The current tone of the Sonic game series

[JaidynReiman]

SA2 is cheesy and SA1 isn't? SA2 I thought had some pretty good dialog. Maybe some parts were cheesy... but Sonic Adventure was far, far worse.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Why not a similar Ratchet and Clank approach. It combines the humor and cartooniness of the series along with that of more serious elements such as racial cleansing (of organics), enslavement, etc.

With the silliest things ever imagined for a sci-fi series, such as the groovitron, along with being enslaved and forced to fight for your life in a Dreadzone match, I think this is a good role series for Sonic to look up to and emulate from.

And they did a good job with a darker plot when it came to Dreadlock, without losing the series touch.

Plus, the settings of the series are both cool and edgy, yet cartoony and silly. For a Sonic game to do that will be great. People get a taste of both sides and learn to appreciate what they originally oppose since they're both being handled with care to not overpower each other.

Sonic's world is already unreal as it is. You have a realistic city, real world inspired cities and villages, wacky settings such as Hill Top Zone, futuristic places, etc. It wouldn't be two out of touch if he were to work up on what he has.

SA2 is cheesy and SA1 isn't? SA2 I thought had some pretty good dialog. Maybe some parts were cheesy... but Sonic Adventure was far, far worse.

Look out, you're gonna crash, AHH. *mouth keeps moving*

Edited September 18, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[redmenace]

About SA, there's a huge difference between the english dialogue and the japanese. For instance, Sonic never baits Eggman with insults the first time they meet, so half of the cheesiness on that scene is cut in half. I'd like to have a proper translated script of the japanese dialogue, but I never found one.

[jeremycarrier]

Why not a similar Ratchet and Clank approach. It combines the humor and cartooniness of the series along with that of more serious elements such as racial cleansing (of organics), enslavement, etc.

With the silliest things ever imagined for a sci-fi series, such as the groovitron, along with being enslaved and forced to fight for your life in a Dreadzone match, I think this is a good role series for Sonic to look up to and emulate from.

And they did a good job with a darker plot when it came to Dreadlock, without losing the series touch.

Plus, the settings of the series are both cool and edgy, yet cartoony and silly. For a Sonic game to do that will be great. People get a taste of both sides and learn to appreciate what they originally oppose since they're both being handled with care to not overpower each other.

Whenever this topics come up, I always look at Ratchet and Clank as the prime example of what the Sonic series could be. Its still PG-rated, with lots of cartoony, furry characters, but the scrip is witty, the characters have real personality traits, and the story is fun to keep up with.

I would love to see Sonic and the gang actually be funny for the first time, instead of awkward cinematics, painfully on the nose storytelling, and cheesy goofball one-liners.

[Lava89]

SA2 is cheesy and SA1 isn't? SA2 I thought had some pretty good dialog. Maybe some parts were cheesy... but Sonic Adventure was far, far worse.

SA never had quotes like "What you see is what you get, just a guy who loves adventure. I'm Sonic the Hedgehog!", "Where the World is as cool and blue as me!". Sonic accusing Shadow of being a "faker", or Tails talking about teamwork at the very end and Robotnik actually agreeing with him? I think also that one of my biggest beefs with the dialogue in SA2 was the vast character changes (softening Knuckles and Robotnik, Sonic's cheesy obsession with himself), plus Sonic's and Shadow's tiny mouths didn't help much (the mouths didn't really affect the dialogue itself, but it also didn't help the presentation either).

I admit the dialogue was a bit smoother in SA2, and anytime Sonic showed emotion was a bit forced in SA1. But the characters were closer to their personalities from the original games, in my opinion.

I would love to see Sonic and the gang actually be funny for the first time, instead of awkward cinematics, painfully on the nose storytelling, and cheesy goofball one-liners.

I completely agree!

Edited September 18, 2009 by Lava89

[Phos]

SA never had quotes like "What you see is what you get, just a guy who loves adventure. I'm Sonic the Hedgehog!", "Where the World is as cool and blue as me!". Sonic accusing Shadow of being a "faker", or Tails talking about teamwork at the very end and Robotnik actually agreeing with him? I think also that one of my biggest beefs with the dialogue in SA2 was the vast character changes (softening Knuckles and Robotnik, Sonic's cheesy obsession with himself), plus Sonic's and Shadow's tiny mouths didn't help much (the mouths didn't really affect the dialogue itself, but it also didn't help the presentation either).

