Knuckles as Guardian of ME

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's not an "excuse", it's a (vague) plan for how to use him better.

That's not using him better, that's just sweeping him under the rug and hoping people don't notice that he's gone.

 

You use the character better by actually addressing the reasons he's difficult to use to begin with.

[pppp]

Just now, Kuzu said:

This isn't a tv series, its video game series. People like to play as Knuckles and wish to do so.

There's nothing complicated about this. It's like justifying cutting the roster in a fighting game for story related reasons. People who care less about the story are going to be pissed off because they can't use their favorite characters. That's exactly why fighting games never cut the roster unless its explicitly a reboot.

I get what you're saying, but we need to keep in mind that Sonic is still a video game series at the end of the day and isn't completely bound by the conventions of writing in a Television or comic series.

Dude, my TV example was just to help my point, that logic applies to all forms of storytelling.

Your fighting game example doesn't work, we're talking about the story aspect of the game. But fine I'll use video game examples:

You know why Solid Snake doesn't show up in MGS3,Peace Walker and MGS5 despite being the series most iconic character? Because it doesn't make sense for him to be there, and those games worked just fine without him.

You know why Nathan Drake didn't show up in Uncharted Lost Legacy despite being the most iconic character? Because he and his wife have their own thing going on now, they don't treasure hunt at random now, and having him there would take away what he was supposed to learn in Uncharted 4 from him, destroying his character development.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point, why can't Sonic games follow these basic guidelines as well? It seems to work well with other game franchises.

[Diogenes]

Jesus christ is there any answer I can give besides "every character all of the time!!!" that isn't going to be taken as an attack? It's not some assault on a character to not use them at literally every possible opportunity.

[Kuzu]

15 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Jesus christ is there any answer I can give besides "every character all of the time!!!" that isn't going to be taken as an attack? It's not some assault on a character to not use them at literally every possible opportunity.

I'm not taking it as an attack, but it's the truth. Not using Knuckles at all isn't solving anything, it's just putting him aside because you don't know what to do with him.

 

It "makes sense" but it's not a satisfying answer to someone who wants to play as him again after so long 

It's a temporary fix that doesn't solve the core issue with him.

[Blue Blood]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Knuckles is one of the few characters in the series to really have a clear personal goal beyond generic do-goodery. As difficult as it can be to work with it, I can't imagine that cutting it, ignoring it, or trivializing it will do the character any good. That doesn't mean that every game needs to focus on the emerald or the island to justify him showing up, I can buy "the world is in danger so I need to guard proactively" some of the time, but it shouldn't be the excuse all of the time. They need to figure out ways of working him into the story that flow properly from his character and not simply have him appear out of nowhere because he's expected to appear, even if that means he might not have a role in every game.

Agreed. And see Unleashed and Colours. Knuckles is my favourite character, so I was always low-key disappointed that he wasn't in Unleashed with a minor role like Tails and Amy were. It makes perfect sense that he's not in Unleashed or Colours either though, and it's for the best. Lost World and '06 bug me for the same reason; he's got absolutely no reason to be there in either case, and adds nothing to the plot. 

It would be nice if Sonic games had proper stories again, ones that actively involve the extended cast doing shit. Then the stories can be written to give the characters purpose. Riders ZG doesn't really explain what Knuckles is doing with Sonic and Tails in the first place, but later on in the plot he's pivotal in helping the uncover the secrets of the Arcs of the Cosmos and finding the Gigan Rocks. He's a treasure hunter and knows some things about ancient civilisations. There's plenty of material to tap into there. 

The Sonic cast is big and varied enough that the characters in each game could be cycled through as the plots and gameplay demand it. 

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, pppp said:

Dude, my TV example was just to help my point, that logic applies to all forms of storytelling.

Your fighting game example doesn't work, we're talking about the story aspect of the game. But fine I'll use video game examples:

You know why Solid Snake doesn't show up in MGS3,Peace Walker and MGS5 despite being the series most iconic character? Because it doesn't make sense for him to be there, and those games worked just fine without him.

You know why Nathan Drake didn't show up in Uncharted Lost Legacy despite being the most iconic character? Because he and his wife have their own thing going on now, they don't treasure hunt at random now, and having him there would take away what he was supposed to learn in Uncharted 4 from him, destroying his character development.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point, why can't Sonic games follow these basic guidelines as well? It seems to work well with other game franchises.

Because those examples are way more story driven than anything Sonic will ever attempt. 

Sonic is not, and never has been a series that is dictated by its narrative. There has been a bigger emphasis on narrative sure, but the gameplay remains as the series' main selling point.

