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My problems with Shadow, in concept and execution

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2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Shadow's biggest problem nowadays, to me at least, is that fan opinion is still extremely split on how he should be handled and Sega, in their infinite wisdom, are trying to satisfy both parties, which means they are satisfying nobody. 

 

So you have two equally vocal contingent of fans with completely opposing views vying for attention; when Shadow is streamlined and his personality is exaggerated, fans like it because they feel it's more in line with what the series is (or currently is anyway) , while the other side feels this cheapens the character and misses the point of what made him popular and reduces him to a parody of himself. On the flipside, when Shadow is treated more seriously and with more gravitas, fans like it because they feel it adds a level of complexity to an otherwise simple narrative, but the other side feels this is pretentious and difficult to take seriously and drags attention away from the lighthearted whimsy of the series they enjoy. 

I think this is flawed thinking. You are taking it from the perspective of a tails or a knuckles where there are two people who very clearly like different versions of interpretations of those characters and sega making descions that they think will please both parties. The " take shadow down a peg" party doesn't like shadow and kind of largely doesn't matter. Shadow is an extremly popular character without their help, he makes sega  lot of money by being in games, merch toys ect. Its the reason they don't like him, if shadow was irrelevant they wouldn't care. The fact that he's popular in the face of their perspective is what draws ire. He's a prominent face even now. Sega's attempts to change him wasn't to please two different groups or fans of this character. It was to coerce people who didn't like him into doing so. Very simular with sega's attempts to change the 3d series in general to appeal to more people, both things didn't work. Because the people never really gave a shit and all it ended up doing was alienating fans of the character or in a larger sense 3d series of games.

These people are irrelevant to shadow as a character , and it seems like sega might finally have realized that and just moved on.

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

 

The simplest solution is to just give Shadow his own fucking series so people can have their cake and eat it too, but since that isn't going to happen any time soon, we're stuck with this. No I don't know how you fix this discrepancy. I lean more towards thinking Shadow is better used as a serious foil to the more jovial and upright heroic cast, and when used well, serves as a good juxtaposition. But I also understand that is not everyone's cup of tea and they would prefer to see him in a less dignified light to bring him on the level of everyone else and make him enjoyable.   

I mean they could just make a series of I dunno , more action oriented " serious " sonic games where characters go on adventures and shadow's frequently an important character in them. Or any other type of game, and then after a while if its succesful you just switch the names and everyone kinda knows what the deal is. ( though I dunno I think they could just get platinum to make a self serious but cheesy shadow character action game and it would do well )

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2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

By the time of Boom (which is noncanon to the games, but important for the purpose of this discussion) they just decided to make Shadow antagonistic to Sonic by default, with no apparent motivation; An outright malevolent figure who laughs at Sonic and derides him for... uh, having friends, like a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Fair enough, Boom's a separate continuity, but then this motiveless antagonism seems to have been adopted into the mainline games themselves, with even Ian Flynn saying Sega's mandated that he write Shadow this way.

I honestly don't see it. Like, he can be competitive and antagonistic, yeah, but I think the extent of it has been overstated and when it does happen it's not coming out of nowhere.

I mean what media have we even had since Boom where Shadow had a major role? Forces, where he and Sonic barely interact and when they do it's purely functional dialogue to move the plot along, TSR, which is ultimately just a big goofy racing spinoff where everyone's being competitive, and IDW, where he's got understandable reasons for his major clashes with Sonic. I'm sure I've talked about all this before, as Sonic Discourse always seems to be going in circles, but I really, genuinely don't see where this impression is coming from.

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16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I honestly don't see it. Like, he can be competitive and antagonistic, yeah, but I think the extent of it has been overstated and when it does happen it's not coming out of nowhere.

I mean what media have we even had since Boom where Shadow had a major role? Forces, where he and Sonic barely interact and when they do it's purely functional dialogue to move the plot along, TSR, which is ultimately just a big goofy racing spinoff where everyone's being competitive, and IDW, where he's got understandable reasons for his major clashes with Sonic. I'm sure I've talked about all this before, as Sonic Discourse always seems to be going in circles, but I really, genuinely don't see where this impression is coming from.

