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Why are we convinced Infinite is gone for good?


Red Hot Jack

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13 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I mean you just said noone liked Big, yet he's still around. So I don't see why that can't happen to Infinite eventually. Not that I want him to stick around.

I mean back in the day , big wasn't really liked. But I do point out that he has a meme niche that he filled in. In a sea of action oriented heroes, he was some dude who just wanted to fish. And separated from being forced to play as him, he's wholesome. I don't think that's interesting, but he works as a meme.

Infinite has a harder hill to climb. I'm not saying he wont come back. But he most likely wont fill the meme role big has. Because he's an asshole, he's a weird asshole with very little in terms of identifiable motivation. That's harder to justify in terms of meme form.

Big's whole existance is " wholesome meme" , infinite is kind of just an asshole that's a much harder sell for people to come around on. Usually the characters people come around on like silver. Have like a lovable quality or just kind of really really cool

Infinite is an asshole who seemingly didn't care about putting his friends in danger and letting them die and is known for " I"M NOT WEAAAAAAAAAAAK " . Its not impossible, but its uphill

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I feel like Infinite's one of those characters who doesn't have much to do if the story isn't specifically about him. I dunno, I just can't see him popping up in the next Sonic game.

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It's pretty obvious that they left it ambiguous as a pulse check to see if people like him or not. The next Sonic game probably has nothing to do with what the last one was about but if enough noise is made about him I could see him start slipping into spinoffs again ala Zavok.

I don't think he'll even be barred from the comics forever as sega's barriers on those are completely arbitrary and change all the time. 

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4 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

The Phantom Ruby in Forces came from the Classic timeline. It's not a stretch to say that Modern timeline has its own Ruby still hidden somewhere.

If I were to bring Infinite back I'd have him go back to his mercenary ways. He still has the power to induce hallucinations (due to either still being bonded to remnants of the Classic PR or having the Modern version) but his constructs can no longer directly influence the physical world (due to only having fragments of the Ruby and/or not having Eggman's infrastructure to power it). Initially, Infinite is extremely upset about his diminished powers, which is only exacerbated by the heroes easily working around his illusions and trouncing him. However as time goes on he starts adapting to his reduced abilities, learning to appreciate them in a way he never did when he could simply create armies out of thin air. With each encounter he gets more creative with his tactics and adds more sadistic flourishes to further torment our heroes. Things like making Sonic experience the feeling of drowning, overwhelming Knuckles' senses with bright lights and loud sounds, shutting down Tails' senses outright, making Shadow attack Rouge by swapping appearances with her, or forcing Blaze to stand down without a fight because she can't be sure of her surroundings and what kind of collateral damage she might cause. Ultimately Infinite's mind games, gaslighting, and sadistic illusions allow him to become truly dangerous once more, possibly even more so than he was when he was a full blown reality warper.

Character development: It's not just for the good guys!

Huh. Not bad. Good even.

This is the most interesting and well elaborated suggestion I've seen.

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

I don't think he'll even be barred from the comics forever as sega's barriers on those are completely arbitrary and change all the time. 

Yeah, that is true as well.

Cream, Vanilla, Omega, Gemerl, Dr. Nega, Shade(might need to look this one up again), and in a weird case Chip were all case of being barred, delayed, or simply asked not to appear in the comics as well.

And I imagine the reason Infinite was the latter is because he was supposed to be a flashback or something.

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Yeah, Infinite is simply mandated not to be in the comics, he isn't just dead, he's not available, otherwise the flashback to Forces would have been fine.

Also, if Zavok can be brought back in literally every game, I don't see why Infinite can't as a minor villain. I would argue that Zavok is more like villain fodder, Infinite is not, but still, there is nothing really preventing him from returning.

The one thing... really, is, SoJ vs SoA, hey it's possible? Forces was a conflict of visions between America and Japan, it really depends on whether those divisions want him back, if one is fighting to have him, while the other (maybe SoA) wants to get rid of him for good.

Still, the Phantom Ruby originated in Mania. At this point I have no idea anymore...

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13 hours ago, Wraith said:

 

I don't think he'll even be barred from the comics forever as sega's barriers on those are completely arbitrary and change all the time. 

unless he's in a mephilies situation

 

1 hour ago, Jack at Home said:

 

Also, if Zavok can be brought back in literally every game, I don't see why Infinite can't as a minor villain.

No one really likes him and he doesn't fit their current vision of sonic. People hate the zeti , but they fit the direction so they are around. If they change direction, there could be a chance sure. But they could also just make a new guy with less baggage.

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2 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

Yeah, Infinite is simply mandated not to be in the comics, he isn't just dead, he's not available, otherwise the flashback to Forces would have been fine.

