Jump to content
Won't Stop, Just Go

Paper Mario: The Origami King

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, Operationgamer17 said:

I noticed that in the English battle screenshot, there are “hint” and “cheer” commands. Hints are obvious, but what would the audience cheering do?

Maybe cheering from the audience will fill a gauge for a move, like in Thousand Year Door.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh, I don't know...the trailer gave me very mixed feelings. While the battle system actually looks interesting this time and we finally have a new (and hopefully good) villain after so many years of Bowser, I still can see that dreadful Sticker Star and Color Splash influence all over the game's design.

It's still early to judge the ups and downs of Origami King, but I'm not very confident about it after being burned by two meh predecessors. If this game is just Color Splash 2, I will make my peace with this series and waste my time with better RPGs (and maybe hope for a new Mario & Luigi game). 

Btw, sometimes I wish I knew why Nintendo is so restrictive not just with Paper Mario but with the Mario series in general. There's a huge difference between caring about the quality or world of your IP and neutering creativity. Some people like to blame Miyamoto and his design philosophy for this, but they forget that he isn't the only one that has influence over what does and doesn't happen with Mario.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Cayenne said:

Btw, sometimes I wish I knew why Nintendo is so restrictive not just with Paper Mario but with the Mario series in general.

They aren't.

The standardization Mario was going through has been pretty non-existent recently and Paper Mario's direction is only happening due to its current director.

But...leniency is never gonna happen again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Like is this really a rare viewpoint or something? That Paper Mario is in fact made of paper?

It's always been a stylistic visual thing, with occasional cartoony paper gags, but it's kinda jarring when it's brought up in the dialogue or as a major part of the story.

Characters acknowledging that they're literally made of paper takes me out of it. In the first three titles, these were - ostensibly - the same Mario characters from the non-Paper games. That's why in PM64 Goombario mentions the events of Super Mario Bros. or Luigi's diary mentions the kart/party/sports games. Or how Paper-debuting characters like Goomboss and the Star Spirits went on to reappear in non-Paper titles.

Suddenly going "Yeah, we're literally paper and it's not just a stylistic visual aesthetic" forces a disconnect between "Paper Mario" and Mario proper. That very disconnect is the conceit behind Paper Jam, which shows Nintendo's gone all in on the "Paper Mario is an alternate universe" premise, and I personally dislike it. I dislike it for the same reason I dislike classic and modern Sonic being separate universes; A holistic series where everything happened is more appealing to me than one that's arbitrarily broken into different splintering continuities. (Though I'd say even if Paper Mario is its own universe, the post-Sticker Star games don't tonally or visually mesh with the first three Paper titles at all.)

The paper stuff is good. I like the visual direction for Origami King. I'm just not a fan of them beating us over the head with constant reminders that "This is the paper version of Mario, not the 'main' Mario" over and over again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I don't think this is the clever retort you think it is.

Anyone who has also been here since the forum wipe I suspect would disagree. You're not as slick as you think you're being in this thread, or all the status updates you shit up this morning with your "um actually" clarifications to concerns people were having after it was announced. This act you've been doing in the past 6 months or so where you pull this devil's advocate card about series that people are very passionate about that you're seemingly indifferent to just so you can pick fights is wearing pretty thin; even if it wasn't being viewed in the context of your decade long history of borderline fanaticism about how a real Sonic games should be designed and how people who get more enjoyment from games that aren't that way are wrong and haven't seen the light yet.

 

 

 

 

Full disclosure: I've only played the first Paper Mario game, and only watched a playthrough of the second. But I've absolutely played the Mario and Luigi games (except the remakes), even going so far as to get some to play when I didn't have the console they were on, and I absolutely watched how that series was run into the fucking ground by taking throwaway ideas and humor that were in the first game and exaggerating them until they were major self-aware parts of the game design because everything else was padded for shit and dumbed down. "Wow, remember when Luigi was kind of a loser and a coward in a couple scenes in Superstar Saga? People loved that, so let's make that the crux of every scene he's in!"

