Knuckles as Guardian of ME

[Ryannumber1gamer]

29 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Its not brought up all of the time because its usually not important to the story that the game is trying to tell; in Adventure, the Emerald is explicitly tied into the plot surrounding Chaos, while in Adventure 2, it's presence is more incidental until the last story. 

Its the same thing with the Chaos Emeralds recently; they've pretty much stopped being at the center of the conflicts, because they're not important to the stories the games are doing. 

But the lack of the Master Emerald's mention is an explicit black mark on Knuckles` character in particular since he is it's guardian. So if the ME doesn't exist, Knuckles isn't doing much of anything. 

I'm not asking for it to be apart of the conflict in every game, but the point I'm making is in the current situation - Knuckles' character having a black mark on him is two fold - because the Master Emerald is just largely forgotten anyways, even in the games where it makes too much sense to include it (Forces especially - like the Master Emerald could've easily been utilised in providing energy to the second Death Egg or something, which would give Knuckles a reason to be concerned with the conflict), and removing Knuckles' agency as a character, without explaining it. Even the alternative is fairly simple, and even was apart of the original introduction of the island - where Knuckles had it booby-trapped top to bottom to deal with invaders.

Even that latter option, Sonic 3 and Knuckles introduced the idea that Angel Island was heavily booby-trapped and filled with various sneaky tricks that Knuckles had set up to deal with invaders, and he'd been using special passages to get around the island far quicker, and more easily. But again, this general idea has long since been forgotten, even by Adventure, where Angel Island consisted of simply the Master Emerald and nothing else. 

That's really my key issue here - if there was at least a kind of explanation for the ME being safe while Knuckles was gone, it'd work fine - because it's not Knuckles abandoning his duties, as much as it's him being free to do more, since the island is now safe, more or less. But ignoring and pretending it's non-existent is a worse issue, and essentially cuts off apart of Knuckles' character. Above all else, one of the positive traits Knuckles is meant to have as a character is his strong sense of duty, especially because of his title as Guardian, and to me, removing it just reduces his character further than it's been reduced already in previous years.

22 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Is it? Because no one treats it like it.

Like literally shadow's alien dad, who has been to the planet before who could have easily snatched it up forgoes doing that entirely just to get the chaos emeralds. And it isn't just black doom, multiple villian's foregoe even going for the thing because its largely not worth it, not because of knuckles because its just in universe it seems more powerful to have the chaos emeralds than the M.E the universe doesn't really give it due importance. And all its important lore bits largely revolve around echidna lore in the past rather than any current relevance.

Bad writing in the past games doesn't excuse this. That's largely key to the problem, because villains pretend it doesn't exist, even though it is so powerful. 

22 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Eggman in the last 3d game has a comic where explains as to why he does not give a shit about the M.E.

No, this is completely incorrect. It isn't that Eggman doesn't give a shit about the Master Emerald, especially because it's not powerful - it's because he thinks he doesn't need it, or even the Chaos Emeralds, because the Phantom Ruby's power of illusion trumps them. If you take a look at the direct page:

He says he doesn't need to bother trying to go through the effort of stealing the Master Emerald, because the power of the Phantom Ruby, and it's illusions are already more than enough for his purposes, which was largely taking out Sonic. I still think Eggman could've been using the ME for something, like powering the Death Egg, ala S3&K, or something - but the explanation here makes enough sense - Eggman is so utterly cocky with the Ruby's powerful that he believes he ultimately doesn't require the ME or Chaos Emeralds. That doesn't make them irrelevant, or any less powerful, it just means the Ruby suits Eggman's plan better, and he already has it without any additional trouble dealing with Knuckles.

The problem here is what I said above - the prequel comics mean nothing to Forces' plot however, because nothing from the comics gets remotely mentioned in the game, likely due to how confused the plot was already, and how many rewrites had occurred, key of which being Infinite's shifting plot between being the commander of Jackal Squad, and being an artificially created being. The prequels come off more as a quick band-aid from Ian Flynn trying to fix up the plot problems of Forces, instead of being easily accessible and explained in the game itself.

22 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

The M.E ain't important. You could literally destroy the M.E right now and nothing would happen to the world besides angel island would be in the sea. Would i love for the M.E and echidina lore to be more important? Sure , is it though, in retrospect not really no. The only time it gets to be important is in the comics really.