A lack of cohesion; Shadow's lack of a definable goal is exactly why people are confused, and things like Boom, TSR, and IDW only add to the confusion. There's no rhyme or reason for what he does, he just does...

He doesn't do a damn thing in Forces,  TSR is a dumb spin off, but it's still a dumb spin off with a story that it is trying to tell the audience no matter how simple it is. IDW is the most justified portrayal of his antagonist nature, but then it muddles the waters further with how he gets turned into a Zombot. 

The reason people feel that way is because there literally is no solid answer on what exactly is Shadow's current role and position is supposed to be. 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I think this is flawed thinking. You are taking it from the perspective of a tails or a knuckles where there are two people who very clearly like different versions of interpretations of those characters and sega making decisions that they think will please both parties. The " take shadow down a peg" party doesn't like shadow and kind of largely doesn't matter. Shadow is an extremely popular character without their help, he makes sega  lot of money by being in games, merch toys ect. Its the reason they don't like him, if shadow was irrelevant they wouldn't care. The fact that he's popular in the face of their perspective is what draws ire. He's a prominent face even now. Sega's attempts to change him wasn't to please two different groups or fans of this character. It was to coerce people who didn't like him into doing so. Very similar with sega's attempts to change the 3d series in general to appeal to more people, both things didn't work. Because the people never really gave a shit and all it ended up doing was alienating fans of the character or in a larger sense 3d series of games.

These people are irrelevant to shadow as a character , and it seems like sega might finally have realized that and just moved on.

This is a very disgenous view, but I understand where it is coming from. I'm not speaking about Shadow haters who just hate the character on principal People who don't like Shadow's story or character and feel he is detrimental to the series are no more valid than his legion of fans. Especially when for a few years, he was the focal point of the entire franchise. If you're somebody who genuinely felt his story was pretentious and ill fitting for the series, but constantly had to endure him being front and center, it is going to negatively affect your perception of the series. . There have been plenty of people who have explained their feelings and why they feel the way they do about Shadow, and those feelings shouldn't be invalidated just because they don't align with your opinion.

You're assuming that everyone who doesn't like Shadow doesn't have valid reasons for doing so; if a character is causing this much of a controversy that people are split whether he's fit for the series or not, then I think there might be something of a point of contention and I don't think one should be ignored over the other. 

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21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

IDW, where he's got understandable reasons for his major clashes with Sonic. I'm sure I've talked about all this before, as Sonic Discourse always seems to be going in circles, but I really, genuinely don't see where this impression is coming from.

I think in IDW specifically, it came from Ian wanting Shadow to be more cooperative and helpful in his original draft of the story, but being given a mandate by Sega to make him more harsh and antagonistic, specifically wanting him to focus hard on his rivalry with Sonic.

Considering how willing Shadow's been in previous games to help Sonic against greater threats - particularly in Sonic Adventure 2 - this is a strange direction to push the character. Rivalry or not, against a global crisis, Shadow usually buckles down and focuses more on the greater good. 

Telling Sonic that he "deserves" to get infected for showing Eggman mercy comes off as particularly coldhearted. On that note, being super homicidal toward Eggman also strikes me as being at odds with his original characterization. (Though it fits just fine with ShtH and Chronicles, so it's not like that's unprecedented, per se; I just felt those portrayals were strange and off-brand for the character too.)

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31 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

A lack of cohesion; Shadow's lack of a definable goal is exactly why people are confused, and things like Boom, TSR, and IDW only add to the confusion. There's no rhyme or reason for what he does, he just does...

He doesn't do a damn thing in Forces,  TSR is a dumb spin off, but it's still a dumb spin off with a story that it is trying to tell the audience no matter how simple it is. IDW is the most justified portrayal of his antagonist nature, but then it muddles the waters further with how he gets turned into a Zombot. 

The reason people feel that way is because there literally is no solid answer on what exactly is Shadow's current role and position is supposed to be. 