It's not at all insane to worry about Nintendo doing the same god damned thing that they did with that series with the latest entry in this other similar series on an even worse skid; and rebutting people's concerns about things like whether the latest game is going to be meddled with and focus tested to hell like became a meme with Sticker Star and Color Splash with responses like  "maybe those things you don't like the look of in this game so far are being done on purpose" doesn't make you look super clever for calling out people being too passionate about something they care about. It makes you look like an asshole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty excited for this! I haven't played Sticker Star or Color Splash so I can't really make comparisons, but I do like the way the battle system looks. The rotation deal looks cool.

Not too pressed over the partners being generic. I did like the designs of the Toads and whatnot from the old games, but I can't say I really paid much mind to them to begin with.

Bob-omb the Bob-omb actually seems interesting to me, because his body language implies that he's a chill dude compared to other Bob-ombs, especially when you take into account his lack of a fuse, hehe.

I'm curious how they'll function in battle. Apparently Bowser and Bowser Jr. join Mario at certain points, but I don't think they've elaborated on that point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Characters acknowledging that they're literally made of paper takes me out of it. In the first three titles, these were - ostensibly - the same Mario characters from the non-Paper games. That's why in PM64 Goombario mentions the events of Super Mario Bros. or Luigi's diary mentions the kart/party/sports games. Or how Paper-debuting characters like Goomboss and the Star Spirits went on to reappear in non-Paper titles.

I just don't think Mario's continuity was ever meant to be...well...to be, at all, really. Mario 3 was a play, it opens with stage curtains, you exit each level offstage into the darkness and all, but it's no less loved and no less important for it. And it's hard to square all the spinoffy karting and tennis and such with "Bowser is actually a big evil monster who kidnaps an innocent princess basically constantly" if it's all "real". It plays so loose with itself that I think it can get away with having different interpretations coexisting in an amorphous mix of "Mario".

3 minutes ago, Tornado said:

This act you've been doing in the past 6 months or so where you pull this devil's advocate card about series that people are very passionate about that you're seemingly indifferent to just so you can pick fights is wearing pretty thin

I actually do care about Paper Mario, I'm just not fanatically dedicated to the first two games to the exclusion of all other options (Color Splash was a good game that deserved better). If my posting hasn't been as productive as it could've been it's because discussion of something I think looks pretty cool was instantly swamped with complaints, some about things we don't even know for sure yet, and that makes me a bit bitter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I just don't think Mario's continuity was ever meant to be...well...to be, at all, really. Mario 3 was a play, it opens with stage curtains, you exit each level offstage into the darkness and all, but it's no less loved and no less important for it. And it's hard to square all the spinoffy karting and tennis and such with "Bowser is actually a big evil monster who kidnaps an innocent princess basically constantly" if it's all "real". It plays so loose with itself that I think it can get away with having different interpretations coexisting in an amorphous mix of "Mario".

I mean... In Sunshine, FLUDD analyzes Mario and sees a clip from SMB3 as part of Mario's history (while FLUDD himself was invented by E. Gadd, who debuted in a spinoff title, Luigi's Mansion). Odyssey also has a flashback sequence that includes SMB3 as an event that actually occurred.

Super Mario Bros. 3 was stylized as a play, just like the old Paper Marios were stylized as paper. Maybe it's a play of some real event in the Mushroom Kingdom, or a pop-up novelization of the same. But I think it's a bit silly to say it never happened at all. The go-karting with Bowser is simple; Even in the platformers and RPGs, Bowser's kind of a lovable goofball rather than someone truly despicable. He's a villain, but not someone who's above a little friendly competition on his off time, and I feel like that actually perfectly squares with how he's written in the games that actually give him dialogue.

I agree that the series plays fast and loose with continuity, but I also don't think there is none. Not every writer or director who contributes to the franchise sees eye to eye with Miyamoto, so we have an inconsistent approach to storytelling that sometimes acts as though a canon exists and sometimes doesn't. I think it is perfectly valid and fine for people to prefer either, and in light of that, to be disappointed when the series seems to be rolling back on what seemed like the established settings and characters from before.