I admit the dialogue was a bit smoother in SA2, and anytime Sonic showed emotion was a bit forced in SA1. But the characters were closer to their personalities from the original games, in my opinion.

I don't think you can even say that much for SA 2, remember the whole "I'll use you- Chaos Control!" deal?

I wouldn't call SA 1's dialog particularly good, but it was much less cheesy than SA 2's.

I would actually like for the games to funny, but I Don't think that Ratchet and Clank's style of humor meshes with Sonic's world, though perhaps I'm being more rigid in this case than those who suggest it are implying.

I sometimes wish The Brothers Chaps would write for Sonic.

[Lava89]

Yeah I think if they returned Sonic to his original self where he didn't try to be "cool", but instead had attitude, especially toward Robotnik. That's what I especially liked about the early-early Archie comics, and AoStH. I think they could mine alot of material with Sonic getting snarkly with the frustrated Robotnik. I mean, I would love to see Sonic call his nemesis "Ro-Butt-nik". I think for the game they could really develop Sonic humor in their own way, unique from the early comics and TV shows.

Another example of something cool humor wise was in SA1 when Tails said, when talking about Sonic, "I hate it when he doesn't listen to me". I mean he totally broke the fourth wall (unless he was talking to himself). It wasn't anything spectacular or incredibly funny but it showed promise of where they could take Sonic humor. I'm not sure where they could really take Tails, but they really should look for humor that they can use and make it fit with the style of the games.

[Scarlet2106]

I prefer stupid comic-book (ANIMAL-KIDNAPPING CONSPIRACY, MECHANISED TIME-TRAVEL PLANET, DEATH STAR RIPOFF, DEATH STAR RIPOFF MARK II and the SUPER EMERALDS, DA MASTUH EMERUW', ANGRY MUTATED CHAO and OLD FORGOTTEN SOCIETIES, CONFUSED GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, EVIL TWINS AND GIANT SPACE-STATION LIZARDS, ANGRY ROBOT HEDGEHOG KIDNAPS FAT MAN, ALIENS AND CLONES AND CONSPIRACIES, THIS IS SO FUCKING STUPID AND I LOVE IT) stories to happy-go-lucky I'm-frolicking-with-my-new-best-friend-oh-darn-the-emeralds-need-to-be-restored-but-I-don't-really-know-why-AROUND-THE-WORLD-HAPPY-PIXAR-ADVENTURE-TIME stories. But I don't really care, to be honest. If they do a story I'm interested in, great. If they don't (a la Unleashed, SatSR and from the looks of it, SatBK), then I can just ignore it and get on with the game proper. It's not something to get bent out of shape with, especially when it's always been shifting in terms of style.

[redmenace]

Yeah I think if they returned Sonic to his original self where he didn't try to be "cool", but instead had attitude, especially toward Robotnik. That's what I especially liked about the early-early Archie comics, and AoStH. I think they could mine alot of material with Sonic getting snarkly with the frustrated Robotnik. I mean, I would love to see Sonic call his nemesis "Ro-Butt-nik". I think for the game they could really develop Sonic humor in their own way, unique from the early comics and TV shows.

Another example of something cool humor wise was in SA1 when Tails said, when talking about Sonic, "I hate it when he doesn't listen to me". I mean he totally broke the fourth wall (unless he was talking to himself). It wasn't anything spectacular or incredibly funny but it showed promise of where they could take Sonic humor. I'm not sure where they could really take Tails, but they really should look for humor that they can use and make it fit with the style of the games.

The original attitude like you're saying of Sonic in the games did not exist. So he couldn't go back to his original self because he was never like that. Thankfully, otherwise besides trying too hard we'd have him trying too hard and be ridiculous at the same time. Ro-butt-nik? That was never funny in the first place. Well, why not call him fat then, it sure is the same, lack of polish and everything. You're so fat your mother had to call a buldozer to take her to the maternity. Is this funny? No. I do agree about that Tails reference, especially because of the face Sonic does.