In the series. I think even with all the corporate meddling " powerful anti hero who saves the day in his own way" even after everything that's happened , I do believe its how he is seen internally. I think the only exception to this is sonic boom, and even before that got shut down, I think that is the direction they were going. Its Just that everything around that is muddled, he went from having a team to focusing on lone wolves. He went from being motivated by his dead friend to petty rivalry. But that core sentence is what I think they think he is , they just don't get its the details that matter with that sort of character.

31 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

This is a very disgenous view, but I understand where it is coming from. I'm not speaking about Shadow haters who just hate the character on principal People who don't like Shadow's story or character and feel he is detrimental to the series are no more valid than his legion of fans.

 

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Especially when for a few years, he was the focal point of the entire franchise. If you're somebody who genuinely felt his story was pretentious and ill fitting for the series, but constantly had to endure him being front and center, it is going to negatively affect your perception of the series. . There have been plenty of people who have explained their feelings and why they feel the way they do about Shadow, and those feelings shouldn't be invalidated just because they don't align with your opinion.

 

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You're assuming that everyone who doesn't like Shadow doesn't have valid reasons for doing so; if a character is causing this much of a controversy that people are split whether he's fit for the series or not, then I think there might be something of a point of contention and I don't think one should be ignored over the other. 

Here's the deal, I don't think anything you said actually matters. And I'm saying this in a respectful way.

This is as simple as I can put it. If shadow is super popular, and people like him. And sega likes that people like him and it makes them money. Who gives a shit what people who think he doesn't fit think. They already changed him to try and fit that way, no one liked it and it is still not effective they seem to have given up somewhat. So who cares.Their opinion is irrelevant. That's called being a reasonable person.

I like a bunch of things. Here's a thing I like naruto, here's a character I do not like sasuke. You know what I do when he gets focus , I don't like him and move on. Sometimes people like some shit you don't like , grow up who gives a shit. Yeah it sucks when character you don't like gets a lot of focus. You can go ahead and criticize them all you want, I do. But unless that character is offensive in some way that needs to be changed, no the company shouldn't listen to me and change popular character to suit me. Its not for me. I can fuck off

Their opinions don't matter. And I would say this about characters I don't like either. Heck I say this about sally a character who I'm glad is away, but if she comes back because some folks like her.My opinion doesn't matter, if she's pleasing a lot of people actually and I don't like her then... that's kinda it. You know how i solved that issue, I read sonic universe because that was more fitting to my taste. Maybe sega should just offer more shadow focused content sometimes so those people can shut up.

I'm not saying criticism doesn't matter, but there comes a point where your opinion on what the character should be ceases to matter

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29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I honestly don't see it. Like, he can be competitive and antagonistic, yeah, but I think the extent of it has been overstated and when it does happen it's not coming out of nowhere.

I mean what media have we even had since Boom where Shadow had a major role? Forces, where he and Sonic barely interact and when they do it's purely functional dialogue to move the plot along, TSR, which is ultimately just a big goofy racing spinoff where everyone's being competitive, and IDW, where he's got understandable reasons for his major clashes with Sonic. I'm sure I've talked about all this before, as Sonic Discourse always seems to be going in circles, but I really, genuinely don't see where this impression is coming from.

I still think the circumstances under which he got zombiefied were dumb, but the majority of his appearances in the book make sense, so it's not like they've turned him into a trainwreck of a character or anything.

I can only speak from my own perspective here but I've decided that it's less that he's OOC and more that I'm tired of this angle for him?  The situations where his edges are blunted in Archie and 06 feel like a healthy place for the character to be at and are just genuinely more fun to watch. It's similar to how we'd rather see Blaze and Silver act like dorks sometimes than come at everything with their arms crossed like they used to. If Shadow is going to appear more, that's great, but I'd rather see more of that side of him than this. The quality of character interactions in this series has genuinely got a lot better this decade, so I want Shadow to join in on that fun more.

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12 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Telling Sonic that he "deserves" to get infected for showing Eggman mercy comes off as really coldhearted. On that note, being super homicidal toward Eggman also strikes me as being at odds with his original characterization. (Though it fits just fine with ShtH and Chronicles, so it's not like that's unprecedented, per se; I just felt those portrayals were strange and off-brand for the character too.)