I think that's a reasonable stance to take here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean... In Sunshine, FLUDD analyzes Mario and sees a clip from SMB3 as part of Mario's history (while FLUDD himself was invented by E. Gadd, who debuted in a spinoff title, Luigi's Mansion). Odyssey also has a flashback sequence that includes SMB3 as an event that actually occurred.

Super Mario Bros. 3 was stylized as a play, just like the old Paper Marios were stylized as paper. Maybe it's a play of some real event in the Mushroom Kingdom, or a pop-up novelization of the same. But I think it's a bit silly to say it never happened at all.

I mean, it's less that I'm saying that it didn't happen and more that the question of what did and didn't happen doesn't have much meaning. What exists is what's convenient at the time you ask the question, and whatever else is in the vague soup. Referencing spinoffs is convenient for Paper Mario in the same way referencing E Gadd was convenient for Sunshine, and that's about as far as it's meant to be considered. It's all Mario, even if it's different Mario, whether it's real or not.

Maybe this is a weird way of seeing it (and I'm definitely not explaining it very clearly) but I just can't see Mario as something that was meant to be pieced together and I think it's ultimately found more freedom in not doing so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Maybe this is a weird way of seeing it (and I'm definitely not explaining it very clearly) but I just can't see Mario as something that was meant to be pieced together and I think it's ultimately found more freedom in not doing so.

Well.

Maybe.

I don't know. The old RPGs sure seemed to have more semblance of story, and growing up, they really enchanted me with their portrayal of Mario's world. It made me want to see these games as part of a cohesive story, because individually they pushed the boundaries on what kinds of stories Mario could tell. Seeing the franchise veer away from that, as in the post-2012 Paper Mario games, has really disappointed me.

I think I'm just coming to terms with investing years of intrigue and fandom energy into a body of fiction that... wasn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

discussion of something I think looks pretty cool was instantly swamped with complaints, some about things we don't even know for sure yet, and that makes me a bit bitter.

Funny how it feels different when the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't played a Paper Mario game since Thousand Year Door, but that's mostly because Super Paper Mario didn't look as interesting to me and I didn't own a 3DS or Wii U to be able to play Sticker Star or Color Splash. I actually like this trailer myself, the story looks fun and that's what sucked me into the first two games. Maybe it won't be, and I'd definitely be even more excited if it looked just like the older games, but what's here looks like a good enough time for me to get it at some point after it comes out. Not like Odyssey which was got me to get a Switch as soon as I could, but still something fun to add to my library.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Color me beyond skeptic into true pessimism. This looks like it will be the Sonic Forces of Paper Mario at best. They’d cram in winks, nods, and stylistic flourishes to the original trilogy, but at the same time the gameplay, story depth, and visual style bring Sticker Star more to mind. With the end of Alpha Dream, it becomes a lot more painful to see this. It would actually be amusing to see Mario attempt full-blown edgy like some Sonic games did, however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Well.

Maybe.

I don't know. The old RPGs sure seemed to have more semblance of story, and growing up, they really enchanted me with their portrayal of Mario's world. It made me want to see these games as part of a cohesive story, because individually they pushed the boundaries on what kinds of stories Mario could tell. Seeing the franchise veer away from that, as in the post-2012 Paper Mario games, has really disappointed me.

I think I'm just coming to terms with investing years of intrigue and fandom energy into a body of fiction that... wasn't.

Aw, don't feel that way. It can get exhausting following any long running series that can change at the drop of a hat. Mario has gone through it, Sonic has gone through it and nearly countless comic book characters go through with it all the time. I've been a Mario fan on the internet since the 90s, I know what it's like to have people tell me again and again that Mario either doesn't have a story or if he does it's not important.

Enjoy these stories and characters because you enjoy these stories and characters. I'll never forget watching the cowardly Luigi overcoming his fear of ghosts to the point he was willing to adopt one.  I'll never forget young Rosalina realizing she will never see her parents again. Bobbery learning to accept that he wasn't responsible for Scarlette's death is one my favorite moments in all of gaming. Super Mario Bros Z, The 3 Little Princesses and so many other Mario fanfics, comics and animations wouldn't be a thing if story never mattered or existed. I don't think you can get that kind of passion and love from just gameplay alone.