Edited September 19, 2009 by redmenace

[Lava89]

The original attitude like you're saying of Sonic in the games did not exist. So he couldn't go back to his original self because he was never like that. Thankfully, otherwise besides trying too hard we'd have him trying too hard and be ridiculous at the same time. Ro-butt-nik? That was never funny in the first place. Well, why not call him fat then, it sure is the same, lack of polish and everything. You're so fat your mother had to call a buldozer to take her to the maternity. Is this funny? No. I do agree about that Tails reference, especially because of the face Sonic does.

Original self as in SA1, comics and TV show. Sorry, I should've specified.

As for the Robuttnink line? I feel you're comparison to the "yo momma" jokes doesn't work, it was merely a nickname he gave Robotnik. I wasn't implying that in the middle of a boss fight they'd start having a full on trash talking contest.

As for Sonic's attitude being ridiculous and forced? Not if you do it right. Some of the newer games try too hard and get pretty ridiculous already. We just need some decent writing next time.

But I am curious as to what your suggestions would be to bring more humor into the Sonic franchise? And I'm not being sarcastic.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Lava89

[redmenace]

Original self as in SA1, comics and TV show. Sorry, I should've specified.

As for the Robuttnink line? I feel you're comparison to the "yo momma" jokes doesn't work, it was merely a nickname he gave Robotnik. I wasn't implying that in the middle of a boss fight they'd start having a full on trash talking contest.

As for Sonic's attitude being ridiculous and forced? Not if you do it right. Some of the newer games try too hard and get pretty ridiculous already. We just need some decent writing next time.

But I am curious as to what your suggestions would be to bring more humor into the Sonic franchise? And I'm not being sarcastic.

SA was never alike the comics or TV show. He never went around making word puns or screaming insults like there was no tommorow. The only insult was the "eggman" one, which isn't one to begin with, since we know that Ronotnik is rather proud of having the shape he has. 'I hate that Eggman' hardly qualifies as attitude either. Insults don't qualify as attitude, just tackiness and the lack of wittiness.

Why do you think Sonic calls him that in the first place? Because he's an arse and the arse is so big because he's fat. Either way, they're alike mom jokes. Way too used and way too "trying too hard". Attitude isn't just cracking jokes about the humungous shape of Robotnik. We already know he's fat, we've been see him as so since 1991. I'm not fat but suppose the kid playing the game is fat. Nice way to get a message across, fat is evil. It's just like making villains out humans and technology when it's a human playing a videogame in the first place.

I'm not a comediant nor a writer, but even I know that 3rd grade jokes isn't what it should be called funny. Something alike the Sonic OVA? That's something that would be funny. Minus the boob grab of course, that's too shocking for the other side of the pond.

[Badnik Zero]

^ I'm pretty sure Sonic was always meant to have attitude. Maybe not a '90s Bart Simpson kind of thing, which I think Sonic eventually became associated with, but he's certainly got something. He's in the OVA with loads of snarkiness. He was created to be the sleek and sassy alternative to Mario, cool is his whole game. And if you think cool doesn't mean attitude, I'd say no. Cool is an attitude in itself. When Sonic pops out of the logo on the title screen, with that smirk and the wagging finger, that's supposed to be attitude. I'm not imagining it. I agree about Ro-butt-nik though, that line never worked much for me. I think that one's part of the Bart Simpson effect.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Ezra the Badnik

[Legendary Emerald]

I think the storybook games have the tone done correctly; light hearted, but with a certain serious issue beneath the surface. In "Secret Rings" there is Sharah's unidentified relationship with Erazor Gjin, and of course Merlina's desire for a Utopian society free from the laws of nature. The writing in both games wasn't perfect, but there were a handful of good lines and overall the tales were told well.

Were Sonic Unleashed failed was by having not a single writer who knew how to write humor. When I heard Chip was the embodiment of random humor itself, I became excited despite the character's awkward design. Then I found out that Chip wasn't funny at all, and was positively sad in his attempts to lighten an already light mood. Hated his character, and as a result he ruined most of the story. What wasn't ruined by him was corrupted by the whole were hog and the Light Gaia v.s. Dark Gaia bit. Worst final boss battle since Sonic 2006, I might add.

