My problems with Shadow, in concept and execution

[Wraith]

16 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

It's more so rejecting what people think he is, a weapon. A point that would be undermined by making him shitter sonic in lore.

Like you talk about the OP but are doing the exact same thing. Arguing that a character should be made worse for minor lore gripes no one gives a shit about because they love the character.

Just let cool shit be cool.

It's less a minor lore gripe and more like a massive hole in SA2's logic. One that obviously doesn't hurt the game much, but one I thought would be cool to address in a followup nonetheless. 

I don't see how it makes the character worse.

[Shadowlax]

braggadocious

16 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Dude, comic writers  and even manga writers try to contextualize shit through retcons and continuity reboots, so this reasoning doesn't hold water.

Reboots are often made by subsequent writers. Trying to gain the freedom to write stories that might not fit neatly into one universe. Which kind of speaks to my point. They are disregarding cohesion and lore to make something they does a better job at communicating what they need to communicate.

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When you're telling a story, it's the writers job to sell that this is a cohesive and logical universe unless you just don't give a shit about the story you're trying to make. 

No, when you are telling a story, your job is to communicate the story and or the message you are trying to get across. There are famous narratives that don't make sense, have endings, just have things inserted into them at random because it serves something larger to communicated. The idea that every story or art itself needs to be logical is a fundamental misunderstanding of story telling.

One of my favorite stories is about a guy , actively lying about events that do not make sense claiming that its things that he has actually done. It is a story intentionally made to not make sense, its about a guy bragadouculsy lying about all the adventures he went on.

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And they clearly were trying to tell a story with Shadow, so this idea that all of the shit about him "doesn't matter" is some grade A bullshit and it feels like you're trying to stifle discussion.

No , they were trying to communicate a message. As do a lot of sonic stories do. Sonic Stories often do not try to make complete sense. They are often trying to communicate overall messages and themes to the player and audience.

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It feels like you only care about Shadow's story in a vacuum, and not how it fits in the universe it's set in.

Not to be rude, but it just sounds like not only do you not know anything about story telling. You don't even know how sonic has been telling its stories the whole time.

6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It's less a minor lore gripe and more like a massive hole in SA2's logic. One that obviously doesn't hurt the game much, but one I thought would be cool to address in a followup nonetheless. 

I don't see how it makes the character worse.

I'll just agree to disagree. I think what makes characters truly interesting are in the details, and I think cohesion or canon can be sacrificed to keep that alive. . That's just my stance on things. You don't think it does much and value cohesion

[Diogenes]

28 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow as of currently is an alien science experiment with infinite potential. To confine him as to that mural just makes him shitty not real sonic. And what's the point of that, narrative cohesion? What do you gain.

A thematic connection and tension between the two.

28 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow's game does the opposite of that. The whole point of shadow's game is is essentially saying " I'm my own person and my fate is what i choose" but also it doesn't give him a destiny.

That may be what some of it says, but it still has him being the only person who can stop the Black Arms because of his connection to them, and him following up on Gerald and Maria's hopes for him to protect humanity (from the Black Arms and in general). That's at least as much of a destiny as the other characters you named. Plus Sonic's just as much an "I go my own way" type of character but you're still ascribing a mystic destiny to him based on...just the Hidden Palace mural? Even that's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, is Sonic the way he is because of fate, or is he who he is first, and the mural is just a record of it? Considering his own philosophy I'd argue the latter is more fitting.

19 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But even the best comic writers will tell you, sometimes shit just happens. It's like life, sometimes shit just happens.

Fiction isn't real life, everything in a story is placed there by the author. Nothing happens in a story without a purpose, even if that purpose is to say "sometimes there is no purpose", and even if it is, they still have to actually make that point in the story, not just drop the subject and forget about it.

[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

I'll just agree to disagree. I think what makes characters truly interesting are in the details, and I think cohesion or canon can be sacrificed to keep that alive. . That's just my stance on things. You don't think it does much and value cohesion

I've actually argued that individual Sonic games should have their own styles and storytelling over cohesion before. 

It just literally makes no sense to draw attention to how these two characters are similar with every aspect of your art, from story, to mechanics, if it isn't REALLY supposed to mean anything. This is a thing SA2 does by itself before we get into the other games. 

I also don't get how this devalues details. Shadow is still choosing to be an independent. This just adds another layer to that, if anything. It's cohesive while also being a neat detail. Look at that!

[thumbs13]

Yeah, trying to bring everything back to one specific event is always gonna be annoying. It makes the world smaller and there's not really a good reason for it. It's why I hated those fan theories about Silver being Shadow and Amy's son. I'm glad we're past the 2000s stage where Gerald Robotnik was somehow responsible for everything that's ever happened. 

Shadow looks like Sonic because he's a reflection of his character, yeah sure. But that doesn't mean everything he does has to do with Sonic. As someone said before, he's the Akuma to Sonic's Ryu, with Metal Sonic being Evil Ryu. 