These moments we enjoy and invest time and energy into have meaning, even if others don't feel the same.

"Though you will mourn, I beg that you remember that time, like love, is a tide. You are one with the sea, as you were one with me. Do not lose both your life's loves." - Scarlette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

[entire very touching post]

Thank you.

You're right, honestly. 

I think... for me, I'm just going to pick and choose the aspects and interpretations of the series I like, and leave the ones I'm indifferent to or negative toward. Whether or not a unified Mario story is ~"official"~ shouldn't matter if the fans can get value beyond authorial intent.

Maybe there'll be some story/character elements to Origami King that aren't so bad, to keep this on topic. I do admit that it's at least stepping outside of the post-Sticker Star boundaries a little more by having an actual new villain and an alliance with (maybe playable? not sure) Bowser. 

These are still baby steps toward the Paper Mario of old. Partners - even generic nameless enemy partners - are better than no partners. Maybe next time we won't just get Goombas and Koopa Troopas, but Goombas and Koopa Troopas with unique names and designs. Maybe Origami King will throw us old fans a bone like Sticker Star did with its Goombella research paper (which was only in the English version, but I'll happily accept them).

Either way, it's looking a lot better than the previous two entries, even if I'm not completely happy with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s a pipe dream at this point, but man seeing Geno make a appearance somehow here would be so cool to see. Like as an unlockable partner, or random NPC. I always figured showing up in one of the rpg styled Mario games was one of his best shots at resurfacing, if not Smash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a fan of early Mario & Luigi, and as somebody who played Sticker Star and hated it, I have a lot of sympathy for classic Paper Mario fans; but there's a risk that we overlook anything that isn't a carbon copy of the things we love.  Nobody's obliged to be enthusiastic about a series taking a new direction - heaven knows I hate what Nintendo's been doing with Yoshi - but some of the criticism being levelled against this game seems alarmist and unfounded, as if the very idea of it not being TTYD means it will automatically be bad, rather than just not what some people are looking for.  I don't know if this will fill the Mario RPG void for me, but what they're showing so far looks like something I could have a good time with.

I think what's selling me on this game is that it looks like they have a clear creative vision.  Their advancing graphical prowess gives them the ability to render their paper aesthetic in ever more sophisticated ways; that in turn has inspired them, as it did long before Sticker Star, to integrate aesthetics into gameplay and narrative; and the result is this immediately visually distinctive and compelling clash of flat versus fold.  It's a really organic progression, and the very fact that they're willing to embrace this fusion of aesthetics and gameplay gives them more creative opportunities.

And the story (in strict fairness I should say world) honestly looks really promising, too.  We see loads of different set pieces in that trailer and we've seen a respectable number of partner characters, and the trailer takes care to underline that they are vocal regardless of how generic they are.  The flat versus fold aesthetic conflict makes it logical to use stock characters to better draw these comparisons - and Nintendo's been doing amazing things with the stock characters in their writing recently (anyone who didn't play the new storylines in the M&L 3DS remakes is really missing out).  Conversely, I'm not particularly sold on King Olly's design just yet (or name, but I assume in Japan he's King Ori(gami), so it's perhaps a translation artifact); he seems rather simplistic, but that's clearly the point, to underline his visual connection to Olivia and to make his inevitable subsequent origami transformations more striking by comparison: It's pretty obvious that the Shy Guy was actually a disguise for him, rather than vice-versa; and he's visually a component of the paper aeroplane attacking Bowser's airship later, too, and so doubtless there will be more and more.  Nintendo's allergy to original characters is wildly exaggerated; I'm sure they'll be back en masse when Nintendo's ideas take them outside the Mushroom Kingdom again, but there have still been interesting characters all this time, designs notwithstanding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paper Mario has always been filled to the brim with Paper gags(it'd be kind of an insane waste of time if it wasn't), but I feel like there was a shift where someone decided it needed to be the point of the series, and not a convenient  stylistic way to frame what was at it's core an RPG/Adventure game. There are a lot more dialogue and purely character driven jokes in the first two games than the latter ones which focus more on stylistic gags. All games have a mix of both of these things, but from where I'm standing the shift was noticeable.