The Master Emerald literally trumps the Chaos Emeralds in power, and is enough to easily empower large machines with ease - including the rebuilt Death Egg. The fact that the ME itself is constantly misused in the games doesn't deem it unimportant, it just means that it keeps getting under-utilised in the series. Destroying the ME might drop Angel Island into the ocean, sure - but stealing and using it's power has far more of a knock-on effect. There's a reason that it's the centre of Eggman's plan in S3&K, because it's the most powerful relic on Sonic's world. The fact that it's been under the effect of misusing and bad writing since Adventure 1 doesn't excuse that fact.

The problem with the Master Emerald is a very easy one to nail down - you tied a character to it, a character who's purpose is protecting this insanely powerful relic from those who would misuse it's power, and then due to years of bad writing, you forget about it entirely. The reason why it gets to be important to the comics is because Ian Flynn is a competent writer who knows how to utilise elements of the lore far better than SEGA does. There's a reason Knuckles is generally regarded as far better in the comics than he is in the games.

[Wraith]

Sonic is largely an interactive experience. He's not effective if he's hardly putting any pressure on the player. 

Even if we were to give them the benefit of the doubt there and say that Knuckles was intended to be a hypercompetent thorn in the player's side, we don't go back to angel island after that. Knuckles is largely out of his element in the surface world and behaves accordingly(like an idiot). He is shortsighted and prone to making serious mistakes. Him being overly charitable is him being a shortsighted idiot. Especially since this supposed overly charitable and gullible nature always seems to start and stop at fucking Dr. Eggman. He's never offered Sonic the same courtesy.  

He's dumb. If you want, we can put it nicely and say he's gullible, but that doesn't change the fact that he's going to be prone to making mistakes. 

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Yeah. Plus, Generations outright says "his belief in the goodness of others sometimes makes him gullible."

Eggman tricking him in Triple Trouble and Advance 2, despite what happened in 3&K, probably wasn't Knuckles being dumb. It was Knuckles being overly charitable toward Eggman, thinking "Well, maybe he has really turned over a new leaf this time." Despite his reputation as a hothead, Knuckles is a kind, forgiving soul who really wants to believe that everyone can change.

(Granted, him believing Eggman's good now usually comes with also believing Sonic is bad now, so it's not a perfectly consistent worldview.)

And it's the repetition of that plot point of Eggman tricking Knuckles into believing Sonic is the bad guy is why people started to say that he was stupid; it was fine the first because of the social skill explanation. But when they kept repeating it, that excuse went right out of the window and the conclusion that was made was that Knuckles was a fucking idiot. 

I doubt it was ST's intention to make Knuckles seem foolish; they probably just wanted an excuse for Sonic & Knuckles to fight, but couldn't be bothered to come up with a reasonable explanation, so they just fell back on that plot point.  Knuckles looking an idiot was just an unfortunate consequence of that and that's where he is today as a result. 

[Shadowlax]

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The Master Emerald literally trumps the Chaos Emeralds in power, and is enough to easily empower large machines with ease - including the rebuilt Death Egg. The fact that the ME itself is constantly misused in the games doesn't deem it unimportant, it just means that it keeps getting under-utilised in the series.

Show don't tell. And what they have shown is that isn't important or powerful enough to warrant caring about.

And that's kind of the problem

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

Sonic is largely an interactive experience. He's not effective if he's hardly putting any pressure on the player. 

Even if we were to give them the benefit of the doubt there and say that Knuckles was intended to be a hypercompetent thorn in the player's side, we don't go back to angel island after that. Knuckles is largely out of his element in the surface world and behaves accordingly(like an idiot). He is shortsighted and prone to making serious mistakes. Him being overly charitable is him being a shortsighted idiot. Especially since this supposed overly charitable and gullible nature always seems to start and stop at fucking Dr. Eggman. He's never offered Sonic the same courtesy.  

He's dumb. If you want, we can put it nicely and say he's gullible, but that doesn't change the fact that he's going to be prone to making mistakes. 

Well let me ask you, do you think Knuckles became so popular because people like that he's stupid? If that was the case, then why did people make such a big deal out of him being stupid later on, and not from like...his debut. I'm not saying that you can't call him stupid, but I don't think anyone ever saw him that way and I don't think he would be as popular if that was the case. I really don't  get the impression that he was supposed to be a stupid meathead. 

Like, he had comical MOMENTS, but they weren't defining traits of his character. 

[Wraith]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And it's the repetition of that plot point of Eggman tricking Knuckles into believing Sonic is the bad guy is why people started to say that he was stupid; it was fine the first because of the social skill explanation. But when they kept repeating it, that excuse went right out of the window and the conclusion that was made was that Knuckles was a fucking idiot. 

I doubt it was ST's intention to make Knuckles seem foolish; they probably just wanted an excuse for Sonic & Knuckles to fight, but couldn't be bothered to come up with a reasonable explanation, so they just fell back on that plot point.  Knuckles looking an idiot was just an unfortunate consequence of that and that's where he is today as a result. 

