Knuckles: friend or foe?

[I-EM-EI]

So, I guess as we all know, Knuckles' first appearance back in Sonic 3 showed him as a rival of Sonic. He was the first organic, non-robot character in the series who opposed Sonic, although it was because Eggman had deceived him, then at the end of the game Sonic and Knuckles depart on good terms, not exactly as friends, but rather as allies.

Knuckles would remain on this role up until SA2, when Shadow was introduced as Sonic's new rival. From Heroes onward, Knux kind of became one of Sonic's best buds, and, being the Power member of the team, sort of a second sidekick too, even though he wasn't designed to follow Sonic around like Tails (or Amy). These days their rivalry is barely referenced, and the two seem to get along mostly well.

Which role do you guys think fits Knuckles better? Do you believe he should have remained a rival? Or is he better off as another one of Sonic's friends? Maybe something in between? Personally, I don't mind seeing him as one of Sonic's friends, but I don't think he should follow him everywhere either.

[Volcan Pacaya]

As much as I liked Knuckles rivalry with Sonic, I don't see SEGA using it without making him a gullible idiot. S3&K was naivety. SA1 was misunderstanding. He has no excuse not to know better at this point.

It'd be interesting if they had diametrically opposing goals but I doubt we'd ever get that. Shadow, on the other hand, has no problem working with the doctor when it suits him so it's an easy setup.

[Wildcat]

Ya he cannot believe Sonic is a bad guy ever again.

I think he’s better as his friend. Knowing he can trust Sonic and Tails with the emeralds means he’s not alone in protecting them. It benefits him to have others on his side.

[Starry Skydancer]

I'd really love to see more Sonic and Knuckles freind dynamic.

I'd love to see a teasing and showboating freindship between them, I think they're great for that.

It pained me a little to see Knuckles boasting to Sonic in Sonic Lost World only for Sonic to say...nothing. And Sega please don't tell me it's one-sided rivalry. That's not as fun or as respectful to Knuckles's character and you know it.

 

[Rabbitearsblog]

They're definitely better off as friends.  Like everyone pointed out, it wouldn't make any sense to have Knuckles distrust Sonic again, especially with all the times that Eggman had tricked him.

[Plasme]

The main issue is that Knuckles doesn't really have a reason to be doing anything. I think that's a significant reason for why he's been mostly absent in games. 

In Sonic 3 he was guardian of Angel Island and they tried to make him have an excuse to go to other places by having the Master Emerald shatter or break. They already did that twice in the Sonic Adventure games. There's not many excuses you can use to get him to leave the island which he guards.

When they say "fuck it" in games such as Heroes and Forces and just ignore his ties to Angel Island and the Master Emerald then fans just get annoyed.

[DabigRG]

I just believe his time as rival should've been more explored as well as his gradual evolution into being a friend to Sonic and hero to the world.

On 7/19/2019 at 11:17 PM, DabigRG said:

Knuckles Changeover

As one of the last carryovers from the Classic era, Knuckles the Echidna has had quite a chronicle throughout the franchise. It's no secret that his portrayal or characterization across the series has varied from time to time, not unlike that of Amy or occasionally Eggman. Initially a chuckling antagonist, eventually dutiful neutral, then a hotheaded rival, and finally one of Sonic's toughest friends, Knuckles has changed quite a bit. It's just a shame that said change wasn't really documented attentively.

Born on Angel Island as the last of his kind, it was his assumed birthright to protect the Master Emerald and its power from those who would abuse its power. The solitary nature of this existence meant he was simultaneously hostile to anyone he perceives as a threat, but receptive to those he did not. This made it easy for Dr. Robotnik to convince him of his Death Egg’s innocence and Sonic’s supposed villainy. So he took the Chaos Emeralds from the hedgehog and delayed him with his traps until Robotnik showed his true colors by stealing the Master Emerald to power the Death Egg as well as sending both his Eggrobos and Mecha Sonic to deter the heroes. Ultimately, Sonic and Knuckles worked together to defeat Eggman, restore Angel Island to the sky, and part ways to return to their contrasting lives.  

Since then, Knuckles has had numerous encounters with Sonic, some as nemeses and others as allies. Though they ultimately understand that the other has somewhat well-meaning intentions, the differences between them often caused some measure of conflict. Additionally, their lifestyles were also parallel in that Knuckles felt duty bound to watch over Angel Island on his own, while Sonic enjoyed the freedom to both travel & protect the world below as he pleased. Eventually, the two would amend their rival enough to be able to work together and even just hang out from time to time. But the actual period of warming up to each other has generally been skipped through within the main series and thus Knuckles has lost a fair chunk of his direction as a character.

It would have been a more satisfying progression if we had actually gotten to see some of the procedure Knuckles underwent to grow into something more than his background. First, it would have made for genuine challenge to see him overcome his habitual distrust of Sonic, perhaps by trying to at least recognize some of what rubs him the wrong way about the hedgehog. Second, the process of learning to trust others within reason could expand to sensitively learning to value the outside world as a place that others call home. Third, Knuckles’ paranoia and aggression could be tempered through an increased ability to balance his personal job with an occasional allowance of simple fun in his life, such as indulging in his treasure hunting hobby. Eventually, this would have more naturally developed him from someone who felt like he had to be obsessively stern to keep his heritage in isolation to someone who can be friendlier or even playful because he’s able to appreciate the world that lives under his watch.

