How is IDW an improvement over Forces?

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Not seeing how SA2 was different than SA1 in that regard. It was more the stuff that came after it and Heroes that was really trying to hard to be dark and edgy.

SA1 was much less overt about that aspect, with only Eggman threatening to nuke station square in Tails story, the second half of Gamma's story, and the flashback of the ? story edging into darker territory.

2 hours ago, OBD96 said:

It is to me. I don't care if the Zombots or Dark Gaia Monsters were infectous. I just want to see Tails fight instead of chickening out like a pussy.

If there are any characters who'll choose the nonconfrontational option if it isn't necessary, it's Tails, alongside Cream, Espio, and Rouge.

Especially since the former scenario would be over the moment he makes contact. 

2 hours ago, OBD96 said:

Tails never fought G.U.N robots (SA2), Black Arms aliens(ShTH 2005) or Iblis monsters (Sonic 06), but he fought them without running. What's your argument on those?

Did he fight the Black Arms? I only remember him and Omega helping GUN deal with Eggman.

[Diogenes]

13 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

Nah, you're lying to yourself; you think Forces is a perfect, competently written game, which is why you're praising Tails' portrayal in that game. That's the impression I'm getting anyway.

Since you seem more interested in imagining arguments than actually reading what I post, you're free to continue arguing with yourself; I'm not going to bother wasting my time on you.

[OBD96]

16 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Did he fight the Black Arms? I only remember him and Omega helping GUN deal with Eggman.

He did fight the Black Arms, in the "air fleet" level where you had to protect the president's escape pod.

1 hour ago, Tracker_TD said:

Then you've missed the point of Tails' character, not the writers. Forces may have gone too far in making Tails look like a wuss, but he's not some shonen action hero. He's the brains of the operation; Sonic's the reckless action star, and Knuckles is the brute force.

Wait, so you're saying I'm worse than Pontac and Graff?

[JezMM]

24 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

Nah, you're lying to yourself; you think Forces is a perfect, competently written game, which is why you're praising Tails' portrayal in that game. That's the impression I'm getting anyway.

My dude, he literally says Forces is a badly written game in the very post you quoted here.

 

My thoughts on the subject is that at this point, it's very clear that the writers have taken the opportunity of Tails not being playable to write him as a more tactical/thoughtful character to contrast Sonic, something that doesn't really work when the next minute you're jumping headfirst into danger when playing as him.  You don't have to like it but... that's the situation.

Your original question as to his portrayal in IDW has more than been answered at this point, but in cases like Unleashed and Forces, it's clear that the writers had a goal that in those scenes where they wanted Sonic to save Tails, so they wrote him more cowardly to serve that purpose, previous characterisation be damned.  Not exactly writing I agree with either, but that's what they went with.  To be honest, in terms of acting in-character, I've always been more annoyed at the Unleashed scene for the fact that the Gaia spawn make no effort to pursue him, comes off as lazy animation and totally stupid that apparently Tails spends the entire 10-20 minute level cowering behind a wall while the Gaia spawn who were ganging up on him just... stand around.

[OBD96]

I don't get it; I thought you all hated it when Tails didn't fight, like in Forces.

[thumbs13]

3 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

I don't get it; I thought you all hated it when Tails didn't fight, like in Forces.

We hated him cowering to Chaos because he already beat him and leaving Sonic to die. Neither of those specifically have to do with Tails fighting.

[OBD96]

4 minutes ago, JezMM said:

My dude, he literally says Forces is a badly written game in the very post you quoted here.

 

My thoughts on the subject is that at this point, it's very clear that the writers have taken the opportunity of Tails not being playable to write him as a more tactical/thoughtful character to contrast Sonic, something that doesn't really work when the next minute you're jumping headfirst into danger when playing as him.  You don't have to like it but... that's the situation.

