Paper Mario: The Origami King

[Blue Blood]

28 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

I think the problem for the battle system on it's own is that it still pays lip service to the RPGs by letting you control your attacks after lining up the enemies which comes down to just using the best item you have. Its shallow as an rpg and it brings down the puzzle segment.

The puzzles seem to grow more complex as time goes on, but when the puzzle has been solved, you got through the slog of the half baked rpg. Itd be better if they just removed the rpg aspects. If they're that determined to leave them behind, then just RIP the bandage off and get it over with. 

The puzzles are also pretty shit. The entire battle system is a crappy tedium with no incentive or payoff. In the early stages of the game, there are very few optional battles .most come on the form of scripted encounters, which makes it feel like something you must slog through.

The RPG aspects are what make Paper Mario. The only game that wasn't an RPG at all was Super. SS, CS and now OK all try reinvent the wheel using right angles and don't seem to realise that it's never going to work. What would actually be better is if they removed the puzzle sections as they are useless, unfun padding in battles and created an entirely different system that was fun and rewarding.

[VO.SUPER]

3 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

The puzzles are also pretty shit. The entire battle system is a crappy tedium with no incentive or payoff. In the early stages of the game, there are very few optional battles .most come on the form of scripted encounters, which makes it feel like something you must slog through.

The RPG aspects are what make Paper Mario. The only game that wasn't an RPG at all was Super. SS, CS and now OK all try reinvent the wheel using right angles and don't seem to realise that it's never going to work. What would actually be better is if they removed the puzzle sections as they are useless, unfun padding in battles and created an entirely different system that was fun and rewarding.

You are at the beginning of the game, so obviously you're not dealing with the more complex ones which even GX admitted were challenging in their own right. 

They aren't anymore. Paper Mario is not that Paper Mario anymore, it's this, SS, and CS. 

Bringing back the RPG isn't an acceptable answer because they've said they dont want to and will not. So the only answer is to move forward. 

[Blue Blood]

10 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

You are at the beginning of the game, so obviously you're not dealing with the more complex ones which even GX admitted were challenging in their own right. 

They aren't anymore. Paper Mario is not that Paper Mario anymore, it's this, SS, and CS. 

Bringing back the RPG isn't an acceptable answer because they've said they dont want to and will not. So the only answer is to move forward. 

I'm into the a Blue Steamer area (the second world), so my progress so far includes two bosses and plenty of regular battles. Even if you want to say I'm still early in the game, that doesn't change the fact that the puzzles aren't fun. And I also don't care about what GameXplain "admitted" regarding difficulty. The puzzle system in these battles is not fun. What do GX's opinions have to do with anything?

As I said, SS, CS and OK are all fundamentally RPGs, with other elements woven in. They're different to PM and TTYD, but that doesn't stop them being RPGs. And being different doesn't stop them being good. The problem is that they're not very good games regardless of the genre you label them with* and have terrible design flaws that persist through each game. I'm not even talking about the world, characters and story, just the gameplay loop of overworld traversal,  battles and progress.

 

* The jury is still out on OK as it may improve as I get further into it.

[VO.SUPER]

1 minute ago, Blue Blood said:

I'm into the a Blue Steamer area (the second world), so my progress so far includes two bosses and plenty of regular battles. Even if you want to say I'm still early in the game, that doesn't change the fact that the puzzles aren't fun. And I also don't care about what GameXplain "admitted" regarding difficulty. The puzzle system in these battles is not fun.

As I said, SS, CS and OK are all fundamentally RPGs. They're different to PM and TTYD, but that doesn't stop them being RPGs. The difference is that they're not very good RPGs* and have terrible design flaws that persist through each game. I'm not even talking about the world, characters and story, just the gameplay loop of overworld traversal,  battles and progress.

 

* The jury is still out on OK as it may improve as I get further into it.

The problem is that they still hold on to the RPG when they dont want it to be one anymore. The RPG holds back the full split. 

Just turn it into a full on puzzle game, a visual novel, or just your lucasarts styled adventure game if you dont want the rpg, because the rpg holds back a game that is less tedious for it. 

 

[Blue Blood]

8 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

The problem is that they still hold on to the RPG when they dont want it to be one anymore. The RPG holds back the full split. 

Just turn it into a full on puzzle game, a visual novel, or just your lucasarts styled adventure game if you dont want the rpg, because the rpg holds back a game that is less tedious for it. 

 

You know how the series has still got some of the essence of Paper Mario? Let's just kill it.

That's what you're saying.

[VO.SUPER]

9 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

You know how the series has still got some of the essence of Paper Mario? Let's just kill it.

That's what you're saying.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

That's what they want to do, and it's what they've been pushing it towards. Paying at best lip service to the RPGs proper. 

Get on with it and just stop freaking tip toeing around it.

[Your Vest Friend]

Actually, I do remember something from a while back (while M&L was still alive) that said that Paper Mario was being steered towards being an adventure series because M&L had the RPG corner, so them actively trying to push away from the RPG aspects wouldn't be too far-fetched.

Anyway, I came in here to make a single spoiler comment.

