What would you like to see in a Sonic Adventure remake?

[E-122-Psi]

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Redoing the hubs from scratch would be fine with me. Station Square is a city section in a platformer that takes no advantage of vertical level design or interactivity. Sonic should be swinging off poles and and jumping off of rooftops. There should be lots of people to meet and secrets to find. As it stands now it's more like a series of connected parking lots with the occasional interesting side room here and there. 

The missions being thrown out entirely and replaced with side missions that invite you to engage with the hub and NPCs would be a better fit imo.

Don't redo them necessarily, just EXPAND them. Properly stream each of the areas instead of making them loads of disconnected segments that break the character to a halt each time they load and then branch in new areas horizontally and vertically. Like you said not being able play around with the city scape further was kinda criminal.

It's probably why Mystic Ruins is the most fun field to roam around in, because it's areas are larger and allow the characters to more freely speed around mindlessly. The hidden emblems and Chao eggs also take advantage of their abilities a bit more. The exception was of course the forest, but more due to a lack of onscreen map in the original and some of the characters' slow pace (I found it shame Big was arguably the most insufferable to trek through it, you'd think they'd have added some sort of clever short cut for him given it's his home turf).

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

Don't redo them necessarily, just EXPAND them. Properly stream each of the areas instead of making them loads of disconnected segments that break the character to a halt each time they load and then branch in new areas horizontally and vertically. Like you said not being able play around with the city scape further was kinda criminal.

It's probably why Mystic Ruins is the most fun field to roam around in, because it's areas are larger and allow the characters to more freely speed around mindlessly. The hidden emblems and Chao eggs also take advantage of their abilities a bit more.

I'm iffy about that because you'd still be containing all the plot relevant areas to the same street, pretty much. Spreading things out a bit more and adding new areas all over the place makes more sense to me but if people want to retain that compact feeling that's fine too. 

I think if you want to have more places that take advantage of their abilities adding new abilities is kind of necessary though especially in Station Square. One idea I had was connecting the sewer passage where the player finds the light dash with the casino since you'd get some new platforming area to play around with instead of having to backtrack through the main street + Casinopolis has a lengthy sewer segment anyway. 

[E-122-Psi]

One possible idea is connecting a lot of the missions and item areas like the keys and emblems in places that better befit searching, like have the Twinkle Park or Ice Cap keys hidden in some new area which plays on each character's ability instead of in plain sight in a patch of grass.

I've seen one critic compare the early Sonic levels to 'skate parks' and I feel like that's what the Adventure Fields' structure should abide by ten fold. Just a big fun out open area to fiddle around with the characters' abilities.

[Diogenes]

30 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I didn't mind the random spawn points in the adventure games but they caused too many issues. Set spawn points for the emeralds that the player can approach in any order would be a good compromise between linearity and openness. The player can replay the level to find the fastest route to grab all 3 without slowing down in the same way that I go out of my way to get as many chaos emeralds as early as possible in Mania.  

I'd worry about this making most of the level irrelevant on repeat playthroughs. In a linear level all paths eventually lead to the goal so there's no "wrong" way to go; you might take a different path in another run due to a missed jump or trying to get different powerups or just for variety's sake, and you'll still finish the level regardless. But in a nonlinear treasure hunt level, once you know where the shards are and have a pretty decent idea of the "right" way to get to them, there's not much reason to go anywhere else. Personal preference would still be a factor, but I think it'd be pretty hard to incentivize not just beelining from one to the next.

2 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

One possible idea is connecting a lot of the missions and item areas like the keys and emblems in places that better befit searching, like have the Twinkle Park or Ice Cap keys hidden in some new area which plays on each character's ability instead of in plain sight in a patch of grass.

I'm not sure they should go too heavy on hiding things that are necessary to progress. I've already seen people missing the keys in the original game and running around not knowing what to do, even given the little introductory cutscenes and them not being terribly well hidden. If they're less "hidden" and more well-signposted mini-levels I think it could work though.

[E-122-Psi]

I think depends on how easy to find they are from the character's gameplay perspective. Like if Tails or Knuckles were able to reach up the top of buildings, high up locations would be pretty obvious for them to find, just you'd need to know their abilities to do so.

I think this is a key thing about Sonic. Being a bit too easy wasn't SA1's big problem. In reality the early Sonic games tended to be pretty forgiving, just they tended to still do so in a way that encouraged mastering the controls and taking advantage of the area around them. Again the problem is that sometimes SA1's method of making the player trek through the fields and levels doesn't really take full advantage of character and level design. The fields especially tend to just encourage standard walking through cramped corridors.