So let me get this straight before I tap out:

Sonic team firmly establishes Knuckles's intelligence in his second major appearance, with obvious hints to this being the case in his very first one. They, the creators of Knuckles, hammer this point home over and over again in subsequent games and media based on those games. 

But he's not actually dumb. He only looks stupid because of circumstance. They just don't get their own character. That's what you're saying?

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

So let me get this straight before I tap out:

Sonic team firmly establishes Knuckles's intelligence in his second major appearance, with obvious hints to this being the case in his very first one. They, the creators of Knuckles, hammer this point home over and over again in subsequent games and media based on those games. 

But he's not actually dumb. He only looks stupid because of circumstance. They just don't get their own character. That's what you're saying?

Look, I'm not going to tell you how you should view or interpret these characters. If you think Knuckles was always meant to be stupid and that was ST's intention from the beginning, fine. I'm not going to try and change your mind on that. 

But you don't think it's weird how so many people seem to have a problem with that? If Knuckles was always meant to be stupid, if it's such an integral part of his character, then why does it bother so many of his fans to see him that way? I don't think people would be making videos like these if that was the case. 

 

 

If Knuckles was always meant to be stupid, if he was always meant to be a comical foil to Sonic who was never meant to be taken seriously, then you're basically saying that most of his fanbase have in fact, been wrong about the character since 1994. And I'm not going to say that you're wrong for thinking that way, because you're entitled to your opinions. But I feel there's some severe cognitive dissonance going on with how most people view this character.

[Dr. Mechano]

6 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

So let me get this straight before I tap out:

Sonic team firmly establishes Knuckles's intelligence in his second major appearance, with obvious hints to this being the case in his very first one. They, the creators of Knuckles, hammer this point home over and over again in subsequent games and media based on those games. 

But he's not actually dumb. He only looks stupid because of circumstance. They just don't get their own character. That's what you're saying?

Ehh. I think Knuckles is gullible, but not stupid. It's a fine line.

I mean, Knuckles is smart enough to operate mechanical traps on Angel Island and even - with presumably little-to-no-training - pilot Eggman's machines in both Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic Advance 2. I think Knuckles is gullible and shortsighted, but this doesn't really demonstrate a lack of overall intelligence.

Like, there's a pretty wide distinction between Knuckles being overly trusting in the games, versus not being able to read in Sonic Boom.

[Shadowlax]

12 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

So let me get this straight before I tap out:

Sonic team firmly establishes Knuckles's intelligence in his second major appearance, with obvious hints to this being the case in his very first one. They, the creators of Knuckles, hammer this point home over and over again in subsequent games and media based on those games. 

But he's not actually dumb. He only looks stupid because of circumstance. They just don't get their own character. That's what you're saying?

Death of the author.

Sometimes a read of a character is just better and so pervasive in how people ingest media that a collective decides that what may be being communicated may not matter and choose to suggest that the collective take is better.

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

 

If Knuckles was always meant to be stupid, if he was always meant to be a comical foil to Sonic who was never meant to be taken seriously, then you're basically saying that most of his fanbase have in fact, been wrong about the character since 1994. And I'm not going to say that you're wrong for thinking that way, because you're entitled to your opinions. But I feel there's some severe cognitive dissonance going on with how most people view this character.

To be fair I have been in fanbases where most people didn't get a thing. Or just have seen media where large swaths of people didn't get it ( Rick Sanchez, Tyler Durden, The joker, ect ect) so the idea of people in masse just being wrong about something isn't unsual.

However I think its less that if that's the case and more so " death of the author " . The collective fanbase like with a lot of things in sonic may have just had a much better take that sonic team ever had with the character and have been rolling with it.

 

All that said I agree with the notion that knuckles kind of got dumbed down over time and there while being hot headed is a clear distinction in his portrayals before sonic heroes and after sonic heroes going forward into the future in how he was slowly dumbed down more and more as time went on.

[Wraith]

 

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If Knuckles was always meant to be stupid, if he was always meant to be a comical foil to Sonic who was never meant to be taken seriously, then you're basically saying that most of his fanbase have in fact, been wrong about the character since 1994. 

Yes. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Ehh. I think Knuckles is gullible, but not stupid. It's a fine line.

I mean, Knuckles is smart enough to operate mechanical traps on Angel Island and even - with presumably little-to-no-training - pilot Eggman's machines in both Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic Advance 2. I think Knuckles is gullible and shortsighted, but this doesn't really demonstrate a lack of overall intelligence.

