Knuckles as Guardian of ME

[Rusty Spy]

The problem with this question is it assumes Knuckles HAS to be a recurring character, when he really doesn't. Is it really that big a deal if Knuckles has to be a rarely appearing character? I mean, you don't see anybody looking for an excuse for Shadow or the Chaotix to hang out with Sonic all the time. Sonic, Tails, and maybe Amy sometimes is a good enough core cast.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Where have you been?

Yeah, Knuckles' place as Guardian of the Master Emerald comes up quite a bit, but there are plenty of other discussions & arguments surrounding his actual characterization and how to use it properly.

I'm specifically pointing out how Shadow coming into the spotlight coincided with SonicTeam stumbling and bumbling with Knuckles, partly due to the shared Goal Driven Rival with an Ancient Background aspects of their roles. 

Look at the timeline: Shadow having a complete arc was the eventual result of five years of games and once it did end, Knuckles' standing had been long distilled thanks in part to having his own character focus halted right after it began.

Pretty sure he was commander because he's the fourth most popular character after Sonic(who's presumed dead), Shadow(who's with the Villains), and Tails(who lost it).

From an in-universe standpoint, his stubbornness and eagerness to fight is stark contrast to Infinite's indulgence in spreading fear and hopeless, meaning he's the number one guy to advocate continuing the Resistance by setting an example. That he descends from a tribe of actual warriors is really cool bonus that the game of course never acknowledges among other things.

 

It's not really clear; assuming that Knuckles' character is meant to still be the introverted guardian, it doesn't make much sense for him to lead because he's a hermit. He's a fighter first and foremost.

If the game was about him developing into the role fine, but he never does.

Like you said, he had a solid goal at first and then they just kind of dropped it

7 minutes ago, Rusty Spy said:

The problem with this question is it assumes Knuckles HAS to be a recurring character, when he really doesn't. Is it really that big a deal if Knuckles has to be a rarely appearing character? I mean, you don't see anybody looking for an excuse for Shadow or the Chaotix to hang out with Sonic all the time. Sonic, Tails, and maybe Amy sometimes is a good enough core cast.

This assumption comes because of his iconic status. Like it or not, Sega promotes him as if he is a main character, which gives the expectations that he be treated like one. Sega knows how popular he is and use that to garner attention around him.

Amy isn't as popular, and as such, they're never going to give her top billing Knuckles or even Shadow.

[DabigRG]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It's not really clear; assuming that Knuckles' character is meant to still be the introverted guardian, it doesn't make much sense for him to lead because he's a hermit. He's a fighter first and foremost.

If the game was about him developing into the role fine, but he never does.

Like you said, he had a solid goal at first and then they just kind of dropped it

That's conflict and/or the fate of the world for you: it brings out talents, inclinations, or simply necessities that would've have been pivotal otherwise. 

Forces did at least lampshade how restraining and sometimes overly expectant the position can be, so that's a minor point, but ultimately Knuckles is otherwise yet another area where the game undersells what it was working with.

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This assumption comes because of his iconic status. Like it or not, Sega promotes him as if he is a main character, which gives the expectations that he be treated like one. Sega knows how popular he is and use that to garner attention around him.

Amy isn't as popular, and as such, they're never going to give her top billing Knuckles or even Shadow.

I think what people bring up with those two specifically is that there is more correlation and yes less expectation in having Amy be around compared to Knuckles, who while more interesting and capable actually has things that naturally hold him down a bit while also defining him.

Top billing is really just a shallow bonus at this point and it's something Knuckles generally only gets from a superficial standpoint since his debut, if we're being honest.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

That's conflict and/or the fate of the world for you: it brings out talents, inclinations, or simply necessities that would've have been pivotal otherwise. 

Forces did at least lampshade how restraining and sometimes overly expectant the position can be, so that's a minor point, but ultimately Knuckles is otherwise yet another area where the game undersells what it was working with.

Its like...they put these characters in these various scenarios but don't care about fleshing them out and then wonder why nobody cares about them.

1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

I think what people bring up with those two specifically is that there is more correlation and yes less expectation in having Amy be around compared to Knuckles, who while more interesting and capable actually has things that naturally hold him down a bit while also defining him.

Top billing is really just a shallow bonus at this point and it's something Knuckles generally only gets from a superficial standpoint since his debut, if we're being honest.

