Why I hardly have faith in the Sonic franchise now

[SBR2]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 5:04 PM, KingScoopaKoopa said:

I think we were all supposed to just agree with them.

You now what I don't think Forces was that good but I don't think it was as bad as everyone made it out to be. The Avatar is pretty fun to customize and play as and honestly Sonic's gameplay never really bothered me that much. Classic Sonic's inclusion was pretty worthless I'll admit and the story while dumb did have a few fun moments and ideas that if left to bake a little longer could have been pretty good. 

[iambitter21]

29 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

You now what I don't think Forces was that good but I don't think it was as bad as everyone made it out to be. The Avatar is pretty fun to customize and play as and honestly Sonic's gameplay never really bothered me that much. Classic Sonic's inclusion was pretty worthless I'll admit and the story while dumb did have a few fun moments and ideas that if left to bake a little longer could have been pretty good. 

and the fact that they only had a year to make their game since they wasted it on making a graphics engine really implies that sonic should be fine if they're going on the right track now. unless they're wasting time on another graphics engine, which I hope they're not.

[Multikaris]

On 7/4/2020 at 2:17 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Sad truth is that we can't trust Sega ever again. They made Sonic 06, felt rrrrreally bad about it and did everything to apologize.... only to publish Rise of Lyric. That basically means we can never trust them with quality.

But talking about it doesn't to much good. Just don't buy next Sonic game until positive review show up and try enjoying Mania 2, IDW, movie, fan works... pretty much anything but Sonic Team work.

Pretty much... TSR is evidence that not even going outside Sonic Team is WHOLLY reliable, anyways. And yeah, I feel like Iizuka is trying his hardest and there may be something deeper going on, as seen with what happened with Shadow.

[SBR2]

I swear I remember people enjoying TSR until the exact second that Crash Team Racing Nitro Fueled came out.

[Sega DogTagz]

TSR's biggest hurdle is that it is not ASRT-2. That game set the bar so devilishly high, that any departure from the formula was going to look like a step backward. I feel like if they go the safe route and drop a TSR-T on our heads, Sumo will be back in the fastline and the series will go back to getting the accolades and appreciation it deserves. There are a couple of things that need fixing in a sequel, but that is the most obvious, glaring omission that will hang over any Sonic Kart racer from now on. How does it stack up against Transformed? 

 

 

 

[Scritch the Cat]

On 7/6/2020 at 10:56 AM, Sega DogTagz said:

TSR's biggest hurdle is that it is not ASRT-2. That game set the bar so devilishly high, that any departure from the formula was going to look like a step backward. I feel like if they go the safe route and drop a TSR-T on our heads, Sumo will be back in the fastline and the series will go back to getting the accolades and appreciation it deserves. There are a couple of things that need fixing in a sequel, but that is the most obvious, glaring omission that will hang over any Sonic Kart racer from now on. How does it stack up against Transformed? 

 

 

 

We could actually apply that standard to a lot of the series.  
 

Much has been made—sometimes by those looking to defend SEGA—of how divided the Sonic fanbase is, over the notion of what the series “should” do.  How, ask people who point this out, is Sonic Team to make anything successful when there isn’t consensus on what success is?  

What this rhetoric misses, though, is that there’s a more objective way to judge what Sonic should do—by looking at what it did in the past, especially when it was more successful.  This turns up quite a lot of things they could shoot for, as well as a long list of failures to hit such targets.  They used to have good momentum physics and games built around them, then that lapsed in Sonic Adventure and never came back.  Sonic 06 was the Sonic Adventure formula, redone on hardware much better than the Dreamcast, with far less content, and it still managed to be broken and have unforgivably bad loading times.  Games since have mostly managed to avoid that game’s technical failings, but only by lowering their aims.  Sonic games used to have Tails and Knuckles playable with gameplay not far from Sonic’s, then this was dropped from Sonic 4: Episode I, and (almost) never brought back.  

Team Sonic Racing is just the latest instance of Sonic games being underwhelming.  It speaks to what seems to be SEGA’s desire to make Sonic omnipresent rather than impressive.  The brand’s reputation has certainly been much lower, but that so much of its hype now seems to just be in the form of callbacks (usually not returns) to better days, says a lot.

[DaMan]

Now that I think about it. Book was said to be the next O6 but while that game is worse than O6.

 

I think that game didn’t even make half the impact O6 did. It was still a pretty big impact but like from most of he people I hear/ watch they honestly seem to completely forget it.

