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Realism in Sonic


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53 minutes ago, Celestia said:

The aesthetic was absolutely different from the classics overall but I don't think it's totally crazy to think it was leaning in that direction even outside of WHZ looking like GH. I'm sure there's fans out there coming to it's defense this way (as one of five people on the planet who like that game, I'd like to believe that!), but I mostly see LW's resemblance to the Classics brought up by people annoyed by pandering or whatever.

I personally thought it was a reasonable art style for the series, with my only gripe being the lighting (specifically that There Isn't Any most of the time). Whenever the levels were entirely just floating planetoids it isn't all that exciting visually, but the more grounded levels or ones with more details were perfectly "Sonic" to me.

I can understand people just not being into how stuff was rendered though, and the games following it haven't improved much. I like it but it's not like I'd be upset by any means if they went back to the semirealism of 2008-2011.

It was "leaning" into it. And I'm less annoyed by the artstyle itself and more how people cite it's how Sonic is "supposed to look". I honestly don't give as much of a shit about the pandering as most people do. But Lost World is still the most stylized art style to date, and while I don't agree that it looks "out of place", it is heavy departure from what the series has done, even moreso than Sonic Adventure 2 imo. 

So I get kind of annoyed when people tell me that it's "Closer to the classics" but then turn around and say something like SA2 looks too gritty and realistic for the series. 

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20 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So I get kind of annoyed when people tell me that it's "Closer to the classics" but then turn around and say something like SA2 looks too gritty and realistic for the series. 

I'd like to know who is apparently telling you this considering about everyone hates SLW. I haven't seen it here. And even if they were, why is this bothering you? It's probably not even the same people criticizing the realistic art style since according to most people here there isn't anything in SLW worth comparing it favorably to.

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2 minutes ago, Sean said:

I'd like to know who is apparently telling you this considering about everyone hates SLW. I haven't seen it here. And even if they were, why is this bothering you? It's probably not even the same people criticizing the realistic style since almost nobody brings up SLW's style in a positive light.

I'm obviously not going to point out any names to protect the innocent, but it's usually the few people I encounter that don't see anything wrong with Lost World and then cite how it's superior than Sonic being realistic and generally pointing to the older games for that particular criticism. Like I said, it's not that I think Lost World itself is bad, or that people shouldn't like it, but that the older games are being discredited as a means of propping it up.

Its like how you get annoyed when people tell you that the Freedom Fighter shouldn't be in the games for arbitrary reasons like "they don't fit" or some other shit. And yea, it does bother me because I'm pretty much "ride or die" for the Adventure games at this point. 

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Honestly I think yours is the majority opinion around here. Even if there are people around talking about that it doesn't seem like it should be enough to bother anyone. Pretty much nobody, not even critics (unlike with Colors) really give SLW the time of day for better or worse.

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I'm not gonna be the type of guy who uses appeal to popularity as a means to support my idea, because like I said, I don't want to discredit anyone who actually does genuinely think Lost World is a good art direction for the series. And it's honestly, it is just a minor pet peeve of mine and not really a huge problem.

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I always HATED when SEGA tries going into a fairly more realistic art style for Sonic. And no, when I say realistic... that does not mean I am against stuff like fantasy/scifi style cities or locations loosely based on real life... I have no idea why I need to make that part clear? but enough people over-time don't seem to really understand what I mean when I say realism. Also yes I will outright say that throwing Sonic into a realistic style world to the point the character cast almost looks as if  somebody photo-shopped a cartoon character on-top of a real life photo... is a bloody terrible art choice for almost any cartoon style series, Sonic not excluded. I DO NOT CARE about the fact Sonic has done realistic style settings to various degrees before! even if it was something far back as the 90s, I still will say I did not like it even in that case. Something merely existing does not make it acceptable to me. Personally my ideal art style for 3D Sonic media would be something between Sonic Lost World or CD & Generations... and no! Sonic-Forces does not count.