[Kuzu]

27 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

braggadocious

Reboots are often made by subsequent writers. Trying to gain the freedom to write stories that might not fit neatly into one universe. Which kind of speaks to my point. They are disregarding cohesion and lore to make something they does a better job at communicating what they need to communicate.

No, when you are telling a story, your job is to communicate the story and or the message you are trying to get across. There are famous narratives that don't make sense, have endings, just have things inserted into them at random because it serves something larger to communicated. The idea that every story or art itself needs to be logical is a fundamental misunderstanding of story telling.

One of my favorite stories is about a guy , actively lying about events that do not make sense claiming that its things that he has actually done. It is a story intentionally made to not make sense, its about a guy bragadouculsy lying about all the adventures he went on.

No , they were trying to communicate a message. As do a lot of sonic stories do. Sonic Stories often do not try to make complete sense. They are often trying to communicate overall messages and themes to the player and audience.

Not to be rude, but it just sounds like not only do you not know anything about story telling. You don't even know how sonic has been telling its stories the whole time.

No, it's more like you're refusing to understand what the fundamental message of what I'm trying to say and then pass it off as me not understanding to discredit my position

All narratives in storytelling run on some level of internal logic, if that were not the case, a story would literally just be a series of events happening without anything tying them together. No, everything in a story does not have to tie together to be good, but it's still the job of the writer to make the story make sense for the reader so they can follow what is happening. 

We're deviating heavily from the original point; no Shadow does not need to be tied to the larger narrative of Sonic to work, he functions fine as he is now. The point the others have been trying to tell you is that there's nothing wrong with actually recontextualizing him into something that fits within the series, without removing what makes the character work. 

For some reason, you're seeing this as some binary issue of "You can't do that because it ruins Shadow" because it goes against what you personally like about the character. Fine, but don't accuse me of not understanding how storytelling works when you're the one trying to argue against basic storytelling principles because it goes against your personal views. 

[Shadowlax]

 

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

It just literally makes no sense to draw attention to how these two characters are similar with every aspect of your art, from story, to mechanics, if it isn't REALLY supposed to mean anything. This is a thing SA2 does by itself before we get into the other games. 

Its just a fun thing.

Example: Every time batman and Green arrow team up, they are often compared because they legit almost the same character. Like exactly the same. Dead parents, giant corporation, protege's , animal themed seductress girlfriend, been hit up by the league of assassins , embezzling corporate funds to make gadgets caves the whole nine. They are the same dude. Not exactly the same, but similar enough to which its often noted and stories are written about it.

But like with sonic and shadow. Ollie is ( in most depictions ) a far more jovial and jokey dude, who's kind of just trying his best. Batman is a lot more dour and pragmatic and prone to over thinking and over planning. They both have their strengths and faults its more so about how these two handle their perspective situations. And I believe this to be the same thing with sonic and shadow. They don't have to be connected, its not why that matters. Its about how they use their tools , in the case of the hedgehogs their powers , and how they carry themselves. That's why that comparison is drawn.

" They are kinda of the same, but oh they are different!"

very common story telling technique.

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

I also don't get how this devalues details. Shadow is still choosing to be an independent. This just adds another layer to that, if anything. It's cohesive while also being a neat detail. Look at that!

Shadow being this isolated thin the sonic universe with infinite potential is more interesting as a detail to him and to everyone else around him, than just canonically making him shitty sonic. That's how I feel. Shadow being this full departure from sonic everything is fascinating. And to rip him back into lore is uninteresting and boring to me. That's how it devalues it. Lore is an abysss, canon is an abyss. Let cool shit be cool. If lore and canon serve cool shit so be it, but the moment shit becomes uninteresting disregard it.

And not only that I kind of like if more characters were kind of like that. Like say, sonic himself. I really do not like that mural. Like it Hate it. I HATE It.

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

A thematic connection and tension between the two.

Cool, why does that matter? What does the narrative of each character gain from this. And it doesn't add tension sonic and shadow's personalities and perspectives do that on their own.

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That may be what some of it says, but it still has him being the only person who can stop the Black Arms because of his connection to them, and him following up on Gerald and Maria's hopes for him to protect humanity (from the Black Arms and in general). That's at least as much of a destiny as the other characters you named.

But that isn't his job, and he's not preordained to do that. Sonic has a whole ass mural dedicated to how he's a hero. Knuckles is decended from the ancient people who made that mural and was given a legendary job in relation to it. Blaze is a princess from an entire other reality meant to guard gems and to protect that world.

Shadow had a friend who was nice to him and she said " Be nice pretty please" as she bleed out and he did it. And his alien dad's mind control didn't work because shadow's just strong willed. Those are different. Shadow's entire life is " oops and whoopsies " that lead to shadow being shadow. As opposed to literal destinies and ancient jobs given to you. Shadow is just trying to make his friend proud of him and make her death not meaningless.

