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Who is your least favorite Sonic character?

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We're all mature adults here, or at least above the age of 11 I think, so it should be possible to have a civil and calm discussion even about a topic as controversial as this. As there is currently another active topic where we discuss our favorite characters, let's discuss the opposite here.

Personally, the character that just irks me more than any other is Chip. The character is supposed to be cute, but to me he just fails at it in all regards. First there is his design with that inredibly wide mouth. I find him more ugly than cute. But above all there is his (english) voice, which I just can't stand. It's standard to have cute kid characters voiced by women, but for some reason with Chip they instead went with a man doing the voice. And oh boy, it just doesn't work for me. He doesn't sound cute, just strained and irritating.

For a similar character done better, you don't have to look any further than Charmy Bee, who has an appealing face and a lovably squeaky voice.

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Guess this is as good a time as any to do a Why Zeena Zucked write-up

  • Scantly one-dimensional archetype
  • Stereotypical bordering on offensive personality
  • Inconsistent character bio
  • Adds little to the band roster
  • Undefined powerset
  • Nothing to do in the story

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Locke is the absolute worst.

Honestly while I'm not a huge fan of Shadow I don't hate him but I still think he may be shouldn't have been brought back because the more he appears the least interesting he is.

Really I can't think of any main game characters I really hate all that much. There are characters that I think are ok but don't see why they are really there like Cream. She's cute sure and Cheese is broken but I don't really think I miss her in the games she doesn't appear in. 

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Yeah, no, Geoffery. Ignoring the whole age difference with Sally thing, his biggest contributions were having a secret service team of b-listers and doing whatever King Max (another contender for the worst) wants. Even Ian couldn't save him, he's just that low.

King Max and Locke have the same problem of being awful, awful people but the narrative bends over backwards to tell you they're right. It's really obnoxious.

Most game characters are too inoffensive to care about hating, honestly.

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3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Guess this is as good a time as any to do a Why Zeena Zucked write-up

  • Scantly one-dimensional archetype
  • Stereotypical bordering on offensive personality
  • Inconsistent character bio
  • Adds little to the band roster
  • Undefined powerset
  • Nothing to do in the story

Zeena is to women what a character wearing a grass skirt and eating missionaries is to africans.

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Geoffrey due to him being a really big jerk even before it was retconned that he was a servant of naugus

 

plus Amy specifically in sonic x because the show had her at i\her worst especially in that love spell episode

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2 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

Yeah, no, Geoffery. Ignoring the whole age difference with Sally thing, his biggest contributions were having a secret service team of b-listers and doing whatever King Max (another contender for the worst) wants. Even Ian couldn't save him, he's just that low.

King Max and Locke have the same problem of being awful, awful people but the narrative bends over backwards to tell you they're right. It's really obnoxious.

Most game characters are too inoffensive to care about hating, honestly.

Those sorts of characters kinda bug the hell out of me as well, though generally it's more often when main characters do it. It tends to be REALLY detrimental when the writers unironically put a main character in a 'don't question them, they're ALWAYS right' type role, especially since a lot of the time they're not consistent enough with their likability enough to make them NOT feel like designated heroes. I mean Locke and Max at least got some moments put against them since they ended up antagonising the main cast at times (hell Locke DIED as a redemption act), but the main cast often are the guys you're MEANT to side with.

Sally and Sonic had similar priggish or hypocritical moments in the comics where the story still wanted them to be the 'right' side or just neglected to give them consequences, and while not to the same degree, I found Sonic (and by extension his closest friends) to be a bit insufferable in Sonic X as well. Even Sticks I think would have worked better if they DIDN'T do the 'cloudcuckoolander was right all along' twist a few times and she got a comeuppance for being an abrasive loon sometimes. These characters just weren't on the ball enough that you didn't want them taken down a peg every once in a while, and even if they were, they'd probably be way too insufferably perfect and boring to work as a main character. 

That said, HATE is a REALLY strong word for these characters.  I don't think I HATE any of them, if anything the characters that draw me the least I tend to just be apathetic towards (Chris Thorndyke is a dull character but he doesn't agitate me that much). If anything it's characters I want to like but don't meet their potential that bugs me WAY more.

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11 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Those sorts of characters kinda bug the hell out of me as well, though generally it's more often when main characters do it. It tends to be REALLY detrimental when the writers unironically put a main character in a 'don't question them, they're ALWAYS right' type role, especially since a lot of the time they're not consistent enough with their likability enough to make them NOT feel like designated heroes. I mean Locke and Max at least got some moments put against them since they ended up antagonising the main cast at times (hell Locke DIED as a redemption act), but the main cast often are the guys you're MEANT to side with.