Let's say that I don't give a shit about the story. I just like playing as Knuckles because I think he's cool and don't really care about his guardian role. What then?

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm not taking it as an attack, but it's the truth. Not using Knuckles at all isn't solving anything, it's just putting him aside because you don't know what to do with him.

It's a temporary fix that doesn't solve the core issue with him.

Not every character needs to be in every game. Not using Knuckles in every game is not, in itself, a solution, but I have never claimed it to be. Not using Knuckles in every game is one aspect of using him better, because it avoids diluting his character into a generic good guy and losing the impact of his actual motivations. And then when you do use him you give his motivations the proper care and attention they deserve.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Let's say that I don't give a shit about the story.

Then your concerns have nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Stick him in as a non-canon unlockable, whatever, problem solved.

[pppp]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Then your concerns have nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Stick him in as a non-canon unlockable, whatever, problem solved.

I second this.

[Wraith]

There are a couple of long term solutions for this that I've already talked about but in the short term it would be fun to just give the Master Emerald a babysitter. You could go with someone reliable like Chaos or make like a quirky side plot out of giving someone unreliable like the Chaotix the duty. Just make it something that's acknowledged and taken care of with a few quick pieces of dialogue. I don't really consider this a bothersome plot hole myself, but there's an opportunity here.

It's fair to not want to "dilute Knuckles's motivations" but I feel like the fact that Sonic is one of Knuckles's only friends and he'd probably want to help out with anything crazy going on anyway isn't really acknowledged very much by the series itself or in conversations like this. These characters have grown at least a little bit beyond their bios, and I think you could argue that Knuckles has possibly grown to the point where more than one thing motivates him to take action. There were plenty of reasons that Knuckles could want to get involved even in Unleashed or Lost World. 

[Kuzu]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Not every character needs to be in every game. Not using Knuckles in every game is not, in itself, a solution, but I have never claimed it to be. Not using Knuckles in every game is one aspect of using him better, because it avoids diluting his character into a generic good guy and losing the impact of his actual motivations. And then when you do use him you give his motivations the proper care and attention they deserve.

Then your concerns have nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Stick him in as a non-canon unlockable, whatever, problem solved.

I'm under the impression that we're talking about him actually being used and not merely just being absent. So forgive me if I misunderstood.

4 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

It's fair to not want to "dilute Knuckles's motivations" but I feel like the fact that Sonic is one of Knuckles's only friends and he'd probably want to help out with anything crazy going on anyway isn't really acknowledged very much by the series itself or in conversations like this. These characters have grown at least a little bit beyond their bios, and I think you could argue that Knuckles has possibly grown to the point where more than one thing motivates him to take action. There were plenty of reasons that Knuckles could want to get involved even in Unleashed or Lost World. 

This is something I feel that needs to be acknowledged more, because people seem to be under the impression that Knuckles isn't as close to Sonic as say, Tails or Amy, and as such should have no reason to get involved with Sonic unless he has to.

[Shadowlax]

Idea have knuckles have chaos guard the emerald but have knuckles be searching for ancient echidna artifact and ruins. Guarding them from thrives or ruin by going out to look. Combines his treasure hunting with the guardianship. Heck you can use it to set up stuff too maybe echidna ruins of different cultures have different predictive ruins about different characters things, ect.

 

 

[Wraith]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This is something I feel that needs to be acknowledged more, because people seem to be under the impression that Knuckles isn't as close to Sonic as say, Tails or Amy, and as such should have no reason to get involved with Sonic unless he has to.

He is more eager to be around Sonic and Tails post SA2, but it's mostly written off as a plothole/excuse to have him around because they didn't make the development explicit. I don't think it needs to be much deeper than "Knuckles becomes more open to the idea of having friends/seeing the world." with the Master Emerald being taken care of in any variety of ways. It's obvious that he likes being in the group, so why deny him?

 

[Dr. Mechano]

It may be too late to even attempt it at this point, but it could honestly be decent character development for Knuckles to learn to enjoy more in life than just his duties as the guardian. Like, maybe he finds someone that he trusts enough to guard the Master Emerald in his absence when he wants to go down to the world below and have fun/go on adventures. 

It's not Knuckles shirking his duties entirely, but rather learning to properly balance them with other aspects of his life that he learns to appreciate after befriending Sonic and the gang. 

This alone could be a more-than-satisfactory explanation for him being around as much as he is.

[Kuzu]

8 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

He is more eager to be around Sonic and Tails post SA2, but it's mostly written off as a plothole/excuse to have him around because they didn't make the development explicit. I don't think it needs to be much deeper than "Knuckles becomes more open to the idea of having friends/seeing the world." with the Master Emerald being taken care of in any variety of ways. It's obvious that he likes being in the group, so why deny him?

