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How is IDW an improvement over Forces?


OBD96

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I've heard many people praise the IDW Sonic comics to death, saying they're an improvement on characters and tone over Forces. 

Personally, I don't really see that. 

Firstly, during the Zombot arc, tons of characters were getting killed off at once. Like, seriously, isn't that extreme for a comic series that's supposed to be for all ages? Wouldn't that give nightmares to child readers? 

Secondly, while I do agree with character improvement for the most part, I don't see how Tails' depiction here is any better; I mean, he still behaves like a coward, fleeing from enemies such as Zombots, similar to Unleashed where he fled from Dark Gaia monsters. How is this better?

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The Zombot arc is certainly dark, but I don't find it's as dramatic as even something like Maria's death in SA2; it's essentially just a different take on robotization, not actually killing the characters in question. It is dramatic, but that comes from the more realistic ways in which the characters have reacted to the crisis. 

As for Tails... well, of course he'd flee from the Zombots. Everyone has to except Sonic, and the only reason he can afford to hold them off is that he's already infected. Fighting the Zombots pretty much means getting infected by the Zombots, which Shadow already learned the hard way. There's a time to play hero, and in Tails' case the more important thing was just making it out alive, given he was the brains of the operation to fight it. The earlier issues already showed Tails teaming up with Sonic to actually lay the smackdown, so it's not about Tails being a coward; it's about Tails knowing that this is a lot more serious than the usual Eggman robot situation. 

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33 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

The Zombot arc is certainly dark, but I don't find it's as dramatic as even something like Maria's death in SA2; it's essentially just a different take on robotization, not actually killing the characters in question. It is dramatic, but that comes from the more realistic ways in which the characters have reacted to the crisis. 

As for Tails... well, of course he'd flee from the Zombots. Everyone has to except Sonic, and the only reason he can afford to hold them off is that he's already infected. Fighting the Zombots pretty much means getting infected by the Zombots, which Shadow already learned the hard way. There's a time to play hero, and in Tails' case the more important thing was just making it out alive, given he was the brains of the operation to fight it. The earlier issues already showed Tails teaming up with Sonic to actually lay the smackdown, so it's not about Tails being a coward; it's about Tails knowing that this is a lot more serious than the usual Eggman robot situation. 

And what about when he fled from the Dark Gaia Monsters in Unleashed? 

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15 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

And what about when he fled from the Dark Gaia Monsters in Unleashed? 

I suppose in that case you could argue it was a large group of a bizarre new threat he'd never encountered before, but either way whether he's a coward or not in Unleashed isn't exactly relevant to my point, which is that him fleeing in IDW isn't a matter of cowardice. 

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Because the writer, Ian Flynn and his comic team, actually knows how to make a story good and puts actual effort into his work.

He knows the characters well—insofar as the way he’s told to write them, because the way he wrote Shadow more than likely isn’t the way he would’ve like to have him act given that his previous works with Shadow have him using his head better than he did in the Metal Virus arc. And he knows how to set up a narrative and adhere to “Show, don’t Tell” when making it.

Standard stuff, really, but goes to show what Forces did wrong in its attempt. If you gave the Sonic IDW team the opportunity to remake Forces’s story, it would look a hell of a lot better than it original did—it won’t be perfect, Ian’s still got some writing hiccups he needs to work on that he’s had some trouble with since he was working on Sonic during his Archie years, but it would be far from the lazy attempt Forces had.

And if what happens in Forces is too dark for children, they wouldn’t last a minute watching a classic Disney film like Lion King, Pinnochio, or even modern ones like the Incredibles.

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1 hour ago, Tracker_TD said:

The Zombot arc is certainly dark, but I don't find it's as dramatic as even something like Maria's death in SA2; it's essentially just a different take on robotization, not actually killing the characters in question. It is dramatic, but that comes from the more realistic ways in which the characters have reacted to the crisis. 

That's what it is for me. I hate the "Dark and Edgy" style games like SA2 tried to put on this franchise but I don't mind the story being serious or having stakes. It feels more like an escalating crisis that the heroes have to deal with other than shit like "Oh, this child was murdered by the government. Aliens want to eat humans. It doesn't matter what Shadow does eventually humanity will try to kill him." That stuff reeks of "Please take us seriously!!! Please! Please Take Us Seriously!"

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Not seeing how SA2 was different than SA1 in that regard. It was more the stuff that came after it and Heroes that was really trying to hard to be dark and edgy.

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1 hour ago, Tracker_TD said:

I suppose in that case you could argue it was a large group of a bizarre new threat he'd never encountered before, but either way whether he's a coward or not in Unleashed isn't exactly relevant to my point, which is that him fleeing in IDW isn't a matter of cowardice. 

It is to me. I don't care if the Zombots or Dark Gaia Monsters were infectous. I just want to see Tails fight instead of chickening out like a pussy.