Sally and Sonic had similar priggish or hypocritical moments in the comics where the story still wanted them to be the 'right' side or just neglected to give them consequences, and while not to the same degree, I found Sonic (and by extension his closest friends) to be a bit insufferable in Sonic X as well. Even Sticks I think would have worked better if they DIDN'T do the 'cloudcuckoolander was right all along' twist a few times and she got a comeuppance for being an abrasive loon sometimes. These characters just weren't on the ball enough that you didn't want them taken down a peg every once in a while, and even if they were, they'd probably be way too insufferably perfect and boring to work as a main character. 

That said, HATE is a REALLY strong word for these characters.  I don't think I HATE any of them, if anything the characters that draw me the least I tend to just be apathetic towards (Chris Thorndyke is a dull character but he doesn't agitate me that much). If anything it's characters I want to like but don't meet their potential that bugs me WAY more.

I feel it's a matter of context too; characters like Geoffrey and Locke are told that they're right, by the author who created them no less. So when they do really shitty things, it's grating to be told how righteous and justified they are. And of course, the magic of hindsight with how public opinion of Ken Penders has shifted over the years to be way more negative, and how a LOT of the actions Geoffrey and Locke took look far worse by today's standards than in the 90's. Like Geoffrey is straight up an ephebophile, there's no getting around that and then we're told by the author that we're supposed to root for him? Naw, nothing Sonic or Sally ever did ever came close to that. The closest thing is when Sally slapped Sonic, and even that was recontextualized as her overreacting, and she was shown as explicitly in the wrong. 

I can take characters being slight jerks to each other, especially if it's for the comedic effect, than just being told I'm supposed to side with someone who's nothing but insufferable. 

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Other characters that I don't like: Orbot and Cubot. I don't like how they always have to be there whenever we see Eggman these days. They manage to turn every cutscene with Eggman (or most of them at least) into unfunny comedy rutines. Also, Cubut has areally grating personality (Orbot is more standable).

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3 minutes ago, batson said:

Other characters that I don't like: Orbot and Cubot. I don't like how they always have to be there whenever we see Eggman these days. They manage to turn every cutscene with Eggman (or most of them at least) into unfunny comedy rutines. Also, Cubut has areally grating personality (Orbot is more standable).

I mean, they weren't in Forces at all soooo. The last time they were really prominent was Lost World, seven years ago. 

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8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, they weren't in Forces at all soooo. The last time they were really prominent was Lost World, seven years ago. 

Both Orbot and Cubot are in Forces. They are never the sole focus of the scenes they're in, but they are there.

I don't think there are any Sonic characters I "hate", but there are plenty I'm apathetic too, at least as far as the grander franchise. I think I can list the number of Boom characters I have any sort of feelings about on one hand, with the rest being a scale of boring to irritating, even if I don't outright dislike them. Same goes for most of the single appearance characters in Archie or Fleetway or AOSTH - I don't dislike them being there but I usually don't give them a second thought. I care just as little about Rough and Tumble honestly.

As far as the games are concerned, I like pretty much all of the main cast you see pop up on Sonic Channel or something like that. I'm not a big fan of Zeena, Zomom, or Zor - so maybe them?

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8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Sally's dad

 

Maximilian or Nigel?

8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

.

Geoffrey

 

 

3 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

Yeah, no, Geoffery. Ignoring the whole age difference with Sally thing, his biggest contributions were having a secret service team of b-listers and doing whatever King Max (another contender for the worst) wants. Even Ian couldn't save him, he's just that low.

 

 

45 minutes ago, Leebo4 said:

Geoffrey due to him being a really big jerk even before it was retconned that he was a servant of naugus

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I feel it's a matter of context too; characters like Geoffrey and Locke are told that they're right, by the author who created them no less. So when they do really shitty things, it's grating to be told how righteous and justified they are. And of course, the magic of hindsight with how public opinion of Ken Penders has shifted over the years to be way more negative, and how a LOT of the actions Geoffrey and Locke took look far worse by today's standards than in the 90's. Like Geoffrey is straight up an ephebophile, there's no getting around that and then we're told by the author that we're supposed to root for him? Naw, nothing Sonic or Sally ever did ever came close to that. The closest thing is when Sally slapped Sonic, and even that was recontextualized as her overreacting, and she was shown as explicitly in the wrong. 