BTW Star Light Zone is still super stylistic + fantasy enough, same can be said for Carnival Night Zone. Stuff like that is perfectly fine and is not included when I saying ugly realistic styles. Look no farther then Sonic-06 which can burn in hell, the locations or the humans themselves... it was all bad. Admittedly I did enjoy the Sonic Movie as it's own separate thing... but I NEVER want that nonsense for the main part of the franchise, EVER. On another note: I didn't like half of the locations in Sonic Unleashed either as a few didn't feel stylized enough to fit in with Sonic I say. Far as desirable human styles? I still believe they should go with a combo of Billy Hatcher & Unleashed style humans. Whatever just as long they don't look realistic or from a completely different style altogether.

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The Storybook series was great for contrast and they weren't realistic...

There's no realism in Sonic, there's just less stylized.

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34 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

 

I always HATED when SEGA tries going into a fairly more realistic art style for Sonic. And no, when I say realistic... that does not mean I am against stuff like fantasy/scifi style cities or locations loosely based on real life... I have no idea why I need to make that part clear? 

Because that’s exactly the part that’s being complained on every time this discussion comes up.

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On 4/19/2020 at 3:41 PM, BadBehavior said:

I wonder if the people who don't like realism would be fine if Sonic themes were chosen by mad libs.

Sonic went to the [Green] [Tube] in the [Sky] where he fights a [Red] [Demon] whose evil power is to [control robots], but tragedy strikes when [Tails has his period]. Then they went to [Candyland] and [A Casino] before defeating the [Red Fat] [Demon Scientist] and they all lived happily ever after.

Yes, not enough has been said about this extreme opposite route. And the one time they decide not to go “mad libs” with story direction, they put as little effort as possible into it, making the “mad libs” mode seem better by comparision to how stuffy the normal approach is. 

On 4/19/2020 at 3:47 PM, Kuzu said:

Looking at this topic makes me think the decision to split the human and anthro worlds wasn't just born out of their ass. None of us can really seem to agree on what's "acceptable" realism or not.

That said, I notice this trend for people to really exaggerate just how fantastical the classic games were and how Adventure 2 is such a departure from that and I'm like...so fucking confused by it. The above post kind of lays it out, but to go more into detail.

 

Ghz.png

The iconic green hill zone; aside from it's checkered blocks, nothing particularly strikes me as "fantastical" here. It's a green pasture that Sonic runs through and includes waterfalls and lakes. 

Marble.png

Marble Zone is mostly just an ancient ruin with a lava gimmick. Nothing really fantastical here. 

Springyard.png

Spring Yard is probably the first "fantastical" zone, and even then it's mostly rooted in a city-esc aesthetic with a pin ball gimmick. It's certainly stretching things, but nothing glaringly fantastical. 

Labyrinth.png

Labyrinth Zone, it's a fucking underground labyrinth; there aren't even loops or slopes here that are so synonymous with the series. Probably one of the most grounded levels in the entire series.

Starlight.png

As pointed out, it's a city level colored in Green.

Sonic1_ScrapBrainAct1.png

Scrap Brain, it's a Factory with the third Act being a Labyrinth zone reskin. 

 

All of Sonic 1's levels are pretty grounded and not really surreal. You wanna know fantastical, this fucking shit right here. 

320px-Special_World_LW.jpg

 

You're gonna tell me this level belongs in the same series as the ones above? Sonic's always had a grounded sense of level themes, just obviously exaggerated because it's still a fictional world, but it's always been way more grounded than say, Mario in terms of setting. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Lost World's biggest art criticism is that it feels like a Mario game than a Sonic one, because the latter has never had levels like in the picture above. 

 

I hate this meme that Classic Sonic is so much fantastical than Modern Sonic and how drastically different the two are when that's such a bullshit statement, but so many people take it as a fact just to further distance the 3D games from the 2D games, and it's such prevalent opinion that it has been accepted as a fact by virtually everyone. 

 

On 4/19/2020 at 4:11 PM, Tracker_TD said:

People that think Lost World's aesthetic is akin to the Classics need an eye test. It's purely surface level, and even then only really so far as Windy Hill; because that's basically just Green Hill anyway.

