Knuckles as Guardian of ME

[DabigRG]

.

3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

character in jokey role

character that is a joke

I was ping ponging between who to reference here: Big or Zomom. Ya'll went ahead and took one each to make the point.

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Knuckles I laugh WITH

Knuckles I laugh AT

(well, I don't laugh here, but you get the idea.)

Difference can be subtle but it's there.

 

5 hours ago, Wrapped in Black said:

Not allowing Knuckles the flexibility to play jokey roles sometimes isn't cool with me either. 

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Whoa boy. Can we just agree that Knuckles was not meant to be a joke? Stupid, maaaaaybe, but not a joke?

Balance, Moderation, Flexibility, Capability, Fallability. All variations on overall good handling of things.

Which is indeed something I gave the Pontaff interpretation some credit in taking minor steps towards highlighting: Knuckles being a cocky oaf or uptight knucklehead can be good if you find good dosages for it in the midst of his portrayal. 

Him just being there to he can called dumb or otherwise be a walking target is not. Both sides of the coin should be given respect unless the tone is such that emphasizing one is understandable and not just adding to a pile.

 

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I mean, SA1 created Big the Cat to fill that specific niche. If they considered Knuckles a hilarious idiot, they wouldn't make new one.

 

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Back to topic of this... topic. I've been thinking: how about Knuckles just stops being a Guardian? Like, officially stops.

But what about ME?
For starters someone else could take over (Chaos for example). Or better yet, let's break.... drain it's power....ugh, somehow destroy it for good.  I agree with people who say Master Emerald just isn't convenient for the franchise. 7 Emeralds are THE macguffins of the series , so larger master-ier rock with similar powers is just confusing. It's main goal is enrich Knuckles. But if it harming him, let's ditch it.  Just give it a good send-off. Make epic game that ends with Knuckles sacrificing ME to save multiverse or something like this.

But Knuckles needs to be a Guardian. He always was, always must be.
Harley Quinn was created before Knuckles and she was always "Joker Girlfriend". Now she broke up with him in comics, games, cartoons, movies and probably manga. if exists. Carol Danvers was always "Miss" Marvel. Ganondorf was always a pig. Beast was "always" without blue hair.
Knuckles can change, just like them. And his past won't be erased. Like Metal Sonic in Heroes or Shadow Vs Mephiles it will stay there as iconic part of the character.

Well, who is Knuckles without Master Emerald to protect? Dumb Muscle? Sidekick nr 2? Pointless fanservice?
Treasure hunter. Let's FINALLY do something about that aspect of him. Sometimes he'll look for echidna-related stuff, sometimes for whatever is convenient for game's plot (treasure of Lost Hex, Gaia Temples, relics of Solaris. It writes itself). Being basically Indiana Jones will make him cool and much easier to implement in any game. Maybe we can get that awesome hat of his.
And the best part? His rivalry/romance with Rouge wouldn't be just preserved, but down right rejuvenated. They can race for the same treasure. She can steal gem from him and actually keep it (something she couldn't do with ME).

I know you're right. The third is a point that definitely should be drawn from either way.

I guess my other main issue with it is it stands to takeaway something I'm not sure many people really put stock in for itself, but it is something at least I appreciate: it's basically his background and place in the world--somewhere he can lay his head, look around, and say, "this is my little slice." That also applies a bit to Big, Cream's family, the Chaotix, and in theory, Blaze and the Deadly Six. I suppose he's technically the more legit among them since we only explore it extensively, but still taking exception into account.

Even if you could meet halfway on that point, I'm not confident SonicTeam would care enough about the bigger internal picture to even bother establishing a mold for that in the clay. Especially since this is very predominantly an on-the-move series.

.

57 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Yep!

Knuckles boss fight starts at 4:55

Wow and he laughs when he hits you.

What a jerk.

[DabigRG]

Quite a bit of doubleposting happening. 

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Quite a bit of doubleposting happening. 

You could slow it down and wait for someone to reply.

Anyway, there's a distinct difference between how Knuckles` comical moments tend to be portrayed; more often than not, they're at the expense of the character, generally highlighting his weaknesses or faults. You're laughing AT Knuckles because he did something stupid and now Sonic has to clean up his messes. By itself, there is nothing wrong with that. But the thing, there's nothing to ever balance that out; Knuckles does a stupid thing, you laugh at him, and that's it. No point does he ever get a chance to redeem himself. He's a joke and that's it.

Most of the time when Knuckles does do stupid shit, he at least gets a chance to redeem himself to make up for it afterward; he fends off the Egg Robo in Sonic 3, by himself. He successfully manages to restore the Master Emerald and fight off Chaos 6 along with Sonic, etc etc. But then they just kind of stopped that. So you only have those moments of him looking weak to make Sonic look better. 

 

 

But enough about that topic

 

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Back to topic of this... topic. I've been thinking: how about Knuckles just stops being a Guardian? Like, officially stops.