 

Like you said, the development isn't really explicit. You can't even really call it development because it's just something that kind of happens.

Unlike Shadow, who's entire story was fleshed out and was settled into the comfortable role as Sonic's antiheroic foil, Knuckles never really got that treatment. He's just integrated into the group after SA2 with no attention being called to it after they emphasized how important his guardian role. 

It's not consistent, which is probably why people have a hard time buying into it.

10 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

It may be too late to even attempt it at this point, but it could honestly be decent character development for Knuckles to learn to enjoy more in life than just his duties as the guardian. Like, maybe he finds someone that he trusts enough to guard the Master Emerald in his absence when he wants to go down to the world below and have fun/go on adventures. 

It's not Knuckles shirking his duties entirely, but rather learning to properly balance them with other aspects of his life that he learns to appreciate after befriending Sonic and the gang. 

This alone could be a more-than-satisfactory explanation for him being around as much as he is.

Yea, if they had the character settle into a better role post-SA2 after a fleshed out character arc, I don't think people would find it as jarring when he leaves.

[DabigRG]

My stance on it is honestly that of a healthy middleground: characters should absolutely be there when they're relevant or important, but when they're not, don't feel like they have to be there just cause. If they are, there should be a minor rationale for it, like being asked to lend a hand or attending a birthday party alongside other close friends or just being in the city because it's a hoverboard spinoff that nonverbally asks you to just fly with the fun of everything.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

This isn't a tv series, its video game series. People like to play as Knuckles and wish to do so.

I get what you're saying, but we need to keep in mind that Sonic is still a video game series at the end of the day and isn't completely bound by the conventions of writing in a Television or comic series.

Yeah, that's a critical thing that has an strange effect on the series and it's spinoffs.

The comics are generally just so much better than the games half the time not only because it uses even some of the lesser characters & material in fun or even cool ways, but mutually because it has the format sustain an evolving status quo, iconic locations, and most tellingly a rogues gallery of recurring villains with varied capabilities.

Quote

He hasn't been playable character or had a major role where he's utilized well at all recently, so this excuse isn't even really valid now.

Also true/fair.

[Wraith]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Like you said, the development isn't really explicit. You can't even really call it development because it's just something that kind of happens.

Unlike Shadow, who's entire story was fleshed out and was settled into the comfortable role as Sonic's antiheroic foil, Knuckles never really got that treatment. He's just integrated into the group after SA2 with no attention being called to it after they emphasized how important his guardian role. 

It's not consistent, which is probably why people have a hard time buying into it.

It's not really acknowledged in the main games, but in Advance 2 and 3 Sonic is more reluctant to take Knuckles along and Knuckles just kinda forces himself in anyway. 

Advance 2 is much more of the usual generic Knuckles tricks Eggman setup but in Advance 3 the big guy just wants to help but Sonic is beyond trusting him at this point. 

I like to consider this the connective tissue. Like he did a good job and Sonic lightened up or something.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

It's not really acknowledged in the main games, but in Advance 2 and 3 Sonic is more reluctant to take Knuckles along and Knuckles just kinda forces himself in anyway. 

Advance 2 is much more of the usual generic Knuckles tricks Eggman setup but in Advance 3 the big guy just wants to help but Sonic is beyond trusting him at this point. 

I like to consider this the connective tissue. Like he did a good job and Sonic lightened up

This honestly could have been a pretty good plot with the two of them bonding; Sonic thinks Knuckles is a liability because of his constant believing of Eggman and doesn't really trust him, so Knuckles has to kind of prove himself as an essential part of the team.

 

In any case, that's not really the issue now. He's an established part of the team more or less now. The real issue is that everything else about him has been all but ignored. So just like...emphasize his bond with the team and his guardian role more.

[Dr. Mechano]

I honestly think Mania utilized Knuckles super well, and found a nice balance between the two extremes?

Like, he does care about the Master Emerald and it ties into his story directly. But he's also a lot more relaxed, and even shown to be a bit of a goofball who tells exaggerated tales of his adventures to children:

I think it's really endearing.

Even little moments like these are how you keep Knuckles' ties to the Master Emerald relevant without making him so unwaveringly devoted to his duties that he can never get out or have fun away from it.

[DabigRG]

46 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Idea have knuckles have chaos guard the emerald but have knuckles be searching for ancient echidna artifact and ruins. Guarding them from thrives or ruin by going out to look. Combines his treasure hunting with the guardianship. Heck you can use it to set up stuff too maybe echidna ruins of different cultures have different predictive ruins about different characters things, ect.