Hell, I think even Shadow has flashes of an aesthetic closer to what I identify as 'Sonic' than what Lost World generally attempted. Not that Lost World was devoid of elements like that itself - there's that one segment in the snowball level with the giant rollercoaster track and casino iconography, and I always found that to be a really cool section, moreso when Sonic Channel referenced it in their Christmas art with Sonic instead grinding down it. Same with Sea Bottom Segue's stage - it's not really detail-heavy, but the background's not too far removed from something like Aquarium Park. But even Shadow, which has Concrete Parking Lot Zone (Gun Fortress), at least has something like Casino Park, or even Prison Island with its fluorescent goo and random Burning Rangers reference thrown in there (the flame breathing plant is BR's first boss fight!).

Again, it’s in the execution. I do appreciate how Sonic Team references other properties of theirs as late as Generations.

On 4/19/2020 at 3:41 PM, BadBehavior said:

I wonder if the people who don't like realism would be fine if Sonic themes were chosen by mad libs.

Sonic went to the [Green] [Tube] in the [Sky] where he fights a [Red] [Demon] whose evil power is to [control robots], but tragedy strikes when [Tails has his period]. Then they went to [Candyland] and [A Casino] before defeating the [Red Fat] [Demon Scientist] and they all lived happily ever after.

Yes, not enough has been said about this extreme opposite route. And the one time they decide not to go “mad libs” with story direction, they put as little effort as possible into it, making the “mad libs” mode seem better by comparision to how stuffy the normal approach is. 

On 4/19/2020 at 3:47 PM, Kuzu said:

Looking at this topic makes me think the decision to split the human and anthro worlds wasn't just born out of their ass. None of us can really seem to agree on what's "acceptable" realism or not.

That said, I notice this trend for people to really exaggerate just how fantastical the classic games were and how Adventure 2 is such a departure from that and I'm like...so fucking confused by it. The above post kind of lays it out, but to go more into detail.

 

Ghz.png

The iconic green hill zone; aside from it's checkered blocks, nothing particularly strikes me as "fantastical" here. It's a green pasture that Sonic runs through and includes waterfalls and lakes. 

Marble.png

Marble Zone is mostly just an ancient ruin with a lava gimmick. Nothing really fantastical here. 

Springyard.png

Spring Yard is probably the first "fantastical" zone, and even then it's mostly rooted in a city-esc aesthetic with a pin ball gimmick. It's certainly stretching things, but nothing glaringly fantastical. 

Labyrinth.png

Labyrinth Zone, it's a fucking underground labyrinth; there aren't even loops or slopes here that are so synonymous with the series. Probably one of the most grounded levels in the entire series.

Starlight.png

As pointed out, it's a city level colored in Green.

Sonic1_ScrapBrainAct1.png

Scrap Brain, it's a Factory with the third Act being a Labyrinth zone reskin. 

 

All of Sonic 1's levels are pretty grounded and not really surreal. You wanna know fantastical, this fucking shit right here. 

320px-Special_World_LW.jpg

 

You're gonna tell me this level belongs in the same series as the ones above? Sonic's always had a grounded sense of level themes, just obviously exaggerated because it's still a fictional world, but it's always been way more grounded than say, Mario in terms of setting. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Lost World's biggest art criticism is that it feels like a Mario game than a Sonic one, because the latter has never had levels like in the picture above. 

 

I hate this meme that Classic Sonic is so much fantastical than Modern Sonic and how drastically different the two are when that's such a bullshit statement, but so many people take it as a fact just to further distance the 3D games from the 2D games, and it's such prevalent opinion that it has been accepted as a fact by virtually everyone. 

 

On 4/19/2020 at 4:11 PM, Tracker_TD said:

People that think Lost World's aesthetic is akin to the Classics need an eye test. It's purely surface level, and even then only really so far as Windy Hill; because that's basically just Green Hill anyway.