Spoiler

What is with the PM series and its obsession with Gooper Blooper?

 

[Sonictrainer]

...did Paper Mario always have the Sonic Adventure 1 Jump Soundbite?

[VO.SUPER]

Playing up to the third streamer. Yeah, I really like if, but the game confirms to me the RPG parts are really the worst of it. 

If this game was more committed as a puzzle/adventure game, I'd say it could be brilliant. 

The soundtrack is really ace though. 

[Danj86]

On 7/18/2020 at 1:11 AM, Your Vest Friend said:

Actually, I do remember something from a while back (while M&L was still alive) that said that Paper Mario was being steered towards being an adventure series because M&L had the RPG corner, so them actively trying to push away from the RPG aspects wouldn't be too far-fetched.

Anyway, I came in here to make a single spoiler comment.

  Reveal hidden contents

What is with the PM series and its obsession with Gooper Blooper?

 

I remember seeing something like that being said too. Can't remember when or where it was reported from.

Also, I personally wouldn't call that a spoiler. The battle was shown in the announcement trailer iirc.

-----

I'm also commenting to admit that I got the game, I was trying to wait for Arlo to review it but....who am I kidding? Put a mascot character in a staring role and I'll inevitably buy the game, regardless of if it was received well or not...

Fun but pointless trivia for you. While waiting for OK to download, I was playing Bug Fables. I still haven't completed it and am cherishing the time I spend on it. I'm not really critical of most games, I never spotted the short comings of SS and CS until they were pointed out to me. So maybe because of that, I'm looking closer at Paper Mario: The Origami King and judging it too harshly...?

As I walk up to the first stream, the battle system has been a hit or miss with me. It does drag on, having to move the panels and then attack, every time. On the other hand, I've also made mistakes and almost paid the full price of HP for it, so the game can be harder if you act brashly or zone out completely which did happen to me, once. The battles are also generous with coins and confetti, in fact, I stopped to beat up a tree to see how long it would give out confetti...they don't stop. Once the ground around you is covered in fallen confetti, the tree will stop producing it but will continue if you pick up what was dropped. Items do seem to cost more to compensate for the amount of coins you are given, though I've had no difficulty in buying what is on sale in the game at the moment.

Nothing stands out humour wise, though I do recall laughing out loud at one line which I ultimately can't remember. I don't reckon much to our new partner at the moment, she tends to blurt out the obvious which I get is useful for learning the ropes, it can just slow me down when I already figured out what I need to do while she is spelling out. Some of the ways that Toads are hidden have been fun to reveal so far. The music is also as fun as ever. Maybe it's just me but the Sweet Sap Loggins theme sounds so fast and funky, it'd fit in a Sonic game.

While I can nit-pick a little, I'm still having fun with the game so far.

[VO.SUPER]

The confetti does become harder to come by as you go on in the game, so it's certainly not as cut and dry. 

But difficulty is kind of all over the place really. Most of the time they'll be very manageable, and others you'll get bursts of bonkers. 

[VO.SUPER]

Just beat the game 100%. I'm not one for lengthy write ups anymore, but let me say, I really like this game. Though I recognize it has many faults. For me, I was basically engaging in everything the game was throwing at me, and I felt it really did help me in staying engaged through the whole adventure. Though if you're going straight through this game, I can imagine there being a lot of deadzones. This game really leaves a lot of its variety in optional material.

The battles are hit or miss. For me they were largely hits because I went out of my way to not use features to make them easier, and because I was going for 100% I was definitely running dry on coins and confetti at points which did necessitate me to engage.

I found the story really engaging for the most part. It's not as funny as Color Splash, but I feel it makes up for it with more grounded writing. It's the first game that is actually touching on the logistics of a paper world and the oddity of such a place. But it asks these questions just enough to not start getting too mind-bending and freaky.

Some of the enemies during the green streamer section really were creepy in that sort of meta way, and I wish we got to see more of them.

Something else:

Spoiler

 I find it funny how the game is really centered on Toads in this weird meta-way. They've been mandated to all look the same and be as the happy-go-lucky subjects of Princess Peach, yet we see time and time again how this aloof nature gets them into trouble, between cutting down the trees in Whispering Woods, and just casually scribbling on Olly without much of a care in the world.

They actually remind me a lot of the Candy People from Adventure Time, just not as openly stupid. And the fact this whole game is all about Olly hating all of them with a passion seems to show some developer frustration with them.

 

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

Spoiler

and just casually scribbling on Olly without much of a care in the world.

 

That's...not really what happened.

Spoiler

The toad who created him left an encouraging message on him, it's just that Olly couldn't read it and assumed it was something thoughtless.

 

[VO.SUPER]

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's...not really what happened.

  Hide contents

The toad who created him left an encouraging message on him, it's just that Olly couldn't read it and assumed it was something thoughtless.

 

That's... not what I mean.

Spoiler

The message was encouraging, but it never occurred to the Toad that Olly couldn't read it. Olly just assumed he was being made on trash and the Toad never tried to address this.