Like, there's a pretty wide distinction between Knuckles being overly trusting in the games, versus not being able to read in Sonic Boom.

I mean that's getting into semantics. I can get more specific and say that being shortsighted and prone to poor judgement are kinda the crux of his character. That, to me, would make a character stupid. Especially in Knuckles's case where he made the same mistakes over and over again.

I would understand more if he turned Boom Knuckles in the main games, but I don't think they really go that far at any point. It's a pretty consistent level of ignorance. He's gotten a bit sharper over time if you want to take examples like Zero Gravity into account. 

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Wrapped in Black said:

 

Yes. 
 

Welp, nothing else to talk about then; have a good day. 

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

To be fair I have been in fanbases where most people didn't get a thing. Or just have seen media where large swaths of people didn't get it ( Rick Sanchez, Tyler Durden, The joker, ect ect) so the idea of people in masse just being wrong about something isn't unsual.

However I think its less that if that's the case and more so " death of the author " . The collective fanbase like with a lot of things in sonic may have just had a much better take that sonic team ever had with the character and have been rolling with it.

 

All that said I agree with the notion that knuckles kind of got dumbed down over time and there while being hot headed is a clear distinction in his portrayals before sonic heroes and after sonic heroes going forward into the future in how he was slowly dumbed down more and more as time went on.

I suppose the comics might have been an influencing factor here given Knuckles` prominence in them. 

[Wraith]

13 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Death of the author.

Sometimes a read of a character is just better and so pervasive in how people ingest media that a collective decides that what may be being communicated may not matter and choose to suggest that the collective take is better.

 

I don't agree with that and tend to prefer Knuckles when he's more flawed anyway. 

[Kuzu]

Given how nobody but older fans really take his character seriously anymore, they may as well just go all in with his stupidity. No sense in acting like there's any more pretense. 

[Shadowlax]

14 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

I don't agree with that and tend to prefer Knuckles when he's more flawed anyway. 

I don't think flawed means for saking everything.

Like an issue happened with shadow where folks were upset to the level in which he was, and where his focus was rather than the flaws of the characters. These things can be nuanced, for a series about 3 foot 3 talking animals anyway

[Dr. Mechano]

16 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Given how nobody but older fans really take his character seriously anymore, they may as well just go all in with his stupidity. No sense in acting like there's any more pretense. 

I mean, Forces tried to give Knuckles a more serious role, but it was kinda... totally unfit for the character? Like, Knuckles is a lot of things, but "military commander" doesn't fit him at all.

I appreciate the attempt, but I feel like it was super misguided, and kind of demonstrates how the current writers really don't know what to do with this character.

[thumbs13]

20 minutes ago, Wrapped in Black said:

I don't agree with that and tend to prefer Knuckles when he's more flawed anyway. 

Knuckles is flawed in all his non-Heroes appearances, it just varies on how much. Going from "accidentally fought Sonic" to "accidentally got his troops killed" is a bit of a stretch even for people who do think Knuckles was always dumb.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean, Forces tried to give Knuckles a more serious role, but it was kinda... totally unfit for the character? Like, Knuckles is a lot of things, but "military commander" doesn't fit him at all.

I appreciate the attempt, but I feel like it was super misguided, and kind of demonstrates how the current writers really don't know what to do with this character.

To be fair. Forces proves it has no idea what to do with anyone.

That includes sonic.

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

Whoa boy. Can we just agree that Knuckles was not meant to be a joke? Stupid, maaaaaybe, but not a joke?

I mean, SA1 created Big the Cat to fill that specific niche. If they considered Knuckles a hilarious idiot, they wouldn't make new one.

 

Back to topic of this... topic. I've been thinking: how about Knuckles just stops being a Guardian? Like, officially stops.

But what about ME?
For starters someone else could take over (Chaos for example). Or better yet, let's break.... drain it's power....ugh, somehow destroy it for good.  I agree with people who say Master Emerald just isn't convenient for the franchise. 7 Emeralds are THE macguffins of the series , so larger master-ier rock with similar powers is just confusing. It's main goal is enrich Knuckles. But if it harming him, let's ditch it.  Just give it a good send-off. Make epic game that ends with Knuckles sacrificing ME to save multiverse or something like this.

But Knuckles needs to be a Guardian. He always was, always must be.
Harley Quinn was created before Knuckles and she was always "Joker Girlfriend". Now she broke up with him in comics, games, cartoons, movies and probably manga. if exists. Carol Danvers was always "Miss" Marvel. Ganondorf was always a pig. Beast was "always" without blue hair.
Knuckles can change, just like them. And his past won't be erased. Like Metal Sonic in Heroes or Shadow Vs Mephiles it will stay there as iconic part of the character.