I actually think those things are in character. Shadow being like " wow you fucked up you caused an apocalypse because you wouldn't listen to reason , reap what you sow" is actually in character. Him being uncooperative and being and being that level of idiot because of a rivalry isn't. Shadow is the type of person to tell you exactly about yourself, he will also help you solve the problem because he cares. Sega cut off that last part.

And shadow due to his pragmatic nature wanting to just off the dictator who keeps...being a dictator. Is in character. I think the issue with that book is he never gets to explain himself, but shadow could probably give a pretty convincing a damning argument as to how he feels how he feels. He never does, he just kinda pushes sonic about and says " wut about " and not " hey remember the dictatory shit he does, lets talk about that" he doesn't counter any of sonic's arguments so it just comes off as him being angry rather than him having an informed opinion about the events.

The core of these things are in characters, its the details that are screwy

7 minutes ago, Windy and Ripply said:

I still think the circumstances under which he got zombiefied were dumb, but the majority of his appearances in the book are fine so I decided to leave it alone. 

I can only speak from my own perspective here but I've decided that it's less that he's OOC and more that I'm tired of this angle for him?  The situations where his edges are blunted in Archie and 06 feel like a healthy place for the character to be at and are just genuinely more fun to watch. It's similar to how we'd rather see Blaze and Silver act like dorks sometimes than come at everything with their arms crossed like they used to. If Shadow is going to appear more, that's great, but I'd rather see more of that side of him than this. 

I believe this to be an unrealistic expectation. Shadows's gonna exist in perpetuity and they are gonna regularly edge him up because kids like that shit and people like it.  Its just don't forget the hart, the heart along with the edge is why it works. They have been leaning for one thing more than the other

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30 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Here's the deal, I don't think anything you said actually matters. And I'm saying this in a respectful way.

This is as simple as I can put it. If shadow is super popular, and people like him. And sega likes that people like him and it makes them money. Who gives a shit what people who think he doesn't fit think. They already changed him to try and fit that way, no one liked it and it is still not effective they seem to have given up somewhat. So who cares.Their opinion is irrelevant. That's called being a reasonable person.

I like a bunch of things. Here's a thing I like naruto, here's a character I do not like sasuke. You know what I do when he gets focus , I don't like him and move on. Sometimes people like some shit you don't like , grow up who gives a shit. Yeah it sucks when character you don't like gets a lot of focus. You can go ahead and criticize them all you want, I do. But unless that character is offensive in some way that needs to be changed, no the company shouldn't listen to me and change popular character to suit me. Its not for me. I can fuck off

Their opinions don't matter. And I would say this about characters I don't like either. Heck I say this about sally a character who I'm glad is away, but if she comes back because some folks like her.My opinion doesn't matter, if she's pleasing a lot of people actually and I don't like her then... that's kinda it. You know how i solved that issue, I read sonic universe because that was more fitting to my taste. Maybe sega should just offer more shadow focused content sometimes so those people can shut up.

I'm not saying criticism doesn't matter, but there comes a point where your opinion on what the character should be ceases to matter

Telling half of your loyal fanbase to "fuck off" isn't exactly a good image for a company.

I'm not saying that you don't have a point because I agree to an extent, but I feel like the only reason you can say this is from an inherently selfish perspective. Your attitude basically amounts to "fuck you, I got mine".

This is why people can never come to any kind of agreement about these sorts of things, and it's why Shadow has such an identity crisis. Even if they did dial things back and made Shadow super serious and front and center again, all it's going to do is cause the opposition to shout just like they did before.

You say Sega should just "ignore" them, but if they did that to begin with, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It just becomes a shouting match between two factions for their preferred vision of the series until Sega caves to one side, which will cause the other side to shout louder until Sega swings things back to them.

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1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Telling half of your loyal fanbase to "fuck off" isn't exactly a good image for a company.

Fuck off, probably not. Letting them know they need to deal with it and they are the only ones who like something, is something I see devs, and companies do quite often.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

I'm not saying that you don't have a point because I agree to an extent, but I feel like the only reason you can say this is from an inherently selfish perspective. Your attitude basically amounts to "fuck you, I got mine".