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Plus Sonic's just as much an "I go my own way" type of character but you're still ascribing a mystic destiny to him based on...just the Hidden Palace mural? Even that's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, is Sonic the way he is because of fate, or is he who he is first, and the mural is just a record of it? Considering his own philosophy I'd argue the latter is more fitting.

Uh...yeah. a giant mural proclaiming he would be a legendary hero that saves the planet and then him proceeding to do that exact thing over and over again is kind of the definitions of prophecy and fate in fiction. Fate in the sonic universe leads him and eggman to clash and for him to be victorious

Maria's promise is nebulous. And his creation is happenstance.

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Fiction isn't real life, everything in a story is placed there by the author.

 

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Nothing happens in a story without a purpose, even if that purpose is to say "sometimes there is no purpose", and even if it is, they still have to actually make that point in the story, not just drop the subject and forget about it.

Maybe the point isn't a lack of purpose. Maybe that lack of purpose just serves a cool thing.

Maybe there are these two cool individuals that have similar powers that use em differently. That's kinda neat.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

No, it's more like you're refusing to understand what the fundamental message of what I'm trying to say and then pass it off as me not understanding to discredit my position

 

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

All narratives in storytelling run on some level of internal logic, if that were not the case, a story would literally just be a series of events happening without anything tying them together. No, everything in a story does not have to tie together to be good, but it's still the job of the writer to make the story make sense for the reader so they can follow what is happening. 

So this is fair right. Not every story is some craziness breaking normal narrative convention. There is a logic and a sequence of events. However there are plenty of stories that break normal points of narrative cohesion to tell more interesting and engaging stories. And if the audience enjoys it and it serves the narrative. Then what's the problem?

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

We're deviating heavily from the original point; no Shadow does not need to be tied to the larger narrative of Sonic to work, he functions fine as he is now. The point the others have been trying to tell you is that there's nothing wrong with actually recontextualizing him into something that fits within the series, without removing what makes the character work. 

I disagree with that. Which is my point. Shadow being a weird mysterious figure is part of his allure. And works toward a larger and character and themes communicated by the series and contextualizing that specifically in the way suggested. Looses that.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

For some reason, you're seeing this as some binary issue of "You can't do that because it ruins Shadow" because it goes against what you personally like about the character.

Yeah, it takes a cool thing that is unique to very few characters, utter narrative isolation. And removes it in service of " lore" , I think that's bad.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Fine, but don't accuse me of not understanding how storytelling works when you're the one trying to argue against basic storytelling principles because it goes against your personal views. 

No I accused you of that because you said this

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When you're telling a story, it's the writers job to sell that this is a cohesive and logical universe unless you just don't give a shit about the story you're trying to make. 

Which is a very limited view of what story telling can be. In a thread about sonic a series that often forgoes cohesive story telling for rule of cool .

[Wraith]

19 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Its just a fun thing.

Example: Every time batman and Green arrow team up, they are often compared because they legit almost the same character. Like exactly the same. Dead parents, giant corporation, protege's , animal themed seductress girlfriend, been hit up by the league of assassins , embezzling corporate funds to make gadgets caves the whole nine. They are the same dude. Not exactly the same, but similar enough to which its often noted and stories are written about it.

But like with sonic and shadow. Ollie is ( in most depictions ) a far more jovial and jokey dude, who's kind of just trying his best. Batman is a lot more dour and pragmatic and prone to over thinking and over planning. They both have their strengths and faults its more so about how these two handle their perspective situations. And I believe this to be the same thing with sonic and shadow. They don't have to be connected, its not why that matters. Its about how they use their tools , in the case of the hedgehogs their powers , and how they carry themselves. That's why that comparison is drawn.

" They are kinda of the same, but oh they are different!"

very common story telling technique.

Bruce and Oliver were characters that were conceived in completely separate franchises. Nothing serious is made on their similarities because it wasn't intentional. What you're suggesting is more akin to if Spider-Man just never drew attention to the obvious similarities to him and Venom or if Dante and Vergil had no history or blood relation. Just two white haired boys with similar powers that just happened to meet up one day.

A foil to Sonic that is truly removed from him is something that would be cool to see but Shadow so obviously isn't it. He was never meant to be it. 

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Shadow being this isolated thin the sonic universe with infinite potential is more interesting as a detail to him and to everyone else around him, than just canonically making him shitty sonic. That's how I feel. Shadow being this full departure from sonic everything is fascinating. And to rip him back into lore is uninteresting and boring to me. That's how it devalues it. Lore is an abysss, canon is an abyss. Let cool shit be cool. If lore and canon serve cool shit so be it, but the moment shit becomes uninteresting disregard it.

And not only that I kind of like if more characters were kind of like that. Like say, sonic himself. I really do not like that mural. Like it Hate it. I HATE It.

 

Shadow was connected to the robotnik family from the jump. He's probably as far from an example as a completely isolated entity as it gets. In fact, it creates an inconsistency when there's all this logic as to why or how this character came to be but Sonic was somehow completely missing from that equation, despite all their similarities. If you want a character that "just is," you should be a Vector fan or something.

