally others behind him and inspire them to do the same, things which Shadow lacks.

 

I was mainly speaking in terms of power-sets; I already know Sonic's charismatic personality is what puts him above his peers. Also, this series also never really focuses on traits that benefit outside of a superpower setting...at least nowadays it doesn't (Poor Tails).

 

Also, I should note that a major criticism of the first Avengers movie was that Cap felt "useless" compared to the likes of Thor and Hulk. It wasn't until Winter Soldier where Cap could establish how capable he was without the others around. 

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1 hour ago, batson said:

I actually don't hate Shadow. I actually appreciate a lot of what Sega was obviously trying to do with him and the game he debuted in. They tried to keep the Sonic series cool, which is something that the series should always strive for (and something that they sadly abondoned in certain games of the 2010's) and they tried to do that partially by introducing a cool new character. And with that character's backstory, they tried to widen the scope of what themes that the series could tackle. Those are admirable goals. I just think their execution ultimately failed and that they ended up creating a character that was ill-thought out, clichéd, over-the-top and downright silly. And then they went ahead in the following games and gave him an absolutely nonsensical storyline that tainted the character further. Shadow, to me, is a character born out of the marriage between good intentions and bad decisions. But I don't hate him. Over the years, I've actually grown rather nostalgic towards what the character embodies; namely an era of Sonic games where Sega had the ambition to keep the series cool and steeped in attitude. I quite enjoy it when Shadow shows up in modern games, because he admittadly brings a fresh air with him that stands out against the comedic and juvinile narratives of most current Sonic games. The cutscenes with Shadow was my favorite part of Rise of Lyric, for instance.

This logic makes no sense to me; you can literally say this about almost every single thing about this series; good concept and bad execution.

So why are you singling out Shadow for this? I feel like you're only doing so because he's popular and thus is an easy target.

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