No. You have yours, I have mine. I'm content with that, i'm not gonna ask you to comprise your thing for me, offer me the same courtesy.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

This is why people can never come to any kind of agreement about these sorts of things, and it's why Shadow has such an identity crisis. Even if they did dial things back and made Shadow super serious and front and center again, all it's going to do is cause the opposition to shout just like they did before.

That's why instead of just making one big product you make different things. If you make different things for different people, the people shouting opposition look silly.Those people should have less serious products for them, and other's should have more serious interpretations. Sonic shouldn't be one thing, but a few things.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

You say Sega should just "ignore" them, but if they did that to begin with, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

They should be ignored still

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

It just becomes a shouting match between two factions for their preferred vision of the series until Sega caves to one side, which will cause the other side to shout louder until Sega swings things back to them.

That's why you make different shit for different people. the classic fans if they keep getting manias aren't gonna say much because guess what? They got their thing. invest more in your multi million dollar global franchise with movies, comic books, and toys and maybe produce more video games for wider audiences.

This is a solvable problem

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The series is in no position to make multiple things right now. So for better or worse, we're stuck with only the main games for representation. Mania's future is up in the air.

That and Shadow and all of the characters are all grouped in Sonic's story as well in these multimedia products.

So yea, you're gonna have to learn to share.

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13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The series is in no position to make multiple things right now. So for better or worse, we're stuck with only the main games for representation. Mania's future is up in the air.

Actually I think it totally is.

It totally is , it literally just did it.

Just make different shit. And make sure its good. Make a more modern sonic game, make another more action oriented platfomer that's more adventurey. It can work fine. If the franchise can handle mania and forces at once, it can handle other things at once. Just do the friggin thing. Give people the money, manpower, talent and time to do the friggin things.

Lets stop making excuses for the incompetence of investors and execs. There litterally different franchises making different products with less. Megaman is legit making a new megaman, a megaman X and possibly a megaman battle network. And megaman as a thing is in a WAY worse position than sonic.

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That and Shadow and all of the characters are all grouped in Sonic's story as well in these multimedia products.

They can be grouped in other products.

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So yea, you're gonna have to learn to share.

I don't have to learn to share , this conversation isn't about me. This is about other people not being able to deal with shadow. They are gonna have to learn to deal, people like shadow for what he is it seems like they are reverting him back and he's still popular. Its them not me, espically if sega decides to go in on adventure nostalgia.

And they shouldn't have to share, just make different shit

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You're ignoring a LOT of context to just say "just do different shit". They've literally been doing "different shit" for years to varying degrees of success.

Mania is an extremely exceptional case and it took years before it came into fruition and the Movie literally had little to no input from Sega at all. 

 

 

But let's humor this; what are you defining as "different shit". They've been doing "different shit" for almost two decades as I mentioned.

Everything you said is so extremely vague and unconvincing as an actual option the series should have. 

What exactly is "different shit"? Are you saying Shadow should just get a spin off separate from the main series? What?

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7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

What exactly is "different shit"? Are you saying Shadow should just get a spin off separate from the main series? What?

What's different shit?

You know why mania is good. Its two things, it does not compromise itself it understands what its supposed to be and what made the things its based on great. Do that, but with other sections of the fanbase. Make a new boost like game, that is just that not boost and another thing, just boost make it the best it can be, understand what made the boost gameplay good and expand on that. Do not compromise. Maybe make an adventure inspired thing that understand the gameplay and characters people like and expand on that. Do not comprise mania didn't and its better for it.

Make different focused products for different groups , make them good make them quality. And it will solve every problem. Every once in a while you try something weird, let platinum do that shadow spin off or whatever. Make a tails mech battling game, something. But whatever they do, focus on what its supposed to be, and who's its supposed to be for and focus on that. Do not compromise. Focus. Every single sonic game in the past...decade + even the good ones have had this as an issue.