[Shadowlax]

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

A foil to Sonic that is truly removed from him is something that would be cool to see but Shadow so obviously isn't it. He was never meant to be it. 

Shadow was connected to the robotnik family from the jump. He's probably as far from an example as a completely isolated entity as it gets. In fact, creates an inconsistency when there's all this logic as to why or how this character came to be but Sonic was somehow completely missing from that equation, despite all their similarities. 

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He was never meant to be it

But he is. No matter how much you try and connect those dots

There ain't no dots to connect.

And that's fucking neat.

Also here's the thing about the " robotnik " family connection, its also meaningless. Eggman doesn't mention or give a shit about Gerald past like 1 game and he never mentions maria. The connection plays very little, there's speculation that maybe eggman might feel away about his grandfather being captured. But even that's more so about him thinking that geniousness  shouldn't be contained by rules and laws rather than any form of real affection.  You can literally change the names of both maria and gerald and that narrative has the exact same effect. And Gerald and maria have no effect on anyone else, but shadow.

Shadow exists in isolation. These characters for the most part don't exist outside to serve specifically him and his narrative. The robotnik name is meaningless. The meaning is how it serve the story and its characters.

You say that he was never meant to be it. But it seems he was,  that's how he was in sa2. That's how he was in heroes. That's how he was in his game where they added on the lore to make him extra isolated. And that's how he is now.

Heck its even in his got dang theme song

"Can you see all of me?
Walk into my mystery"

"I am... I am, I'm all of me
I am... I am, I'm all of me
I am... I am, I'm all of me"

That mystery has always been apart of his character, and that works for him. It allows people to interpret him however they want. Its like how most of the cast are orphans. He's like minecraft, he came from space. Hatsune mike invented him on the space colony arc.

All it really needs to be really. Because its fun man

[Diogenes]

15 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Its just a fun thing.

Example: Every time batman and Green arrow team up, they are often compared because they legit almost the same character. Like exactly the same. Dead parents, giant corporation, protege's , animal themed seductress girlfriend, been hit up by the league of assassins , embezzling corporate funds to make gadgets caves the whole nine. They are the same dude. Not exactly the same, but similar enough to which its often noted and stories are written about it.

I would assume (comics aren't my area of expertise) that Batman and Green Arrow were created independently and the similarities between them are largely coincidental.

Sonic and Shadow were not created independently. Shadow is, specifically and deliberately, Dark Sonic, a response to Sonic, a doppelganger. It's not even remotely the same situation.

15 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow being this isolated thin the sonic universe with infinite potential is more interesting as a detail to him and to everyone else around him, than just canonically making him shitty sonic. That's how I feel. Shadow being this full departure from sonic everything is fascinating.

If I wanted something that wasn't connected to anything "Sonic", I'd go to a different series. He doesn't have to be just "shitty Sonic" but as a character in the Sonic series he should have connections with other characters.

15 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

And to rip him back into lore is uninteresting and boring to me. That's how it devalues it. Lore is an abysss, canon is an abyss. Let cool shit be cool. If lore and canon serve cool shit so be it, but the moment shit becomes uninteresting disregard it.

I'm about the first person to speak against lore for lore's sake but just shoving together a bunch of "cool shit" does not actually result in good storytelling. Characters having actual connections to each other, characters' development reflecting back on each other, characters' essential natures being in conflict with each other, that's material for good storytelling.

15 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Cool, why does that matter?

I dunno man maybe I want to actually give a shit about the characters and the story and to find something meaningful in how they relate to each other instead of just think about how powerful and cool they are in their own little bubbles.

15 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But that isn't his job, and he's not preordained to do that.

He was created to do it.

15 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Uh...yeah. a giant mural proclaiming he would be a legendary hero that saves the planet and then him proceeding to do that exact thing over and over again is kind of the definitions of prophecy and fate in fiction. Fate in the sonic universe leads him and eggman to clash and for him to be victorious

For how much you say you hate that mural you seem awfully wedded to that one interpretation of it.

15 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Maybe the point isn't a lack of purpose. Maybe that lack of purpose just serves a cool thing.

Maybe there are these two cool individuals that have similar powers that use em differently. That's kinda neat.

That's bad writing. A story doesn't hammer in a point that many times to just say "lol it cool wahtever". I expect better, even from this series.

[Shadowlax]

 

 

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If I wanted something that wasn't connected to anything "Sonic", I'd go to a different series. He doesn't have to be just "shitty Sonic" but as a character in the Sonic series he should have connections with other characters.

I can't tell you what to like but I often enjoy characters who's connections to the main character are small if not non existent but just happen to know em.  Those tend to be the ones that shake things up the most. Its why I like shadow.

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I'm about the first person to speak against lore for lore's sake but just shoving together a bunch of "cool shit" does not actually result in good storytelling. Characters having actual connections to each other, characters' development reflecting back on each other, characters' essential natures being in conflict with each other, that's material for good storytelling.