Well, who is Knuckles without Master Emerald to protect? Dumb Muscle? Sidekick nr 2? Pointless fanservice?
Treasure hunter. Let's FINALLY do something about that aspect of him. Sometimes he'll look for echidna-related stuff, sometimes for whatever is convenient for game's plot (treasure of Lost Hex, Gaia Temples, relics of Solaris. It writes itself). Being basically Indiana Jones will make him cool and much easier to implement in any game. Maybe we can get that awesome hat of his.
And the best part? His rivalry/romance with Rouge wouldn't be just preserved, but down right rejuvenated. They can race for the same treasure. She can steal gem from him and actually keep it (something she couldn't do with ME).

[Wraith]

6 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Whoa boy. Can we just agree that Knuckles was not meant to be a joke? Stupid, maaaaaybe, but not a joke?

I mean, SA1 created Big the Cat to fill that specific niche. If they considered Knuckles a hilarious idiot, they wouldn't make new one.

 

 

Not allowing Knuckles the flexibility to play jokey roles sometimes isn't cool with me either. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Wrapped in Black said:

Not allowing Knuckles the flexibility to play jokey roles sometimes isn't cool with me either. 

character in jokey role

character that is a joke

Knuckles I laugh WITH

Knuckles I laugh AT

(well, I don't laugh here, but you get the idea.)

Difference can be subtle but it's there.

[knuckles20]

2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean, Forces tried to give Knuckles a more serious role, but it was kinda... totally unfit for the character? Like, Knuckles is a lot of things, but "military commander" doesn't fit him at all.

I appreciate the attempt, but I feel like it was super misguided, and kind of demonstrates how the current writers really don't know what to do with this character.

Knuckles leading the resistance in Forces was one of the few things that I was ok  with because who else should’ve gonna step up after Sonic got captured by Eggman?

Tails couldn’t do jack without a Sonic to hold his hand. Amy would’ve gotten flak from the Sally Acorn fandom based on her mixed reception in the IDW comics. While Shadow can work with others as shown with his time with Team Dark his preference to keep to himself would be difficult for those who weren’t already familiar with him.

 

[DabigRG]

9 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Yeah some of the issues with these characterization changes is the reason or part of the reason some of these characters resonated with the audience is their ability to be in their shoes and to see their perspective. You want to make knuckles a way, show us what that means.

Pretty much.

Hell, compare how people can feel about almost any playable character vs. the ones you generally don't. T

he levels of appreciation and even acceptance tend to veer towards the former a lot of the time.

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I mean, I don't think its like that with anyone. Here's the deal. I don't think sega's in the right or justified on this one. I don't think the people who desire these characters to be simple whether its classic fans or children care if those specific classic characters get more complicated. The classic fans, problably ain't too interested in the 3d brand in the first place, and kids like characters getting more depth. I just get sega's reasoning, they have them away because they perceive it will make these characters stand in a better light and sell the most shit. I don't think that's accurate and they are limiting themselves, i'm just explaining the motivation.

Ah.

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Nah like shadow and egg's mans relationship is either shadow and eggman using eachother, or shadow trying to kill him.

This is interesting and weird because he treats him like a non threat and its justified. In that mobile game, shadow blows up a death egg by himself. Shadow is treated like a really powerful dude, and legit just treats eggman like a weird uncle who keeps bothering his friends and that's a pretty fun dynamic. It in the entirety of the series is one of the first few things that shadow talks about that makes him feel immortal. He genuinely does not care and is tired of eggman's shit but he doesn't view him in that game as much of a threat as the others because he's so strong he doesn't care.

Okay, I was getting ready to say, I recall a lot more of the former.

Hell, Eggman returns the favor in 06.

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I mean they care, but them caring leads them here. That isn't to say there are characters they don't really care about. But they care about Sonic, Tails, knuckles, amy , eggman , shadow and metal sonic a lot. And thier bad decisions often don't come from a place of uncaring but caring too much about these characters meeting a vision. So I guess I mean they care, mostly in a capitalistic sense, which makes sense because corporation.

Kinda raise an eyebrow at Metal Sonic, but yeah.

8 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

I feel like Tails is one of those characters where it's way easier to tell that he's being used wrong, though. People will be like Knuckles was always dumb/Shadow was always a jerk, but nobody will defend New Tails on any grounds ever. Sure, people like Tails, but that makes it hurt more when we get things like Forces.