Your original question as to his portrayal in IDW has more than been answered at this point, but in cases like Unleashed and Forces, it's clear that the writers had a goal that in those scenes where they wanted Sonic to save Tails, so they wrote him more cowardly to serve that purpose, previous characterisation be damned.  Not exactly writing I agree with either, but that's what they went with.  To be honest, in terms of acting in-character, I've always been more annoyed at the Unleashed scene for the fact that the Gaia spawn make no effort to pursue him, comes off as lazy animation and totally stupid that apparently Tails spends the entire 10-20 minute level cowering behind a wall while the Gaia spawn who were ganging up on him just... stand around.

And I don't care if Tails got infected or possessed by those monsters, just as long as he attempted to fight them

[JezMM]

1 minute ago, OBD96 said:

I don't get it; I thought you all hated it when Tails didn't fight, like in Forces.

You're treating this whole conversation as if people aren't allowed to be okay with one thing but not with the other.  You can say Forces went too far without saying it was wrong entirely to not have Tails fight.

For me, that scene would've been 100% fine if they changed it so Tails refused to fight Chaos thinking that he was a friend, at least dodging an attack or two, but then Chaos gets the upper-hand and pin/grab Tails.  At that point the "help me Sonic" would've been a bit more justified.

[OBD96]

2 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

We hated him cowering to Chaos because he already beat him and leaving Sonic to die. Neither of those specifically have to do with Tails fighting.

And what about Unleashed?

2 minutes ago, JezMM said:

You're treating this whole conversation as if people aren't allowed to be okay with one thing but not with the other.  You can say Forces went too far without saying it was wrong entirely to not have Tails fight.

For me, that scene would've been 100% fine if they changed it so Tails refused to fight Chaos thinking that he was a friend, at least dodging an attack or two, but then Chaos gets the upper-hand and pin/grab Tails.  At that point the "help me Sonic" would've been a bit more justified.

For me it would have been better if Tails fought Chaos instead being some cry-baby

[JezMM]

3 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

And I don't care if Tails got infected or possessed by those monsters, just as long as he attempted to fight them

Okay well... your opinion has been put on the internet successfully then I guess and I'm sure some would agree with you.  But he didn't.

[OBD96]

10 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Your original question as to his portrayal in IDW has more than been answered at this point, but in cases like Unleashed and Forces, it's clear that the writers had a goal that in those scenes where they wanted Sonic to save Tails, so they wrote him more cowardly to serve that purpose, previous characterisation be damned.  Not exactly writing I agree with either, but that's what they went with.  To be honest, in terms of acting in-character, I've always been more annoyed at the Unleashed scene for the fact that the Gaia spawn make no effort to pursue him, comes off as lazy animation and totally stupid that apparently Tails spends the entire 10-20 minute level cowering behind a wall while the Gaia spawn who were ganging up on him just... stand around.

But both IDW and Unleashed had similar scenes of Tails not fighting and fleeing instead.

[JezMM]

1 minute ago, OBD96 said:

But both IDW and Unleashed had similar scenes of Tails not fighting and fleeing instead.

You're just saying the same thing over and over again which has been answered by numerous people multiple times now, I'm not sure what you expect out of this discussion anymore.

[OBD96]

1 minute ago, JezMM said:

You're just saying the same thing over and over again which has been answered by numerous people multiple times now, I'm not sure what you expect out of this discussion anymore.

You said both Unleashed and Forces had scenes where the writers wanted Sonic to save Tails, but what about in IDW, since it had pretty much the same kind of scene as Unleashed, where Tails flees from foes?

[JezMM]

Just now, OBD96 said:

You said both Unleashed and Forces had scenes where the writers wanted Sonic to save Tails, but what about in IDW, since it had pretty much the same kind of scene as Unleashed, where Tails flees from foes?

I agree with the answers you've already been given, Tails is too smart to fight the infectious zombots head-on when he knows it will likely result in infection.

[OBD96]

2 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I agree with the answers you've already been given, Tails is too smart to fight the infectious zombots head-on when he knows it will likely result in infection.

nah, he was cowardly to not fight them head on, just like in Unleashed and Forces.

