Eggman looked up to and admired Gerald Robotnik.. so why did Eggman become evil?

[StarWarsSonic]

Gerald was a genius and worked to benefit mankind.
Now the story the government publicly revealed was that there was an ‘accident’ on the Ark. the real truth about the GUN soldiers murdering Maria and Gerald’s Imprisonment/falling into insanity/execution was all kept out of the public knowledge.

So why would Eggman who looked up to and admired his Grandfather.. even calling him his hero decided to act in the complete opposite way of him?

Now if it was public knowledge of Maria’s murder and Gerald’s imprisonment/execution by GUN then I could understand Eggman being evil in revenge for what happened to his Grandfather.

However because of the official story being a tragic accident, does anyone have any good theories as to what would make Eggman be evil when the man he admired and regarded as a hero was working to benefit humanity.

 

On a side note, I’m curious what Eggman’s relationship was with his parents. We know he admired Gerald but has never mentioned his parents.

I’m guessing either:

1) He had a bad relationship with them or

2) They were just normal average people without the genius IQ of himself or his Grandfather so he looks down upon them and considers them insignificant.

Looking forward to reading people’s ideas/theories regarding why Eggman became evil when his Grandfather was a good man and theories about his parents.

[MetalSkulkBane]

I basically agree, BUT I don't like idea that he became evil as "revenge". I think it was just one of many reasons why Ivo choose evil, but no primary one.

For starters attacking small animals isn't either revenge or what his father wanted.
Secondly in SA2 he never shared that view, even when Shadow wanted exactly that. It just doesn't mesh well.
Thirdly, Eggman most likely never meet Gerald. That makes worship easy, but swear "Batman revenge" kinda impossible
Lastly, IDK, it doesn't seem right for me that SA2 should be THE game to shape Eggman, even if really like it.

In my opinion Eggman his in denial on that (like all good villains), but deep down knows Gerald would condemn his actions. Because by the end of the day, Eggman is just a bad dude.

[Wraith]

Eggman looks up to Gerald because everyone likes Gerald and he also wants to be liked by everyone. He doesn't understand or see the value in humanitarian efforts, just the part where he was praised for his genius. 

[DabigRG]

Combination of not liking GUN, having a vision for the world that most wouldn't just go along with, and his own ego.

As for his parents, you can just stick with the comics where they were just normal people he either left behind or at least there, did away with as far as we knew.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

If you want to go into a deeper route for it - Gerald Robotnik and Maria would've been killed when Eggman was very young. We also know that they were killed in an unfair corrupt act by G.U.N to hide Project Shadow. Having knowledge that the people who "control" the world so to speak are corrupt, and are responsible for the death of his hero might've had been the direct cause of Eggman's turn to darkness.

Some particular pieces of media likes to play off Eggman as being similar to Dr. Wily where they've deluded themselves into thinking that their actions are somehow beneficial to the world, and that under their control, the world would be a better place. Obviously, it's never confirmed because the canon of the series shifts on a dime, but in the case of SA2 in a bubble, I always like to think that Eggman wants to control the world because Gerald's death impacted him, making him realise how corrupt the controlling power was, and he wanted to take over by any means necessary. 

The real issue is that it can change depending on the game you look at. SA2 works well with this theory of G.U.N's corrupt actions being the inciting incident that caused Eggman to become who he was, but something like IDW Sonic or even the likes of Lost World just make Eggman out to be a power hungry egotist who just wants to commit evil acts for the sake of recognition. You can make a lot of theories, but the end result is often inconsistent because the situation tends to change a lot depending on the game in question.

[Natie]

Eggman doesn't exactly see himself as evil, he just has delusions of grandeur and feels he deserves to be praised and that the world would be a better place full of lifeless machines that he can easily control. He surely admires Gerald in the sense that he was a brilliant inventor, but doesn't care about his humanitarian aspects and just wants to have his way through whatever means nessesary. He's always been a bit of a cracked egg from the start.

[Sonario]

All his life he wanted to be a great scientist like his Grandpa, making wonderful inventions for the good of the world and being loved by all.

But eventually he discovered how exactly the world treated geniuses like Gerald: by brutally executing them for their "crimes".

He realized that with the world being what it is, he would suffer the same fate if he followed his grandfather's footsteps. So he had an idea. If the world and it's people were this twisted and wrong, he would take things over and make it right. This simple idea slowly devolved into the megalomania and desire for world domination that we see today.

Once he might have had noble intentions, to make sure no genius would ever be wronged again, but eventually as his narcissism, arrogance and hubris grew, he abandoned all morals and principles and left only one goal in mind, reshaping the world in his image, no matter the means or consequences.

[batson]

Because Eggman is a dick.