In fact, he misses the point entirely and believes that his mistake was just giving Olly life in the first place when it was more his lack-a-daisy attitude all the Toads seem to share just doing things because and getting in trouble for it. Then bouncing back when the trouble is over.

 

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

That's... not what I mean.

  Hide contents

The message was encouraging, but it never occurred to the Toad that Olly couldn't read it. Olly just assumed he was being made on trash and the Toad never tried to address this.

Spoiler

Ok but like...I don't see how this is the toad's fault? Olly could've just asked, instead of going full genocide over it.

 

[VO.SUPER]

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

  Hide contents

Ok but like...I don't see how this is the toad's fault? Olly could've just asked, instead of going full genocide over it.

 

Spoiler

The theme just seems to be that the Toads are just careless airheads and everyone is frustrated at them.

Just this group of weirdos who don't seem to care about the things they do and usually get in trouble for it. It's bookended by  the Whispering Woods segment, where the Toads just seem to do stuff  without thinking about who they piss off, ending off with Olly's motive.

It's possible the Toad just moved on to the next project after finishing Olly without telling him anything about life and all that was going on. Olly got frustrated and just stuck him in the wall when he didn't explain.

 

[Cayenne]

Man, the music in this game slaps so hard. Every track is amazing, especially the boss themes:

Spoiler

 

 

[Cayenne]

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/paper-marios-producer-elaborates-on-the-challenge-of-npc-restrictions/

VGC posted an article with more details about the NPC restrictions, explaining the lack of varied designs for the Toads:

Quote

In a separate interview with GamesRadar Tanabe elaborated on the NPC restrictions, specifically stating that it’s no longer possible for the Paper Mario team to “graphically represent individual characteristics” in the game’s Toad NPCs.

Quote

“From the production of Paper Mario: Sticker Star onwards, we were no longer able to graphically represent individual characteristics, such as age, gender etc., in the Toad NPCs (non-playable characters), and so it has become that much more important to convey their personalities simply through text,” Tanabe said.

“Our writer, Mr Taro Kudo, has been grappling with this difficult challenge since Paper Mario: Sticker Star, but has managed to achieve giving all the texts a sense of humour,” he added. “In this instalment, Paper Mario: The Origami King, we were able to include some Toads wearing an outfit to match their role, and also created original origami characters.”

 

[iambitter21]

fun fact: did you know that one of the most controversial songs in the paper Mario series is this?

At least, In the comment section. there was this one comment that went something like, "I don't care how much hate I get, but this is my favorite song in the paper Mario series" or something very similar to that. and what do you know, someone insulted them for liking it, saying something like, "cause this is the only game you've played, you 9 year old" or, again, something similar to that, IDK I was in the bathroom after I heard the news. then crap broke loose, someone turned from good to annoying, someone deleted their account, magically came back to push down someone's opinion (then leaves again), and all is fine for now. Now, when you look up Paper Mario Sticker Star Ost, you'll most likely see meme's and tributes in the comment sections, like a LOT of them.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Late to the party, but just got around to finishing Origami King myself. I jumped into Origami King a few months following me finishing Paper Mario N64 on the 64 Online app, and having played Super Paper Mario near to completion, and a little bit of Sticker Star. Going into it, I didn't know what to expect really, as I haven't gotten the chance to play TTYD (It being stupidly rare and expensive), and knowing how in recent years, Mario games had lost a lot of originality.

But I was very pleasantly surprised with Origami King. I thought the story was honestly really good, balancing some spooky moments, humour, seriousness, and heartfelt moments really well, having a lot of interesting locales to explore (Shogun Studios, Shangri-Spa, and the Toad Tomb being my favourites), a killer soundtrack, and a really nicely detailed visual world. While I'm still not a fan of the mandate that Paper Mario is a original world, since the original game easily slotted into Mario canon, but if you're gonna do that, I do really like Origami King's approach where they really play with the idea, and use it for a unique world, visual design, and story that can only be done through that lens. 

That said, I do have to admit the battle system just...was not for me. I had a feeling it was going to wear thin by the end of the game, and that's exactly what it did. I grew bored of the puzzles, didn't particularly like the fact items had a durability system, the fact Mario's regular attacks could never finish enemies off with the correct lineups sometimes, and the boss design by the end was just terrible. Having one hit KOs all over the place just made things so much more frustrating, especially when they don't even telegraph it particularly well either. 

The boss designs I didn't particularly love either. While the personalities they gave to the stationary were fun, it still felt like a leap too far in the paper world for me. To a degree it kind of clashed. It do like some of the ways they did use them though, like having hole-punched toads used for horror, or treating Scissors as a massive threat constantly bored with everything for obvious reason. But even the elemental bosses, I didn't particularly love the design of, personally. 

Origami King overall is a weird case to me. I loved a lot about it. The story, the characters, the writing, the world-building, the locales, the visual design, the soundtrack (Especally the soundtrack), but the battle system will make it hard for me to want to replay the game again, on top of me personally feeling there's a bit too much bloat to the game at points (Honestly it feels like the third and fourth streamers in particular could've had some of it chopped out for the sake of better pacing.)