[Scritch the Cat]

“Book”?  Was that an autocorrect?

[Styx_Linoone]

TSR's biggest problem was it's minuscule character roster compared to Crash Team Racing and especially ASRT: Transformed. Iizuka's focus was on team-based gameplay rather than balance quantity and quality to a point where even the game would be deemed passable over Sonic Drift and R. If he could've let Sumo take the delayed time of 5-8 months during the last quarter of 2018 into 2019 to make things rights, like adding more to the roster, then I would have loved the game more.

I agree, alot of people seemed to have lost interest over the fandom because of the increasing game announcement drought. We waited over 6 months for something new only to have 30 minutes of Catherine: Full Body shoved into our faces when it was appropriate to show us at least a teaser. But I get it, the Japanese citizens are in quarantine like the rest of us due to covid-19, and SEGA's making the right decision in that regard to delay everything and make show their employers stay safe. I'm not saying it's not a matter of 'when' they will show us something, it's a matter of 'how' it's going to be shown.

[azoo]

TSR's a game that wasn't very interesting when compared to surrounding competition, Sonic's movie was only mass-praised due to lowered expectations, Forces was hardly a game, Boom was the last obnoxious thing left in the series' mouth as far as television goes and all anyone has chewed on for three years now has been grind/microtransaction riddled mobile games. So honestly, I get it completely why some people will feel completely uninterested in Sonic these days, because these same things have put me in a similar boat.

It's not all bad, though.

Of course, Mania happened and so have the IDW comics. Both of those alongside the online shorts + the Channel illustrations have made for a refreshingly good side of Sonic content, with a finger pointing in a direction towards a generally much better series. The only question is will future Sonic games and general content reflect these better things or be more insufferable like the other stuff? 

I guess we'll see whenever they decide to reveal that game. It's been 4 months since they delayed their stuff; and more than fair since COVID and all that changed the schedule by quite a bit. Still though, hopefully something sooner than later.

[Fish964]

I myself have been a die-hard Sonic fan for as long as I can remember, and whilst I can admit that the 'golden ere' of the franchise is long behind at this point, I certainly wouldn't say that my faith is lost. Sonic Mania (2017) was a huge return-to-form for the blue blue, and the only Sonic game released in the last 12 years that I purchased and sat down with.

I don't consider the movie to be the big be-all-end-all to Sonic's image that I initally thought it would be. We live in a vastly different world than we did 20-30 odd years ago. The youth of today demand, or at least are expecting of, a certain type of media. The technology that presents this media is also thousand of miles from what it once was.

To get back on topic, I simply feel that Sonic, much like many other beloved franchises from the 90s/00s has attempted (and arguably failed?) to adapt and keep up with the times. Sonic Mania withstanding, 'classic' feeling Sonic games are from my perspective, pretty much a thing of the past. Imagine releasing a game like Sonic Heroes (2003) nowadays, and imagine how such a style of game would be constructing to fit into the modern era of gaming. Or my guilty pleasure: Shadow the Hedgehog (2005). Such a game simply could not fit into what I feel is a very 'safe' aura of children's media in the present day. This opinion I have extends far beyond the Sonic franchise. I feel that games/movie/shows simply do not take risks or attempt to push boundaries in terms of content these days. I could talk for days about how much I DESPISE how fluffy, soft and generically Ratchet & Clank is presented nowadays...

Anyway, I do hope Sonic finds his feet again, we are sorely lacking a Sonic Adventure 3, or fully remakes/re-imaginings of the first two in the series. But we must face that Sonic, and games in general will never be what they were. Its unrealistic to reject the reality that things change all the time in media.

[Wraith]

I felt this burnout back in like 2016 but in between the comic, the shorts and the Sonic Team artwork I've been getting a pretty steady feed of content I'm enjoying a lot. Not ideal but we're definitely pretty far removed from the years when the comic was dead and the future of the main games was less certain. I'm pretty alright with being a Sonic fan at the moment. 

It would be nice if a quality main game was a sure thing in 2021 but I've braced myself for them to get it wrong or management to overreach on the project too. It's a complete coin toss on whether or not it's gonna be a game I'm interested in but I've decided not to dwell on it too much and take it as it comes. 

[Multikaris]

On 7/6/2020 at 10:56 AM, Sega DogTagz said:

TSR's biggest hurdle is that it is not ASRT-2. That game set the bar so devilishly high, that any departure from the formula was going to look like a step backward. I feel like if they go the safe route and drop a TSR-T on our heads, Sumo will be back in the fastline and the series will go back to getting the accolades and appreciation it deserves. There are a couple of things that need fixing in a sequel, but that is the most obvious, glaring omission that will hang over any Sonic Kart racer from now on. How does it stack up against Transformed? 

