Was Amy ever THAT bad?

[Red Hot Jack]

4 hours ago, 4th Chaos Emerald said:

EVERYONE was exaggerated in those games you mentioned. EVERYONE. This is is exactly what I was talking about when I said how people only seem to care when it's Amy that's being flanderized. But like I also said, Amy had her own team and sidekick in Heroes.

When did SA1 Amy ever "stalk" Sonic? She actually approached Sonic so he could help the "birdie" and it was actually HIM who was acting weird first. Then the rest of the game, she's helping Gamma and the bird.

It's not weak for a female characters to have a crush on Sonic. Think of all the movies with a strong "male" character and romantic subplot. Does that make them weak? This is even a thing in stories made by female writers like Twilight.

 

Look, I get it that you love the older Amy, but she was a stalker. 

Everyone else was exaggerated... doesn't make it good writing for her though, it's not an excuse to justify that Amy was a stalker.

By "SA Amy" I mean Adventure series, both games. So, she definitely was irritating at times. I even said SA1 Amy is okay, I didn't say she was all bad.

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Uh, not really?

She was mostly minding her own business before getting involved in Lilly's escape from ZERO and just happened across Sonic, which gave her the idea to ask for his help.

Maybe and maybe not. I definitely remember her whole Prison Island arc, "I'm here to rescue Sonic" forcing him to go on a date with her in exchange to get him out. Lmao. I remember that scene.

Plus of course, she ALWAYS mistook hedgehogs for her Sonic. lol

I know it was meant to be played for laughs, she was still annoying. And I definitely don't get the fuss over her change, obviously there was a major change, but her crush for Sonic is still there, so what's the matter exactly?

She can be "strong" in a variety of ways. She didn't turn automatically into Sally just because she leads a resistance in the comics.

Her crush is still there, so ok. It didn't make her whole character before but it was a very big part of her character, and that's why you insist into wanting it back, but she still has that part inside her NOW. 

I really don't get the issue here...

[D.H]

2 minutes ago, Jack at Home said:

Look, I get it that you love the older Amy, but she was a stalker. 

Everyone else was exaggerated... doesn't make it good writing for her though, it's not an excuse to justify that Amy was a stalker.

By "SA Amy" I mean Adventure series, both games. So, she definitely was irritating at times. I even said SA1 Amy is okay, I didn't say she was all bad.

Maybe and maybe not. I definitely remember her whole Prison Island arc, "I'm here to rescue Sonic" forcing him to go on a date with her in exchange to get him out. Lmao. I remember that scene.

Plus of course, she ALWAYS mistook hedgehogs for her Sonic. lol

I know it was meant to be played for laughs, she was still annoying. And I definitely don't get the fuss over her change, obviously there was a major change, but her crush for Sonic is still there, so what's the matter exactly?

In the interest of fairness, I think it's worth pointing out that she was clearly joking with the whole "prison island" scene. She even played it off when Sonic dismissed her efforts. But again, the issue isn't so much her crush on Sonic (which is still there), but moreso how she's not really doing much in the mainline games, despite her character "developing" in recent years. Even IDW!Amy, which I don't have much issue with, one could make the argument that Amy was just as active in the post-SGW Archie comics than she is now.

[Red Hot Jack]

2 minutes ago, D.H said:

In the interest of fairness, I think it's worth pointing out that she was clearly joking with the whole "prison island" scene. She even played it off when Sonic dismissed her efforts. But again, the issue isn't so much her crush on Sonic (which is still there), but moreso how she's not really doing much in the mainline games, despite her character "developing" in recent years. Even IDW!Amy, which I don't have much issue with, one could make the argument that Amy was just as active in the post-SGW Archie comics than she is now.

I know, that's another issue, this is less about her change, more how the cast doesn't get used much in games like Lost World and Forces. Especially Forces, it has the issue that characters talk without showing off their personality. TSR Amy is fine for example, like everyone in that story, interactions are great because there is plenty of personality there. And of course the comics, which have a lot more meat. I'm not saying she was bad in Reboot Archie, she was well written.