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4 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

It is to me. I don't care if the Zombots or Dark Gaia Monsters were infectous. I just want to see Tails fight instead of chickening out like a pussy.

Tails is supposed to be a genius above all else. Hence he's smart enough to realise fighting a Zombot and getting infected isn't a good idea in the long-run. He's never been about brawn above all else, that's more Knuckles' thing; if there's a better way out than fighting, he'll probably take it.

 

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Like another commentor mentioned, getting the virus isn't equal to death. Even then, any slight mention of death or tragedy isn't really edgy. Any time the Sonic series tries to have any emotion or high stakes, some fans relegate it to the world of "dark" or "edgy". 

Granted, sometimes it has to do with the execution of the story writers. But there is just a certain crowd of fans who think that any content that has any element of tragedy is "dark". But the thing is, many games and movies targeted towards kids (having E10+ or PG ratings) deal with content a lot darker than "characters turning into robots who will turn back anyway when this is over". 

TLDR, I am tired of the words, "edgy" and "dark" in this fanbase, because it feels like those are throwaway words fans use that don't have any meaning anymore. Just my opinion though and I am not speaking for others.

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1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

Tails is supposed to be a genius above all else. Hence he's smart enough to realise fighting a Zombot and getting infected isn't a good idea in the long-run. 

Same with the Dark Gaia monsters? 

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1 minute ago, OBD96 said:

Same with the Dark Gaia monsters? 

The Unleashed example isn't as justified as the Zombots, but I think you can still make the argument that it was a huge group of unfamiliar enemies (and later on, Dark Gaia's energy does start possessing people to boot). It's not like Tails just hides away the whole game either; after all, he's back to doing some good ol' Sky Chase shenanigans with Sonic only a stage later.

The issue with Tails in Forces is moreso that Infinite's clones are all threats he or Sonic have already faced before than anything, and that he's relying entirely on Sonic to get stuff done, whereas in Unleashed he wasn't even aware Sonic was about.

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It's not actually a bad thing for a kid to be scared of monsters.

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Just curious, from what issue have you started reading the comic? If you jump in the middle of the virus arc you might not full understanding the context of everything.

In any case, Tails in IDW has consistently participated actively to help Sonic. Including in hand to hand combat. When he is not doing that, he takes things into his own hand unlike the games. Even if he may be afraid, Tails does something about it.

In that same issue you mentioned, Tails isn't stupid enough to do combat with his body like in previous issues because nobody can touch the zombots. Yet he still gets out the Tornado/Cyclone to fight back once he is able to do so.

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3 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

It is to me. I don't care if the Zombots or Dark Gaia Monsters were infectous. I just want to see Tails fight instead of chickening out like a pussy.

He is supposed to be a child.

I would say that it's even better to show him having child-like emotion, being afraid by stuff that are frightful or crying when he is desperate (it broke me to see him cry, but it was good to see him be that affected for once). That's the difference between IDWSonic's writing and Forces' : here, Tails being afraid or not fighting isn't just treated in a cartoony way, but they show us why he is afraid (and as *real* fright, something that I think is pretty normal for a 8 y.o. even superheroic face to enourmous threat), why he is desperate.

That was the problem for me with "Sonic Help Me". Not Tails being afraid. Him being afraid treated as just some kind of cartoony reaction. If the cutscene had made me felt at least a bit the fright of Tails, I would have rolled with it no problem.

And that's what is better in this cas in IDW Sonic on that subject, at least for me.

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Just now, OBD96 said:

How?

...because with the Zombots, just the mere act of trying to fight back would lead to almost certain infection, again as Shadow found out. The Dark Gaia monsters aren't, as far as I know, literally infectious to the touch; so while it's feasible that Tails could have fought back against the Dark Gaia monsters, ultimately my other point about the Gaia monsters being a huge swarm of unfamiliar foes (including the huge brute guy) probably took precedence. Tails knew he was probably going to get the shit kicked out of him and went to hide. 

Tails can fight back, but he's probably smart enough to know when he's in over his head. With stuff like the Egg Walker in SA1; yeah, it's a giant mech, but it's also Eggman, who he's fought alongside Sonic numerous times up to that point. 

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4 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

He is supposed to be a child.

I would say that it's even better to show him having child-like emotion, being afraid by stuff that are frightful or crying when he is desperate (it broke me to see him cry, but it was good to see him be that affected for once). That's the difference between IDWSonic's writing and Forces' : here, Tails being afraid or not fighting isn't just treated in a cartoony way, but they show us why he is afraid (and as *real* fright, something that I think is pretty normal for a 8 y.o. even superheroic face to enourmous threat), why he is desperate.

That was the problem for me with "Sonic Help Me". Not Tails being afraid. Him being afraid treated as just some kind of cartoony reaction. If the cutscene had made me felt at least a bit the fright of Tails, I would have rolled with it no problem.

And that's what is better in this cas in IDW Sonic on that subject, at least for me.