 

 

 

TSR was following up on TWO things; first as Sumo’s new Sega racer to follow up Transformed, and also as the newest Sonic racer (With a story, to boot!) to follow up Free Riders. It failed on both accounts. The story was nowhere near as good as any of the Riders games (even Free Riders, for what it’s worth, had the characters’ prescence explained logically compared to TSR, and didn’t open up weird plot holes with its new minor characters. Silver and Blaze were not part of the story, and dead characters weren’t included. In TSR, everyone has to be shoved into the story, even Zavok.), with Cream's unexplained absence, awkward dialogue, and a forgettable premise.

[Scritch the Cat]

While announcements being delayed due to the pandemic is understandable and forgivable, well before it hit SEGA had said Sonic Team essentially closed, and Takeshi Iizuka moved to the USA to build a new team.  Some might consider that a good thing, as America is where most passionate Sonic fans live, and many would love to work in the series.  But SEGA of America also downsized some years back, so without a good budget allocated to invest in whatever is the next Sonic game, a whole country full of passionate fans only matters so much.  Expect it to keep leaning on callbacks to past successes, rather than recreate them.

[iambitter21]

19 hours ago, azoo said:

Sonic's movie was only mass-praised due to lowered expectations

not true for me, my expectations weren't really low at the time, I didn't mind the old design but I was happy to get it redesigned nonetheless. you wanna know why I actually praised it? it was a nice movie, a good movie, a GREAT movie! one of the best videogame adaptations of all time, one for the history books of videogame adaptations to this day! it has some flaws here and there, the scene with sonic getting mad at tom was uncalled for the most, and I'd be lying if I said sonic flossing wasn't cringe, but at the end of the day... this movie, just rocks!

[Scritch the Cat]

Maybe we didn’t “lower” our expectations, but we set them according to the Sonic movie being the umpteenth adaptation that uses the “iconic cartoon character interacts with otherwise live-action characters and world” formula.  I suppose it helps that with where the Sonic games’ plots were—either too simple for a film plot, or too loaded with backstory—it was the easiest formula to use.  So they took that highly  trod-on route, and as it happened, the cast and script made it more than funny enough to be worth a watch.  I also commend them for really creative use of Sonic’s powers for some funny stuff.

But even conceding that it would need to avoid the baggage of Sonic’s expanded plot to work as an intro film, there’s still a lot they could have done with the brand that I feel they miss doing.  I still resent that the whole plot they made hangs from a made-up addition to Sonic’s powers, instead of a more faithful adaptation of the game scenario where Robotnik has ambitions that affect lots of people, and Sonic arises to stop him—especially since environmental degradation and the risks posed  by Big Tech are still relevant issues.  They could have made Sonic a rather smart movie while staying faithful.

Instead, it seems they altered things so they could make an un-menacing, sweet movie.  Movie Sonic is lovable, but that’s at least partially because his backstory and motives were written to be relatable to almost anyone.  If he was a character made from scratch, that would be fine.  That he’s Sonic, a character originally conceived to be a bit edgy and willing to stand up to established powers, means he’s noticeably “off”.

I also feel that the movie lacks in action.  Most of Sonic’s action scenes are in one of two bad extremes; either they use bullet-time, which really only works for comedy (maybe that’s subjective, but they sure never used it for anything else), or they just render the action as a blur, which leaves what’s actually happening totally vague.  The part they got more right was the chase scene, but it was far too short.

So are we enjoying the Sonic movie due to lowered expectations?  Maybe not.  But many of us are enjoying it on its own merits, not on how good of a Sonic adaptation it is.  Not that an adaptation should lack its own merits, but this could have been a better adaptation and still had them.

[iambitter21]

13 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

So are we enjoying the Sonic movie due to lowered expectations?  Maybe not.  But many of us are enjoying it on its own merits, not on how good of a Sonic adaptation it is.  Not that an adaptation should lack its own merits, but this could have been a better adaptation and still had them.

it's a good thing the sequel is coming out soon, I hope they listen to the fans, and what they want: tails and sonic say goodbye to tom and the pretzel lady (I forgot her name) as they head back to their world to stop whatever Eggman is gonna do to it, Longclaw being alive, knuckles fighting and then teaming up with sonic & tails to stop Eggman, and Eggman building a death egg meant to eradicate sonic's world. looking at how successful listening to the fans did for the first movie, they're smart enough to do so. (don't make the joke, I know you'll do it.)