[D.H]

1 minute ago, Jack at Home said:

I know, that's another issue, this is less about her change, more how the cast doesn't get used much in games like Lost World and Forces. Especially Forces, it has the issue that characters talk without showing off their personality. TSR Amy is fine for example, like everyone in that story, interactions are great because there is plenty of personality there. And of course the comics, which have a lot more meat. I'm not saying she was bad in Reboot Archie, she was well written.

Oh yeah, I can agree that they've done a poor job on handling the cast. I just feel like SEGA's dropped the ball on Amy as a character since Heroes & outside of her crushing on Sonic less as well as being less energetic in the main games, there hasn't really been much in the way of development for her in recent years, I guess.

[Kuzu]

11 hours ago, 4th Chaos Emerald said:

She's really not, unless if having two minute worth of scenes combined from both Lost World and Forces qualifies as being a main character lmao

Like I said, she's very much under utilized, but Sega do treat her as a main character in all promotional material.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

And then there's Cream, who was initially conceptualized to be her own kid sidekick.

Eeeeh, not really. It's more like they made Heroes and was like "Oh crap, Amy needs a Tails equivalent for her team! Let's just use the new rabbit girl from Advance 2. That'll work." And they kept trying to push the two together after that with it not really working much. Let's not forget that Cream's first game had her either on her own or working with Sonic, Tails and Knuckles with Amy nowhere in sight outside of a non-canon bonus unlock.

I still find it funny how Cream worked way better as Blaze's sidekick instead. Wish we'd gotten more of that instead of Marine ruining things.

[D.H]

19 minutes ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

I still find it funny how Cream worked way better as Blaze's sidekick instead. Wish we'd gotten more of that instead of Marine ruining things.

Oh yeah, Cream as Blaze's sidekick kinda works better because of how contrasting the two personalities are, as opposed to Amy & Cream who are the "nice & sweet" girls of the series. Amy & Cream being friends makes sense, but it didn't work as well as other duos in the series. 

This is one reason why I kinda wish Sticks was in the main series, since she would actually contrast well enough with Amy's personality, that she could work as a sidekick

[Multikaris]

I think Amy receives heat for the same reason Sayaka Maizono from Danganronpa does; Die For Our Ship. A more popular option for the lead was available over the more feminine and sweet one, so they decided to accentuate the negative, more nerve-grinding traits of their disliked option; hence the "Sayaka is a Snake" meme. This, along with a few fairly bad mid-2000s Amy showings, especially alongside their "more desired options", and some bleed from insatiable critics, formed the hate. Sayaka's less-than-pure actions are over-exaggerated, by a fandom that tends to like genuinely villainous characters such as Nagito Komaeda ,to make her look bad, looking like a deceptive monster who cared about nobody but herself, whereas there are far slimier characters in the series, several of which are genuinely hated. Later media also makes it quite clear Sayaka was a nice person driven to despair. Amy is also in a series with far more pushy characters, yet she gets exaggerated in an act of Die For Our Ship. 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

Eeeeh, not really. It's more like they made Heroes and was like "Oh crap, Amy needs a Tails equivalent for her team! Let's just use the new rabbit girl from Advance 2. That'll work." And they kept trying to push the two together after that with it not really working much. Let's not forget that Cream's first game had her either on her own or working with Sonic, Tails and Knuckles with Amy nowhere in sight outside of a non-canon bonus unlock.

I still find it funny how Cream worked way better as Blaze's sidekick instead. Wish we'd gotten more of that instead of Marine ruining things.