This also goes for the mechanics. The first three or so games featured things like origami as one off gags and mechanics: supplementary to the exploration and combat. Now they are the game down to being the focus of the title. Traditional RPG style mechanics were thrown out for a newfound emphasis on paper themed puzzle solving in the overworld. They are the game now instead of being a stylistic choice.

And I mean, these games always have puzzles so shifting over to those doesn't have to be a disaster on paper, but one cool thing about RPGs is how time and thought much you end up investing in a group of characters-often literally, and how that change gets reflected in combat over the course of the game. TTYD offered an extremely simplified version of these mechanics but it was still enough especially if you were young to see growth in your party alongside their development as characters. Shifting the gameplay around was going to change the experience irreversibly, even if Nintendo tried their best to keep as much of the experience of the first two games in tact.

I'd argue that they didn't even make an attempt and if any other Nintendo series was as thoroughly gutted of it's soul as this one you'd see even more aggressive responses.  It's like if Other M became the series standard. Paper Mario fans have the patience of saints by comparison. Super Paper Mario came around with it's brilliant ideas to "solve" the fact that not everyone liked RPG mechanics in, what, 2007? We've been here ever since. 

And I'm just not sure what it was all for if not to improve the experience of the previous games. Almost every other Nintendo series introduces new gimmicks to compliment what was already there. Planetoids in Galaxy were created to focus the platforming. Motion controls were added to Skyward Sword to bring newfound emphasis to the directional swings that were always a part of Link's kit. Things like a bigger emphasis on platforming and more tangible gimmicks like stickers and origami would have been good additions to the core systems of the previous games, not as replacements. 

And that's the crux of my argument with this series. It's easy to blame the newer games's flashy gimmicks and stylistic touches for them gutting the core experience, but they're not necessarily at fault. Someone at Nintendo just decided that core experience wasn't worth preserving, and that's the real shame. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if this is how it felt to be outside of the Sonic fandom when Sonic 4 dropped and most of the target audience hated it. 

I don't really have a stake in the argument since I've never once played a Paper Mario game; in fact, I've never really played a Mario RPG before. Not sure why they've never been able to grab my attention. Maybe I'm not really allowed to give my opinion on this. That said...

...I think this game looks pretty nice. For me it's too soon to tell if the narrative is going to be as intense as the trailer seemed to depict it, but I do think this looks visually stunning and is going to have some funny moments here and there. I'd give it a shot. If my girlfriend is interested in it, I'd play it along with her, basically.

I'll be checking this one out, and I'm not terribly concerned if liking it is going to be an unpopular take. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I don't really have a stake in the argument since I've never once played a Paper Mario game; in fact, I've never really played a Mario RPG before. Not sure why they've never been able to grab my attention.

tbh if you've never played a Paper Mario game this doesn't seem like a terrible one to start out with. I think longer time fans who didn't like Intelligent Systems constantly changing the formula and getting rid of unique partners after TTYD, or gutting the storytelling and character moments after Super, or ramping up the obnoxious meta writing or making battles pointless and not fun in Sticker Star/Color Splash are understandably on-edge of this being more of the same whether or not it's "too early to tell". I'm sure most people would like to be wrong, but the trailer doesn't fully illustrate why people who liked earlier Mario RPGs should care about this one when the later ones didn't appeal to them.

I will say on the bright side, hopefully expendable attacks are gone; seeing that in Color Splash (never saw Sticker Star, but rarely heard good things about it) put me off immediately, along with feeling like the battle system was tacked on just to give the illusion of it being a RPG after Super Paper Mario went for a platform/adventure style instead with some light RPG elements.

The game looks neat enough from the trailer, but I'd have to wait to see unedited video before deciding if it's worth spending $60 on. I didn't really feel anything about it which I think is a sign the game isn't for me. I adore 64 and TTYD and think they can be enjoyed by just about anyone because of their presentation, writing and simple gameplay. Maybe if you're interested in this one you can check out the older ones after and see how the experiences compare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So it looks like they are actual active partners that do shit and aren’t just npc’s that will follow you around 

 

edit: just saw the “color splash” lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.