[Nestor]

2 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

You said both Unleashed and Forces had scenes where the writers wanted Sonic to save Tails, but what about in IDW, since it had pretty much the same kind of scene as Unleashed, where Tails flees from foes?

Actually, the scene in IDW is radically different from the scenes in Unleashed and Forces in that he's facing zombots whom you categorically cannot fight in hand to hand combat without becoming one. You also cannot destroy Zombots, so fighting them would be literally worse than pointless.

1 minute ago, OBD96 said:

nah, he was cowardly to not fight them head on, just like in Unleashed and Forces.

That makes no sense - no-one is fighting the Zombots head on except Sonic (who is already infected). What possible reason would he have to fight the zombots if he can't destroy them and will get infected for no gain?

[Tracker_TD]

5 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

nah, he was cowardly to not fight them head on, just like in Unleashed and Forces.

He would just be infected. And then he's good as a paperweight to the rest of the group. Tails fighting them head on would not only be foolish, but selfish, and far more out of character than your weird-ass idea of Tails' character. 

Nobody fights them head-on without getting infected, as Sonic, Shadow and numerous others already proved. Can you not read? This has already been pointed out several times. 

[OBD96]

1 minute ago, Nestor said:

Actually, the scene in IDW is radically different from the scenes in Unleashed and Forces in that he's facing zombots whom you categorically cannot fight in hand to hand combat without becoming one. You also cannot destroy Zombots, so fighting them would be literally worse than pointless.

That makes no sense - no-one is fighting the Zombots head on except Sonic (who is already infected). What possible reason would he have to fight the zombots if he can't destroy them and will get infected for no gain?

What's the difference between the Unleashed scene and IDW scene?

1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

He would just be infected. And then he's good as a paperweight. 

Nobody fights them head-on without getting infected, as Sonic, Shadow and numerous others already proved. Can you not read? This has already been pointed out several times. 

And what do you have to say about the Unleashed scene? 

[Tracker_TD]

2 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

And what do you have to say about the Unleashed scene? 

Exactly what I said on the past 3 pages, which you apparently already forgot about. 

[OBD96]

1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

Exactly what I said on the past 3 pages, which you apparently already forgot about. 

My apologies. I'll look at them again later, since you're probably tired of repeating yourself.

[Nestor]

10 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

What's the difference between the Unleashed scene and IDW scene?

Um..... you just quoted the thing I said where I explain that?

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, OBD96 said:

So you consider Tails cowering at Chaos 0 an improvement over his SA1 & 2 character development?

I respond your view, but at the same time, I'm quite shocked by it. 

No. I was comparing IDW to Forces, per the original post.

Oh and the word is respect.

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

 

I mean in Forces he basically doesn't have one, but I assume you meant '06? Short version is that ShtH left him basically aimless as a character, throwing away his past and leaving him just a grumpy hero, and '06 failed to do anything to advance him beyond that. Mephy's whole "humanity will betray you" gamble rings entirely hollow when the previous game had him make peace with the only organization/person we know of who had a reason to hate him and the world's already accepted other superpowered talking animals as beloved heroes, not to mention it's just "bad things will happen in the future (that we will never actually see)!" 

You know, that's actually pretty topical. A considerable boon of that scene is that Shadow is once again being tempted to cave in on his recent character arc...and he doesnt. What development he just underwent in the previous game actually stuck and he was stronger for it.

1 hour ago, OBD96 said:

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Nah, you're lying to yourself; you think Forces is a perfect, competently written game, which is why you're praising Tails' portrayal in that game. That's the impression I'm getting anyway.

Oh goodness...you can praise some aspects or ideas of something without giving the flawed grater whole a pass.

[Celestia]

1 hour ago, OBD96 said:

nah, he was cowardly to not fight them head on, just like in Unleashed and Forces.

50 minutes ago, OBD96 said:

My apologies. I'll look at them again later, since you're probably tired of repeating yourself.

This is ridiculous. Well, it already was, but this was the last straw for me reading through all this. Please stop ignoring what people are saying and pretending to not have read any of it.

In fact this topic is very stupid and I'm locking it. Bye.