Either make the Sonic games funny with serious underpinnings, or mostly serious like Sonic Adventure 2 & Sonic 2006. Don't go almost completely light hearted, or you'll fail like Sonic Heroes and Sonic Unleashed did. But for the love of all that is holy, don't go overboard with the seriousness and turn out another shit-fest that was Shadow's plot!

Also, Sonic stills needs to get his personality nailed down, in my opinion. He's not consistant enough. I liked him best in Sonic Adventure 2, the OVA, and SatAM, personally. The OVA personality would work wonders for the Sonic games' humor, but even I'll admit that SatAM style just wouldn't work in a Sonic game these days.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Legendary Emerald

[Lava89]

I'm not a comediant nor a writer, but even I know that 3rd grade jokes isn't what it should be called funny.

Again, you're making a large logical error by implying that my entire suggestion for Sonic humor encompassed the "Robuttnik" insult. It was merely a reference back to Sonic's snarky days (though significantly less snarky then he could've been). And even then I called for the games to have their own humor outside of the comics and TV shows, simply because they are all their own entities and we really haven't see Sonic humor go as far as it could, whether it's comics or TV shows.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Lava89

[redmenace]

^ I'm pretty sure Sonic was always meant to have attitude. Maybe not a '90s Bart Simpson kind of thing, which I think Sonic eventually became associated with, but he's certainly got something. He's in the OVA with loads of snarkiness. He was created to be the sleek and sassy alternative to Mario, cool is his whole game. And if you think cool doesn't mean attitude, I'd say no. Cool is an attitude in itself. When Sonic pops out of the logo on the title screen, with that smirk and the wagging finger, that's supposed to be attitude. I'm not imagining it. I agree about Ro-butt-nik though, that line never worked much for me. I think that one's part of the Bart Simpson effect.

Yes this, maybe I'm not expressing myself very well. I like him cool. I like his waggle finger as well. I like him standing there and tapping his foot impatiently as he stares at the player annoyed, I like the way he says "I'm outta here" and gives the player a game over in Sonic CD (a lot actually). But none of that is this cheesy Robutnik thing, gratuitous insulting and associates so common in the cartoons and comics. That's not attitude to me. Sure some of it could be explored, but the majority just comes out wrong and forced. I liked AOSTH, many of those jokes and slapstick humour could be used but fat jokes and butt-nick isn't what I'd like to see (never saw in any of the major games either).

Again, you're making a large logical error by implying that my entire suggestion for Sonic humor encompassed the "Robuttnik" insult. It was merely a reference back to Sonic's snarky days (though significantly less snarky then he could've been). And even then I called for the games to have their own humor outside of the comics and TV shows, simply because they are all their own entities and we really haven't see Sonic humor go as far as it could, whether it's comics or TV shows.

Robutnik to me isn't snarky, it's just sad. I know it's just an example though, but it reflects very well what category it falls in, that's why I used it so much, don't take it the wrong way. Attitude to me is different than that, that's all. It doesn't involve stupid jokes like that. It has more... refinement. I have no intention to sound pedantic with that word, but I can't describe it well. All I know is buttnick and the majority of the jokes that are associated with that "attitude" of Sonic aren't what his attitude should be since it's not funny outside of pre-school.

Edited September 19, 2009 by redmenace

[Diogenes]

I'd say somewhere between SA and Unleashed is the sort of tone I'd like to see. Both were able to tell a serious story without getting too caught up in it to be fun and funny. Too many of the recent games try too hard to build up an epic, moving story, and between the sort of series this is and not having the writing skill to back it up, it just collapses in on itself. And as much as I love the Genesis games I don't want them to limit the story to just that; I like seeing the characters interact with each other and being able to feel the direct pressure of the story instead of just a vague justification to do things.

Another thing, more a vague overall tone than just the story...there aren't many games in the series that make me feel wonder and awe, and that's disappointing. This is a series filled with characters with amazing superpowers traveling through amazing places, but even the good games rarely make me feel it.

[Lava89]

I've been thinking lately about the humor that was contained in the comics and shows. In SatAM Sonic was essentially the punk kid. In AoStH he almost had a bugs bunny character about him; fooling the bad guys and always being in control. Then in the early comics he was more like SatAM (from what I remember).