No, i mean she was legit designed for Heroes as Amy's answer to Tails with the intent for her to stick around in Amy's subplots. Her presence in Advance 2 came about because they wanted to make it fresher compared to Advance 1 and take advantage of Cream's youth to have a pseudo-Easy Mode. And since Advance 2 would be coming out much sooner in 2002 compared to Heroes beginning production a little after 2001 and then coming out over two years aftee, it just made sense to treat the former as her debut. They still left in dialogue and exposition from the original intent, though.

You still hit on where I was going with that though: while Battle, Advance 3, and Shadow's game still operated under that purpose, their dynamic ultimately wasn't that well developed or even established; Cream tended to have more of a meaning or chemistry with characters like Sonic, Big, Emerl, and of course Blaze compared to Amy. 

Which is likely part of why Cream started to wane in presence(not that she was super important anyway) & even appearances after 06 and therefore a testament to Amy's struggle: the attempts to do more with her as a character were often undersold, poorly handled, or flat out overshadowed by everyone else.

[DabigRG]

22 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

I think Amy receives heat for the same reason Sayaka Maizono from Danganronpa does; Die For Our Ship. A more popular option for the lead was available over the more feminine and sweet one, so they decided to accentuate the negative, more nerve-grinding traits of their disliked option; hence the "Sayaka is a Snake" meme. This, along with a few fairly bad mid-2000s Amy showings, especially alongside their "more desired options", and some bleed from insatiable critics, formed the hate. Sayaka's less-than-pure actions are over-exaggerated by a fandom that tends to like genuinely villainous characters such as Nagito Komaeda to make her look bad, looking like a deceptive monster who cared about nobody but herself, whereas there are far slimier characters in the series, several of which are genuinely hated. Later media also makes it quite clear Sayaka was a nice person driven to despair. Amy is also in a series with far more pushy characters, yet she gets exaggerated in an act of Die For Our Ship. 

I guess that's a minor factoid to go to as well, but not by much.

It is true that Blaze could be generally considered a cooler character in that regard as well.

[4th Chaos Emerald]

4 hours ago, D.H said:

Thinking about it, I suppose the biggest issue I have with Amy's character these days is how much they're talking about how "empowered, mature & improved" she is, without really showing it. Lost World she was on the sidelines for the entire game & she spent most of Forces in the background, talking to Buddy. Most of her better moments ever since they started this new direction for the character came from external media, like IDW or LEGO Dimensions, while she continues to do very little in the actual mainline games. It may be a bit too early so I'm not gonna write off this interpretation of her or anything, but if they're actually developing the character, I would like to see her take an active role in the plot again, while still maintaining her positive/energetic personality. Shouldn't be too much to ask for, I don't think.

The thing is, it's not like it's an adult threatening a child. It's a child threatening a child. They had a sibling-likr relationship, which is how siblings can act in real life.

Otherwise, I agree. One of my biggest problem was actually they say Amy's now a "mature, strong female character" without actually showing it.

2 hours ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

Eeeeh, not really. It's more like they made Heroes and was like "Oh crap, Amy needs a Tails equivalent for her team! Let's just use the new rabbit girl from Advance 2. That'll work." 

Actually, it was the other way around. Cream was supposed to debut in Heroes but SEGA felt like it would've been a better introduction in Advance 2.

3 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

Look, I get it that you love the older Amy, but she was a stalker. 

Everyone else was exaggerated... doesn't make it good writing for her though, it's not an excuse to justify that Amy was a stalker....

You've yet to explain how she was a stalker. And it does justify the writing for her. Nobody holds Tails and Shadow to how they're portrayed in Forces and Shadow...

[Sonictrainer]

26 minutes ago, 4th Chaos Emerald said:

You've yet to explain how she was a stalker. And it does justify the writing for her. Nobody holds Tails and Shadow to how they're portrayed in Forces and Shadow...

...you sure about that?

People have been discussing Tails' current role in the games since Colors.

Meanwhile, we're still trying to figure out how Shadow can be written without being too overpowered or too edgy.

 

[4th Chaos Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

...you sure about that?