[Shadowlax]

Considering how little eggman seems to give a crap about gerald or Maria for that matter its hard to believe gerald was that much of an inspiration at all

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Considering how little eggman seems to give a crap about gerald or Maria for that matter its hard to believe gerald was that much of an inspiration at all

I'll have a longer reply to this topic in general later, but I wanted to respond to this point.

"As a child, I looked up to my grandfather for all the great things he accomplished in his life. He was my hero, and I wanted to be a great scientist like him! But... did he really mean to destroy us?" -SA2

"I will not allow you to defile my grandfather's legacy!" - ShTH

"He betrayed his people for research?! For Black Doom?!" - ShTH, when Eggman is (momentarily) heartbroken and shocked to think that Gerald was truly evil all along. He then expresses relief and admiration when he learns that Gerald was planning to destroy the Black Arms after all.

It's very clear that Eggman deeply respected Gerald and was directly inspired by him. I'm not sure what reading of the games would lead you to say he didn't care about him. You don't call someone your hero if you don't "give a crap" about them.

[Meta77]

9 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

If you want to go into a deeper route for it - Gerald Robotnik and Maria would've been killed when Eggman was very young. We also know that they were killed in an unfair corrupt act by G.U.N to hide Project Shadow. Having knowledge that the people who "control" the world so to speak are corrupt, and are responsible for the death of his hero might've had been the direct cause of Eggman's turn to darkness.

Some particular pieces of media likes to play off Eggman as being similar to Dr. Wily where they've deluded themselves into thinking that their actions are somehow beneficial to the world, and that under their control, the world would be a better place. Obviously, it's never confirmed because the canon of the series shifts on a dime, but in the case of SA2 in a bubble, I always like to think that Eggman wants to control the world because Gerald's death impacted him, making him realise how corrupt the controlling power was, and he wanted to take over by any means necessary. 

The real issue is that it can change depending on the game you look at. SA2 works well with this theory of G.U.N's corrupt actions being the inciting incident that caused Eggman to become who he was, but something like IDW Sonic or even the likes of Lost World just make Eggman out to be a power hungry egotist who just wants to commit evil acts for the sake of recognition. You can make a lot of theories, but the end result is often inconsistent because the situation tends to change a lot depending on the game in question.

Ign eggman is not doing it for recognition. Although evil he thinks what he is doing is out of the greater good *in his eyes* and whatever he thinks is best for the world when conquering it is for the betterment of everyone.

[PC the Hedgehog]

I always figured Eggman admired Gerald for his scientific ability, not for his moral compass.

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I'll have a longer reply to this topic in general later, but I wanted to respond to this point.

"As a child, I looked up to my grandfather for all the great things he accomplished in his life. He was my hero, and I wanted to be a great scientist like him! But... did he really mean to destroy us?" -SA2

"I will not allow you to defile my grandfather's legacy!" - ShTH

"He betrayed his people for research?! For Black Doom?!" - ShTH, when Eggman is (momentarily) heartbroken and shocked to think that Gerald was truly evil all along. He then expresses relief and admiration when he learns that Gerald was planning to destroy the Black Arms after all.

 

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It's very clear that Eggman deeply respected Gerald and was directly inspired by him. I'm not sure what reading of the games would lead you to say he didn't care about him.

 

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You don't call someone your hero if you don't "give a crap" about them.

Because it does nothing for his character going forward, and it can't because he's doctor eggman. He's one of the most famous villians in the history of modern fiction. They can't actually change him that much as they have found out  Finding out his grandfather seemingly created an unrepeatable immortal  super being and was murdered for because he was helping aliens and if he supposed to be your inspiration. That should have like greater effect on his character and how he reacts to that character... and it doesn't really.  Sort of the thing, like there are reacts in the moment but removed from that. Nothing really.

You may suggest " Well everyone outside of their games don't have the same motivations" that's not true there multiple characters who's motivations and what they have been through tend to shape their personality over the series. This is doctor Eggman, this is the villain of the series, this should have greater effect on his character. He doesn't. Gerald and Maria only exist as characters for shadow, they are only relevant for eggman in moments where they need to be relevant and as soon as they aren't he goes back to not giving a shit. Those characters had no effect on him whatsoever, and that's his " Hero" . It doesn't even square up with the story, he should be attacking the goddamn government not sonic and his gang. The fact that he didn't give a shit about the government entity that killed his hero, before and after the revelations is weird.

This isn't even beginning to touch on how I think sega doesn't like that they are related anymore.

So yeah, he doesn't give a crap about them, its one of the reasons I think if there is ever some reboot situation gerald and maria are gone.

[Meta77]

I mean.............he blew up prison island. Which probably had gun soldiers still on it.

[Shadowlax]

11 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I mean.............he blew up prison island. Which probably had gun soldiers still on it.