It is shallow, but that's how Sega rolls. I have no problem with Knuckles not being a recurring character, but they're never going to give Amy top billing over him in terms of merchandise.

 

The biggest problem is that Knuckles is so ingrained as a character, its difficult to imagine him NOT being a major character.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The biggest problem is that Knuckles is so ingrained as a character, its difficult to imagine him NOT being a major character.

I think the additional problem is like it or not - Knuckles has always been apart of the main trio, and has always brought up an important role that plays off the dynamic. Sonic is the outgoing, snarky, speedy hero, Tails is the flight, brains, and younger/more impressionable character who has to prove himself, and Knuckles is the brawn, serious, but also naive/dim fighter, and it's been like that since Sonic 3 & Knuckles since he was the last "big" playable debut in the Classic games. I can't remember a time where Knuckles wasn't considered the other main character alongside Sonic and Tails.

I think it's hard to imagine him not as a major character because Knuckles always feels like the role that's designed to round out the main trio. Sonic and Tails are best friends, while Sonic and Knuckles are friendly rivals, and both provide a competitive spark with each other. IMO - Amy never really was that, not for awhile at least - she was a damsel in CD, and didn't have a super tone of providence until she was playable in Adventure, but I don't think she was ever really considered her apart of the "core four" until way later in the series. I don't even think they really utilised it at all until Boom, frankly. 

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I think the additional problem is like it or not - Knuckles has always been apart of the main trio, and has always brought up an important role that plays off the dynamic. Sonic is the outgoing, snarky, speed, Tails is the flight, and brains, Knuckles is the brawn, and naive fighter, and it's been like that since Sonic 3 & Knuckles since he was the last "big" playable debut in the Classic games.

I think it's hard to imagine him not as a major character because Knuckles always feels like the role that's designed to round out the main trio. Sonic and Tails are best friends, while Sonic and Knuckles are friendly rivals, and both provide a competitive spark with each other. IMO - Amy never really was that, not for awhile at least - she was a damsel in CD, and didn't have a super tone of providence until she was playable in Adventure, but I don't think she was ever really considered her apart of the "core four" until way later in the series. I don't even think they really utilised it at all until Boom, frankly. 

Yea like, if they removed Knuckles  and replaced him with Amy, people would definitely flip their shit.

 

You need a way to modernize Knuckles current role and personality.

[Shadowlax]

The knuckles shadow thing is a good point. But I don't think it was just shadow a bunch of characters even less popular ones got a bunch of stuff after knuckles and they were very content leaving knuckles the way he was. I dont know what the reasoning was, maybe they felt he was complete? Maybe they never thought much of knuckles in the first place? And he was an excuse to use an aesthetic and his popularity was an after thought?

Dunno

 

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I am shocked to do this at any point, even in Archie from what I recall. It might not have the exact intent, but the Echidnas have ruins across both worlds in addition to Angel Island itself.

 

I feel like that's free realistate to not only expand sonic's world, knuckles and even other characters depending if they want to something prophetic or something of historical record. Like say ancient echidinas fought off the black arms before

 

[RadicalLaRuby]

Knuckles being forever tied to the Master Emerald will always be his thing. I do like how he's written in IDW at the moment, as far as taking his duty seriously.

 

As said before, there has to be a good balance with his character's usefulness to the plot and himself. Just throwing Knuckles in for the sake of it despite how iconic he is, does nothing for his character unless he has to gauge threat levels and risk leaving it from time to time when Sonic and friends really him.

 

On the flipside, just keeping him on the island forever or sometimes showing up will just be even more inconsistent, as how he was treated the last decade or so was just like any other character, inconsistent. 

 

If anything, regarding Knuckles at all, Sega wrote themselves into a corner, and judging by their recent writing talent who don't consist of Flynn, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[DabigRG]

46 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Its like...they put these characters in these various scenarios but don't care about fleshing them out and then wonder why nobody cares about them.

Yeah, almost.

Quote

It is shallow, but that's how Sega rolls. I have no problem with Knuckles not being a recurring character, but they're never going to give Amy top billing over him in terms of merchandise.

A little confused at what we're focusing on here. This was more about Knuckles' place in-universe rather than out, iirc.

Quote

The biggest problem is that Knuckles is so ingrained as a character, its difficult to imagine him NOT being a major character.