No it doesn't. Telling good stories result in good stories. And that happened without the one connection being mentioned. This is a post shadow existing for two decades and remaining mad popular and relatable to people for almost two decades conversation.

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I dunno man maybe I want to actually give a shit about the characters and the story and to find something meaningful in how they relate to each other instead of just think about how powerful and cool they are in their own little bubbles.

But that already exists. Is the thing here. The year is 2020. The world is on fire, there is a literal epidemic and shadow has been a character for ...19 years. I think that's an accurate number. My point here is the connections between the characters have been made sonic and shadow have interacted for years in multiple mediums and while they have not all been gone ( as can be said with a lot of sonic material) . Its all be engaging and interesting enough on s story telling level to keep shadow one of the most popular characters in a series.

There are already connections. Maybe this specific one doesn't matter. Maybe it serves to only make the character less interesting.

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He was created to do it.

Yeah. I think , actually I think he was made to cure disease. But I agree with your point.

Think is gerald isn't a mystic. He's some dude in a lab who met an alien.  Shadow wasn't a thing guaranteed to work out, infact it was failing untill he got help. If he hadn't had gotten that help, shadow literally wouldn't exist. There is a difference between the inherent magic and fate laced themes of oracle prophesies and jewels connected to gods and some guy who got made in a lab who saw his friend get shot after he was lucky to even be created.

Edit:I also just realized something too. How shadow interacts in the series also speaks to this. Specifically the chaos emeralds.

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For how much you say you hate that mural you seem awfully wedded to that one interpretation of it.

 

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That's bad writing. A story doesn't hammer in a point that many times to just say "lol it cool wahtever". I expect better, even from this series.

I disagree particularly in the medium of video games where themes are not just communicated in writing but multiple forms of interactivity and story telling.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I can't tell you what to like but I often enjoy characters who's connections to the main character are small if not non existent but just happen to know em.

Then enjoy Rouge or Omega or the Chaotix or Silver, characters who actually have only a limited connection to Sonic, instead of trying to pretend a character created to be his doppelganger is one of them.

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

No it doesn't. Telling good stories result in good stories.

I am so tired of pointless tautologies masquerading as insight.

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I disagree particularly in the medium of video games where themes are not just communicated in writing but multiple forms of interactivity and story telling.

That there are more ways than one to communicate themes doesn't mean you get to ignore one of them. The cutscenes are still part of the story. They still communicate the themes and meaning of the game. They don't get to write shit and pretend it doesn't matter just because it's a video game.

[Shadowlax]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Then enjoy Rouge or Omega or the Chaotix or Silver, characters who actually have only a limited connection to Sonic, instead of trying to pretend a character created to be his doppelganger is one of them.

I'll enjoy shadow, who is. Which is why this argument is happening. Or arguments rather.

Again this is a post " Shadow has existed for two decades and worked totally fine and the missing connection in question is part of the reason a bunch of people like him" conversation. Time happened.

" He was made to be this "

Turned out to be a character who kinda doesn't give a crap about sonic and has no actual relation to him whatsoever. And people think that's dope.  Funny how that works

 

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I am so tired of pointless tautologies masquerading as insight.

I'm tired of folks not reading, but we all can't get what we want unfortunately.

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That there are more ways than one to communicate themes doesn't mean you get to ignore one of them. The cutscenes are still part of the story. They still communicate the themes and meaning of the game. They don't get to write shit and pretend it doesn't matter just because it's a video game.

No one is saying this. However, video games as a medium. Tends to combined story telling mediums that tell stories in ways that might not be the most standard , but engage its audience all the same. Video games are famous for this , in fact.

[Wraith]

They're not gonna do it and I really don't give a shit anyway so I'm not gonna keep this going. 

But since that argument got me thinking I'll actually lean into the topic's premise and talk about the other parts of Shadow's character I don't actually like, despite liking him a lot on the whole. 
 - The android subplot was just lame and shouldn't have been humored if it wasn't going to go anywhere. It's not hard to believe Shadow survived the fall when half the cast can make that trip just fine. 
- Shadow having a dead friend is fine and I even don't mind the military being apart of it all that much but I would rather her have gone naturally than get shot. Would have grounded the whole thing in something a bit easier for people to relate to and not been as jarring in a series where the characters regularly take bullets and explosions.
-Speaking of GUN, Shadow never should have joined GUN. I'm not sure how you'd come to the conclusion that that's where he would end up after everything. Even by the time of Shadow the Hedgehog where they represent good they are constantly overreaching and being a pain in the ass. They're not worth forgiving and should have been buried with prison island. Guy's a force for good but he's not a cop.
-SPEAKING of speaking of GUN, Since Shadow is a cop now, does he care that Rouge is a thief? Does he only give a shit about big things and not petty theft? This isn't a problem so much as just something I'm wondering about but we can use it to jump into
-Shadow and Rouge's relationship not being as fleshed out as it could be in general. I think Rouge picking him up like a stray and the two of them sticking together makes sense but making them both just cops feels like a misreading of what makes both of them cool. 
 