This is where the sometimes dumbed down difficulty is an issue in SA1. Tails' levels in particular just either encourage cheesing or playing the same as Sonic, not using Tails' abilities in a unique way to find fun short cuts or areas or anything, with the Adventure Fields not really compensating. Knuckles' emeralds being out open and less obtuse than SA2's isn't a bad thing either, but in the first level you can sometimes find them all without even learning to glide or climb.

[Wraith]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'd worry about this making most of the level irrelevant on repeat playthroughs. In a linear level all paths eventually lead to the goal so there's no "wrong" way to go; you might take a different path in another run due to a missed jump or trying to get different powerups or just for variety's sake, and you'll still finish the level regardless. But in a nonlinear treasure hunt level, once you know where the shards are and have a pretty decent idea of the "right" way to get to them, there's not much reason to go anywhere else. Personal preference would still be a factor, but I think it'd be pretty hard to incentivize not just beelining from one to the next.

There can also be extra goodies hidden in the levels that aren't emeralds, but those would be a one time grab. I wouldn't want the player to feel obligated to sweep the whole level every time they jump in or anything like that. In terms of trying to maximize the the terrain in that score attack space that Sonic inhabits I don't have an easy answer.

I think it's important to remember that the appeal of a 3D platformer is a little different than a 2D one. Space, choice and freedom for the sake of it is often appreciate even if you don't come out of it with the tightest design. I don't see how this is all that much different then when you "crack" the optimal route in, say, a Mario 64 level or even just find a path you like to take. Even if "optimal routes" exists most players won't discover them and will play at their own leisure.

Basically: I'm not sure if a whole lot could be done about it. Some players are gonna experiment and mess with things but others just won't.

[E-122-Psi]

I think keeping a same location emerald route for Knuckles each level would only further exacerbate the lack of challenge. After memorising the locations from scratch, it would just be a smaller version of Sonic's levels but with mandated checkpoints.

On the other hand, a clever idea might be to have different locations, but have some sort of consistent 'route' for them, one close by Knuckles' starting point, the other some midway in, and the other much farther into the area. Basically groups of different 'easy', 'medium' and 'difficult' emeralds chosen from each time, though while still having the option to trek and collect them at any pace, compared to say SA2's enforced linearity through the gimped radar system which didn't end up that fun at all.

[Volcan Pacaya]

On 4/28/2020 at 12:14 AM, Silvereyes said:

Ditch Tails' gimmick of having to beat an AI partner to the finish, maybe except for his final level against Eggman.

So, scrap Tails' character arc or just divorce it from the gameplay?

[E-122-Psi]

If anything I think Tails' gameplay would be the most difficult to refine without changing altogether, because it's pretty much a one note gimmick.

Even Big's platform/fishing hybrid I think could be fine tuned to be more deep and enjoyable without feeling like a different game, but Tails' pretty much revolves around cheesing Sonic's levels. The best I can think of is making him play a bigger chunk of the levels, and maybe replacing some of the boost rings with developed short cuts and alternate paths. 

Perhaps that's why his last level seemed more elaborate than the rest since his opponent being able to fly like him meant they could stage a more unique race course, even there though, it felt more like a 'spam A' fest.

The best I can think of to compensate is to give Tails the lion's share of whatever new minigames and Adventure Field roaming missions they could potentially offer, which would at least make better deeper use of his abilities.

[Kuzu]

I think of all of the characters in SA1, Tails is the one in need of the largest overhaul. 

[E-122-Psi]

It's kind of an opposite to Big really. Big's premise can be made good, but it would require at least shrewd changes to his actual mechanics, at least one good attack move and somewhat expanded level design for example.

Tails' actual mechanics are okay besides being OP, but the premise is pretty paper thin. You wouldn't just need to expand his levels but make some key changes so they were deeper and more intuitive.

I suppose adding more vertical shortcuts and exploits would be in tune with SA1's semi loyalty to the original games though. I do wonder if that was in fact the intention before the game was rushed to the shelves. Maybe make more proper pathways in place of just boost rings, the latter of which could be placed in more elaborate sections to test the player's skill (eg. placing them over bottomless pit sections).

 

Bosses are another thing I think needs refinement in SA1. They're kind of shifted into two different structures most of the time. One is the very routine driven one where you dodge their attack pattern and wait for the opening with no way of making them go any faster, and the other are basically 'sitting duck' ones like the E-Series, characters and Zero that you can pretty much just spam attacks on.

I feel like most of them should have a better balance similar to the old games, where there is an attack pattern and opening structure which is more advisable, but where skilled players can still speed through them if they know what they're doing. Like maybe let the player get in hits on Chaos 4 when his fin bobs in and out the water, but keep the speed hard to follow and have Chaos attack you from one direction so you can't get too reckless. Meanwhile keep Zero mostly the same but give him SOME sort of refresh time so he can at least start attacking before you can knock him down again.  Character and E-Series fights should also have more aggressive AI that can attack and evade faster.