 

40 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I think the additional problem is like it or not - Knuckles has always been apart of the main trio, and has always brought up an important role that plays off the dynamic. Sonic is the outgoing, snarky, speedy hero, Tails is the flight, brains, and younger/more impressionable character who has to prove himself, and Knuckles is the brawn, serious, but also naive/dim fighter, and it's been like that since Sonic 3 & Knuckles since he was the last "big" playable debut in the Classic games. I can't remember a time where Knuckles wasn't considered the other main character alongside Sonic and Tails.

I think it's hard to imagine him not as a major character because Knuckles always feels like the role that's designed to round out the main trio. Sonic and Tails are best friends, while Sonic and Knuckles are friendly rivals, and both provide a competitive spark with each other.

 

Yeeeah, that is a huge factoid must be remembered when thinking about why things are the way they are.

I'm surprised I didn't write anything on this to this day(if I did, please correct me), but Knuckles really made a foundational splash for the series; I understand that his designer admitted that he never imagined he'd have staying power in the series, but that's the broth cooked from many good ingredients.

Sonic, Eggman, and to an extent lesser Tails(but not really Metal or especially Amy) were certainly major players who are so key to the series that the games try to maintain at least two of them in the very rare cases where the cast extremely reduced as well as the more common cutbacks it's had in the previous decade. But none of them really compare to Knuckles, who just immediately expanded on as well as complemented much of the bare basics of what the series was in its blood. So much so that as subsequent games started to introduce more characters and tell different stories, there's at the very least a 60% chance that what they entail with include Knuckles and/or the various depth of elements he brought in: Shadow and especially Blaze are the obvious descendants, but characters like Silver, Zavok, and even the Rogues also have a bit of Knuckle in them. 

By vague contrast, Amy was almost always something of a footnote and seldom contributes much of anything to the games.

40 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

IMO - Amy never really was that, not for awhile at least - she was a damsel in CD, and didn't have a super tone of providence until she was playable in Adventure, but I don't think she was ever really considered her apart of the "core four" until way later in the series.

Yeah, pretty much. It's a bit of shame since there evidently was some genuine interest and effort behind her from Adventure to Battle, but it ultimately didn't go very far. 

40 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I don't even think they really utilised it at all until Boom, frankly. 

And that honestly turned out to be only little more than half-baked buzz around the fact that they were doing it at all.

[Plumbers_Helper]

9 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

So is there any way to write stories about Knuckles without involving ME every single time? I have few solutions, but none of them perfect..

1) Just ignore the topic
obviously it doesn't' work well
2) Knuckles has (or rather "should be given") some magical way to instantly teleport home.
Convenient, but reeks of "deux ex machina"
3) He keeps it in his pocket(?), like during climax of SA2
That's the closest to logical solution, but still means Knuckles drags sacred treasure on dangerous adventures. And SA1 proved mobian pockets suck badly.
4) He has someone take over, maybe Chaos or only logical choice.
While in theory I do like idea that Chaos pops out to protect ME, he clearly didn't do it in the past (SA2). Besides, wouldn't the make Chaos real Guardian and Knuckles a part-time helper? And other candidate is too awesome to ever become canon.

Anyone has better ones?

I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned the official explanation yet, that Omochao has specially trained animals that guard the Master Emerald when Knuckles is gone.

[DabigRG]

41 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

The knuckles shadow thing is a good point. But I don't think it was just shadow a bunch of characters even less popular ones got a bunch of stuff after knuckles and they were very content leaving knuckles the way he was. I dont know what the reasoning was, maybe they felt he was complete?

Well, SEGA did basically have the series devolve and be defined by "The Next Big Thing." Maybe characters like Cream & the Chaotix were negligible enough to do their own thing on the side while Silver & Blaze were trying to be the next smash hits per serial escalation.

41 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Maybe they never thought much of knuckles in the first place? And he was an excuse to use an aesthetic and his popularity was an after thought?

Dunno

I suppose they did have him kinda brush over THREE flashbacks worth of echidna history and then promptly dropped the Echidnas as a major plot point once Shadow's death was revoked partway through Heroes' development.

41 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like that's free realistate to not only expand sonic's world, knuckles and even other characters depending if they want to something prophetic or something of historical record. Like say ancient echidinas fought off the black arms before

 

Yeah, seriously. Hell, Sonic Team/Iuzuka/SEGA/whoever seems to think nostalgia and fanservice is the way to go for the last decade.