As sure as people talking about how Tails and Shadow downgraded over the years lmao

[PC the Hedgehog]

She tried to beat Sonic into submission to get him to marry her in Heroes, only "raised' Emerl in order to prove to Sonic that she'd be a capable wife, and was willing to defend Sonic from Silver in 06, even if doing so meant Sonic would cause the destruction of the entire space/time continuum.

Yeah, at her worst, Amy was a dang loon.

[DabigRG]

7 hours ago, 4th Chaos Emerald said:

 

The SA1 arc DID amount to something. It amounted to her having her own team and sidekick in Heroes, just like her hero. 

I

Not entirely sure of the correlation there, but either way, what has she actually done with any of that?

7 hours ago, 4th Chaos Emerald said:

What can we see come out of Tails's independent arc after Heroes?

The Tornado 2, the Cyclone, the Fake Emerald, the Spaceship, his mission in Circus Park, his attacks in Battle, his research on the Gizoid & Lost Hex, the Miles Electric, his friendship with Professor Pickle, the Wisp Translator, the Wispon, and probably some of the Resistance's inventory. 

That's not the point I was making though. See my response to Wraith.

7 hours ago, batson said:

I never played the game, but didn't Amy once threatened Cream with violence in Sonic Battle? Because if so, then that's definitely going way to far with the whole psycho-angle.

She rigorously sparred with her at kickboxing but I don't remember a threat. You might be thinking of Rush though.

 

7 hours ago, D.H said:

Yeah. I mean don't get me wrong, Amy had some bad writing in the mid-2000s games (Battle, Rush for example), but Heroes!Amy being only defined by that one scene when the entire game was filled with characters acting like idiots so they have a reason to fight each other is a bit silly to me. She led her own team, kept their motivations high even when they felt like things weren't going well & actually showed something resembling leadership capabilities.

And I can't exactly agree with dismissing her Adventure 1 story, just because SEGA dropped the ball on developing it a few games afterwards. Tails & Shadow got similar treatment after a while too, but it doesn't discount their stories & how well done they were.

 

Amy gets it worse because, in addition to other characters just having more to attach to and justify them, Amy effectively abandons her post to chase Sonic for a minute while they're confused teammates try to sort out the actual issues.

[Sega DogTagz]

20 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

She rigorously sparred with her at kickboxing but I don't remember a threat. You might be thinking of Rush though.

 

Just to provide a spot of clarity to anyone who didn't play the handhelds 

 

In Battle Amy more or less forced Cream to participate in a few Boxersize matches, to which Cream was a vocally unwilling participant (which was even more jarring considering this was Cream at the height of her pacifist persona). Boxersize was essentially sparring, so Amy was forcing Cream to defend herself in combat, in the name of getting fit enough for Sonic to notice her. Amy was so focused on getting fit, that Creams objections fell on deaf ears and Amy's own health took a turn for the worse due to over-exertion. 

In Rush, Cream introduces Amy to Blaze and remarks that her adoration of Sonic makes her short-sighted, to which Amy responds violently. She makes a clear threat and chases her with her Hammer. Cream shouts something along the lines of "Not Again!" making it appear that this is not a rare occurrence. The altercation is short lived. 

[DabigRG]

7 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

 

She can be "strong" in a variety of ways. She didn't turn automatically into Sally just because she leads a resistance in the comics.

 

I guess Sally is just that ubiquitous if that's an immediate takeaway.

3 hours ago, 4th Chaos Emerald said:

The thing is, it's not like it's an adult threatening a child. It's a child threatening a child. They had a sibling-likr relationship, which is how siblings can act in real life.

Otherwise, I agree. One of my biggest problem was actually they say Amy's now a "mature, strong female character" without actually showing it.

 

Do they actually say that, now that you mention it?

[D.H]

52 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Amy gets it worse because, in addition to other characters just having more to attach to and justify them, Amy effectively abandons her post to chase Sonic for a minute while they're confused teammates try to sort out the actual issues.