[Kuzu]

If we're going to talk about concepts about Shadow that we don't like;

• He leans a bit too hard on being a typical Shonen Antihero rival, without much whimsical moments to balance him out. Not even moments that take advantage of his overly serious demeanor, and it feels like writers are afraid of deviating from that. Even the Boom writers didn't use him much because they were too afraid of that, but as a result, it left the character with very little to work with. And now we're seeing that with how Sega are dictating how his character can be used. Just let the writers work jeez. 
• When he did show up before, he got excessive preferential treatment and while I'm not the type to complain about "Muh favorites", I do admit he tends to overshadow a significant portion of the cast because of how much he's built up as Sonic's undisputed equal. 

[thumbs13]

32 minutes ago, Wraith said:

-SPEAKING of speaking of GUN, Since Shadow is a cop now, does he care that Rouge is a thief? 
 

Does GUN care that rouge is a theif? Does anyone but Knuckles care?

But GUN isn't a police force. They're more the FBI/ Men in Black. If they were just cops, the goverment conspiracy thing wouldn't work.

[Meta77]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If we're going to talk about concepts about Shadow that we don't like;

• He leans a bit too hard on being a typical Shonen Antihero rival, without much whimsical moments to balance him out. Not even moments that take advantage of his overly serious demeanor, and it feels like writers are afraid of deviating from that. Even the Boom writers didn't use him much because they were too afraid of that, but as a result, it left the character with very little to work with. And now we're seeing that with how Sega are dictating how his character can be used. Just let the writers work jeez. 
• When he did show up before, he got excessive preferential treatment and while I'm not the type to complain about "Muh favorites", I do admit he tends to overshadow a significant portion of the cast because of how much he's built up as Sonic's undisputed equal. 

No idea whats going on in half this thread as i do not visit here like i used to these days but on your second point if anything you can base him around sort of like a dbz character. a good portion of sonics cast actually. Shadow IS vegeta. Still antihero but started bad and became somewhat good. Also like Vegeta he was meant to be killed off after his arc/game aka SA2 but fans liked them so much they kept them around and eventually overshadowed other characters.  So now a days its mostly sonic and shadow left to deal with the biggest threats with sonic taking center key for most any final boss these days with a quick whip out of the ol super sonic but lately final bosses just consist of sonic himself.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

No it doesn't. Telling good stories result in good stories.

How exactly do you tell a good story then?

[Kuzu]

8 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

No idea whats going on in half this thread as i do not visit here like i used to these days but on your second point if anything you can base him around sort of like a dbz character. a good portion of sonics cast actually. Shadow IS vegeta. Still antihero but started bad and became somewhat good. Also like Vegeta he was meant to be killed off after his arc/game aka SA2 but fans liked them so much they kept them around and eventually overshadowed other characters.  So now a days its mostly sonic and shadow left to deal with the biggest threats with sonic taking center key for most any final boss these days with a quick whip out of the ol super sonic but lately final bosses just consist of sonic himself.

It's not quite the same since  Shadow was always planned on coming back from the grave if interviews are any indication; they just did a poor job at actually properly connecting the events from his "death" to his revival. Vegeta actually was supposed to die, and Toriyama even came out and said that he created Frieza specifically to have an antagonist worse than Vegeta so that he can keep the latter around as part of the main cast. And god bless his soul, Vegeta has never gotten the preferential treatment that Shadow has gotten. He's never been the star of his own arc seperate from Goku the way Shadow has an entire arc completely divorced from Sonic. The difference is honestly in the details. 

[DabigRG]

I saw this thread was here for a while and since it's about Shadow, I elected to just ignore it. But since it's been some time and things have quieted, I guess I can give this a read now.

First off, not really? Like it is a sorta tacky but not all fanfiction concepts are outrageous. In fact, wasn't SA2 developed before that stuff really took off? I will concede that he does lack overt flaws, though he does have one or two vices. 

Moving to his suspicious similarities, the show inference is that he was modeled after the mural of Super Sonic per Gerald's extensive fascination with the Echidnas; the only reason he isn't gold is because of his Black Arms heritage. It is true that most series with a similar dynamic tend to have the two be related somehow as a justification, but this one seems to play around with the past influencing the future by having a prediction of the future already in place.

And the greater range of powers...yeah, they kinda wrote themselves into a corner. To his credit, a decent amount of his aesthetic were built around being both Dark Sonic and an artificial being by having most of his abilities be his with the exception of Chaos Spear as well as the Bounce Bracelet and Sonic Wind, respectively. Unfortunately, they really dialed his abilities up to make him stand out more for his game and that aspect of his infamous spin-off has been ingrained in almost everyone's mind. Heck, if you ask a certain someone, there's a chance they'll even circumvent the rules of his signature move and make his bustedness even more official. That the series main protagonist developed a reputation for being weak compared to many of his friends didn't help.