Well there ya'll go--nostalgia and fanservice that actually does and adds something.

18 minutes ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned the official explanation yet, that Omochao has specially trained animals that guard the Master Emerald when Knuckles is gone.

I spent a solid half a minute laughing at this--thank goodness for quarantine.

At least they have Lava Mountain in the background, I guess.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Wow, half people wants Knuckles gone from main cast, other half wants him to basically ditch his job. Fascinating.

"Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

Too obscure? I should have went with Spider-man and Green Goblin on bridge scene :/

[Kuzu]

I don't think it's really that hard to get Knuckles right. Sega just doesn't care enough to do it properly.

 

Like, all it requires is just some level of care.

[RadicalLaRuby]

1 hour ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned the official explanation yet, that Omochao has specially trained animals that guard the Master Emerald when Knuckles is gone.

As odd and silly as this is, I'm somewhat chill with this scenario.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 hours ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned the official explanation yet, that Omochao has specially trained animals that guard the Master Emerald when Knuckles is gone.

Oh.

Well, there you go. There's a canon explanation already, so no need to fret about it anymore. I'll happily accept this as the justification.

Just weird that it was casually dropped in a mobile game of all things.

[thumbs13]

3 hours ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned the official explanation yet, that Omochao has specially trained animals that guard the Master Emerald when Knuckles is gone.

This is better than most of my theories why. This is from runners, right?

[Plumbers_Helper]

55 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

This is better than most of my theories why. This is from runners, right?

Yes, the same game also explains why the Wisps are still on Sonic's World after they went home in Colors.

 

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I don't think it's really that hard to get Knuckles right. Sega just doesn't care enough to do it properly.

 

Like, all it requires is just some level of care.

Hello comics.

But yes, Sega needs to start caring AND showing how much they're caring about the characters again.

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Oh.

Well, there you go. There's a canon explanation already, so no need to fret about it anymore. I'll happily accept this as the justification.

Just weird that it was casually dropped in a mobile game of all things.

Hello Wisps. You like our world so much some of you wanna stay? Cool!

[Shadowlax]

11 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Well, SEGA did basically have the series devolve and be defined by "The Next Big Thing." Maybe characters like Cream & the Chaotix were negligible enough to do their own thing on the side while Silver & Blaze were trying to be the next smash hits per serial escalation.

You got it, and knuckles kind of just got left behind because they kind of only really viewed him as angry punch guy.

11 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I suppose they did have him kinda brush over THREE flashbacks worth of echidna history and then promptly dropped the Echidnas as a major plot point once Shadow's death was revoked partway through Heroes' development.

The whole series feels like it regrets ever making knuckles the guardian of anything because he despite giving a shit, seemingly doesn't really give a shit and is often not doing. If sonic ever gets rebooted, The M.E doesn't exist

11 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Yeah, seriously. Hell, Sonic Team/Iuzuka/SEGA/whoever seems to think nostalgia and fanservice is the way to go for the last decade.

Well there ya'll go--nostalgia and fanservice that actually does and adds something.

The issue with nostalgia is that it tends to be who the nostalgia is directed towards getting to decide nostalgia. And knuckles, much like tails has a very particular problem.

 

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I don't think it's really that hard to get Knuckles right. Sega just doesn't care enough to do it properly.

And it goes a long with this. It isn't that they don't care to do it properly. For them and a lot of the fanbase, this IS properly. Knuckles is a classic character and for better or for worse a lot of the fanbase view classic characters as needing to be simple even in new context. Sonic is fast and cool, tails is cute and machine guy, knuckles punches is angry. And is upsetting as it is that the characters get mushed into that simple box, classic characters that exists in modern context have to ( at least sega things they do ) maintain that sort of simplicity so they don't throw a bunch of people off. There's a bunch of the fanbase that thinks this IS properly. And sega probably things its properly or properly enough for them to make money

Compare to to say shadow, who was characterized poorly in a spin off comic book and seemingly got so much vitriol sega may have just backed off. Sonic, Tails and Knuckles exists in this dual context and sega feels like they need to appeal to two different groups everytime they are around and what that does is just limit characterization to an extreme degree.

9 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Just weird that it was casually dropped in a mobile game of all things.