However I think what is really missing from Sonic's personality is sarcasm. And I don't mean the "I'm in a bad mood" type, but more where the person is getting a point across under the subtlety of humor. I think that would collaborate more into the attitude image than most of the humor attempted in the outlets of Sonic. And the humor could be as dry as needed.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Lava89

[redmenace]

However I think what is really missing from Sonic's personality is sarcasm. And I don't mean the "I'm in a bad mood" type, but more where the person is getting a point across under the subtlety of humor. I think that would collaborate more into the attitude image than most of the humor attempted in the outlets of Sonic. And the humor could be as dry as needed.

Yes, I like sarcasm as well. STC Sonic had a lot of it, he was such an arse to everybody, maybe too much but still, a good foundation.

[KirbyGamer91]

For me, I'd say the Sonic games should be light, but with some slightly darker elements occasionally. Like Sonic Unleashed for example, that game had some light humor, yet it was serious when it had too be (Near the end before fighting Perfect Dark Gaia in particular). I wouldn't want darkness to be of Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Next Gen caliber, as those weren't very well written (To me at least).

[Blazey Firekitty]

I found quite a few problems with the story, the first being Chip's amnesia. Most of the time, it's believed that the cause of it was that Sonic fell on him. However, this was retconned as we later learn that his condition was due to being woken up too early. But if Chip had amnesia due to his early awakening, how did he manage to remember that he could've conjured a barrier that would've saved Sonic's life? Secondly, why didn't the trauma apparently caused by Sonic do anything significant to his memory? If anything, it should have knocked him back to senses instead of merely giving him yet another case of amnesia of only the past few seconds.

(I've been told that Sonic's impending doom could have caused a slight relapse in Chip, but it seems way too convenient. If anything, without prior knowledge that you could stop an object hurtling from space, a more natural reaction would have been to get out of the object's general area.)

Then there's the fact that the majority of storytelling was just completely dropped altogether. Between Chun-Nan and Adabat, there are no cutscenes detailing Sonic and Chip's journey minus openings to irrelevant boss fights and temple restorations. This means that the areas that we visit between these points feel tacked on beyond the travel angle, Chip's touching proclamation about their trip loses depth, and the opportunity for any development on his character as well as Sonic's internal dealing with the Werehog form was wasted. The loss is especially felt in the latter as the intentional reversal of Sonic's super powers at the hands of Eggman, things he takes significant pride in, should've had a more profound effect on him, and it was something I was hoping to see. But as it stands, the Amy cutscene and unlockable shorts are just cockteases.

A few other parts of the story that are actually there only provide me with questions: What was the significance of the Chun-Nan phoenix to the overall plot? Why was Chip scared to go into the Adabat temple? What in the world was speaking to him when he was sucked through the wall and into that limbo? In fact, what happened to activate such blatant dues ex machina in the first place? Who at Sonic Team thought that it was a good idea to make Chip into a prehistoric Gundam when the entire point of his personality and appearance was to be in direct contrast to Dark Gaia as Sonic is to his Werehog form?

All in all, I feel the story was badly done. Probably not as badly done as Sonic '06, but regardless it was an objective letdown, especially when Sonic Team claimed inspiration from Pixar.

(Ironically enough, I actually do like the story, at least what little of it there is. The dialogue is more tolerable from past games and sometimes even funny, Sonic and Chip's friendship had a sentimentality to it that was refreshing and not too cheesy, Chip's background shenanigans are spectacular, and animation-wise, both in-game and CGI cutscenes are excellently done. It's a fun little thing to watch. )

Oh, okay, I see what you're getting at now.

I feel like what you're saying is that they had a pretty good basic story, but that it wound up getting derailed either by unexplained inconsistencies, or by wasted potential.

A lot of the inconsistency seems to have been caused by the writers not planning properly on how to transition from using Chip as a comedic character to using him as a somewhat more serious one. Thus begging questions like "What was the point of bonking Chip on the head if his amnesia was due to screwed up magical sleep pattents," "Why is Chip acting so weird at the Adabat Temple," and "Why ruin the David vs. Goliath theme by suiting Chip up in a giant mecha?"

The Phoenix in Chun-Nan completely baffles me, though. I don't see what purpose that served beyond giving Chip another chance to do his chocolate offering gag.