Comment in his amnesia arc and it's appeal to his prior mysteriousness is unnecessary.

All that to say, Shadow was a huge part of the franchise for good and for I'll.

[DabigRG]

On 4/17/2020 at 7:31 AM, StaticMania said:

When does he say that?

I don't remember him even saying that phrase outside the recaps...

I think he's referring to the final boss, where Shadow says he thinks Sonic might be the Ultimate Lifeform instead.

On 4/17/2020 at 7:36 AM, DryLagoon said:

• .. Funny enough as a Shadow fan, I'm not really fond of this. I think it's kind of hypocritical for him to use guns considering his backstory, and he doesn't really need to beyond marketing reasons when he has hedgehog and chaos powers.

You know, I never thought about that.

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•  

 

On 4/17/2020 at 8:31 AM, DryLagoon said:

That's what I'm saying though. You go into this post assuming everyone makes fun of fan characters. But to me mocking them would make me a hypocrite as I did the same thing at their age, laughably badly so in hindsight. I think it's a different way for people to express themselves, in the same way as listening to edgy music or band shirts or things around that age. There was a video recently describing it as "a person growing up but wanting their favorite thing from childhood to mature with them" and I do think that's part of it. Sure it's easy to laugh as an adult and go "pft? that's what you call mature?", but to some teens that is what they think of it as. Just look at all the rated T and Mature titles with over use of swearing and violence, and it's not really surprising they get that impression. It's only as they get older they learn that there are other parts to being an adult.

Sounds like Orchard.

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.. And the fan theory that he also studied the murals from past games, which is why Biolizard is a lizard (by the way it's scream is a warped version of Japanese Sonic and Shadow screaming), and Shadow looks like Super Sonic.

Really now?

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. The reason why SA2 feels complete is because it was. Shadow was supposed to end there, but his popularity kept him around. They also decided to go with a completely different writer for his game, which is why he doesn't seem the same or why things feel like they are being made up as they go along instead of being connected to SA2 beyond surface elements.

Pretty much.

That goes to show the results of one and done stories vs. things that are established/kept for the long haul.

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Edit: If you have some time to kill this video goes even more in depth than I do about SA2's story.

I think I'll add this to my watchlist as well.

 

On 4/17/2020 at 2:15 PM, DryLagoon said:

? I'm honestly wondering how much meddling that game had considering even the Team Dark intro was majorly changed, and that was a minor scene. Toning it down is one thing, but not even mentioning it is another. 

How so?

On 4/17/2020 at 2:26 PM, ComeAsYouAre said:

Silver and Blaze also suffer from the fact that Writers keep on writing them back simply due to popularity despite it not making sense

Knuckles too, his entire Character doesn't make any sense thanks to the writers not even bothering to explain why he leaves his island so often 

Silver and to an extent Blaze are pretty much spin-off regulars and when they do show up, it's usually because space-time a factor in the story.

Knuckles wouldn't be quite as much an issue if they properly charted his development.

On 4/17/2020 at 3:57 PM, DryLagoon said:

I think part of the issue is they tried to spin him off into his own game, but due to mixed reception left it at only that one. Whatever it was, it was bad enough they dropped any plans for other characters or a sequel to Shadow. (possible other spin offs included Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman besides Shadow)

I occasionally wonder how much we supposed to get in this series that got scrapped or at least cut short.

On 4/17/2020 at 3:57 PM, DryLagoon said:

I'm surprised they haven't tried the two story route again. I think it offers a good split without having too many. That way both Sonic and Shadow have something to do, and you can make the story different. Either the two sides of the same story like SA2, or two different ones. Not every game needs to, but it's worth considering trying again if they won't do spin offs anymore. I still think Forces would have benefitted from this as we could have one half trying to get 100% in Sonic's favor, and one side trying to get 100% (or rather 99%) in Eggman's favor. It could even act as the prequel to the story. Kind of like the Shadow story but not tacked on after.

That would've involved actually doing something with the villain teamups, which they should've.

[Meta77]

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

It's not quite the same since  Shadow was always planned on coming back from the grave if interviews are any indication; they just did a poor job at actually properly connecting the events from his "death" to his revival. Vegeta actually was supposed to die, and Toriyama even came out and said that he created Frieza specifically to have an antagonist worse than Vegeta so that he can keep the latter around as part of the main cast. And god bless his soul, Vegeta has never gotten the preferential treatment that Shadow has gotten. He's never been the star of his own arc seperate from Goku the way Shadow has an entire arc completely divorced from Sonic. The difference is honestly in the details. 

Well if this current arc is anything to go by they are making it seem like he is going to be the one to beat the current villian

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Well if this current arc is anything to go by they are making it seem like he is going to be the one to beat the current villian

I'll believe it when I see it. 