Hell, I think even Shadow has flashes of an aesthetic closer to what I identify as 'Sonic' than what Lost World generally attempted. Not that Lost World was devoid of elements like that itself - there's that one segment in the snowball level with the giant rollercoaster track and casino iconography, and I always found that to be a really cool section, moreso when Sonic Channel referenced it in their Christmas art with Sonic instead grinding down it. Same with Sea Bottom Segue's stage - it's not really detail-heavy, but the background's not too far removed from something like Aquarium Park. But even Shadow, which has Concrete Parking Lot Zone (Gun Fortress), at least has something like Casino Park, or even Prison Island with its fluorescent goo and random Burning Rangers reference thrown in there (the flame breathing plant is BR's first boss fight!).

Again, it’s in the execution. I do appreciate how Sonic Team references other properties of theirs as late as Generations.

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Doesn't need to be an either/or. The 1st level of the 1st game establishes that Sonic is a critter with the ability to teleport to different dimensions.

I think Sonic is one of those characters flexible to work in multiple different types of styles...

...Provided those styles are well executed. Imagine art styles like "Wind Waker" and "Twilight Princess" and "BOTW" for Sonic. We've seen successful versions of Toony Sonic, Manga Sonic, and mix-of-both Sonic.

 

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I elaborated on this in another thread but I just found a more concise way of putting it: Most Sonic games, 2D or 3D, aren't actually trying to portray realism but they are trying to portray a world that feels real despite it's absurdities through very detailed artwork. If Sonic wants to go lighter on the details in terms of raw rendering power then it needs to find other, smarter ways of portraying them. Zelda is the gold standard in this regard but I don't expect other games to be as perfect as those.
lostwoodsgif.gif

The rendering power of the switch is low, but an impressionist style is used to approximate detail with our brains filling things in the rest of the way. Lower quality textures don't have to be completely flat, bland looking ones. Smaller play areas can be disguised more cleverly than sky pills.

The Lost World type oversimplification doesn't work for a lot of people because of this but imo not all of the levels in the game were actually a lost cause in this regard. That and I think this is maybe the one Sonic game that's poorly represented by screenshots which puts it at a huge disadvantage compared to the rest of the series. 

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I think the realism in 06 was great honestly and would not mind it more if Sega actually knew how to commit to something. That said I liked the CGI realism. HAD the game looked and ran like that i could see sonic fitting in more in the 06 world. The opening scene and all cgi ones were great. Then its a huge slap in the face when you get the in game models that just look odd cause of textures and and such. Imagine 06 looking like the opening. Like the entire game had that level of detail or heck even unleashed and its opening styling though the humans were even more cartoony to me than sonic in that game.

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I think another reason Lost World doesn't sit well with people is that Sonic, Tails, and Eggman all still look exactly like they have since Unleashed. Whereas something like Wind Waker overhauls Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf's designs in a way that makes clear it's portraying the universe in a different art style, Lost World seemingly forces us to accept that the abstract and hyper-simplified Windy Hill, and Generations' much more grounded and detailed iteration of Green Hill, literally coexist exactly as they appear on-screen in their respective games.

 File:SonicLostWorld WiiU WindyHill.png

Sonic-Generations-Screenshots-8.jpg

It's as if Wind Waker just straight-up recycled Link's model and textures from Majora's Mask with no changes. It's weird, to say the least.

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To be fair it's not much of a stretch to buy Sonic standing somewhere like Windy Hill compared to say, plopping Adult Link from Ocarina of Time in Wind Waker as he was. Sonic's design is already fairly exaggerated and a lot of his new animations in Lost World are things you wouldn't expect to see in Unleashed's fairly stiff movement. 

They just, IMO, didn't take it far enough. Particularly in the cutscenes where everything is just as stiff as it was in the last few games. 

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On 4/20/2020 at 5:03 PM, UnknownByME said:

I think you forget Sonic 1 had locations like Starlight Zone and Scrap Brain Zone, besides, having realism doesn't mean going as far as 06 did.

I think it should be like Generations and the Adventure games, where fantastical locations like Pumpkin Hill and realistic locations like City Escape exist together

I tend to feel those locations still have some toe dipped in the surreal nature of the old games.