There was a lot of weird stuff in that game. It has the best interaction between shadow and eggman in it, its silly and jovial compared to the usual " imma kill you eggman"

 

[Kuzu]

I have never seen anyone praise how Tails or Knuckles are currently written at all, and it's the exact opposite with Tails. So I don't know where you're getting the idea that people are ok with how they are.

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

You got it, and knuckles kind of just got left behind because they kind of only really viewed him as angry punch guy.

The whole series feels like it regrets ever making knuckles the guardian of anything because he despite giving a shit, seemingly doesn't really give a shit and is often not doing. If sonic ever gets rebooted, The M.E doesn't exist

Sadly, somewhat accurate. 

Funnily enough, that kinda makes my point about his post generations characterization: if they want him to be this cocky fratboy who boasts being focused enough to do things faster, then put him in a game where he can bring that to the controller and/or ongoing interactions.

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

The issue with nostalgia is that it tends to be who the nostalgia is directed towards getting to decide nostalgia. And knuckles, much like tails has a very particular problem.

 

And it goes a long with this. It isn't that they don't care to do it properly. For them and a lot of the fanbase, this IS properly. Knuckles is a classic character and for better or for worse a lot of the fanbase view classic characters as needing to be simple even in new context. Sonic is fast and cool, tails is cute and machine guy, knuckles punches is angry. And is upsetting as it is that the characters get mushed into that simple box, classic characters that exists in modern context have to ( at least sega things they do ) maintain that sort of simplicity so they don't throw a bunch of people off. There's a bunch of the fanbase that thinks this IS properly. And sega probably things its properly or properly enough for them to make money

Oh?

That makes some sense, given everyone else plus the five + who got embargoed in the divide. The thing is Knuckles isn't quite like everyone else and that's why there's such passion(hm) in talking about him in comparison.

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Compare to to say shadow, who was characterized poorly in a spin off comic book and seemingly got so much vitriol sega may have just backed off. Sonic, Tails and Knuckles exists in this dual context and sega feels like they need to appeal to two different groups everytime they are around and what that does is just limit characterization to an extreme degree.

.

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

There was a lot of weird stuff in that game. It has the best interaction between shadow and eggman in it, its silly and jovial compared to the usual " imma kill you eggman"

 

Oh really?

Er, was it ever like that before though?

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I have never seen anyone praise how Tails or Knuckles are currently written at all, and it's the exact opposite with Tails. So I don't know where you're getting the idea that people are ok with how they are.

I think he's referring to how SonicTeam responds to kids.

[Dr. Mechano]

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

There was a lot of weird stuff in that game. It has the best interaction between shadow and eggman in it, its silly and jovial compared to the usual " imma kill you eggman"

Yeah, Shadow and Eggman's relationship is weird. Sometimes Shadow is outright homicidal toward Eggman, and other times he's way more deferential and respectful to Eggman than even the standard heroes are, like in the Rivals games.

[Wraith]

20 hours ago, Rusty Spy said:

The problem with this question is it assumes Knuckles HAS to be a recurring character, when he really doesn't. Is it really that big a deal if Knuckles has to be a rarely appearing character? I mean, you don't see anybody looking for an excuse for Shadow or the Chaotix to hang out with Sonic all the time. Sonic, Tails, and maybe Amy sometimes is a good enough core cast.

It's unrealistic to tone down Knuckles's role at this point. I'm not one to hold onto tradition for tradition's sake but a lot of people just genuinely like seeing him. Instead of ruining that for the sake of preserving the lore it always made more sense to me to tweak his relationship with the master emerald more so he can serve the role of rounding out the trio better. 

[Kuzu]

Kids liked Tails and Knuckles regardless of how simple they've been portrayed, so Sega insisting on keeping them as they are now just feels like pure apathy to me. They just don't care, because they know kids will love them regardless of how they're portrayed with only the Older fans making a stink.

[Plumbers_Helper]

48 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Kids liked Tails and Knuckles regardless of how simple they've been portrayed, so Sega insisting on keeping them as they are now just feels like pure apathy to me. They just don't care, because they know kids will love them regardless of how they're portrayed with only the Older fans making a stink.

I don't think that's entirely true, even my niece who's age isn't even in the double digits yet was shouting at the TV for Tails to do something in Sonic Forces. She was even the one to bring up that Tails fought Chaos before.