I can take characters being slight jerks to each other, especially if it's for the comedic effect, than just being told I'm supposed to side with someone who's nothing but insufferable. 

To be fair on Geoffrey, he was generally used in an intentionally antagonistic light for much of his appearances before Karl Bollers came on. He was effectively on the Freedom Fighters side and generally came through the few times they really needed him, but in terms of interactions, no one really liked him because of his belittling attitude towards them. Heck, Antoine's development started to take off in part because he suspected Geoffrey had taken his father's plans for the Rebel Underground to prop himself up.

It was around the time Robo-Robotnik started to make his move that he slowly became more sympathetic.

Max effectively had wounded pride and senility motivating him as time went on.

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53 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I feel it's a matter of context too; characters like Geoffrey and Locke are told that they're right, by the author who created them no less. So when they do really shitty things, it's grating to be told how righteous and justified they are. And of course, the magic of hindsight with how public opinion of Ken Penders has shifted over the years to be way more negative, and how a LOT of the actions Geoffrey and Locke took look far worse by today's standards than in the 90's. Like Geoffrey is straight up an ephebophile, there's no getting around that and then we're told by the author that we're supposed to root for him? Naw, nothing Sonic or Sally ever did ever came close to that. The closest thing is when Sally slapped Sonic, and even that was recontextualized as her overreacting, and she was shown as explicitly in the wrong. 

I can take characters being slight jerks to each other, especially if it's for the comedic effect, than just being told I'm supposed to side with someone who's nothing but insufferable. 

I guess with Geoffrey it might be because he had at least SOMETHING of a 'karma houdini warranty'. I mean my memories of the older comics aren't as sharp but I tend to remember at least SOME times he got called out for acting like a swine or getting the wrong end of the stick. He got verbally and physically chewed out by Sonic and even Antoine a few times. He didn't get this as much as he SHOULD have, but there was SOME acknowledgement and consequences down the line to make it feel like he was intentionally flawed. I mean, I don't think for one second we are meant to side with him in Endgame.

With Sally well, I don't really feel like they EVER direct this well enough, and even when they do it's kind of in a fleeting way like the writers are being forced to acknowledge it (eg. the slap gaining closure through exposition over 30 issues later). Later issues did try to make Sally more flawed but I feel like they always missed the mark and they still refused to acknowledged Sally's more priggish qualities which still always got enabled. A lot of reboot stuff like Spark of Life which kept missing the forest for the trees only furthered that idea and that the writers felt they had to change Sally's personality to make her 'wrong'. As she was, she was always modest. As such it felt like a failed attempt at humanising since there's still a refusal to acknowledge her worse qualities point blank.

For Geoffrey's sexual life though? Yeah, there's not much in defence of that one. I mean I can understand WHY it happened just fine. Ages are pretty inconsequential and minor details to the Sonic cast as a whole and Sally and Geoffrey for the large part both act like 20-30 years olds, it's easy to believe that Penders couldn't even remember their official bio ages when writing it or just thought 'who cares? they're cartoon animals', but it sort of falls into the same field as these fictional areas really. Where Penders would really have come out of this a lot better by ditching stubbornly trying to defend this idea and his planning as being solid, and just admitting it was one of those things that he didn't really think through and doesn't work, much like Ian did with stuff like Charmy's brain damage shtick.

How ironic that the author has the same real life refusal to accept flaws.

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27 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

With Sally well, I don't really feel like they EVER direct this well enough, and even when they do it's kind of in a fleeting way like the writers are being forced to acknowledge it (eg. the slap gaining closure through exposition over 30 issues later). Later issues did try to make Sally more flawed but I feel like they always missed the mark and they still refused to acknowledged Sally's more priggish qualities which still always got enabled. A lot of reboot stuff like Spark of Life which kept missing the forest for the trees only furthered that idea and that the writers felt they had to change Sally's personality to make her 'wrong'. As she was, she was always modest. As such it felt like a failed attempt at humanising since there's still a refusal to acknowledge her worse qualities point blank.

I think the reboot, in addition to taking advantage of being rid of a lot of extra baggage, was trying to bring back the whole Not So Different from Sonic thing from early SatAm.