That's different shit

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I'll reiterate again that you need to stop invoking Mania, because the circumstances surrounding that game are the exception, not the rule. Additionally, a game like Mania is chump change to create than a full 3D game with full on voice acting, instrumentation and the like. They're not comparable at all. I only said its unlikely because after Boom, they might not be willing to make such a huge financial risk again.

 

But moving on; what would a Shadow spin off even focus on, as far as narrative and gameplay anyway. I do feel like they've milked his backstory for all that its worth by this point in time.

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14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'll reiterate again that you need to stop invoking Mania, because the circumstances surrounding that game are the exception, not the rule.

No its not , its litterally a thing they can just do. it is in play now, it did not remove itself from context. It is the rule or at least it can be. Mania as you said below does not cost as much as a full 3d game, they could litterally hire the same folks or people of similar talents to just... keep making them. That's legit what megaman is doing.

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Additionally, a game like Mania is chump change to create than a full 3D game with full on voice acting, instrumentation and the like. They're not comparable at all. I only said its unlikely because after Boom, they might not be willing to make such a huge financial risk again.

That's not really a reason, that's more so a failure on sega's part. If they can't realize the issue is their management rather than investing in sonic even though that investment is paying off in multiple other sectors. Sonic as video games is doomed and I don't really have much else to say. They will blame elements of sonic until there are just no more sonic games.

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But moving on; what would a Shadow spin off even focus on, as far as narrative and gameplay anyway. I do feel like they've milked his backstory for all that its worth by this point in time.

One, he could just fight new shit as far as narratives go and focus on him just going on adventures as more serious character in sonic land its pretty easy for him to have interesting interactions with that world in isolation. But also no they haven't. There's an entire gap in his backstory the black arms, canonically have been on the planet for 2000 years with ancient ruins and shit. Have him go investigate that shit, learn new things about himself gain new powers, figure out what the black arms really are outside of the context of what happened in his first game. You can use that recontextualize them and make them a bit cooler Heck he could be used to open a whole new section of space aliens for sonic outside of the wisps

gameplay wise um

this

and uh , this

Just make him dante a virgil , that's it.

Just make a character action game

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It doesn't matter if Sega's management is to blame; the end result is that they lost a ton of money in trying something like that.

They're nothing going to do it again unless there is an explicit reason to do so. I'm not saying its impossible, just highly unlikely at this moment in time.

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10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I lean more towards thinking Shadow is better used as a serious foil to the more jovial and upright heroic cast, and when used well, serves as a good juxtaposition.

Yeah, as long as Sega keeps going for that comedic feel, I think this is the best option. Somewhat similar to how master Splinter stands out in the 1987 Ninja Turtles series by being the one character who isn't a goofball.

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1 minute ago, batson said:

Yeah, as long as Sega keeps going for that comedic feel, I think this is the best option. Somewhat similar to how master Splinter stands out in the 1987 Ninja Turtles series by being the one character who isn't a goofball.

No. Not a comedic foil. I mean a legit serious foil who is used to actually carry narrative weight. I don't care much for most of his comedic traits personally. But that's generally because he's never been used well in a comedic light.

The series itself is already pretty lighthearted and whimsical, so having a character who is treated seriously adds more weight to it.

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1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

No. Not a comedic foil. I mean a legit serious foil who is used to actually carry narrative weight. I don't care much for most of his comedic traits personally. But that's generally because he's never been used well in a comedic light.

The series itself is already pretty lighthearted and whimsical, so having a character who is treated seriously adds more weight to it.

That's pretty much what I meant. I didn't mean that they should treat his serious nature in a comedic light (in other words as a character we should laugh at, but laugh at because he is overty serious, or what TV tropes calls "the unfunny" character). I meant that he could be a character who is laregly extempt from the comedy in general. That's why I compared him to master Spilnter from the classic TMNT cartoon. Splinter was presented as a genuinly wise and dignified character, and existed largely outside the comedy that marked the entire rest of the TMNT universe.

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I have no knowledge of the 1987 series, so forgive me. But yea, basically. I'm not saying Shadow should be completely devoid of humor, but leaning too hard into that will kind of destroy the character's image. I don't mind comedy at character's expense, but doing excessively can ruin their image and prevent the audience from ever taking them seriously (poor Knuckles...)