A flashback to Forces. A.

That was merely a suggestion, albeit a somewhat educated one, on my part. 

2 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

Also, if Zavok can be brought back in literally every game, I don't see why Infinite can't as a minor villain. I would argue that Zavok is more like villain fodder, Infinite is not, but still, there is nothing really preventing him from returning.

Villain fodder?

The funny thing is neither really should be(well unless they do go with the seal off route and just have Jackal Squad before the Phantom Ruby...somehow), but that's just sorta how Zavok has felt for the last few years until IDW.

2 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

The one thing... really, is, SoJ vs SoA, hey it's possible? Forces was a conflict of visions between America and Japan, it really depends on whether those divisions want him back, if one is fighting to have him, while the other (maybe SoA) wants to get

Still, the Phantom Ruby originated in Mania. At this point I have no idea anymore...

Wasn't it written by Japan though?

Anyway, the Phantom Ruby wasn't supposed to be in there--it was originally an engine thing called the Valtron.

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Infinite will probably show up in spin-offs and possibly future titles with a smaller role, similar to Zavok. I don't find Infinite to be a particularly interesting character. I do prefer Infinite over Zavok but that's not really saying much

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I don't know why everyone is wondering how they will sort out canon.

Think about Silver, who just appears in games with absolutely no reason or explanation despite being from a different time.

Think of Zavok. They had this whole story with Zavok in Lost World where he was the leader of the Deadly Six and lived on Lost Hex. He's not an easy ally of Eggman and is mostly manipulated by him and the whole central plot of the game is that he rebels against him. Then in Team Sonic Racing, he's just working with Eggman again as if nothing ever happened. I know TSR isn't a mainline game, but that's exactly the kind of thing they'd do with Infinite.

If Infinite does come back, he'll just be around, hanging about, in the most baffling way imaginable. They'll just pretend the Phantom Ruby doesn't exist. Or they might pull something ridiculous like Forces and make him an illusion or something similarly stupid.

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Zavok might not have been meant to be an ally of Eggman but he was obviously meant to be a recurring villain since he wasn't presented as Eggman's superior like Chaos or Eggman Nega and wasn't shown as more obviously monstrous like Black Doom or Erazor or Infinite.

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1 hour ago, Plasme said:

I don't know why everyone is wondering how they will sort out canon.

Think about Silver, who just appears in games with absolutely no reason or explanation despite being from a different time.

Think of Zavok. They had this whole story with Zavok in Lost World where he was the leader of the Deadly Six and lived on Lost Hex. He's not an easy ally of Eggman and is mostly manipulated by him and the whole central plot of the game is that he rebels against him. Then in Team Sonic Racing, he's just working with Eggman again as if nothing ever happened. I know TSR isn't a mainline game, but that's exactly the kind of thing they'd do with Infinite.

If Infinite does come back, he'll just be around, hanging about, in the most baffling way imaginable. They'll just pretend the Phantom Ruby doesn't exist. Or they might pull something ridiculous like Forces and make him an illusion or something similarly stupid.

Thing is Silver is a time traveler on arrival. How he doesn't really isn't important--be it time machine, Time Stone, Chronos Control, or Genesis Portal--just that he show up to indicate some time-space tomfoolery is going on and he's hear to help. His telekinesis is a bigger part of his character that sorta breaks how the others work, but seldom is he portrayed as too much for anything to handle and in fact, he's an easier character to use than Shadow or maybe even Blaze because he is very fallible.

Zavok is a rare recurring villain thanks to being a manageable genuis bruiser that is also meant to be taken fairly serious, but he hasn't done much to threaten or even antagonize the cast for much of his tenure. His problem is more on how they just don't seem to understand what they should do with him or how since most of the recent games have been spinoffs with few having a story. He's He had Lost World, Forces sorta kinda, Runners which was cancelled, and the comics--otherwise, he's just participating in the Olympics or go-karting because he caught doing a favor for Eggman.  It is worth noting TSR evidently had a subplot about him trying to redeem himself of his failures that was trimmed out anyway, but that story is the most baffling example of this. And yes, it does seem to primarily circle back to his connection to Eggman in various ways perhaps because that's where he's gotten the most to work with, but again, TSR didn't even touch on that.

Infinite is way more of a concern because, unlike those two, his very shtick is inherently kinda incongruous with the series and requires a serious overhaul to get him to reasonable stick around.

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1 hour ago, Almar said:

Zavok might not have been meant to be an ally of Eggman but he was obviously meant to be a recurring villain since he wasn't presented as Eggman's superior like Chaos or Eggman Nega and wasn't shown as more obviously monstrous like Black Doom or Erazor or Infinite.