27 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

For Geoffrey's sexual life though? Yeah, there's not much in defence of that one. I mean I can understand WHY it happened just fine. Ages are pretty inconsequential and minor details to the Sonic cast as a whole and Sally and Geoffrey for the large part both act like 20-30 years olds, it's easy to believe that Penders couldn't even remember their official bio ages when writing it or just thought 'who cares? they're cartoon animals', but it sort of falls into the same field as these fictional areas really. Where Penders would really have come out of this a lot better by ditching stubbornly trying to defend this idea and his planning as being solid, and just admitting it was one of those things that he didn't really think through and doesn't work, much like Ian did with stuff like Charmy's brain damage shtick.

How ironic that the author has the same real life refusal to accept flaws.

Yeah, I seem to recall a post somewhere acknowledging that Geoffrey's exact age among other things was something they figured out later. Mr. Penders once described him as "The college jock to Sonic's highschool star" or something like that, but let's be honest, that doesn't really reflect how he was written at times nor matter considering how Sonic characters operate anyway. He just needed to be older than Sonic and cobduct himself in a more professional way when it came to fighting Robotnik.

The statutory thing was more an unfortunate result that came from not thinking through the longterm continuity and Values Dissonance.

It's just extra unfortunate now that Mr. Penders decided to double down on the Sleaze  interpretation for whatever reason.

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It feels maybe a little harsh to call him my least favorite because there's definitely characters I've had a more intense dislike of, but Silver is at least pretty far up (down?) there.

First off, he's ugly. Straight up, one of the ugliest not-deliberately-monstrously-ugly characters in the series. His spikes are just nonsense; with other characters you can see how they map to some sensible hair style and how it relates to their personality and identity; Sonic's spiky but fluid, Shadow's wilder and edgier, Amy's got a cute bob cut, Knuckles has his dreads, etc, but Silver's are just all kinds of fucked up. He's got two giant fins coming off the back and a "bald spot" between them, and a big floppy pot leaf coming off his forehead. What does any of this mean? One of his prototype designs at least had a good idea in that the forehead spikes would be slicked back normally and only fan out when using his powers, which is a time-tested "powering up" visual, but for some reason they cut it (though given it was '06, honestly I could believe they didn't feel they had the time to animate it or something). And is it just me but, even though they don't render these things like actual spikes or hair on any other character either, does Silver's forehead starfish just look disturbingly fleshy? They don't have that even tapering to a point that at least implies it's some kind of spike, they bulge out in the middle, and combined with the placement it looks like some kind of weird growth. It's just terrible and I can't look at it and say that this is a character I respect.

The rest of his design isn't bad in itself, at least, but it feels derivative in a weird way. '06 tried to take SA2's hero/dark divide a step further, going from two opposing hedgehogs to a trio, moving Sonic to the center pivot (the present), leaving Shadow "dark" (the past), and thus making future-boy Silver "light Sonic". Except that his design is really more a mirror of Shadow, with his eye markings, fluffy chest tuft, and golden bracelets. But while Shadow's fewer-than-there-could've-been similarities to Sonic are somewhat addressed in SA2, Silver doesn't really have a reason to look like mirror-Shadow outside of that thematic aspect, and the similarities between them end up making Sonic feel a bit out of place rather than there being a balance among the three of them. It almost feels like they were trying to make lightning strike twice by including some of the same elements, and it ends up being kind of lame.

Second, he's dumb. Not to rehash '06 complaints for the thousandth time, but this is a guy who needed only the slightest prompting by the devil to decide to go off and kill someone. But it's not just that he's dumb, because I actually really like a lot of dumb characters; I like dumb Knuckles and I've defended it as a deliberate element of the character plenty of times. But Silver isn't dumb in a way I find entertaining. They don't really lean into him being dumb, they try to keep his dignity, they frame him trying to off Sonic on satan's instruction as being some tragic mistake. Poor naive Silver, almost did a murder and has to grapple with the moral consequences of it. When you knowingly write a character that is dumb you can have fun with it but when they end up being dumb by mistake it's just annoying. The better interpretations of Silver at least have him be a weird dork, though it's not enough to salvage the character for me.

Third, he's all caught up in time travel bullshit. Time travel is always a hard element to account for and Sonic stories don't play so loose as to get away with avoiding addressing it. Yet avoiding it is what they seem to be doing, having him show up without any explanation of how he's able to jump through time or why he doesn't use it for anything more useful than showing up to fight. Even if you want Silver to show up he has the problem of practically being a walking plothole.