The Eggman bosses already sort of have this sort of exploit where you can get several hits if you're fast enough, but make it more deliberate and maybe give him more health points to make it more of a fight like his 2D bosses.

Even Big's fight with Chaos 6 could be more fun if both the fishing target was easier and Chaos actually played like a more elaborate reel in afterwards. Imagine trying to reel in a fish where the WATER was backing and struggling it away from you.

[expansivelovestories]

I am remembering vaguely an interview perhaps in 2016 or at the latest 2017 in which Iizuka-san responds to a question about "Adventure 3" as a concept, saying basically that it wouldn't have that name. 

Maybe the primary anniversary game really could be, after so many speed-based games, a dynamic, creative, maybe puzzle-centric game that would take place in either a fairly similar or exactly the same world as the Adventures!   

[Big-C]

Probably not. I’ve grown quite pessimistic towards Sonic despite still being a fan. I can’t trust current Sonic Team to be competent enough to make an Adventure remake. 

[Plasme]

On 5/2/2020 at 5:13 PM, Kuzu said:

I think of all of the characters in SA1, Tails is the one in need of the largest overhaul. 

You aren't counting Big I assume, because he's got by far the worst gameplay.

And while Tails' levels are very unbalanced, I still think they are more fun than Amy (especially) and Knuckles. 

[Ramcgath]

Well for starters I think it should include both games like crash and Spyro did I mean crash did it and now we finally have a follow up to the original 3 games and now there’s rumors for a Spyro 4 so why not consider doing the same for sonic adventure if a strategy works why not use what I would like to see in the games upgraded graphics and glitches and stuff fixed and maybe by maybe in year or 2 if things go well make sonic adventure 3

[EmTiven01]

I would like to see a remake that's essentially an entirely new game just like the remakes of Final Fantasy VII and Resident Evil 2. Because let's face it, the game is pretty dated in some areas. Probably the most notable one being character animations:

Not to mention I'd like to see the lore being explored more.

[Big-C]

The biggest and most important thing about this possible Adventure remake for me is that I’d want anyone but Sonic Team making it. Developers like Vicarious Visions and Toys For Bob, the ones responsible for the Crash Bandicoot remastered trilogy and fourth sequel are some I can come up with off the top of my head.

[E-122-Psi]

13 hours ago, Big-C said:

The biggest and most important thing about this possible Adventure remake for me is that I’d want anyone but Sonic Team making it. Developers like Vicarious Visions and Toys For Bob, the ones responsible for the Crash Bandicoot remastered trilogy and fourth sequel are some I can come up with off the top of my head.

I'm not sure about trusting Toys For Bob, they're not horrible developers but they insist on branding any IP with their own very distinct imagery and style, even in nostalgia based games or REMAKES. Their work doesn't blend with anyone else's and they don't really aim for authenticity (which leads me to question why they keep taking on works that make such an aim in the first place). An original Sonic spin off game made by them maybe has potential (especially in this era where people feel Sonic has gotten a bit too homogenised and bland), but I want a Sonic Adventure remake to remain recognisable.

Kinda ironically I feel like TFB are constantly trying to "Sonic Adventure" one of these IPs, trying to be responsible for some big overhaul of a series so they can claim some significant credit for its image. Sonic Adventure itself doesn't really need to do that a second time round.

[Madalass]

Totally rewritten script. I think despite the aged voice acting of the original, the script is the game's biggest issue in terms of taking it seriously.

Naturally, better execution. But i think that would be a-given. Better timing[editing, i guess?], more realistic dialogue pacing in cutscenes, better animation, more contextually appropriate screenplay instead of static poses in static places doing static things, those kinds of things.

Gameplay should stay mostly the same, but the hub worlds could use some work. I don't expect anything MASSIVE, but i do think that there could be a bit more in the way of actual explorable content instead of some puzzles hiding things in an otherwise small world. It should be based on going places, not just weird, cryptic puzzles. I'm not saying a fully open world is needed, just one that promotes checking around places instead of just Go X place, do Z thing, bring Y there. Angel Island/Mystic Ruins is pretty good for that, i just think the other hubs, especially Station Square, deserve a bit more love.

On the note of hubs, just make it less confusing, give more guidance on where you need to be and when [maybe within cutscenes], remove the train voice when you don't need to use it, allow us to access levels whenever in it, give us access to missions... the hub world should be more than just a means to get to whatever level you need to be at within the story. Why should i have to use menus for other things when there's already a hub world there?