That makes sense: Knuckles and Shadow were big enough that they're handling and/or mishandling strikes more of a chord, but Tails has been so complacent and easy to have around for so long that when Pontac & Graff as well as the 06 guy tried to have him be more impactful, the one chord it reliably struck was a bad one.

8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

 

People actually hated how dumb Knuckles was when they first started doing it back in the mid 2000's; it was only recently that people just up and decided that he was always dumb and that's what he should be. Knuckles has been mischaracterized for so long, people now think his new persona is how he always was retroactively. 

It's a similar case with Shadow, where the popular opinion about the character becomes mistaken for the official version.

Pretty much.

What's funny is that Knuckles in the games has actually ceased to be dumb since Colors, while Shadow being some degree of prick since Boom feels like a weird Tails situation.

8 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Eh, I actually think Boom Eggman is way more endearing than his game counterpart, and about ties with Sonic X for my favorite depiction of the character. They made him more of a sympathetic figure with plenty of genuine good points, whereas I always felt like game Eggman's nicer qualities were always murkier and more ambiguous.

Granted, I fully understand how - for many people - this is a minus rather than a plus. Depends on what you want out of Eggman.

 

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With Knuckles in particular, I feel like adapting aspects of his Boom personality - but significantly dialed back - wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Again, see Mania's "Knuckles and Knuckles" ending; I think it captures Knuckles' goofy side, as kind of a ham who exaggerates his own feats, but not to the point where he's completely comic relief. It's all about moderation; Let Knuckles chuckle, just not constantly. 

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

 

I don't have much issue with Knuckles being comic relief, so much that being comic relief tends to come at the expense of the character's competence and dignity.

You know how you and most of the Eggman fans hated how he was upstaged all throughout the previous decade for another antagonist and felt it was a disservice to the character? Yea, that's how I feel about how Knuckles is treated. Except I have to be told that it's a good thing so...

Pretty much. The reason people have such an issue with the idea of Knuckles being an idiot as well as flanderization in general is because it tends boils down a character to a very basic trait that disregards almost everything else about them.

.

.

7 hours ago, Wrapped in Black said:

I don't care about protecting Knuckles's dignity considering he was conceived as a looney tunes styl foil to Sonic who would be humiliated by him repeatedly. If anything the 3D games treated him better than that. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I thought he was initially concieved as a teammate and Sega decided to make him an antagonist-turned-good. They didn't really start leaning into the Daffy Duck, loser-type until about the mid-2000's when Shadow had the role as the serious foil to Sonic. 

Actually, I'm pretty sure he was conceptualized as a character that could both clash with who Sonic is and break through walls. Thus, a strong red character with his own affiliation regarding the Emeralds was the basis that the game and subsequent ones built off of.

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I've always found the pearl clutching over Eggman's role to be annoying too though. All that ever did was limit the types of antagonists and conflicts we could see in the series for the sake of respecting tradition. If you want Sonic's world to feel bigger and more fleshed out than you can't be afraid of main characters like Eggman feeling smaller at the same time. He can't be behind everything.

7 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I actually don't disagree, surprisingly.

My problem during the late 00s wasn't that other villains besides Eggman existed, but that Eggman wasn't utilized particularly well a lot of the time in those games. I liked his role in SA1 and especially SA2 (I mean, he was playable!); and even in Unleashed he had a pretty good showing despite not being the final boss. But I feel like his treatment in Heroes and Shadow in particular was pretty lame. So it was really a case-by-case thing for me.

I wasn't apart of that to begin with, honestly, but I'll chalk it up to another example of SonicTeam both chasing trends while repeating bad habits so often that when they finally got the message, they just overcorrected to a different degree of mixed results.

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

That's literally what he was though; Sonic X was particularly in on it, as everyone gave Knuckles shit in that show while Sonic was hailed as a god.  

 

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

With the exception of Adventure and Advance 2, most of those had some explanation though from official sources. It was explicitly said that Knuckles` lack of social skills meant he was open to Eggman's manipulations, and all those traps were meant to show off how he knew the ins and outs of Angel Island to impede the player. And yes, there are plenty players who took him seriously and hated him for his impediments. 

Nobody is trying to rewrite anything; if there was a punchline to Knuckles` character, then it must have went over everyone's head, because it wasn't until Sonic X and Sonic Battle where everyone started to notice how he was being treated like shit. I'm not saying people took Knuckles all that serious, but they certainly leaned more into the bumbling nature later on than before. 

Even in Sonic X, it was mostly how he was treated by the other characters rather than Knuckles himself the vast majority of the time. He suffered more from the repetition rather than the two modes themselves.