 

 

I am shocked to do this at any point, even in Archie from what I recall. It might not have the exact intent, but the Echidnas have ruins across both worlds in addition to Angel Island itself.

35 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Like you said, the development isn't really explicit. You can't even really call it development because it's just something that kind of happens.

Unlike Shadow, who's entire story was fleshed out and was settled into the comfortable role as Sonic's antiheroic foil, Knuckles never really got that treatment. He's just integrated into the group after SA2 with no attention being called to it after they emphasized how important his guardian role. 

It's not consistent, which is probably why people have a hard time buying into it.

Yea, if they had the character settle into a better role post-SA2 after a fleshed out character arc, I don't think people would find it as jarring when he leaves.

I think part of that is just Shadow coming in and kinda redefining the series for a good while. 

[Kuzu]

Honestly, I feel the biggest issue is that Knuckles' personality isn't all that fleshed out.

We always talk what Knuckles should be, but never about who Knuckles is. What does he want? Where can he get it? When can do so? Why does he want it?

 

Like let's be real, who the fuck is Knuckles at this point?

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Honestly, I feel the biggest issue is that Knuckles' personality isn't all that fleshed out.

We always talk what Knuckles should be, but never about who Knuckles is. What does he want? Where can he get it? When can do so? Why does he want it?

 

Like let's be real, who the fuck is Knuckles at this point?

What the fuck are you talking about

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

I think part of that is just Shadow coming in and kinda redefining the series for a good while. 

Well yea, they actually fully fleshed Shadow out. They don't always use him well, but you know who Shadow is. There's no ambiguity with him at all.

There's a lot of ambiguity with Knuckles because the series can't even define his role in the series.

[Wraith]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well yea, they actually fully fleshed Shadow out. They don't always use him well, but you know who Shadow is. There's no ambiguity with him at all.

There's a lot of ambiguity with Knuckles because the series can't even define his role in the series.

You just say shit sometimes

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Wrapped in Black said:

What the fuck are you talking about

I'll try to explain as best as I can. But before Heroes, there wasn't much ambiguity about Knuckles and his place in the series. He was the guardian of the Master Emerald and a more duty focused foil to Sonic. 

After Heroes, that role just kind of went out of the window and he's just kind there. He has no real personal goal right now that's driving him to act or anything inherent in his personality that warrants his appearances.

Is he still a guardian? If not, then is he hanging out with Sonic because they're close friends? The character just has no real direction nowadays because he's been defined by his role as guardian for so long that once it stopped being relevant, he just kind of lingered. It's why they're just throwing him into random roles like resistance commander because they're trying to establish a new role for him.

But it doesn't really address the core issue of how ill defined Knuckles' personality is. Why is he a resistance commander? What about his personality makes him fir for the role?

That's what I was getting at.

1 minute ago, Wrapped in Black said:

You just say shit sometimes

See above.

[DabigRG]

44 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Honestly, I feel the biggest issue is that Knuckles' personality isn't all that fleshed out.

We always talk what Knuckles should be, but never about who Knuckles is. What does he want? Where can he get it? When can do so? Why does he want it?

 

Like let's be real, who the fuck is Knuckles at this point?

Where have you been?

Yeah, Knuckles' place as Guardian of the Master Emerald comes up quite a bit, but there are plenty of other discussions & arguments surrounding his actual characterization and how to use it properly.

41 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well yea, they actually fully fleshed Shadow out. They don't always use him well, but you know who Shadow is. There's no ambiguity with him at all.

There's a lot of ambiguity with Knuckles because the series can't even define his role in the series.

I'm specifically pointing out how Shadow coming into the spotlight coincided with SonicTeam stumbling and bumbling with Knuckles, partly due to the shared Goal Driven Rival with an Ancient Background aspects of their roles. 

Look at the timeline: Shadow having a complete arc was the eventual result of five years of games and once it did end, Knuckles' standing had been long distilled thanks in part to having his own character focus halted right after it began.

32 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It's why they're just throwing him into random roles like resistance commander because they're trying to establish a new role for him.

But it doesn't really address the core issue of how ill defined Knuckles' personality is. Why is he a resistance commander? What about his personality makes him fir for the role?

Pretty sure he was commander because he's the fourth most popular character after Sonic(who's presumed dead), Shadow(who's with the Villains), and Tails(who lost it).

From an in-universe standpoint, his stubbornness and eagerness to fight is stark contrast to Infinite's indulgence in spreading fear and hopeless, meaning he's the number one guy to advocate continuing the Resistance by setting an example. That he descends from a tribe of actual warriors is really cool bonus that the game of course never acknowledges among other things.