Fourth, he's a waste of cool powers. Telekinesis? Rad as shit. Silver's use of it? Throw some trash and float a bit. And they're not likely to double-up on superpowers so as long as he's around it's wasted on him.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

I think the reboot, in addition to taking advantage of being rid of a lot of extra baggage, was trying to bring back the whole Not So Different from Sonic thing from early SatAm.

I guess the problem was that it still wasn't being called out in universe. Her hypocrisy about excessively calling out Sonic but then making equally impulsive decisions was NEVER linked to or put in her face at any point in the comic, and yet the reboot actually made sure to first hand call out SOMEONE ELSE'S hypocrisy when calling out Sally for being impulsive (but again not making that link). Sure it humanised NICOLE a little and was a good lesson, but again they still point blank refused to acknowledge the idea that Sally had this writing issue, despite it being so consistent with her it may as well have been her defining characteristic. Sure her reasoning was sympathetic, but that's all the more reasoning it would have worked a lot better to just have it called out and humanized, to just accept that Sally was not 100% modest like their bios insisted and just played the idea that she could at times be an inconsistent condescending little fussbudget. Same way Penders should have just accepted that Geoffery looked way more of a loathesome little asshole than he had planned out.

No, no, she's a bad cook. THAT'S her big flaw. :P

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Yeah, I seem to recall a post somewhere acknowledging that Geoffrey's exact age among other things was something they figured out later. Mr. Penders once described him as "The college jock to Sonic's highschool star" or something like that, but let's be honest, that doesn't really reflect how he was written at times nor matter considering how Sonic characters operate anyway. He just needed to be older than Sonic and cobduct himself in a more professional way when it came to fighting Robotnik.

The statutory thing was more an unfortunate result that came from not thinking through the longterm continuity and Values Dissonance.

It's just extra unfortunate now that Mr. Penders decided to double down on the Sleaze  interpretation for whatever reason.

I think I read that DiC refused to give Archie info on the show first hand as well so they had problems making it uniform with it until it was cancelled. Ages were pretty nondescript and Sally wasn't established as 16 until very late in the final season (that said they seemed to take clear notes from the conceptual bible for the show early on, and Sally is FOURTEEN in that).

It definitely feels like one of those things Penders didn't really pay much attention to when writing, and rather than just admitting to that more forgivable mistake, that he like any writer can sometimes overlook small elements of the story and make errors, is worsening his position by stubbornly trying to defend it as intentional good writing that is beyond even the main audience. Better to be seen as belligerent than incompetent it seems.

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    Well shit, Geoffrey's my favorite Sonic character... but it's Ian's wizard Geoffrey, not Karl's "Hate Sink" Geoffrey or Ken's Pepe le pedo. Ain't nobody want Pepe le pedo back except nutters. But really? I don't hate any Sonic character, they're fictional characters. I hate the way they are written.

Case in point; if you look at the way Geoffrey is written between the different writers, he's like a different person. Do I need to say anything more about the way Ken wrote him? I mean, look at the way Ken thought Sonic thought about women! I'd post a link but I can't find it right now. Fuck! I think it's bound to be buried somewhere in TLSC thread. 

But Karl actually had some idea of how to write things, so as he wrote things, Geoffrey is more obviously supposed to be a dick at first, but he releases that he's screwed up, and tries to do better, and is eventually able to work out his issues with Sonic...  in theory. In practice though, Karl went back and forth on this until issue 118, which also iced the SalxGeoff shipping. Thank fuck. Then Sonic and Geoff just stop fighting when Sonic comes back from space. Thank fuck. Geoffrey's also noticeably worse in a fight under Karl, and Issue 97 works so hard at making him look bad that Sonic and Robotnik look horrible as well.  

Ian's Geoffrey is the incarnation is the one people actually seem to like, he's not overpowered or underpowered from the writer's discretion, he actually has a couple of superpowers to fit in with the rest of the main frigging cast, and he's mostly a sympathetic character at that point, trying to do the right thing but going about it kinda poorly. Extremely poorly with bringing Naugus, but better in trying to keep that situation from getting worse. Damn shame we probably won't find out how that was supposed to end, at least for a long time. I hope Ian Flynn wrote down that shit so he doesn't forget where things were going. 

Spoiler

Best ending; Sonic and company beat the Naugus out of Geoff like he's a pinata to satisfy his haters, and... something decent happens to him long term, like, he's recruited for the Secret Freedom Fighters or something to satisfy his fans.