 

7 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean, in S3&K he's still largely one step ahead of Sonic and constantly a thorn in his side. Those traps still inconvenience Sonic from a narrative standpoint, if not in gameplay.

And it makes sense; This is Angel Island, Knuckles's home turf. Of course he knows all the tricks and traps to give Sonic a hard time. I felt like that was conveyed pretty well in-game; Knuckles is tricked by Eggman, sure, but he's still decently effective at throwing a wrench into Sonic's progress while he believes that Sonic's the bad guy.

Not downplaying the comic relief angle though; Knuckles does occasionally get knocked around a bit himself, like falling off the platform in Launch Base during the Death Egg launch. I feel like it was an even-handed mix; Knuckles was an effective enemy, but still kind of silly, which is fine.

Not unlike Eggman in a way, actually.

It's starting to sound like they may have conflated Knuckles with Fang at some point.

[DabigRG]

Born on an island

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

 

Bad writing in the past games doesn't excuse this. That's largely key to the problem, because villains pretend it doesn't exist, even though it is so powerful. 

No, this is completely incorrect. It isn't that Eggman doesn't give a shit about the Master Emerald, especially because it's not powerful - it's because he thinks he doesn't need it, or even the Chaos Emeralds, because the Phantom Ruby's power of illusion trumps them. If you take a look at the direct page:

He says he doesn't need to bother trying to go through the effort of stealing the Master Emerald, because the power of the Phantom Ruby, and it's illusions are already more than enough for his purposes, which was largely taking out Sonic. I still think Eggman could've been using the ME for something, like powering the Death Egg, ala S3&K, or something - but the explanation here makes enough sense - Eggman is so utterly cocky with the Ruby's powerful that he believes he ultimately doesn't require the ME or Chaos Emeralds. That doesn't make them irrelevant, or any less powerful, it just means the Ruby suits Eggman's plan better, and he already has it without any additional trouble dealing with Knuckles.

The problem here is what I said above - the prequel comics mean nothing to Forces' plot however, because nothing from the comics gets remotely mentioned in the game, likely due to how confused the plot was already, and how many rewrites had occurred, key of which being Infinite's shifting plot between being the commander of Jackal Squad, and being an artificially created being. The prequels come off more as a quick band-aid from Ian Flynn trying to fix up the plot problems of Forces, instead of being easily accessible and explained in the game itself.

Btw, I wanted to note something that this page incidentally does for me: the story told in the comics were on SonicTeam, they just had Mr. Flynn and Adam Bryce Thomas work on them since they knew very well that they did good work.

Sure, things like Sally being on a monitor and Orbot suggesting the name Anarchy Beryl(which he admitted to forgetting about, lol) were on them and it wouldn't surprise me if the nod to the Master Emerald was a little extra as well, but everything else was SEGA.

4 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The Master Emerald literally trumps the Chaos Emeralds in power, and is enough to easily empower large machines with ease - including the rebuilt Death Egg. The fact that the ME itself is constantly misused in the games doesn't deem it unimportant, it just means that it keeps getting under-utilised in the series. Destroying the ME might drop Angel Island into the ocean, sure - but stealing and using it's power has far more of a knock-on effect. There's a reason that it's the centre of Eggman's plan in S3&K, because it's the most powerful relic on Sonic's world. The fact that it's been under the effect of misusing and bad writing since Adventure 1 doesn't excuse that fact.

The problem with the Master Emerald is a very easy one to nail down - you tied a character to it, a character who's purpose is protecting this insanely powerful relic from those who would misuse it's power, and then due to years of bad writing, you forget about it entirely. The reason why it gets to be important to the comics is because Ian Flynn is a competent writer who knows how to utilise elements of the lore far better than SEGA does. There's a reason Knuckles is generally regarded as far better in the comics than he is in the games.

 

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Is it? Because no one treats it like it.

Like literally shadow's alien dad, who has been to the planet before who could have easily snatched it up forgoes doing that entirely just to get the chaos emeralds. And it isn't just black doom, multiple villian's foregoe even going for the thing because its largely not worth it, not because of knuckles because its just in universe it seems more powerful to have the chaos emeralds than the M.E the universe doesn't really give it due importance. And all its important lore bits largely revolve around echidna lore in the past rather than any current relevance.

Eggman in the last 3d game has a comic where explains as to why he does not give a shit about the M.E.

The M.E ain't important. You could literally destroy the M.E right now and nothing would happen to the world besides angel island would be in the sea. Would i love for the M.E and echidina lore to be more important? Sure , is it though, in retrospect not really no. The only time it gets to be important is in the comics really.