It's been a while since I've played Heroes, but IIRC, the only time Amy actually left Team Rose behind to chase Sonic was after they had completed their mission of rescuing their friends, which Cream & Big didn't really have an issue with. Hell, lame reasoning aside, Team Rose actually had a good reason to confront Team Sonic in the story mode since the newspaper at the beginning of their story showed Sonic with Chocola & Froggy. 

9 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I guess Sally is just that ubiquitous if that's an immediate takeaway.

Do they actually say that, now that you mention it?

In regards to them actually saying it, yeah, that's a line that has popped up recently when talking about the current portrayals of Amy Rose. Most notably in the recent AMA on reddit.

[4th Chaos Emerald]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

The Tornado 2, the Cyclone, the Fake Emerald, the Spaceship, his mission in Circus Park, his attacks in Battle, his research on the Gizoid & Lost Hex, the Miles Electric, his friendship with Professor Pickle, the Wisp Translator, the Wispon, and probably some of the Resistance's inventory. 

You mean making inventions? Like he did in the beginning of SA1? And he's back to cowering without Sonic to Choas 0, which we seen he can fight on his own in the Adventure games.

3 hours ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

She tried to beat Sonic into submission to get him to marry her in Heroes, only "raised' Emerl in order to prove to Sonic that she'd be a capable wife, and was willing to defend Sonic from Silver in 06, even if doing so meant Sonic would cause the destruction of the entire space/time continuum.

Yeah, at her worst, Amy was a dang loon.

1) She didn't know what was Silver's motives. She only knew he was chasing after this dude. And excuse me, but where the hell did you get "even if doing so meant Sonic would cause the destruction of the entire space/time continuum" from lmao?

And also, if you're going to bring up Amy's worst moments, you should bring up everyone's bad moments. Because every character had their moments.

[PC the Hedgehog]

40 minutes ago, 4th Chaos Emerald said:

She didn't know what was Silver's motives. She only knew he was chasing after this dude. And excuse me, but where the hell did you get "even if doing so meant Sonic would cause the destruction of the entire space/time continuum" from lmao?

I had to rewatch the scene. My bad; I meant the destruction of Silver's world (though he did give Mephiles the power to potentially wipe out the space/time continuum at the end of the game).

Anyhoo, Silver had explained to Amy that Sonic brought about the destruction of his world. She didn't believe it, but said that even if it was true, she'd choose Sonic over the world. She legitimately loves Sonic to the point where she has no problem letting an entire world be destroyed as long as her beloved Sonic was still alive.

And I brought up Amy's bad moments because this topic is about Amy. Don't even get me started on poor Knuckles.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Just to provide a spot of clarity to anyone who didn't play the handhelds 

 

In Battle Amy more or less forced Cream to participate in a few Boxersize matches, to which Cream was a vocally unwilling participant

Oh was she? I must admit that I've only watch a playthrough and some cutscenes and even that was months ago.

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

(which was even more jarring considering this was Cream at the height of her pacifist persona).

 

To be fair, this was the game to introduce and then resolve it from what I understand.

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

In Rush, Cream introduces Amy to Blaze and remarks that her adoration of Sonic makes her short-sighted, to which Amy responds violently. She makes a clear threat and chases her with her Hammer. Cream shouts something along the lines of "Not Again!" making it appear that this is not a rare occurrence. The altercation is short lived. 

Okay, to be a little fair, that is kinda funny. If mostly because there is a cutscene graphic of Amy reserved for that specific moment and the character who causes it is Cream of all people. Wow.

[Sega DogTagz]

13 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

To be fair, this was the game to introduce and then resolve it from what I understand.

eh, 50/50. The idea of Cream being a pacifist is built directly into her character. The reason why she was developed with a Chao attack in Advance 2 was so that she wouldn't completely shatter her aura of a sweet innocent little bunny. Furthermore, her detest of violence is something that is constantly brought up in bio's and supporting materials. 