 

2 hours ago, Original Character said:

I'd really love to see more Sonic and Knuckles freind dynamic.

I'd love to see a teasing and showboating freindship between them, I think they're great for that.

It pained me a little to see Knuckles boasting to Sonic in Sonic Lost World only for Sonic to say...nothing. And Sega please don't tell me it's one-sided rivalry. That's not as fun or as respectful to Knuckles's character and you know it.

 

Yeah, Generations and Lost World show a more playful take on his Heroes attitude that could be fun if given games where he's a more active part of the adventure, even if for only a bit.

[Diogenes]

Well I mean, he's definitely not a foe. Knuckles isn't a bad guy, he doesn't have any reason to oppose Sonic unless Sonic gets up in his business, and his business is not something Sonic would typically have a reason to be up in.

But that doesn't mean they can't be rivals. They've both got their rough edges, Sonic's cockiness and snarkiness, Knuckles' hotheadedness, that can naturally lead them to butt heads. They're still, ultimately, friends and allies, they sorted out the worst of their differences, but there's still room for some friendly rivalry between them.

[Starry Skydancer]

I do think Knuckles is less tied to Angel Island at this point, after bonding with Sonic and Tails I think he's been more willing to leave his post. It seems implied he takes the Master Emerald with him. (in his Sonic Channel and Sonic Tumblr art you can sometimes see a small green emerald, looks like it can change it's size, in All Stars racing and Transformed, he has it invisibly on his person like a chaos emerald.)

I don't know what he does with the island...might be best to not think about it, parks it in some ocean I guess.

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

If there was a reboot with strong emphasis on story I would love to see Knuckles in between. Going from sad loneliness, followed by Eggman's betrayal and paranoia to trust anyone ever again, with frustration that he's not good enough to protect ME with would lead to hot headed behavior, and slowly learning to trust again, stop hiding in shell of anger and solitude and even take break from his eternal duty to some gear racing and other stupid thing, because now his world is bigger than one floating rock. And no man is an island.

I'm dead serious, this could be great. If I ever figure out how to weave it naturally, I'm making a fic.

With that said, Knuckles just has to move up to friend territory, you can't have temporary status quo as THE status qou. And for what it's work I think it can work. I would prefer Sonic X or Archie where, where he still insists on doing things solo his own way than ... like all modern games? Yeah I know, format makes it hard.

[Kuzu]

To me, Knuckles' biggest issue is that he's kind of redundant as a character now; Tails is intrinsically linked as Sonic's undisputed best friend, and Shadow is pretty much the de facto rival.

So unless they differentiate his role from them, he's always either going to be a third wheel to Sonic and Tails or a just a less cool rival than Shadow.

I don't really know how to "fix" this tho.

[Wraith]

12 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

To me, Knuckles' biggest issue is that he's kind of redundant as a character now; Tails is intrinsically linked as Sonic's undisputed best friend, and Shadow is pretty much the de facto rival.

So unless they differentiate his role from them, he's always either going to be a third wheel to Sonic and Tails or a just a less cool rival than Shadow.

I don't really know how to "fix" this tho.

There's nothing to fix. Sonic can have other friends and rivals with varying degrees of intensity.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

There's nothing to fix. Sonic can have other friends and rivals with varying degrees of intensity.

That's why I said he needs to be differentiated. For instance, what does Knuckles add to the group dynamics that Tails and Shadow lacks?

He's been both a friend and a rival since Heroes and his character hasn't really stood out all that much. Hell, Shadow at least gets to be a boss fight and a DLC character and Tails appears by default to bounce off Sonic.

While Knuckles just....exists.

[Volcan Pacaya]

22 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

To me, Knuckles' biggest issue is that he's kind of redundant as a character now; Tails is intrinsically linked as Sonic's undisputed best friend, and Shadow is pretty much the de facto rival.

So unless they differentiate his role from them, he's always either going to be a third wheel to Sonic and Tails or a just a less cool rival than Shadow.

I don't really know how to "fix" this tho.

They don't need to focus on coolness with Knuckles, just make him the mountain to Sonic's wind.

He'd need to stand in Sonic's way (figuratively and literally) and refuse to get out of it as a direct result of his sense of duty, or for a less intense rivalry his stubbornness.

Sonic would then either go off course finding a way/forced around him or directly oppose him and get nowhere (at least not without wearing him down) while the looming threat advances.

But he'd need a reason to want to stop Sonic from getting past him.

It would have to be something that Sonic doesn't take seriously, or at least not enough in Knuckles' eyes.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

That's why I said he needs to be differentiated. For instance, what does Knuckles add to the group dynamics that Tails and Shadow lacks?

He's the dumb one.

[Kuzu]

20 minutes ago, Volcan Pacaya said:

They don't need to focus on coolness with Knuckles, just make him the mountain to Sonic's wind.

He'd need to stand in Sonic's way (figuratively and literally) and refuse to get out of it as a direct result of his sense of duty, or for a less intense rivalry his stubbornness.