The M.E in multiple ways is just limiting narrative. Like you don't even need it for knuckles to be the same. Knuckles could just be guarding angel island, because it has ruins that I dunno reveal how to get the true power out of the chaos emeralds, maybe it shows how chaos control works. Acient robots like the gizoids. Maybe its just a bastion of history that needs to be protected.

M.E just feels like " what if we made a super emerald," had like 1 idea for it (chaos) and then realized they only had one idea and quitely shuffled it out.

 

I agree with this

Really thinking about it over the last year...you're both not wrong exactly: the Master Emerald is really useful to those who know how to use it--its just that very few have any clue and its involvement in most games tends to be incidental.

• Sonic 3 had it's existence go unacknowledged outside of maybe a manual, but it is indeed Knuckles' property along with everything else the Island. Eggman needed to get the Death Egg flying again and another power source would be very helpful in that department...
• Sonic & Knuckles is where it makes it's proper debut as the tipping point of the plot: Eggman somehow found out about its existence--likely through getting a blip on his radar during damage assessment "HOLY MOLY, ITS LIKE A GIANT CHAOS EMERALD!"--and eventually sneaking into Hidden Palace to take it after the Death Egg was nearly repaired while Knuckles was fighting Sonic. Whether he knew of it's potential or not, it was a jackpot either way that he and after everyhing was said & done Mecha Sonic persistently tried to take advantage before finally being defeated. 
  • I'm not sure whether it was in any of the questionably canon spinoffs afterwards, but it's connection to Knuckles was no doubt mentioned. 
• Adventure had Eggman discover stone tablets speaking of Perfect Chaos' existence and the fact that he was sealed into the Master Emerald before he could completely destroy the world. Thus, when Angel Island drifted near Final Egg in the Mystic Ruins, he presumably had one of the E-Series snipe it from the Egg Carrier in order to release him. Knuckles, who had ironically been questioning his purpose, then set off to repair it and his alarm in doing so lead to him being hostile toward both Eggman(who he didn't know was responsible) and Sonic(who he'd been mislead into considering a possible competitor in collecting the shards) before eventually getting pay back against the monster he almost accurately gauged as responsible for it's shattering.
• Adventure 2 is interesting mix of coincidence and desirability dragging it into the plot. It's worth noting that Eggman's lazy comment about it has root in the offscreen context of it all--he might as well consider using it for something because Shadow had told him to collect the Chaos Emeralds and Rouge had managed to drag it right into his backyard. Its his interference with this petty conflict that causes Knuckles to get involved in the plot as well as give Rouge incentive to follow Eggman in order to get his radar--that he was also looking into Project Shadow was extra impeccable. Nonetheless, it is the presence of the Master Emerald on the Ark that causes the Biolizard to be reactivated and then fuse itself with the space station because Knuckles was able to stop the Emeralds themselves from being used in Gerald's revenge.
• There's not much to the Advance games storytelling and I'm not too knowledgeable on the first one in particular, but it was obviously the big turning point in Eggman's plan with the Genesis Wave. So big in fact that he stationed an Auto Automaton of the Guardian himself & in the third caper Gemerl at what became of Angel Island the first time to impede the heroes and eventually showed up himself as the main obstacle to them accessing it's power. It is his defeat here that allows them to use it's power in conjunction with the Chaos Emeralds to fix the world.
• Rivals actually had Dr. NEGA target it as a powersource for his last resort and take an extra sneaky step to acquire it: he used the camera on it's future countepart on Onyx Island since it's a transcendent being and so causes it to disappear in the present too before traveling back. Knuckles is understably very wtf about the matter and so gets involved in order to retrieve it from who he thinks is Eggman. When Nega's plan to replace Eggman and wrong the rights that led to his miserable career failed, he pulled his trump card: use the Master Emerald to enhance the camera's power aboard his space shuttle to transform the planet into a card.
• Apparently Rivals 2 had Nega stuff it into a radar that he gives to Rouge, who he hires to collect the Chaos Emeralds? Idfk

5 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Ehh. I think Knuckles is gullible, but not stupid. It's a fine line.

I mean, Knuckles is smart enough to operate mechanical traps on Angel Island and even - with presumably little-to-no-training - pilot Eggman's machines in both Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic Advance 2. I think Knuckles is gullible and shortsighted, but this doesn't really demonstrate a lack of overall intelligence.

Like, there's a pretty wide distinction between Knuckles being overly trusting in the games, versus not being able to read in Sonic Boom.

Wait, he did that in Triple Trouble too?

[Dr. Mechano]

18 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Wait, he did that in Triple Trouble too?

Yep!

Knuckles boss fight starts at 4:55