 

The TLDR is that I judge if a like an incarnation of a character, not the basic character themselves. Like, I hate Tsundere Amy that we saw for a long time in the games more then any other character I can think of, but I like most of the spinoff incarnations of Amy? It's weird, I wish I could explain it better. 

Maybe I could? Er, Metal Sonic for Example, my 2nd Favorite Sonic character. The reason I like him so much is... namely because of his awesome looking design, but storywise, he's such a malleable character. He could be a soulless monster, just mass produced killing machines like in Sonic The Comic, he could become the hero, like Shard, he could be a pirate (Captain Metal, anyone?), Shadow's silent friend (Sonic Rivals 2), or even SONIC'S LOVER!

Spoiler

Why do I like Metonic stories so much? Jesus. It's such a dumb concept but I love seeing it in action! I'm kinda disappointed I've never found a Fanfic I liked more than Iron Oxide. 

 

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7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

 One of his prototype designs at least had a good idea in that the forehead spikes would be slicked back normally and only fan out when using his powers, which is a time-tested "powering up" visual, but for some reason they cut it (though given it was '06, honestly I could believe they didn't feel they had the time to animate it or something). 

Didn't it do that though? I seem to recall his hair wrapping back with the rest of his spines while running in particular, but fanning out when using his powers.

7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

The rest of his design isn't bad in itself, at least, but it feels derivative in a weird way. '06 tried to take SA2's hero/dark divide a step further, going from two opposing hedgehogs to a trio, moving Sonic to the center pivot (the present), leaving Shadow "dark" (the past), and thus making future-boy Silver "light Sonic". Except that his design is really more a mirror of Shadow, with his eye markings, fluffy chest tuft, and golden bracelets. But while Shadow's fewer-than-there-could've-been similarities to Sonic are somewhat addressed in SA2, Silver doesn't really have a reason to look like mirror-Shadow outside of that thematic aspect, and the similarities between them end up making Sonic feel a bit out of place rather than there being a balance among the three of them. It almost feels like they were trying to make lightning strike twice by including some of the same elements, and it ends up being kind of lame.

I mean, there is taking that whole "like Trunks" note to it's logical conclusion. Also Black Knight.

7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

 

Fourth, he's a waste of cool powers. Telekinesis? Rad as shit. Silver's use of it? Throw some trash and float a bit. And they're not likely to double-up on superpowers so as long as he's around it's wasted on him.

I mean, there was characters like Black Doom, Iblis, and Master Zik, but yeah.

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I guess the problem was that it still wasn't being called out in universe. Her hypocrisy about excessively calling out Sonic but then making equally impulsive decisions was NEVER linked to or put in her face at any point in the comic, and yet the reboot actually made sure to first hand call out SOMEONE ELSE'S hypocrisy when calling out Sally for being impulsive (but again not making that link). Sure it humanised NICOLE a little and was a good lesson, but again they still point blank refused to acknowledge the idea that Sally had this writing issue, despite it being so consistent with her it may as well have been her defining characteristic. Sure her reasoning was sympathetic, but that's all the more reasoning it would have worked a lot better to just have it called out and humanized, to just accept that Sally was not 100% modest like their bios insisted and just played the idea that she could at times be an inconsistent condescending little fussbudget. Same way Penders should have just accepted that Geoffery looked way more of a loathesome little asshole than he had planned out.

Uh huh

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

No, no, she's a bad cook. THAT'S her big flaw. :P

That's a quick more than anything else.

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think I read that DiC refused to give Archie info on the show first hand as well so they had problems making it uniform with it until it was cancelled. Ages were pretty nondescript and Sally wasn't established as 16 until very late in the final season (that said they seemed to take clear notes from the conceptual bible for the show early on, and Sally is FOURTEEN in that).

Plus Antoine's last name being D'coolette and Naugus being called Ixis.

But yeah, that went around quite a bit back then otherwise.

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

It definitely feels like one of those things Penders didn't really pay much attention to when writing, and rather than just admitting to that more forgivable mistake, that he like any writer can sometimes overlook small elements of the story and make errors, is worsening his position by stubbornly trying to defend it as intentional good writing that is beyond even the main audience. Better to be seen as belligerent than incompetent it seems.

If you can't own up, dig a bigger hole I guess.

23 minutes ago, Mr Silvia said:

    

 

Case in point; if you look at the way Geoffrey is written between the different writers, he's like a different person.