Battle was certainly the most extreme example - to the point where she wouldn't even fight back against something that was trying to kill her - but her anti-violence stance has lingered on before and after Battle.

 

1 hour ago, 4th Chaos Emerald said:

And also, if you're going to bring up Amy's worst moments, you should bring up everyone's bad moments. Because every character had their moments.

You don't have to look too hard around here to see people ripping Tails, Knuckles and Shadow a new one on the regular. Why are you expecting them to regurgitate that in a thread dedicated to Amy? That makes no sense. 

[Tornado]

My memory is hazy since I haven't played it in probably a decade, but in addition to her being a violent sociopath in Heroes and Rush, I recall in Battle her entire story was based on her creating an elaborate internalized reality where Emerl was her actual child that she needed to raise properly to show Sonic that she is a responsible mother and thus worthy of his hand in marriage; up to and including imagining Sonic was fighting alongside her in a battle to defend Emerl that she has an episode over and collapses upon losing.

 

 

In a thread about whether she was ever really that bad, it should be noted that that's the kind of thing done in real life by fucking crazy people; and in the midst of a story that was otherwise pretty decently done, with understandable character motivations (if a bit forced at times to pad out the game length and justify fights) and interactions amongst each other, it stands out all the more when it doesn't so much in Heroes. The only Sonic Team-related thing in this time period where she actually had a personality (as opposed to a collection of traits pulled from Yandere Simulator) was Sonic X, of all things.

4 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Battle was certainly the most extreme example - to the point where she wouldn't even fight back against something that was trying to kill her - but her anti-violence stance has lingered on before and after Battle

Which is funny in itself, because she was even more broken in Battle than she was in Chronicles. Makes the whole thing come off as a World of Cardboard speech instead.

[StaticMania]

53 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Which is funny in itself, because she was even more broken in Battle than she was in Chronicles. Makes the whole thing come off as a World of Cardboard speech instead.

Cream becoming a super hero who resents how weak the rest of the world is...is just ripe parody material.

[Mauro Fonseca]

16 hours ago, batson said:

I never played the game, but didn't Amy once threatened Cream with violence in Sonic Battle? Because if so, then that's definitely going way to far with the whole psycho-angle.

Being a fighting game, EVERYONE's hyper-aggressive in it. Faulting the characters for it feels to me a bit like faulting characters in a racing game for wanting to solve everything with racing.

 

EDIT: Really, these arguments are really sort of bizarre to me because it feels like everyone's coming from an alien world with alien versions of these games where context doesn't exist. Like, she didn't corner Sonic to make her marry him in SA2, she bantered a bit before rescuing him regardless. She wanted to beat him in Heroes, but as it turns out cutscenes exist to facilitate gameplay and EVERYONE wanted to beat everyone so we could have those bossfights.

Yet it feels it's only with Amy that people insist in not taking things like that in context, ignoring stuff like Espio wanting to steal Cheese instead of asking "is that your Chao, little girl, because we're rescuing Chao and if you just found that one that might be one of the Chao we're rescuing" but making sure every single little exaggerated-for-gameplay Amy moment or comedic short-tempered moment sticks around and is never forgotten, overshadowing everything else she was doing.

And now here's the result. She's been turned into Minnie Mouse but responsible. She spends Lost World just going "oh me oh my", she spends Forces and IDW doing leadership stuff, she's made into the bossy almost-"Karen" of the group in Sonic Boom for laughs. As usual, Sega overcorrecting things, and then patting themselves for it (you seen that Sega guy say how proud they were of how Amy now isn't a damsel in distress? Despite her not having been so for like 20 years?). But I can't help but be frustrated because their overcorrections are addressing complaints that by and large shouldn't exist in the first place.

Hope we can eventually get a fun energetic optimistic lovable Amy back.