Otherwise, i just want the controls to be refined. Perhaps the Mission system could be refined into something more SA2-esque, as opposed to the weird massive Missions screen in SA1 as well as the 3 different 'difficulties' of a level.

 

Better menus. SA1's menu system feels way too bland, it's literally just lists upon lists, not to mention some slightly confusing things like Missions being separate from the regular stage select?

Maybe some slight extra content, within something like the Chao garden? If we get a dual-Adventure remake package, then it'd make sense to have Chao-based content like animals and drives and the way they interact be the same across both games so you can grow Chao from either one. Plus just some of the neat, Quality-of-life stuff in SA2 would be neat. It feels like its menu has a purpose, it has neat features, whereas SA1 just kind of exists for the Play and Options button.

Basically, i wanna see a dual-remake where the games are the same except for the level format, story, story layout, etc etc. As well as the actual gameplay mechanics. The levels are alright as is, and don't need to be reshaped around SA2's speed or momentum or anything. If the Chao garden is the same, QoL is the same, menu system is the same- basically i wanna see the Spiderman [PS4] remastered treatment. It's still Miles Morales [the game in particular] but you get a full port of the story, world, and all the important mechanics that mattered to the original game.

That last point is a bit of a pipedream, especially the whole concept of remaking BOTH, but if they did, that's how i'd wanna see it.

[E-122-Psi]

8 hours ago, madalass said:

Totally rewritten script. I think despite the aged voice acting of the original, the script is the game's biggest issue in terms of taking it seriously.

I think a lot of that could be fixed by just following the Japanese script more loyally, which wasn't nearly as cheesy and awkward (though it was more repetitive since it was mostly only the English script that added variations for each character's campaign).

[Madalass]

23 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think a lot of that could be fixed by just following the Japanese script more loyally, which wasn't nearly as cheesy and awkward (though it was more repetitive since it was mostly only the English script that added variations for each character's campaign).

I don't think it's a matter of following it loyally- i'd like to believe the SPIRIT of what they're saying is pretty on the money, it's just that it wasn't really adapted in a way that flowed well in English, at least not to me.
I just think it was a cheap, and probably rushed, localization- it was likely either pretty close to a literal translation for the sake of time-saving, or had some kind of input from people who didn't really understand how the English language flows.

That, combined with the infancy of cinematics in video games, seems to have led to some issues with the game's cutscenes, whether it be the script, or the voice acting. After all, what professional actor was gonna voice act for a video game? What kind of Video game company HAD that kind of budget, at that point? They probably considered it an unnecessary expense and kept the cost of it down thinking no one would care- splurging on writers and actors that match up to today's standards likely would have exceeded the costs of creating the game itself, at that point. Sure it'd be to its benefit, but what executive was gonna say 'yeah, maybe we SHOULD spend an extra 2x the current budget on voice actors and translators alone'?

Though, i ramble on like it's particularly terrible- for the time it was totally adequate and 90% of other video games were in the same boat, with mediocre, up-tight direction and generally cheesy writing. But naturally, if it were to be adapted today, it'd probably need a total rewrite.

 

Plus, i can't speak on the quality of the Japanese script, as i dunno Japanese. But i do know Japanese when translated literally is incredibly awkward and just does not work for English. So it's possible that's why the English version ended up with a worse script. It was likely pretty close to literal, but not totally. Obviously they fixed any glaring issues but nothing really flows quite right, so that'd probably be about it. Fix terminology, fix vocabulary, just make the WORDAGE work in English, but cleeeaaarly not much else.

[KnuxDLX]

 

[NintendoSoul]

The ability to switch playable characters in the hub worlds to continue their stories instead of selecting from the main menu. From there, I think it would be really cool to take a page out of DMC 5 and have multiple parts in the story where protagonists who share a level can race each other while being controlled by players online. 

[Johnny Boy]

Redesign the human npcs to look like the humans in unleashed.

[E-122-Psi]

7 hours ago, Johnny Boy said:

Redesign the human npcs to look like the humans in unleashed.

I think they possibly give the humans a subtle redesign. I dunno. That was just a weird direction I'm not sure whether to change or not.

Concerning the previous discussion of dialogue though, I don't know whether this has been brought up, but I'd love some of the unused quotes and banter to be revived. Some of it was actually adapted into Sonic X's version and it gave a bit more intensity to the plot. I loved how Sonic and Eggman's final face off was meant to be WAY more bitter and personal, they were just DONE with each other's crap:

The fact the Japanese Sonic X expectedly has more enthusiastic direction than the original game also shows the potential for it's story to be more dynamic and professional while barely changing much.