But what about ME?
For starters someone else could take over (Chaos for example). Or better yet, let's break.... drain it's power....ugh, somehow destroy it for good.  I agree with people who say Master Emerald just isn't convenient for the franchise. 7 Emeralds are THE macguffins of the series , so larger master-ier rock with similar powers is just confusing. It's main goal is enrich Knuckles. But if it harming him, let's ditch it.  Just give it a good send-off. Make epic game that ends with Knuckles sacrificing ME to save multiverse or something like this.

But Knuckles needs to be a Guardian. He always was, always must be.
Harley Quinn was created before Knuckles and she was always "Joker Girlfriend". Now she broke up with him in comics, games, cartoons, movies and probably manga. if exists. Carol Danvers was always "Miss" Marvel. Ganondorf was always a pig. Beast was "always" without blue hair.
Knuckles can change, just like them. And his past won't be erased. Like Metal Sonic in Heroes or Shadow Vs Mephiles it will stay there as iconic part of the character.

Well, who is Knuckles without Master Emerald to protect? Dumb Muscle? Sidekick nr 2? Pointless fanservice?
Treasure hunter. Let's FINALLY do something about that aspect of him. Sometimes he'll look for echidna-related stuff, sometimes for whatever is convenient for game's plot (treasure of Lost Hex, Gaia Temples, relics of Solaris. It writes itself). Being basically Indiana Jones will make him cool and much easier to implement in any game. Maybe we can get that awesome hat of his.
And the best part? His rivalry/romance with Rouge wouldn't be just preserved, but down right rejuvenated. They can race for the same treasure. She can steal gem from him and actually keep it (something she couldn't do with ME).

I mean, for all intents and purpose, they basically have stopped making him Guardian of...anything.

The treasure hunting angle is an interesting one, but if that were to be his role, I'd want them to transition it a bit better than it just being something that happens spontaneously. 

[DabigRG]

29 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You could slow it down and wait for someone to reply.

What I meant is that my responses are so gradual/delayed that they've timed out the auto merge consistently--that's actually just one of the little messages I use to denote that I'm editting out my recent posts so they can be deleted. 

Ergo, not on ya'll, just a matter of hanging up on my end.

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Anyway, there's a distinct difference between how Knuckles` comical moments tend to be portrayed; more often than not, they're at the expense of the character, generally highlighting his weaknesses or faults. You're laughing AT Knuckles because he did something stupid and now Sonic has to clean up his messes. By itself, there is nothing wrong with that. But the thing, there's nothing to ever balance that out; Knuckles does a stupid thing, you laugh at him, and that's it. No point does he ever get a chance to redeem himself. He's a joke and that's it.

Most of the time when Knuckles does do stupid shit, he at least gets a chance to redeem himself to make up for it afterward; he fends off the Egg Robo in Sonic 3, by himself. He successfully manages to restore the Master Emerald and fight off Chaos 6 along with Sonic, etc etc. But then they just kind of stopped that. So you only have those moments of him looking weak to make Sonic look better. 

Even before those, you have him teaming up with and even entrusting Sonic to save the day, putting aside his own pride of self-reliance in the process.

Which in his debut involved once again falling back on his shortcuts around the island to get them where they need to do until he gets them to the top and then finally gives out to exhaustion. 

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 6/5/2020 at 4:30 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

When talking how Sega stopped caring about lore, on of prime examples is "Knuckles doesn't guard Master Emerald anymore". And while it is obvious plothole, I do find it almost impossible to fix.

I mean, Sonic 3 & SA1 plot resolved around ME, SA2 basically cheated to include the darn thing and Heroes just gave up, Knuckles leave Angel Island when he feels like. Even Flynn just said "yeah, during Forces Knuckles just left Master Emerald, unprotected. Just like that".

So is there any way to write stories about Knuckles without involving ME every single time? I have few solutions, but none of them perfect..

1) Just ignore the topic
obviously it doesn't' work well
2) Knuckles has (or rather "should be given") some magical way to instantly teleport home.
Convenient, but reeks of "deux ex machina"
3) He keeps it in his pocket(?), like during climax of SA2
That's the closest to logical solution, but still means Knuckles drags sacred treasure on dangerous adventures. And SA1 proved mobian pockets suck badly.
4) He has someone take over, maybe Chaos or only logical choice.
While in theory I do like idea that Chaos pops out to protect ME, he clearly didn't do it in the past (SA2). Besides, wouldn't the make Chaos real Guardian and Knuckles a part-time helper? And other candidate is too awesome to ever become canon.

Anyone has better ones?

I’ve literally made at least eleven Ideas over this very topic at least six years back or more.

Not even joking.

Give me some time, I’ll dig it right back up.

[FlameStream]

I'll be siding with the opinion of bringing characters only when the scenario calls for it. This would also mean that characters like Tails and Eggman would not have to be shoe-ins.

That way, it would make their appearance much stronger and meaningful, not to mention a much easier time to create a coherent story with meaningful iterations. I would not mind seeing things they did with Sonic-Blaze-Marine for other odd/rare combinations like Sonic-Chaotix, and so on.