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4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I have no knowledge of the 1987 series, so forgive me. But yea, basically. I'm not saying Shadow should be completely devoid of humor, but leaning too hard into that will kind of destroy the character's image. I don't mind comedy at character's expense, but doing excessively can ruin their image and prevent the audience from ever taking them seriously (poor Knuckles...)

Right, I think Shadow can be humorous in a "comically serious" way. Like, we don't need him belting out puns or cheesy one-liners or anything, but I think the potential for comedy is definitely worth considering to help round him out a little.

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3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I have no knowledge of the 1987 series, so forgive me. But yea, basically. I'm not saying Shadow should be completely devoid of humor, but leaning too hard into that will kind of destroy the character's image. I don't mind comedy at character's expense, but doing excessively can ruin their image and prevent the audience from ever taking them seriously (poor Knuckles...)

I think the reason a lot of people liked him from the start was cause he was akin to vegeta. basically still brooding but a good anti hero who did not need to belt out jokes to be liked. but with the way the series is now with more comedy takes (true dat) i could one day see sega making him more goofy in a does something bad he thinks is helping only for it to backfire IF sega keeps the writers they have.

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8 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I think the reason a lot of people liked him from the start was cause he was akin to vegeta. basically still brooding but a good anti hero who did not need to belt out jokes to be liked. but with the way the series is now with more comedy takes (true dat) i could one day see sega making him more goofy in a does something bad he thinks is helping only for it to backfire IF sega keeps the writers they have.

I mean, to be fair, Vegeta when went from brooding villain to antihero to a dorky dad who sings songs about bingo. And honestly, he's great for it. I wouldn't have it any other way. His transition from feared space tyrant to doting family man is honestly one of the most charming parts of the series.

I feel like Shadow ostensibly has grown to care about his friends in the form of Team Dark, but we don't really get to see them palling around or goofing off in their downtime much. I'm not saying Shadow, Rouge, or Omega need to be as silly as the Chaotix or anything, but giving them some moments where they actually act like a group of friends could honestly humanize all three of them a great deal.

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There have been plenty of times where they have been portrayed as friends, 06 being the prime example. People just ignore it because 06 :V

There's nothing wrong with comedy at Shadow's expense, but it also kind of needs to fit the character and Shadow is canonically pretty dour. Not that he can't crack a joke or two, but he's a lot less liable to engage in silliness willingly.

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45 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I think the reason a lot of people liked him from the start was cause he was akin to vegeta. basically still brooding but a good anti hero who did not need to belt out jokes to be liked. but with the way the series is now with more comedy takes (true dat) i could one day see sega making him more goofy in a does something bad he thinks is helping only for it to backfire IF sega keeps the writers they have.

The issue with take is , what just happened in the comic proved that a bunch of people didn't really see him as vegeta and proved  alot of people do not like that take on the character, including and not limited to , the audience. The writer of the comic, the new writer of the comic book, multiple artists , ruby eclipse the community maneger, multiple other people who work at sega internal.

So no I don't think that would work

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

There have been plenty of times where they have been portrayed as friends, 06 being the prime example. People just ignore it because 06 :V

There's nothing wrong with comedy at Shadow's expense, but it also kind of needs to fit the character and Shadow is canonically pretty dour. Not that he can't crack a joke or two, but he's a lot less liable to engage in silliness willingly.

Shadow's an weird asshole who has very little context for the world around him and is will just clown people. There's a lot of comedy to mined there, but comedy really shouldn't be the focus? Like I think you could just have shadow ...be in character and do cool shit and it will work for people. Not everyone has to be a hehe haha kind of dude. Also sonic's comedy as of late isn't really that funny so why focus on it, who gives a shit about it. At this point its mask for quality issues.  A lot of issues of " where does shadow belong" is he and multilple other characters haven't done anything.

If you get them doing things, no one really questions where they belong. Its why along with characterization issues, issues have risen for him in the comic. He hasn't really...done anything.  Have him do shit, have other characters do shit

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