And what's your argument on him and the dark gaia monsters?

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2 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

He is supposed to be a child.

I would say that it's even better to show him having child-like emotion, being afraid by stuff that are frightful or crying when he is desperate (it broke me to see him cry, but it was good to see him be that affected for once). That's the difference between IDWSonic's writing and Forces' : here, Tails being afraid or not fighting isn't just treated in a cartoony way, but they show us why he is afraid (and as *real* fright, something that I think is pretty normal for a 8 y.o. even superheroic face to enourmous threat), why he is desperate.

Just wanted to say that this is how I feel about Tails 100%. I actually want Tails to be afraid sometims because he is a little kid. The issue was all in execution and how it made Tails cower directly in front of the screen and made him give up. Otherwise, a certain amount of fear is totally healthy.

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3 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

...because with the Zombots, just the mere act of trying to fight back would lead to almost certain infection, again as Shadow found out. The Dark Gaia monsters aren't, as far as I know, literally infectious to the touch; so while it's feasible that Tails could have fought back against the Dark Gaia monsters, ultimately my other point about the Gaia monsters being a huge swarm of unfamiliar foes (including the huge brute guy) probably took precedence. Tails knew he was probably going to get the shit kicked out of him and went to hide. 

Tails can fight back, but he's probably smart enough to know when he's in over his head. With stuff like the Egg Walker in SA1; yeah, it's a giant mech, but it's also Eggman, who he's fought alongside Sonic numerous times up to that point. 

And when thought Sonic died in SA2, he took down eggman instead of cowering like he did with Chaos. I still hate that latter scene to this day.

3 minutes ago, prowerboy26 said:

Just wanted to say that this is how I feel about Tails 100%. I actually want Tails to be afraid sometims because he is a little kid. The issue was all in execution and how it made Tails cower directly in front of the screen and made him give up. Otherwise, a certain amount of fear is totally healthy.

But Tails is a fictional child, not a real one, so I expect better from him. Just because a character is a kid, doesn't automatically mean they'll behave like one would in real life.

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9 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

And what's your argument on him and the dark gaia monsters?

it's not a really well-written scene, but I don't have a problem with him being afraid at that moment too. Not only it was big scary monsters, as many people pointed out, but he didn't have some proper motivation (as the adrenaline rush in SA2 or vs Eggman in SA1), reassuring presence (when he co-fought Chaos 4 with Sonic and Knuckles) and it was something he didn't knew or understand (he is more a tech kid than a spooky-magicy kid)

But as Forces, the scene being better-written would have helped.

 

As I said, I don't have anything against Tails being afraid of stuff. I just want it to be shown with a better writing of emotions, especially in these times where a lot modern cartoon are trying to put some work on that topic (emotions). And that's what IDWSonic give to me.

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5 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

And when thought Sonic died in SA2, he took down eggman instead of cowering like he did with Chaos. I still hate that latter scene to this day.

Well yeah, nobody here's arguing that the Forces scene makes total sense. But every 'Tails doesn't immediately try to fight' scene isn't created equal, and Tails not fighting back against the Zombots is justified because nobody fights against the Zombots without getting infected. And in Dark Gaia's case, he hadn't already been up against Dark Gaia monsters numerous times, as he had with Eggman as of SA2 or Chaos as of Forces.

As others have said, Tails not always fighting isn't the end of the world. He's not diet-Sonic; he's a kid, and he's more about brains than brawn. He can hold his own, but he's not some badass action hero. 

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5 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

But Tails is a fictional child, not a real one, so I expect better from him. Just because a character is a kid, doesn't automatically mean they'll behave like one would in real life.

I respect your opinion, but fiction has some basis in reality. That is the whole reason that give the character ages. So you have some idea psychologically where the characters are in their life. If they wanted Tails to be just sure 100% sure of himself all the time, he probably wouldn't be presented as a kid.

That being said, the fact he does not behave 100% like a kid, but still has many kid-like qualities is what makes us want to root for him as we see him triumph in his own battles. 

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28 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

The Unleashed example isn't as justified as the Zombots, but I think you can still make the argument that it was a huge group of unfamiliar enemies 

Tails never fought G.U.N robots (SA2), Black Arms aliens(ShTH 2005) or Iblis monsters (Sonic 06), but he fought them without running. What's your argument on those?

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4 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

Tails never fought G.U.N robots (SA2), Black Arms aliens(ShTH 2005) or Iblis monsters (Sonic 06), but he fought them without running. What's your argument on those?

Gameplay taking precedent over narrative logic, probably. Which is how it should be really, but it has little bearing on the Unleashed example since Tails isn't playable there. 

 

He's also got a big bloody mech in SA2, and in those cases the enemies aren't so much in a concentrated group swarm like the Gaia monsters or Zombots, but easily dealt with waves (because again, gameplay divide.) That, and in cases such as Shadow or 06, he's generally got someone alongside him doing the bulk of the fighting. 

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