If they really have to be put the favourites in for a nod, then maybe as a passer-by/cameo to let people know they exist and are doing their own thing, but only if it makes sense.

[___-_]

Before seeing that Sonic Runners in-universe explanation, I was gonna say just let Tails build some type of temporary defense system around the emerald shrine or some shit. Hell, make the Tornado 3 and make that thing run on auto if the squad really needed Knuckles's help, since not only are they clearly cool enough by now that they're able to fully trust each other with favors, Tails and Sonic are probably the only ones who can even consistently travel up to Angel Island anyway given they're the only ones with a plane. Also, this makes it so that you don't have to worry about a cast member sitting out on the adventure (not to say that they can't chime in ever if they were stuck on duty, because it's definitely possible to entertain that with, say, a less intense / maybe lighthearted side quest to see how the emerald was protected after the main game gets completed if the devs really wanted to have fun with that).

It's not like Knuckles can go the other way around and knock on people's doors asking to baby sit unless everyone down under are ready to get their boards and surf up in yet another tsunami attack if the Master Emerald needs to be around Knuckles at all times. 

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On the topic regarding Knuckles's portrayal, I've seen him as a lil goofy, you know, a lil awkward at times even. He can sometimes be easily fooled due to his overly trusting nature and is overly committed to his guardian duty, but he always meant well and was always the right man for the duty put on him because he's so stern and filled with determination. I never saw him as an incapable clown no one took seriously. I don't think the rapidly diminishing echidna race would leave such an important task like protecting literal infinite power and a floating piece of land to an actual idiot lol. Clearly Knuckles was meant to be taken more seriously considering the fact his ancestor did. Him bringing comedic value even at his expense to balance his brave hearted nature doesn't (well, shouldn't have changed) that. 

I don't blame Knuckles getting tricked in S3&K. What does Knuckles know about Eggman at that point? Eggman may be infamous where he's around but that infamy couldn't have possibly reached to the skies where Angel Island is set. And even then, Knuckles was clearly calculative in-game, always managing to be a step ahead Sonic and Tails with his traps even if the two over came them. I mean, the dude canceled out Super Sonic! Eggman, a literal genius has trouble dealing with base Sonic. Gotta give the echidna credit where it's due.

I don't even blame Knuckles in Sonic Adventure. Sure, Sonic calls him a smooth brained individual when they both got finessed by Eggman, but that's Sonic's perspective in his story. He doesn't know all the details. All he knows is that Knuckles came outta nowhere and fucked everything up. But in Knuckles's perspective, he's almost fully justified in his actions. Eggman may have left some seeds in, saying Sonic is looking for the Master Emerald, but even then, it's not like Knuckles straight up took in and believed him there outright. He questioned if Sonic would even do that, and even then he had to go and find him anyways because he was at a rut at the point. Not only that, Knuckles saw a green emerald which Sonic happened to have when he finally found him. Being the then socially awkward loner that takes his job very seriously, Knuckles rushed in fists first instead of asking Sonic what the deal was. That was his one mistake right there, but that doesn't make him an idiot. He was just so duty driven and all the cards circumstantially fell into Eggman's hands.

In Sonic Adventure 2, he's never played as an idiot and doesn't ever get finessed. There's comedic moments at his expense, sure, but that doesn't make him an idiot for being the butt of them. Amy rag dolling him by the teeth to move him out of Tails driving space says more about Amy having no type of chill haha. With the space shuttle scene, well, Knuckles literally just gathered all of the shards just for Tails to steer near and collide with an asteroid. It's not his fault for that. Knuckles panicked since those shards were sure enough going to drift into deep space if he didn't act quick. He may have made the shuttle spiral, but it wasn't without reason... and let's not forget that Tails was the one not watching where he was going in the first place and kick started everything.

I don't think he got tricked again until what... Sonic Advance 2...? And they don't even go into detail with that anyway other than Sonic screaming at him for getting caught. I think it was a harmless hearty jab at Knuckles since the stakes in ADV2 weren't that high anyway. At the same time, I believe it was around this era where some character portrayals started being misunderstood and reverted for the main games in general, and where you'd slowly see how they started molding Knuckles more into a cocky clown where he'd call out on doing something better than Sonic before getting ignored and / or beaten up off screen somewhere for the few times they do decide to give him screen presence anyway. He definitely evolved into something else over time.

[MetalSkulkBane]

If Knuckles was always stupid, can I have old version of stupid Knuckles back?

[Almar]

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_Technical_Files

Says he's supposed to be clever but just ignorant of the world outside his island:

He is very clever and smart, but had lived his life in solitude and was not accustomed to dealing with characters from the outer world, much less such a cunning one as Dr. Robotnik. This is why he was easily deceived by Robotnik into thinking that Sonic was a bad guy trying to steal the Chaos Emeralds. This deception allowed Robotnik to pit Knuckles against Sonic as a powerful adversary.