Sonic would then either go off course finding a way/forced around him or directly oppose him and get nowhere (at least not without wearing him down) while the looming threat advances.

But he'd need a reason to want to stop Sonic from getting past him.

It would have to be something that Sonic doesn't take seriously, or at least not enough in Knuckles' eyes.

There is literally no reason for Knuckles to oppose Sonic as of right now without it coming off as contrived.

He's been an ally for so long that him just suddenly turning on him wouldn't feel right.

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

He's the dumb one.

You know what, if he has to be dumb, can he at least look good while being stupid. 

It amazes me how it took until Mania Adventures to portray his stupidity in a positive way.

[Volcan Pacaya]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

There is literally no reason for Knuckles to oppose Sonic as of right now without it coming off as contrived.

Contrived by this series' standards?

Knuckles' whole role in Adventure 2 was because he broke the Master Emerald himself because Eggman randomly wanted it and then didn't anymore.

Besides, better contrived than further dragging Knuckles' characterization through the mud going the lazy route of "because he's stupid, duh".

Quote

He's been an ally for so long that him just suddenly turning on him wouldn't feel right.

Today I learned that allies can never have opposing interests.

[Starry Skydancer]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

To me, Knuckles' biggest issue is that he's kind of redundant as a character now; Tails is intrinsically linked as Sonic's undisputed best friend, and Shadow is pretty much the de facto rival.

So unless they differentiate his role from them, he's always either going to be a third wheel to Sonic and Tails or a just a less cool rival than Shadow.

I don't really know how to "fix" this tho.

My opinion on "how": Bickering, teasing, showboating, two fat egos in freindly competition. Deep down they really care about each other.

Honestly I think Shadow starts looks less of the "rival" by that point, he's kind of done his own completely seperate thing each game now.  Apart from racing games, and even then I don think it's Sonic per se. But I can't be assed to reasearch Sonic Free Riders or TSR's "story"

 

 

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Volcan Pacaya said:

Contrived by this series' standards?

Knuckles' whole role in Adventure 2 was because he broke the Master Emerald himself because Eggman randomly wanted it and then didn't anymore.

Besides, better contrived than further dragging Knuckles' characterization through the mud going the lazy route of "because he's stupid, duh".

Making things more contrived isn't improving anything. You're just gonna add more confusion.

6 minutes ago, Volcan Pacaya said:

Today I learned that allies can never have opposing interests.

All I'm going to point to is Sonic Lost World and how easy it can be to mess up a potential "allies with opposing views" types of stories.

 

You would need a damn good reason for why Knuckles suddenly wants to oppose Sonic when he's been nothing but a staunch ally for almost twenty years now without feeling extremely artificial, like with Lost World.

This requires just a slight bit more consideration than just "Do X".

 

6 minutes ago, Original Character said:

My opinion on "how": Bickering, teasing, showboating, two fat egos in freindly competition. Deep down they really care about each other.

Honestly I think Shadow starts looks less of the "rival" by that point, he kind of does his own thing.

 

 

Given that the franchise is hell bent on giving those traits to Shadow nowadays, I doubt they'll ever give them back to Knuckles.

[Volcan Pacaya]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Making things more contrived isn't improving anything. You're just gonna add more confusion.

  There's nothing confusing about two characters having opposing interests, even if they are friends.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

All I'm going to point to is Sonic Lost World and how easy it can be to mess up a potential "allies with opposing views" types of stories.

You would need a damn good reason for why Knuckles suddenly wants to oppose Sonic when he's been nothing but a staunch ally for almost twenty years now without feeling extremely artificial, like with Lost World.

This requires just a slight bit more consideration than just "Do X".

Something being done poorly is not evidence that it cannot be done well. I can point to Sonic gameplay to show how easy it is to mess up.

"Do X well."

[Starry Skydancer]

I think drama between two freinds is particularly hard to get right. I usually dislike it.  I goddamn HATE drama(tm)

[Volcan Pacaya]

7 minutes ago, Original Character said:

I think drama between two freinds is particularly hard to get right. I usually dislike it.  I goddamn HATE drama(tm)

Oh, I have zero faith in Sonic Team pulling it off.

[Kuzu]

It varies between the types of characters you're working with, and what their established personalities are.

As Sonic and Knuckles are established right now at this time, there is little to no reason for them to be opposing each other without either; making one of them more hostile than usual.

Or

Introducing some foreign element that drives a wedge between them.

 

Drama between two good guys is hard to write and easy to fuck up

[G-Force]

Honestly, I think Diogenes hit the nail on the head.  Sonic and Knuckles should be friends and allies with a bit of a competitive rivalry. 

Exactly which side of their relationship comes put would depend on what's going on.  If the fate of the world's at stake then they would team up, no questions asked, but if it's just something like Team Sonic Racing?  Knuckles should be putting his own team together to kick Sonic's butt.

[Kuzu]

Genuinely curious though; the people that want Knuckles to be "the dumb one" and don't mind it. Why? What benefit does his character serve as being stupid is something I really wanna know about? Is it to make everyone else look smarter? Is it for comic relief? What?