Let's take the OVA universe for example. It does have elements of the SA era games, it has anime humans, some more realistic backdrops and a relatively darker storyline. However it's all glued together in a very surreal core. The humans are anime-ish but still cartoony and anthro supporting characters do also exist besides just the main characters. The population is more diverse rather than contrasted by a handful of weird entities in an otherwise consistent normal human world. Also the scenery is more grounded but keeps a more surreal air to it, like Eggmanland/Robotropolis being this Scrap Brain like factory lair of Eggman's, which grounds him as a big entity of how this universe works.

There's still a feeling that the OVA universe, while having its own liberties, is still built for Sonic and Eggman and the like, not that it shoehorned them in as aliens like Sonic X practically lampshades.

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4 hours ago, Wraith said:

To be fair it's not much of a stretch to buy Sonic standing somewhere like Windy Hill compared to say, plopping Adult Link from Ocarina of Time in Wind Waker as he was. Sonic's design is already fairly exaggerated and a lot of his new animations in Lost World are things you wouldn't expect to see in Unleashed's fairly stiff movement. 

They just, IMO, didn't take it far enough. Particularly in the cutscenes where everything is just as stiff as it was in the last few games. 

Maybe that wasn't the best example. The point I'm trying to make is that if Sonic's design were modified in Lost World, say by making his proportions closer to Classic Sonic's or his Runners model, it would be easier accept some of Lost World's weirdness as a simple art style change. By leaving Sonic looking exactly the same though, it implies that stylistic differences between the detailed and mostly grounded levels seen in Unleashed/Colors/Generations and Lost Hex, with its flat colors, abstract land-forms, and random doughnut dimension all exist in-universe too, which is much harder to swallow.

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45 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I tend to feel those locations still have some toe dipped in the surreal nature of the old games.

Let's take the OVA universe for example. It does have elements of the SA era games, it has anime humans, some more realistic backdrops and a relatively darker storyline. However it's all glued together in a very surreal core. The humans are anime-ish but still cartoony and anthro supporting characters do also exist besides just the main characters. The population is more diverse rather than contrasted by a handful of weird entities in an otherwise consistent normal human world. Also the scenery is more grounded but keeps a more surreal air to it, like Eggmanland/Robotropolis being this Scrap Brain like factory lair of Eggman's, which grounds him as a big entity of how this universe works.

There's still a feeling that the OVA universe, while having its own liberties, is still built for Sonic and Eggman and the like, not that it shoehorned them in as aliens like Sonic X practically lampshades.

I mean, that's kind of the central premise of Sonic X, so of course they'd draw attention to it.

Its actually kind of how Eastern media views this versus how Western media does. Western media tends to make the anthropomorphic animals a natural part of the world, like Tiny Toons or Animaniacs.

Eastern media keeps "non-human' elements as "alien" as possible. Stuff like the Transformers Anime and other Eastern takes on western properties.

1 minute ago, Bowbowis said:

Maybe that wasn't the best example. The point I'm trying to make is that if Sonic's design were modified in Lost World, say by making his proportions closer to Classic Sonic's or his Runners model, it would be easier accept some of Lost World's weirdness as a simple art style change. By leaving Sonic looking exactly the same though it implies that stylistic differences between the detailed and mostly grounded levels seen in Unleashed/Colors/Generations and Lost Hex, with its flat colors, abstract land-forms, and random doughnut dimension all exist in-universe too, which is much harder to swallow.

They actually did so that lol; Sonic's spines are shorter than in Generations, and his legs are shorter as well, and his animations are even simpler. 

Sega knew modern Sonic kind of stood out, they just didn't go far enough with it as @Wraith said.

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5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, that's kind of the central premise of Sonic X, so of course they'd draw attention to it.

Its actually kind of how Eastern media views this versus how Western media does. Western media tends to make the anthropomorphic animals a natural part of the world, like Tiny Toons or Animaniacs.

Eastern media keeps "non-human' elements as "alien" as possible. Stuff like the Transformers Anime and other Eastern takes on western properties.