Yeah, that happens sometimes.

23 minutes ago, Mr Silvia said:

Do I need to say anything more about the way Ken wrote him? I mean, look at the way Ken thought Sonic thought about women! I'd post a link but I can't find it right now. Fuck! I think it's bound to be buried somewhere in TLSC thread. 

Oh really? Dare I ask?

23 minutes ago, Mr Silvia said:

But Karl actually had some idea of how to write things, so as he wrote things, Geoffrey is more obviously supposed to be a dick at first, but he releases that he's screwed up, and tries to do better, and is eventually able to work out his issues with Sonic...  in theory

Pretty much

23 minutes ago, Mr Silvia said:

Issue 97 works so hard at making him look bad that Sonic and Robotnik look horrible as well.  

How so?

23 minutes ago, Mr Silvia said:

 

The TLDR is that I judge if a like an incarnation of a character, not the basic character themselves. Like, I hate Tsundere Amy that we saw for a long time in the games more then any other character I can think of, but I like most of the spinoff incarnations of Amy? It's weird, I wish I could explain it better. 

 

This is an excellent point to consider as well. Sometimes it's not the character so much as how they are being miswritten

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Just to restrict myself to games only (because tbh there are way too many to choose from in Archie alone), I think the entire Deadly Six safely hold this honor for me. There have been many Sonic characters that I disliked in the past, but I grew to either appreciate them later on once I stopped caring about things like 2 edgy 4 sonic, or they were written better in future games or other incarnations such as the comics. Hell, fan art has gotten me to like certain Sonic characters that I didn't before. The D6 though, I don't think there's any salvaging of these guys. I already don't like their designs one bit, and they're all centered around very specific clichés with absolutely no meaningful depth or character development. I haven't read any IDW comics featuring them but I'd be surprised if even those endeared me to them, as much as I otherwise immensely appreciate the comics team for doing a lot of good for the Sonic series.

As much as I don't like other characters such as Mephiles or Infinite, they have something going for them that I get why some people do like them. Plus they only showed up in one game. The D6 keep appearing and I'm already more sick of them than I am of the wisps. I don't despise them the way some people do but there really isn't anything for me to get out of any scene that involves them.

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10 hours ago, batson said:

Other characters that I don't like: Orbot and Cubot. I don't like how they always have to be there whenever we see Eggman these days. They manage to turn every cutscene with Eggman (or most of them at least) into unfunny comedy rutines. Also, Cubut has areally grating personality (Orbot is more standable).

They were only spotlight stealers in Colors. Lost World had them there, but Eggman and Sonic and Tails shared a majority of their scenes, so they didnt do much. They flatout were nonexistant in Forces, and they got one or two lines in TSR and Fire and Ice. I can see why people dislike them, but they got better with time, I'd say.

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I feel like we had topic like this once. Oh, well, time passed, new people, new characters, I guess it's worth re-visiting.

I go with rule "there are no bad characters, just bad writing". Even Elise, Black Doom or Nega have potential (and I actually love Marine). I used to hate Zeti, but I grew to like... to tolerate them.

With that said

1) Orbot and Cubot are  faaaar from worst, but they don't deserve screentime they were getting. In world where Rouge or Blaze barely exist, those two basically thrive and that's unfair... even if @thumbs13 is right, they role decreased lately.

2) Lyric is just uninteresting. Design name, powers, nothing catches your eyes (motivation is fine, I guess, but unexplored. I'll take Infinite any day). Deadly Six have most important thing: memorable design. Lyric lacks even that. Even good writer wouldn't know what to do with him, because you can't make something from nothing.

3) And outside games I  can't pick other person that Tommy the Turtle from Preboot Archie.
Just... why? Why the most boring design possible?  Why steal the story about Turtle and the Hare? For one story I guess it's fine, but why bring him back from death? Who asked for that? Why let him join Freedom Fighters, forcing him into first row with Sally and Sonic?
He's not just bad, he's BAFFLINGLY bad.

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I'll try to find the stuff about Ken writing Sonic later, I don't have super long tonight to search for it and I only half remember the details, it's about how Ken thought Sonic viewed women, it has to do with Ken trying to justify killing Sally in endgame, how "Scourge" was able to hit on all the girls in knothole without attracting a ton of attention and how Sonic treated Fiona while still wanting Sally in issues 155-156. It's been a few months since I last looked at these comics or anybody's covered them AND SHITS GETTING OUT OF HAND IRL LATELY. 