[BadBehavior]

The Babylon's Fall twitter page recently put out a statement saying to the effect of "We're still working on it, we'll have more to show later".

Can't Sonic Team/Sega do something like this? So the people waiting and getting impatient can calm down and so the people responding to those people don't screech "DoN't RuSh ThEm! Do YoU wAnT aNoThEr SoNiC 06!?"

Cos 06 2 doesn't sound so bad at this point.

[Scritch the Cat]

8 hours ago, BadBehavior said:

The Babylon's Fall twitter page recently put out a statement saying to the effect of "We're still working on it, we'll have more to show later".

Can't Sonic Team/Sega do something like this? So the people waiting and getting impatient can calm down and so the people responding to those people don't screech "DoN't RuSh ThEm! Do YoU wAnT aNoThEr SoNiC 06!?"

Cos 06 2 doesn't sound so bad at this point.

Maybe, and they sort of have, but how is that relevant to what’s being said here?  I don’t think anyone is all that impatient, given the circumstances, and it’s not like other esteemed series, such as Zelda, don’t go through these dry spells while a developer works on things—even when there’s not a pandemic.  

I think the difference here is that some other franchises don’t have bad games to live down, so releasing a new, good game, is a matter of setting Sonic to rights.  The point of this thread is that many people don’t expect them to accomplish that.  Skepticism doesn’t necessarily breed impatience, as why would I be impatient for the arrival of something I don’t really expect to love?

[batson]

Sonic Forces destroyed my faith in the main series more than any other game in recent times. The reason for this is that it proved that Sonic Team are able to screw up even their tried-and-tested formula. The daytime stages in Unleashed created a new template for the mainline Sonic games, and up untill Forces they've done a good job with it. The big failures of recent years have been when they've experimented with new styles, such as Lost World, which is somewhat forgivable. But the fact that they went and botched Forces, a game featuring a style that they've had a good grip on before, really shows that that we can expect nothing of Sonic Team, absolutely nothing. It's sad, in the true sense of the word.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

We practically said the same thing after Sonic 06 bombed right after the poor critical reception of ShTH. Then Unleashed turned things around with its daytime gameplay, which while consisting half of the game was still considered a massive improvement compared to the game before. Then after that came Colors and Generations.

If there’s anything to be learned from this, it’s that this franchise has been through worse—despite how Forces did, it still doesn’t come anywhere near close to being as bad as Sonic 06. It had a lot of lazily made moments and wasn’t great, and we can insult it to hell and back on how stale it was for basically trying to be a “Generations 2.0” in all but name and hardly doing fuck all beyond the Rookie’s gameplay, but while it isn’t something to be praised it’s still a far cry from being an absolute travesty.

Believe me when I say, things aren’t as bad as they seem. Stale and boring, yes. But again, not as big a travesty as the past before it was.

And that’s without getting into how big a piece of shit this fandom was back then as well, despite some bad habits still sticking around when people should know better.

[batson]

The thing is, I genuinly thought that the days of 06 were behind us, in other words the days where Sonic Team would royally screw up a formula that they've previously mastered.

Just to clarify though, I'm not saying that Forces is anywhere near as bad as 06.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, batson said:

The thing is, I genuinly thought that the days of 06 were behind us, in other words the days where Sonic Team would royally screw up a formula that they've previously mastered.

Just to clarify though, I'm not saying that Forces is anywhere near as bad as 06.

It kinda is behind us. Now they have a new problem—stagnation.

[batson]

Forces isn't a mere case of stagnation though. It's a case of them doing something bad that they've previously been able to do good. And that's downright embarassing.

[Empire88]

This isn't in relation to what anyone else posted, but has anyone else noticed that recently there has been a noticeable increase of fans just blindly defending Sega/ST and won't let people voice their dissatisfaction with something? (Like on other spaces like Reddit, Twitter etc).

Like if you like a game, then all power to you. You have the right to enjoy it. But there almost seems to be this movement to shut down any constructive criticism. There is this whole thing where people say  "Haha Forces bad" in response to a legitimate critic.

It starts to make me frustrated sometimes because I feel like some Sonic fans can get really complacent at times and are willing to lower their standards because they see any criticism of a game as an attack. It feels like it is hard to have a mature conversation.