This is exactly the reason. Same with Mephiles, Time Eater, Gerald Robotnik or Biolizard. The big heavies that outclass Eggman are one-time-only affairs, aside from maybe a small cameo in the future.

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The Deadly Six seem to fill in the role of the standard comical rival villain for Eggman, in how they don't like each other and will usually be working on their own or even against the other, but will sometimes work together if it befits their ambitions. It's just the execution of it is evidently limited and undeveloped.

Infinite seems to suffer the same issue. I can buy into him being like this impudent minion of Eggman, more out for his own agenda and being dangerous to even Eggman himself if he gets too ambitious or cocksure, but again Infinite isn't precisely well established in his role next to Eggman and when the time comes he's pretty much just cast aside like a standard unnecessary plot device.

I could buy into the aforementioned theory that they were 'testing the waters' for him with this ambiguous fate though, that depending on both the reception of both him and the darker turn for Eggman they may either have him killed offscreen or reveal that Eggman just went 'Give me that ruby, you dolt!' and sent him to a corner like the naughty boy he is.

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12 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

The Deadly Six seem to fill in the role of the standard comical rival villain for Eggman, in how they don't like each other and will usually be working on their own or even against the other, but will sometimes work together if it befits their ambitions. It's just the execution of it is evidently limited and undeveloped.

Infinite seems to suffer the same issue. I can buy into him being like this impudent minion of Eggman, more out for his own agenda and being dangerous to even Eggman himself if he gets too ambitious or cocksure, but again Infinite isn't precisely well established in his role next to Eggman and when the time comes he's pretty much just cast aside like a standard unnecessary plot device.

I could buy into the aforementioned theory that they were 'testing the waters' for him with this ambiguous fate though, that depending on both the reception of both him and the darker turn for Eggman they may either have him killed offscreen or reveal that Eggman just went 'Give me that ruby, you dolt!' and sent him to a corner like the naughty boy he is.

Is that really the case though? If we're going strictly by the games; the only time the Deadly Six were against Eggman was in Lost World. Any time afterward, Zavok is just serving under Eggman (Forces and TSR) and never ever allude to the fact that he should fucking hate his guts. That's not even an execution thing, it's straight up ignoring a plot thread. 

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Forces really doesn't count since it wasn't actually Zavok. And while it's a bit weird in TSR, it's ultimately just a racing spinoff; what story it has is just an excuse, and I wouldn't expect it to be the game to relitigate character relationships. Zavok's only working with Eggman so they have a full bad guy team and it's not really worth worrying about it beyond that; it'd be better to wait to go into detail about it in a game that can actually focus on it.

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Is that really the case though? If we're going strictly by the games; the only time the Deadly Six were against Eggman was in Lost World. Any time afterward, Zavok is just serving under Eggman (Forces and TSR) and never ever allude to the fact that he should fucking hate his guts. That's not even an execution thing, it's straight up ignoring a plot thread. 

Again, the game's manual naturally seems to imply that there indeed would've been some headbutting amongst the three that's barely if ever there in the game. Eggman just seemed to outsource to him on Dodonpa and Zavok answered the call with little indication as to what he gets out of it to tolerate working with the doctor. To say nothing of Metal Sonic not talking, much less having any initiative.

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Forces really doesn't count since it wasn't actually Zavok. And while it's a bit weird in TSR, it's ultimately just a racing spinoff; what story it has is just an excuse, and I wouldn't expect it to be the game to relitigate character relationships. Zavok's only working with Eggman so they have a full bad guy team and it's not really worth worrying about it beyond that; it'd be better to wait to go into detail about it in a game that can actually focus on it.

Even if he's not the real Zavok, Forces still chose to represent him as part of Eggman's team as well as TSR. They may be dumb racing spin offs, and it wasn't the real Zavok, but it doesn't exactly establish the D6 as their own villains as we thought was the case. 

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6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Even if he's not the real Zavok, Forces still chose to represent him as part of Eggman's team as well as TSR. They may be dumb racing spin offs, and it wasn't the real Zavok, but it doesn't exactly establish the D6 as their own villains as we thought was the case. 

Forces also puts Shadow and Chaos on Eggman's team despite them having even less reason to work with Eggman, but it again doesn't actually matter because it's not actually them. Forces doesn't set Zavok and Eggman up as rival villains, not because it contradicted their presumed relationship, but because it didn't comment on it at all because Zavok is not actually there.

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5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Forces also puts Shadow and Chaos on Eggman's team despite them having even less reason to work with Eggman, but it again doesn't actually matter because it's not actually them. Forces doesn't set Zavok and Eggman up as rival villains, not because it contradicted their presumed relationship, but because it didn't comment on it at all because Zavok is not actually there.