Anyway, Issue 97? The loooong version is that we get a story about Sonic dressing up as a Ninja and trying to prevent the Royal Secret Service from being screwed by The Doctor. But it's baaaaaad. So WTF is going on that makes issue 97 so stupid? For reference...

So, the RSS have been sent out to find "The Sword of Acorns", that Sonic lost saving Mina in issue 90. it seems Sonic is taking responsibility for his mistake and save the RSS.  I mean, Sonic made the right call saving her instead of the sword, but he still lost the damn thing. and Karl made Geoff SUPER dickish towards the Freedom fighters right when chuck sent them the message about the sword; in a rather dangerous way. Why was that swat-bot rampaging through everything in Knothole? No wonder Geoff was pissed off.

Anyway, Geoff yells at Sonic to frick off or else before Sonic could tell him the vital information, and rather then just say "It's a message from Chuck about the sword you're looking for" and getting Geoff's attention that way, or telling literally anybody else, Sonic and company do indeed just frick off and subsequently the Acorns get bad info from the wrecked swat-bot, and Maximillion sends the RSS out on a rubbish mission. WHOOPS.

So, Sonic makes a disguise and leaves Knothole, heading out to find the Sword when the RSS are heading out to find it as well, and he decides to help them as well. Sonic seems to be taking responsibility for his mistake losing the sword and save the RSS. Good, great! Even if Sonic is... er, rude... about it. So,we get a story about Sonic running and Sneaking around, while the RSS have to fight their way out of Robotnik's grasp? Do we get Sonic delivering the vital info in a timely manner? Geoffrey seeing through Sonic's hilariously shitty disguise but letting him off the hook since Sonic's risking his life to help them, helping bridge the divide between the two? Action and excitement? 

NOPE 

The RSS move into Robotropolis and immediately get captured. They didn't even appear to bring any frigging weapons. Sonic, who was shadowing them, jumps out and... does nothing, as he is also captured immediately. At least we got the hilarious "DOWN WITH THE FURRIES" panel after that. After the 6 of them are put into a prison, What does the Doctor do? Interrogate them for info? Robotize the group? Kill them? Just... keep them locked away? Use them as Ransom, or bait for a trap? With any of those, he could just send Bomb and Heavy back to Knothole, but maybe he needs to insure H&B will be kept near the Acorns for his plan? Doesn't want to attract anymore attention to those 2 for his later plans to work, perhaps? He just, somehow, gives the RSS members nanites and reprograms H&B to work for him, then lets the group escape with H&B's fake breakout. That last bit's not a bad idea. The rest of this is really questionable though. Why does he not do anything to Sonic? Why would he care about letting this "random" dude go if he didn't recognise him? It seems like the Doctor made these plans in a hurry, since he probably wasn't expecting the RSS to randomly show up without weapons

The cherry on top is that the art is fucking HORRID in this issue too. I'd say at least Karl's writing only gets better from that point on, but the Dulcy domestic abuse issue is about 10 issues later. CHRIST. 

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The Deadly Shits are the worst. I mean there's other characters I hate like Elise, Chris, Cosmo, Sticks, Boom Knuckles, Marine, Mephiles, Orbot and Cubot but nothing beats the Deadly Shits. I can at least see something with everyone else, but I see nothing with them. They are nothing. They have terrible designs, they have the most cliche stereotype bad guy personalities, none of their abilities are cool, nothing about them is good. Yet they keep coming back....like seriously stop coming back. They're trying to make these guys like the next koopa kids like baddies but at least they're done and over with without having to yap or waste my time. So not only do I hate them, but they aren't at least tossed away like a bad memory like most other bad characters, these little shits keep stinking up the place. Go away. I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually really like these characters....they're not even freaking meme worthy. I mean at least give us that if you're gonna suck at everything....but no not even meme worthy. They're a pile of shit a dog keeps leaving on your lawn. You get annoyed, you tell the owner to stop leaving shit on your lawn. Then you forget about them for a while til they shit on the lawn again and remind you how shit they are.

If only I could just banish them



I'll quickly go over Orbot and Cubot and just say they wouldn't bug me so much if they at least had a reason to exist outside of being for conversation. They do nothing, succeed at nothing, and basically just make Eggman look stupid. Have them at least pilot badniks or do something to make them have a reason to exist. Even Scratch and Grounder seem to have more reason to be lackies than those two and they're purposely played up to be bumbling and stupid.

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