While I liked Sonic's awkwardness in Werehog form and his friendship with Chip that was, as you pointed out, relatively subtle, I also agree that the game should have spent more time expanding on these emotional elements. The strange lack of significant cutscenes in the middle didn't help things at all.

I feel it may have helped to expand Tails and Amy's role in the plot. While the Werehog form and Chip represented Sonic being out of his element, Tails and Amy were representative of the relative normality of Sonic's daily life, and could have helped make more of a clear contrast between familiar and unfamiliar elements in the game.

[Nepenthe]

A lot of the inconsistency seems to have been caused by the writers not planning properly on how to transition from using Chip as a comedic character to using him as a somewhat more serious one.

I think that could have easily been served with short cutscenes detailing Chip having flashbacks to prior encounters with Dark Gaia. It would have been a good way to introduce the viewer to the prospect that Chip could credibly have a serious side to him without sacrificing his comedic nature in other situations. It also would've rounded him off better and lent itself to doing away with the "woken up too soon" explanation altogether.

I feel it may have helped to expand Tails and Amy's role in the plot. While the Werehog form and Chip represented Sonic being out of his element, Tails and Amy were representative of the relative normality of Sonic's daily life, and could have helped make more of a clear contrast between familiar and unfamiliar elements in the game.

I actually never looked at the presence of Tails and Amy in that light before. That's quite the observation, and one I agree with. x3;; It would've definitely helped for Tails to have a bigger presence, if for no other reason than he's the one even ferrying Sonic in the first place and thus should logically be wherever he is at all times. It also could have potentially provided a nice dynamic and illuminated the value of both Tails and Chip as Sonic's best friends as both would naturally have differing views about Sonic's new form, and subsequently different ways of helping him deal with it.

I'm quite neutral to Amy following them around as I see no underlying reason for her to have done so, but I think at least she should've had bigger reservations with Sonic's new form. She mediates for a second but is back to her adoring ways too quickly, which is cute and a great show of tolerance, but at the same time a little concerning. There was no real thought to it; She deduced that her boyfriend had a new hairdo, shrugged it off, and went to hang around with Professor Pickle for the rest of the night (Isn't that quite the suggestive statement?).

Speaking of him, why in the world did he even travel to Shamar in the first place? I understand he has a second lab there, but what was wrong with the one in Spagonia?

[goodone121]

Speaking of his workplaces, why were they called labs if they seemed more like offices?

About Chip's actions in Adabat, he was reminded of his true mission there. He seemed to have prepard the void himself (IIRC, it was his own voice he heard), so he may have remembered subconsciously , but, also subconsciously, didn't want to bring it to conscious memory. Note how distraught he seemed immediately afterwards (he tried to fly off, so it would be safe to assume he had, or would soon be having, thoughts of suicide. Maybe by drowning himself once he was out of eyesight.)

I will admit this explanation raises a different question-why did he create the void in the first place?

Edited September 20, 2009 by goodone121

[Diogenes]

The way I see it, the Gaias are made of light/positive and dark/negative chaos energy, and their "sleep" is the time it takes for enough energy to build up again after they exhaust it destroying/rebuilding the world. So Chip was the light energy that had built up since the last apocalypse, released thanks to Eggman's laser fuckery and taking on the physical form of Light Gaia, though incomplete. The talking ball of light that restored his memory was the energy built up over the course of the game, as Sonic and Chip restored the emeralds and helped people. Chip "is" Light Gaia, but he's also the Chip that spent time traveling the world with Sonic.

So I don't think Chip had any hand in creating the "void". I believe it's just where Light Gaia "rests"; it may have been there from the start, or maybe it was made by a previous incarnation of Light Gaia.

[Phos]

Another thing, more a vague overall tone than just the story...there aren't many games in the series that make me feel wonder and awe, and that's disappointing. This is a series filled with characters with amazing superpowers traveling through amazing places, but even the good games rarely make me feel it.

100% agree. Sky Sanctuary managed to pull this off, and it's one of the most amazing Zones in the whole franchise.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Phos

[Sankai]

Sonic's all over the fucking place. SEGA just doesn't KNOW CRAP! They keep saying that the series is geared towards children of the 10-12 age group, yet there are storylines like Shadow the Hedgehog which also to some degree include profanity.

Who knows where they're going next. Hell, they might make an M game. The series is going in no direction other than downhill.