Cool, Gun still exists. That's the problem. Him blowing up the island was to serve his own end and personal goal. Not like revenge or anything. And again gun still exists. Why does gun still exist he should be trying to blow up all of gun all the time. GUN is still a thing. He didn't learn the entire lesson about letting go that shadow did. He's still a selfish ass mad scientist. Isn't he regularly trying to take over the world, why isn't litterally blowing up the organization that killed your hero and establishing your own new government like thing number 1. He doesn't care. You telling me Dr. Eggman, the guy who is so petty that he holds an enternal grudge against sonic and his friends, the man who is so petty who will creative entire elaborate ways to try and murder those characters. Doesn't give a shit about the organization a government organization that killed his hero, his grandfather? The man who regularly builds entire theme parks dedicated to murdering 1 dude. A theme park of DEATH, for 1 guy. The man who in the same canon captured that same guy and apparently tortured him for 7 months. This obsessed theodore Roosevelt looking ass dude, didn't go after GUN besides blowing up a single island, with mostly robots on it, and who's destruction was more to try and kill sonic and to enact a plan rather than any sort of actual revange? Are you for real?

Eggman only cares about  Gerald when the story needs him to, other wise, he doesn't know who is.

[Dr. Mechano]

I think "revenge" misses the mark a bit.

It's less "Grrr, I wanna get back at GUN" and more "Wow, GUN and the government in general are super corrupt and should not be in charge."

Eggman has occasionally said things to the effect of him trying to make the world a better place by taking it over. In the mobile game Sonic Runners, he outright says his goals are altruistic, saying: "I've spent my life trying to make the world a better place! Discovering lost continents, building theme parks..." and "Look again at my good works, and you'll see they were all for the good of man and creature alike!"

Eggman's a hero in his own mind. Sure, he's trying to subjugate the world and rule over everyone with absolute authority, but he views at as being for the good of everyone, not just him. We can extrapolate from this that he doesn't think too highly of the current governing body. And why would he? They killed his grandfather and cousin. They stole Gerald's work and besmirched the Robotnik name. 

Sure, Eggman's a would-be authoritarian dictator, but from his point of view he's better fit to govern than the supposed democracy that conspires against its own people. So it's less about getting back at GUN, and more about supplanting them by becoming ruler of the world, which he's been trying to do since the beginning. All of this can very neatly work with an Ivo who looks up to and admires his grandfather.

[Shadowlax]

 

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Eggman's a hero in his own mind. Sure, he's trying to subjugate the world and rule over everyone with absolute authority, but he views at as being for the good of everyone, not just him. We can extrapolate from this that he doesn't think too highly of the current governing body. And why would he? They killed his grandfather and cousin. They stole Gerald's work and besmirched the Robotnik name. 

Sure, Eggman's a would-be authoritarian dictator, but from his point of view he's better fit to govern than the supposed democracy that conspires against its own people. So it's less about getting back at GUN, and more about supplanting them by becoming ruler of the world, which he's been trying to do since the beginning. All of this can very neatly work with an Ivo who looks up to and admires his grandfather.

That process would require regularly undermining gun and convincing the populous that is in fact superior. He never does that, he never does that at all , Gun is never involved with any of his schemes unless shadow is a thing in the story and even then they are not guaranteed to interact. He doesn't care about gun, he just wants to take over the world because he think he knows best. And that is something that doesn't require any inspiration or rationale from gerald whatsoever. You are trying to apply lines from a mobile game that can easily be interpreted " Hey whoah hey i'm not he worst guy in the world look at all the things I did " and sonic responds " you mean the bad things"  and him trying to guard his own ego as a giant dissection when its not that complicated , heres the rub.

Eggman's relation to Gerald is only relevant through shadow. The only times eggman cares about or mentions the guy is because of shadow. Other wise, he doesn't care. If he was a relevant part of eggman's world view, he would just come up. He would come up unprompted without shadow being around. Eggman would be having evil scientist block and he would look up to a painting he has of gerald in his lab pondering what what his grandfather do to solve this issue. That never happens, because gerald isn't relavant to eggman , he's relevant to shadow. They just give eggman flavor text about his grandfather that amounts to shit because as soon as the situation isn't about shadow eggman goes to forget his " hero". Everyone elses motivations come up, but not gerald? That speaks to a very intentional separation, they do not want you to associate those characters. 

And that's the situation

[Sega DogTagz]

I think looking for the missing gap in inspiration between Gerald and Ivo does a disservice to how much he actually does have in common with his grandfather. Both have an unavoidable, seemingly magnetic attraction to forces beyond their control and both have made repeated trips down that road. Gerald with the Gizoid, Immortality and the Chaos Creatures. Eggman with Chaos, Gaia and nearly everything else he can get his mitts on. 