[Sean]

I've loosened up on a large number of my feelings about the Sonic series over the years, and that includes Shadow and everything that involved him in the 2000s (yes, even the aliens... It's silly but the entirety of ShTH is like some bad yet enjoyable cheesy action flick so I've learned to roll with it at this point). I think the biggest problem I continue to have with him is that it feels like the series hasn't tried to portray his abilities as balanced compared to Sonic's. Almost every player character has their advantages and disadvantages, such as Knuckles' lower jump height and Blaze's lower top speed. With Shadow though it never felt like they tried to do this (except for 06, which I'll get into shortly). To an extent I'm willing to let some of that slide due to most of his appearances having him be a deliberate clone of Sonic gameplay-wise - SA2, Heroes, and Forces for example - but I don't get the sense that he has any ability disadvantage compared to Sonic. The image I get from him is that he has all of Sonic's abilities plus magical chaos powers whose limits have been poorly defined. On top of that he gets even more super powerful when he takes his bracelets off. As a result he comes off as overpowered to me. I'm not going to get into whether or not the series' playable characters have had good balancing because I think that's a separate issue, but Shadow is one of the few instances where it seems like they never bothered, even in the context of a story.

The only time that Shadow felt really different from Sonic was 06, and I don't really know what to make of this. I think Shadow has the worst gameplay style in 06 by far, because his changes from Sonic (both abilities and level designs) don't feel good or purposeful at all. He's slower than Sonic because the game makes you use those shitty vehicles instead. He can mash the homing attack button to punch enemies. Yay? Even though Sonic can homing attack enemies without wasting time with kicks and punches. And his chaos abilities were weird and got me killed more often than not so I hardly used them. At least he was different from Sonic this time, but these changes weren't good, or fun, much like the rest of 06.

Another thing I don't like is how SA2 is literally the only game where they butt heads and constantly get under each others' skin. I never liked Sonic being super buddy-buddy with him and think the rival aspect needs to be played up more, not less. Sonic and Shadow seem like characters who would have totally different methods of solving a problem and this is what should put them at odds with each other, not to mention just having a plain petty rivalry as shown in SA2. The only instance of their rivalry I can recall being brought up is in 06's Crisis City when Sonic says "Well Shadow, looks like we have to work together" like he's reluctant about it, but it's never brought up beforehand in the game and it's just that one single line of dialogue.

Overall though I'm okay with Shadow and wouldn't mind seeing more of him to the extent that I want to see more characters show up in important roles. Hell, seeing as how I hate the classic/modern divide so much, I'd really like to see him in a classic-styled game and see what the devs can come up with for a Genesis look and gameplay style for him. Every other problem I can think of regarding Shadow is generally something that's shared among Sega's poor handling of its extended cast throughout the years so I don't think he's inherently bad or anything, at least not anymore once I stopped giving a shit about the "image" or "tone" of the franchise. Plus he was amazing in Archie, and I am looking forward to IDW finally doing something silly with him in the next arc.

[DryLagoon]

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I will concede that he does lack overt flaws, though he does have one or two vices. 

As usual I'll preface this by saying this is SA2 based. I'm not ignoring the rest of his appearances as I do think they have various issues, but I think some either forget or don't know all the details about his debut game and I like sharing about it. (not knowing is understandable as even for it me it took a lot of willingly going out of my way to find this information)

I'm not sure if you're thinking of the same ones as me, but going through the story again as well as his character themes, one flaw of Shadow I have noticed is using over confidence as a facade for insecurity. Just like Knuckles raps were used to somewhat convey what he was feeling during the stages, Shadow was the only other character to have vocals for his stage music. Due to these vocals being warped on purpose, the meaning is lost on many players. But a reoccurring theme in these pieces are focusing on the current objective repeatedly to drown out his self doubt and fears. (I only found out today that these lyrics were translated from Japanese and not written in English first, which explains some of the odd grammar errors) I will include links to the lyrics to read. I find reading it with this in mind really changes the perspective on Shadow. (White Jungle) (Final Chase) (For True Story - Final Sonic vs Shadow) (Supporting Me - Shadow vs Biolizard)
 

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Really now?

Yes, specifically the roar after Knuckles says the emerald speech. The original audio of them screaming you can find here.

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I think I'll add this to my watchlist as well.

I wonder if I should make a playlist at some point. There are some details I haven't seen elsewhere. I considered posting it in one of the threads, but didn't want to bump a dead one.

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How so?

I admit I was probably exaggerating a bit, but when the guy writing it goes "it was my least favorite project" and "stages were valued over the story", and every other project he did was praised, I can't help but think meddling had to be involved considering Sega's history of doing so.

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I occasionally wonder how much we supposed to get in this series that got scrapped or at least cut short.

I am very sad that all those ideas got scrapped. Spin offs are a good way to flesh out the other characters without them feeling like they are stealing the spotlight from Sonic in games named after him.

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That would've involved actually doing something with the villain teamups, which they should've.

Chaos 0 looks so good, I was so let down when I saw there was no boss. Not to mention the Shadow part in the main story going nowhere that I can recall.