Again though, Sonic X and Transformers and the like established REASONS why the main cast felt so alien next to the supporting human world. Most of the time they WEREN'T from that world. The games don't even bother, for all intents it IS meant to be Sonic's orignal world, but with no explanation for this weird imbalance.

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5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, that's kind of the central premise of Sonic X, so of course they'd draw attention to it.

Its actually kind of how Eastern media views this versus how Western media does. Western media tends to make the anthropomorphic animals a natural part of the world, like Tiny Toons or Animaniacs.

Eastern media keeps "non-human' elements as "alien" as possible. Stuff like the Transformers Anime and other Eastern takes on western properties.

Yet ironically it's the original Japanese canon, where Sonic and other anthros live on Earth alongside humans, that offends western fans who insist the two can't inhabit the same world (except Eggman, who I guess just sprung out of the ground since there would no human civilization to birth him).

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8 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Yet ironically it's the original Japanese canon, where Sonic and other anthros live on Earth alongside humans, that offends western fans who insist the two can't inhabit the same world (except Eggman, who I guess just sprung out of the ground since there would no human civilization to birth him).

Again the main problem is that they fail to make both humans and anthros seemingly co exist any better than they did in Sonic X. It's a mostly anime human dominated world, with just about a dozen cartoon anthros placed in there who seemingly sprung out of the ground themselves. So where's the anthro civilisation that birthed them exactly?

Even Eggman doesn't exactly mesh with his own kind since until Unleashed none of them but his grandfather Gerald remotely resembled the same asthetic as him.

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3 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Yet ironically it's the original Japanese canon, where Sonic and other anthros live on Earth alongside humans, that offends western fans who insist the two can't inhabit the same world (except Eggman, who I guess just sprung out of the ground since there would no human civilization to birth him).

Wow there pal, don't you remember that humans and anthros live on different planets even in the japanese canon, and that that's the way it's "always" been?🤪

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The amount of anthros and real humans living together in Western animation shows, and this is what offends you guys...

 

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8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The amount of anthros and real humans living together in Western animation shows, and this is what offends you guys...

 

Well maybe if they depicted NO other anthros existing in the Looney Tunes universe besides the main dozen as this special group, and the likes of Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam were designed completely differently from them, there would be a point there. The standard aesthetic of Looney Tunes is not say, like Uncle Sam's design in Old Glory, it has a cohesive style by default, with an even balance of anthros and humans that mostly look like they are from the same world.

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Never had a problem with Sonic's aesthetic along with humans at all and I'm gonna leave it at that.

It's pretty telling that the series trying to "make sense" of this by splitting the world's only confused people even more...

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4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Again the main problem is that they fail to make both humans and anthros seemingly co exist any better than they did in Sonic X. It's a mostly anime human dominated world, with just about a dozen cartoon anthros placed in there. So where's the anthro civilisation that birthed them exactly?

In-universe? We presumably don't see many anthros because Sonic is an adventurer who likes to explore new and interesting (i.e. human dominated) places rather than sticking around the kind of anthro-dominated regions he grew up in.

Out of universe? The reason is probably two-fold. First, having mainly human NPCs makes Sonic and his friends stand out among the crowd and keeps the uniqueness of their designs from being diluted by having a bunch of NPCs with similar traits (basically the same reason Superheroes wear colorful costumes). Second it's fairly easy to model a few generic humans with a handful of hairstyles and outfits, then use them and some palate swaps to fill out the crowd, especially when you have some very distinct looking main characters (see point one) to draw the audience's eye and distract from the recycled models (it was even easier back in the days of SA1 where the graphics were too primitive to show many distinguishing facial features on humans to begin with). Sonic style anthros on the other hand, are designed to be very easy to identify from a distance, so in addition to requiring more models (since you'd want a decent number of species and presumably a few variations of each) it's also much more obvious that your world is populated by a bunch of clones.

Not to say that I'm opposed to seeing some more anthro NPCs, but I think that having the world populated mainly by humans with a handful of unique anthro civilians is probably the most practical way to go, especially in the games.

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