Eggy clearly duplicates Gerald's ambitious scientific nature, studies and specializes in much of the same craft (robotics, ancient lore, chaos energy) and reaches the same pitfalls that come with those. Gerald builds Eclipse cannons grafted to space stations. Eggy builds Final Egg Blasters tied onto Death Eggs. They come up with the same ideas in a vacuum. 

As was brought up before, Eggy may have been too young or even not even born at a time to really get to know the kind of Man Gerald was. The only thing left for him to take inspiration from, the only thing that he could look up too and emulate was the legacy of what he built. Space Stations. Mutos. Chaos Energy. Robots. Power. I think the good Doctor checks all those boxes. 

[StaticMania]

Eggman is inspired by his grandfather's  accomplishments, not his actual goals clearly.

[Almar]

Eggman's bio in Sonic Jam's guide says that he doesn't realize the great harm in what he's doing, is not a "bad" man, and wants to mechanize the world.

[DabigRG]

If you really wanna push the Fuck GUN angle, not only did he blow up Prison Island when he doesn't have to, but notice who actually sets it? 

Shadow. You know, the super powerful being that he read about in Gerald's diary and walked into the same location guns ablazin expecting to find a Weapon of Mass Destruction? Well that hypothetical powerhouse is the one doing the safe, espionage based mission of planting the bomb while no one is looking. And what is leading most of the personnel away?

Eggman himself. He's the leader, mastermind, brains of the operation and yet he gives himself the most dangerous and intensive task of drawing their fire away in the middle of the weapons bed. This isn't the only time he does this, but it is a conscious choice in his own plan that also the so called Ultimate Lifeform.

There's also arguably how Shadow's game has spend equal if not more time sending orders to his homebases on how to deal with GUN while he's out dealing with the more dangerous Black Arms elsewhere for most of the campaign, who he only gives the vital Destroy Them All order to once compared to GUNs near always.

 

In other news though, his grandfather has been dead and gone for about as old(or originally longer) as Ivo himself has been alive, so it stands to reason that he really looked up to him when he was young and still does on reflection, he's the acting genius now and has his own active legacy to install on his world, Sonic's, and/or beyond.

[Dr. Mechano]

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

They just give eggman flavor text about his grandfather that amounts to shit because as soon as the situation isn't about shadow eggman goes to forget his " hero". Everyone elses motivations come up, but not gerald? That speaks to a very intentional separation, they do not want you to associate those characters. 

And that's the situation

Eggman talks about Gerald in Sonic Battle in a context that has nothing to do with Shadow, but the Gizoids. Eggman also talks about Gerald's files on the Ifirit in Sonic Rivals 2.

Eggman is interested in Gerald's entire body of work, not just the Shadow stuff.

[Salamander]

Eggman, to my recollection, never shows any sign of having the slightest shred of empathy.  He may admire his grandfather as a scientist, but that doesn't necessarily mean he cares about what happened to him as a person; and I agree with the speculation above that Eggman's feelings are closely tied not just to his grandfather's achievements but to his reputation.  It's also very clear that Eggman has no interest in GUN whatsoever; he probably regards them, quite accurately, as faceless nobodies.  From this, I conclude that, even after learning the truth about his grandfather's death, Eggman probably views that fact as his grandfather's failure rather than GUN's responsibility.

And a good thing to, if you ask me.  Eggman certainly doesn't need his backstory and motivations limited by these events.  He's great because his ambitions are universal and his grudges are saved for the protagonist of the series.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 hours ago, FFWF said:

Eggman, to my recollection, never shows any sign of having the slightest shred of empathy. 

Depends on the game.

In Shadow the Hedgehog, Eggman confesses to Shadow that he's the real deal in the Devil Doom fight. Eggman doesn't have anything to gain from telling him the truth; He just seems to genuinely have a moment of conscience and decides to tell Shadow the truth in what might be his final moments. Sounds like empathy to me.

In other games, we see him showing kindness to his robots. This really varies; Sometimes he insults and threatens them, and other times he dotes over them like they're practically his children. We see him take on a more fatherly tone with Metal Sonic in the Mario and Sonic games for example; he speaks affectionately to him and even pats him on the back with pride.

Eggman jumping to save Tails's life in Lost World is ambiguous; Maybe it was just him playing the long game, to get Sonic to take care of the Zeti for him. But he didn't plan for Tails to be in danger at that moment, and didn't hesitate to protect his temporary-ally at that moment. It at least deserves a spot in the "maybe" pile.

Plus there's this:

I'm not saying he's a good guy, far from it. Eggman is an awful person who, in real life, would be a rightly-hated terrorist. But I think he at least meets the rather low bar for "slightest shred of empathy."

[Leebo4]

I think the answer to thsi question is just that Eggman is evil, him admiring a relative for the good eh did doesn’t mean he won’t end up in a dark path