I'm speaking from a meta perspective; obviously I know it was done just for the sake of a marketing stunt, but it still means the status of the Deadly Six is nebulous as far as we know. We know Chaos and Shadow are fakes, but we know their statuses (Chaos is, presumably in the master emerald while the real Shadow shows up to help).

So its really up in the air just what theri intentions with Zavok and 6 are 

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13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm speaking from a meta perspective; obviously I know it was done just for the sake of a marketing stunt, but it still means the status of the Deadly Six is nebulous as far as we know. We know Chaos and Shadow are fakes, but we know their statuses (Chaos is, presumably in the master emerald while the real Shadow shows up to help).

So its really up in the air just what theri intentions with Zavok and 6 are 

The general intention and indeed likely part of the rationale for them sticking around is that they're just up on the Lost Hex and even once in a while, at least Zavok and Zazz make little trips down to the world because they're still angry and eager to defeat Sonic and the others.

The Team Eggman reveal post described him as doing just that and I think Runners had a storyline about them investigating things from his world like rings to aid them.

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On 4/27/2020 at 1:06 PM, Kuzu said:

Even if he's not the real Zavok, Forces still chose to represent him as part of Eggman's team as well as TSR. They may be dumb racing spin offs, and it wasn't the real Zavok, but it doesn't exactly establish the D6 as their own villains as we thought was the case. 

If the D6 were supposed to be their own villains then they were doomed from the start because literally the only reason they were able to pose a threat in Lost World was that they stole Eggman's toys. Without his machines they're just a bunch of brutes who don't have the powers, smarts, or numbers to do any serious harm. They're a bunch of Babylon Rogues tier antagonists with delusions of grandeur.

...Actually, that's not fair to the Babylon Rogues. At least Wave can make her own tech.

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Even discounting their technokinesis there's more than enough physical strength and superpowers between them for them to work just fine as antagonists. Can we at least stick to criticisms that are actually true instead of making up reasons to hate them?

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3 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

If the D6 were supposed to be their own villains then they were doomed from the start because literally the only reason they were able to pose a threat in Lost World was that they stole Eggman's toys. Without his machines they're just a bunch of brutes who don't have the powers, smarts, or numbers to do any serious harm. They're a bunch of Babylon Rogues tier antagonists with delusions of grandeur.

...Actually, that's not fair to the Babylon Rogues. At least Wave can make her own tech.

Taking Eggman's weapons gave them an army, but that's about it.  Controlling all machines alone would make them a threat, ignoring stuff like Zavok's size changing powers and whatever those energy blasts Zik does in his fights, there's enough weird stuff they do that would make them problematic to deal with in general. 

From a gameplay perspective, sure, they'd just be boss fights without machines to control, but that's about it. 

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26 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

If the D6 were supposed to be their own villains then they were doomed from the start because literally the only reason they were able to pose a threat in Lost World was that they stole Eggman's toys. Without his machines they're just a bunch of brutes who don't have the powers, smarts, or numbers to do any serious harm. They're a bunch of Babylon Rogues tier antagonists with delusions of grandeur.

...Actually, that's not fair to the Babylon Rogues. At least Wave can make her own tech.

 

18 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Even discounting their technokinesis there's more than enough physical strength and superpowers between them for them to work just fine as antagonists. Can we at least stick to criticisms that are actually true instead of making up reasons to hate them?

 

6 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Taking Eggman's weapons gave them an army, but that's about it.  Controlling all machines alone would make them a threat, ignoring stuff like Zavok's size changing powers and whatever those energy blasts Zik does in his fights, there's enough weird stuff they do that would make them problematic to deal with in general. 

From a gameplay perspective, sure, they'd just be boss fights without machines to control, but that's about it. 

They each have their own special power, fighting style, and/or approach that can be relied and even expanded on. There's also an entire collective satellite and culture of stuff they could dredge things up from. 

Now if we're getting into how to implement them into boss fights for various gameplay styles, thats another matter for potentially another time. 

 

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Even Eggman can be considered underpowered compared to the likes of Sonic and Shadow at this point. The Deadly Six being effective as villains depended entirely on how they used the tools they had, even if their only tool was being able to hijack Eggman's robots(it's clearly not.).

The game just doesn't focus on them at all after they give Eggman the left hook. Sonic and Tails spend more time getting in each-other's way. They're not effective protagonists because they're treated more like an excuse for the gang to get mad at one another. Once that's sorted out they get stomped on easily, proving that they were never really that much of an issue in the first place. 

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